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Obama Says He's "Fearless" in Interview; New Details in Manhunt for Escaped Convicts in New York; Debate Grows on Removing Confederate Flag from S.C. Capitol Grounds; New Details in Washington, D.C. Mansion Murders. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:30:00] DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR & FORMER PRESIDENTIAL AIDE: What the president said is he lost the thread of his story. Over time, he's been able to weave that story together and also to see slow over time, even if you can't get legislative action, to move the country towards a better, more progressive end, whether that's on more progressive economics or immigration, climate change, and continue to do that. It takes time and effort and learning to do innovative ways, like doing things like being on CNN, but also doing a podcast in a garage that reaches millions of people. It takes a lot of work and it's hard.

We weren't great at the beginning. There was more work to do now. But he's made a lot of progress. And you can see the effect in public opinion on some of the core issues that were very divisive when he came in and are broad bipartisan majorities now.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, one of the themes, you know, race and the use of the "N" word in that interview. Here's my question for you. When the White House said there was no discussion with him ahead of time whether or not he should use the word, as you know him, do you think he had any conversation with him, in an inner circle or with Michelle Obama before he did this?

PFEIFFER: I don't think so. I think -- I don't think it was premeditated. I think he was trying to make a point but did it at the spur of the moment. The way I've always worked with him and the way he works with his team now, if he was going to do anything important, he would have told the team to be prepared and know it was coming. He doesn't want the team and Josh Earnest not get caught off guard by such a thing. I believe it's something he did at the spur of the moment and it wasn't a premeditated idea. He would have run that by the team and talked to them about it.

BALDWIN: Dan Pfeiffer, thank you, Dan.

PFEIFFER: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up, more on our breaking news. Hot on the trail of the two escaped killers in Upstate New York. A source telling CNN one of the fugitives could be barefoot through difficult terrain here. We'll get a live report from the search zone, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:36:04] BALDWIN: Past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Back to our breaking news, major developments in the hunt for the fugitive killers in Upstate New York. Our law enforcement sources telling us that David Sweat and Richard Matt ran out of a cabin after being caught surprise, leaving behind some personal items.

Let me bring in Boris Sanchez, live from the staging area.

Boris, personal items such as?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A pair of boots, Brooke, among several personal items that were left behind in the cabin that was found broken into this weekend where DNA was discovered that matches Richard Matt and David Sweat. Investigators say it's possible that one of the men may be barefoot because the boots belonged to them. It's unclear if that escapee may have collected a pair of shoes or boots to replace them. If he's barefoot, he's probably having a difficult time out there in the woods. It's been raining in the Adirondack Mountains. It's probably slowing them down if one is barefoot. A source has told CNN that because of the weather the searchers have been slowing down.

Meantime, back at the Clinton Correctional Facility, I spoke to two women who work there and they say morale is low following the escape. One woman said she's glad to see the expanded law enforcement in the area, but knowing that they are on the loose, it's unnerving.

BALDWIN: Can you imagine? No. They need to catch these guys soon.

Boris Sanchez, thank you so much.

Coming up next is the tragedy in Charleston, and the growing effort to remove the Confederate flag in South Carolina. Is this a watershed moment for this country? Montel Williams is joining me on set to discuss a lot of issues. Don't miss that conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:42:23] BALDWIN: Dylann Roof walked into the Emanuel AME Church nearly a week ago with plans to start a race war. In the days following his horrific act, it's been anything but that. This shooting sparked national debates about the Confederate flag. Moments ago, the House voted to debate whether the flag should entirely be removed from the capitol. All this comes one day after Nikki Haley and U.S. Senators Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott threw their approval behind removing this flag.

Lindsey Graham, who is running for president, spoke about it this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The truth of the matter, if it had not been for this horrific killing, the flag would still be flying. This is a circumstance of where the people led the politicians. I came to conclude, after going to Charleston, that we had to act, and sooner rather than later. And God help South Carolina if we fail to achieve the goal of removing the flag.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in TV host and Marine, Montel Williams, back here to CNN.

Great to see you, my friend, thank you so much.

MONTEL WILLIAMS, TV TALK SHOW HOST: Absolutely. Get to be back on your show.

BALDWIN: Let's say the Confederate flag, hypothetically speaking, it gets removed from South Carolina. But then what? You know, you have statues -- I think of Richmond, Virginia, lots of statues there of the Confederacy. The mountains, parks, streets named after Confederate soldiers. How do you realistically eradicate symbols of the Confederacy and everything else that it represents for people?

WILLIAMS: What is so amazing about this entire thing that happened, just like in 1963, when three little girls laid --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Four.

WILLIAMS: -- it galvanized the entire nation to say enough is enough. Now we're at a place right now where we're understanding that there are certain symbols of hate that have been around used for hate. Statues are not carried around by people. Roof didn't have a statue hanging out of his hand. Roof had a flag. We know. Stop the silly conversation. We know exactly what it is that we're talking about. This rhetoric is nothing more than keeping the anger going.

BALDWIN: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: Skip the rhetoric. We know the truth. The flag is representative of -- it's been the marching symbol in front of the KKK before they burned crosses. It's been a marching symbol that they've used. Let's eradicate the flag.

The other conversation is I don't think people want to eradicate history. We don't want revisionist history. We want the truth to come out, that racism existed then and still exists now.

BALDWIN: So no need to remove street signs, statues.

WILLIAMS: No. Let's go after the emblem of hate. And we know what that stands for, different than any other statue or example. No street sign is carried down the street before a cross was burned, before a bomb was thrown. Let's stop the stupid and come together as a nation.

[14:45:07] BALDWIN: What about pop culture? When you think about pop culture and the Confederate flag, Lynyrd Skynyrd. What will they do, pixilate reruns of "The Dukes of Hazard"? Even Kanye West. What was his song? He was photographed with the Confederate flag. What was the name of the song?

WILLIAMS: No. Do we have to go back and clean up everything like that? No.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Because the whole nation doesn't sit under Kanye West. The city, the state of South Carolina sits under a flag and when the governor says we want to start the healing process, how can you heal when what is sitting in front of your face is an example of those that caused the distress to begin with.

BALDWIN: Do you think, though -- in a sense we got into this discussion during our morning meeting -- this murderer walked into a church starting a race war and in the end we're even seeing Walmart, big stores like Walmart yanking potentially the state of South Carolina. Do you think this is a watershed moment for this country?

WILLIAMS: I think it's -- it's not just this. It's the fact that when you look at the pictures across this country of the churches this past Sunday, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, every color under the sun is coming together, honestly, like 1963. America has said enough. I'll tell you what, I'm more excited and happy about looking at the generation of my children. The generation is looking at this completely different than you and I.

BALDWIN: Can they even look at the Confederate flag and have any idea what it signifies for some people?

WILLIAMS: Most are saying, I don't realize this but I don't want to have anything hateful on me. They didn't understand it. There's a difference. I think this is the wake-up call for this generation and for the future of America. And we go back to the discussion of putting soldiers on the ground, every one of them needs to be respected. So we can respect the Muslims and African-Americans and we all live where we don't have to worry about hate.

BALDWIN: I want to get to someone in uniform.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Sure.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I was just told now -- I mentioned Walmart. Amazon.com officially yanking all items with the Confederate flag. They won't be selling anything like that.

WILLIAMS: Let me ask you a question. Do we not do this with emblems of hate? Let's not ask like this is the first time around. The whole world --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: No. But this won't go away.

WILLIAMS: Just like the swastika that Amazon doesn't see --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That doesn't mean that hate is eradicated?

WILLIAMS: Correct. Correct.

BALDWIN: I hear you.

You've been very local about getting a U.S. Marine Corps veteran, Emir Hekmati, released from Iran. We know the deadline is looming in Iran. There will be a deal to release these hostages. Talk to me about what you know.

WILLIAMS: We don't know if there's a conversation going on about that but I've got to go do this. I'm not going to rest. You know, the Fourth of July is right around the corner. We'll celebrate freedom. And we have a Marine being held because he fought for his freedom. It's not because he broke the law. He put on that uniform. And we leave him behind? And then the next couple of days they are going to redefine who he is as a human being? Stop the stupid. We're going to send children to die. When we do so, they want to understand that this nation has got their back. What happened is the Iranian government has reached into the United States and said, I don't care what your lineage is or your claimed status is as a citizen of another country. If you have any lineage with us, we have the right to arrest you for treason. My family comes from Jamaica and Africa, if Zimbabwe reaches in and locks me up for wearing a uniform, I'd expect this country to come in and help me. How dare we turn our back on this. Tomorrow, the family has invited me to go along with them to Europe. I'm going to see if I can raise the bar a little bit. And this conversation -- before this conversation is over.

BALDWIN: Let's stay in touch.

WILLIAMS: Please, let's do it.

BALDWIN: Montel Williams, thank you.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: Appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:53:32] BALDWIN: We are learning new details in the murder of the Washington, D.C., couple, their son and a housekeeper, and a trail of possible clues dating back 10 years ago. Tonight, on CNN, we're going in depth on the case, from the first hours the family was held captive, the cash delivered to the house, the dramatic arrest of the man police say is responsible. A key part of this investigation, messages from the husband and wife in the hours before their deaths.

Here's our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Voice mails and text messages help piece together the family's 18 hours of hell inside the mansion.

NELITZA GUTIERREZ, FORMER SAVOPOULOS HOUSEKEEPER: I'm lucky I'm still here.

BROWN: Nelitza Gutierrez, the family's other housekeeper, was supposed to be there but her boss left her a voice mail telling her not to come to work. She played the message for us.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

SAVVAS SAVOPOULOS: Nelitza, I hope you get this message. Amy is in bed sick tonight and she was sick this afternoon and Veralicia has offered to stay to help her out so she's going to stay the night here.

(END AUDIO FEED)

BROWN: Ron Hosko is the former assistant director of the FBI.

(on camera): If you're an investigator listening to that, what would that tell you?

RON HOSKO, FORMER ASSISTANT FBI DIRECTOR: It's going to tell me, one, I need to get that recording analyzed to see are there extraneous noises spiking up in the background.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

SAVOPOULOS: She was sick this afternoon and Veralicia offered to --

(END AUDIO FEED)

HOSKO: There is someone in the background hollering under distress.

BROWN (voice-over): A few hours later, Gutierrez gets a text from Amy Savopoulos. "I'm making sure you do not come today."

[14:55:11] HOSKO: That would indicate that the event has started, that the offender or offenders are in the house with Amy and she is under their control.

BROWN (on camera): What did you think when you first got it?

GUTIERREZ: I called her right away.

BROWN: Did she answer it? GUTIERREZ: No.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

AMY SAVOPOULOS: Hi. We cannot answer right now. Please leave your name and number.

(END AUDIO FEED)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Pamela Brown joins me now from Washington.

Hearing the audio, it's chilling. The suspect we discussed, Daron Wint, he's been behind bars for a month. And there's new clues in the investigation?

BROWN: There are new clues, Brooke. Investigators still do not believe that the suspect, Daron Wint, acted alone. We're learning new information, particularly about his cousin who worked with him at American Ironworks 10 years ago. His cousin was fired from the company, the company owned by the Savopoulos family. But at the time, according to sources, he threatened to burn the place down. It was taken so seriously, Brooke, that the company took out a retraining order against him so he couldn't come near the premises. That was Daron Wint's cousin. And we know that investigators are looking at his brother who was in the car with him when he was arrested but, Brooke, so far no other arrests have been made. Daron Wint is the only suspect. Still very much a mystery.

BALDWIN: The Savopoulos family, the two surviving daughters were not at home. Their son, Philip, was not supposed to be. You talked to his coach. Why was he there?

BROWN: That's right. It's so heartbreaking. We spoke to his go-cart coach and he said, earlier in May, he had a mild concussion from an accident in the go-cart race. He was in Phoenix, Arizona, and the doctors ordered him on bed rest. And that's why he was there when the crime started.

It was an 18-hour ordeal, we know. It's absolutely horrifying, this family tortured in unspeakable ways. Brooke, this was a beloved family and a model family. And there's so many unanswered questions. We hope to answer some of those questions tonight in this special at 9:30 p.m.

BALDWIN: We'll be watching your special report this evening. It's "The D.C. Mansion Murders," tonight at 9:30 p.m. eastern here on CNN.

Pamela Brown, thank you.

Actor Dick Van Patton has died.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING) (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You know this show. He starred in the '70s series "Eight is Enough." One of the greatest TV dads we have known. He was on Broadway. He appeared on TV and movies. While he was best known for his work on screen and on stage, he was an animal lover, founding a pet food company. Patton leaves behind his wife of more than 60 years and his three sons. His long-time agent says he was ill for a long time. Dick Van Patton was 86 years of age.

And more sad news in the world of entertainment. Academy Award-wining film composure, James Horner, is feared dead from a plane crash. His agency has not confirmed his death. But they acknowledge his single- engine plane was involved in a crash yesterday near Santa Barbara. Horner is credited for more than 75 films and he's won two Oscars and six Grammys. Here's a sampling of his best-known compositions, starting arguably with his most iconic film score from "Titanic."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(SHOUTING)

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you build it, he will come.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And we continue on. Hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.