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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Search for Escaped Killers Focused in Franklin County; Republicans Calling for Confederate Flag to Come Down; Confederate Flag Defender: "I Was Wrong"; A Look at Secret ISIS Tunnels. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. The search for escaped killers Richard Matt and David Sweat is focused on a wooded area of Franklin County in New York. And Joyce Mitchell, she of course, is the prison worker; her husband is talking publicly about what he knows. Lyle Mitchell told NBC his wife told him, while she cooperated with parts of the escape plan, there were things she would not do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, THE TODAY SHOW: The plan was for her to be there in your car?

LYLE MITCHELL, JOYCE MITCHELL'S HUSBAND: It was supposed to be our jeep to pick them up.

LAUER: And at what point did she decide she couldn't go through with that?

MITCHELL: She didn't say. She just said when she started having pains. And she said earlier "I realized I messed up. And I love you." And she said "I had to." And just, she said "I couldn't do it."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Now, 18 days later, authorities are still looking for Matt and Sweat. And they're focused near a cabin where their DNA has been found.

Joining us now to discuss, Joanne DeMarco, realtor for Sotheby's international, who knows that area very well. Joanne, thank you so much for joining us. I'm sure it's amazing to use your -- you found yourself almost at the center of a manhunt there in upstate New York. But a lot of the questions is, what is this area? You know this area very well. Tell us about this area where the focus is.

JOANNE DEMARCO: REALTOR/VP SELECT SOTHEBY'S INTERNATIONAL REALTY: Well normally, it's a very peaceful, quiet, relaxing area. A great place to escape from reality and day-to-day life. We didn't expect that it would become a place to escape from where these gentlemen escaped from. But it's a lot of vacation homes up there, some beautiful lakes and mountains, and it's really one of the most gorgeous places in the country.

BERMAN: Gorgeous, primitive, picturesque, but what's it like to hide in? Are there empty structures, empty houses, empty vacation homes that these guys, you think could be hiding out in?

DEMARCO: Sure. I mean the majority of the Adirondacks and that area is really second homes, sometimes third and fourth homes for people. So a lot of times, they're completely unoccupied for long periods of the time. And the other thing about those homes is they're a lot of times away from grocery stores and places for provisions.

So, a lot of these cabins, say, stocked with, you know, staples so that people, when they do come up, they've got a good supply of canned goods and the like. And really a lot of groceries and things, and sometimes even vehicles are left there because when you're up there, you need a separate, you know, the car you drive around the city is not necessarily the car you drive through the mountains.

BOLDUAN: So Joanne, I mean, I would assume that summer season is definitely a high season for the Adirondacks. What's the level of concern? What are people talking about right now? I mean, if they're heading to their, the cabin that they're renting out, or the cabin that they own, are folks really concerned about it?

[11:35:00]

DEMARCO: Well, I mean, there's always that concern when you go to a cabin that hasn't been occupied. So it could be from things, you know, as serious as this, it could be something as minor as a, you know, a broken window or something like that. So I think that a crystal concern is that, is these two gentlemen are violent criminals. So, of course, there's concern for that and we're hoping that they're caught by 4th of July weekend, it's really when the season kicks off up there. It's the 4th of July, the labor day, so we really are hoping that this gets wrapped up very quickly here.

BERMAN: Before the majority of the people get up there. Joanne DeMarco, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

DEMARCO: It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: All right. CNN's going to take a much closer look at the Clinton Correctional Facility and the prison break. We have CNN's special report "THE GREAT PRISON ESCAPE." That is tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

BOLDUAN: Ahead for us, a rally calling on the South Carolina legislature to remove the Confederate flag standing on its grounds, that's happening that rally right now. Will they be able to get the votes that they need? The momentum's building. What about inside the state capitol. We're going to talk about to South Carolina's minority leader, Todd Rutherford. He's going to be joining us next. And...

BERMAN: Plus secret underground tunnels built by ISIS. We will take you inside, showing you how the terrible built and dug these hideouts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:40:00]

BOLDUAN: New today, more voices and now even companies, are turning against the use of the Confederate flag. Right now, we'll show you opponents of the Confederate flag are holding a second rally, a rally on the steps of the state capitol in South Carolina. They want South Carolina's legislature, which convenes in less than two hours now. They want South Carolina's legislature, the lawmakers to move to take action to remove the flag from its state grounds.

Yesterday, Republicans, many who long supported flying the flag, some of them turned against it. Governor Nikki Haley, she spoke out. She really hasn't firmly taken a position on the flag, though saying that the compromise have been struck back in the year 2000. South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham, he also came out for the first time yesterday, to say the flag needs to go.

BERMAN: So joining us now to talk about it, to talk about the vote in particular, the state house minority leader in South Carolina representative Todd Rutherford. Representative thanks so much for being with us.

STATE REP. TODD RUTHERFORD, MINORITY LEADER, SOUTH CAROLINA STATE HOUSE: Thank you for having me. And as you can see, it's a very lively and loud crowd.

BERMAN: It is. And growing as I take it, you know. Representative, just moments ago, we had US Senator Lindsey Graham on here republican, who up until yesterday, was not in support of removing the flag from the grounds. And he told us moments ago, "God help South Carolina if we fail to achieve the goal of removing the flag." What's the vote count right now? I know that people in Charleston's been calling for votes. And as of now, by their count, they don't have enough to get this thing removed.

RUTHERFORD: You know, it is way too early to assume that anyone knows what the vote count will actually be, until we get in the chamber. For years, many have stood in the shade while that flag flew outside. And they believed that it should come down, but they didn't want to say anything because they were afraid of the conservative people.

But the shade is gone. Sunlight is here. The nine deaths last week in Charleston, South Carolina, one of them, member of our body, are going to make us something you can't stand idly by. So all the good people that have come together and those in the state house for that, you decide where they're going to be. And I believe that we're going to be on the right side of history on this one.

BOLDUAN: So, at the moment, you say it's too early to figure out where everyone stands. But we have heard some, there are some folks, some other law makers who are speaking out still in support of keeping the flag up. I mean, are you -- you're obviously talking to your colleagues in the state legislature. You're going to be convening a session there in just under two hours. For the folks who still support keeping the flag there, what's their number one reason they're giving you?

RUTHERFORD: The number one reason the people have for still supporting the flag being up, is what they call heritage. It's because their ancestors started the civil war, and because of that, they believe that this flag should continue to fly. What they miss is this -- those of us that want this flag down are not going to come into their house. We're not going to take off their t-shirts, their belt buckles. We believe that if they want to do that, they're walking to it.

The problem is, this is a government building. And the government of South Carolina should not fly a symbol of hatred in its front yard. It should never have been on top of dome. And it should not be in the front yard now.

BERMAN: So representative, we know you are still in mourning. We know that Senator Clementa Pinckney was your friend. And we are very sorry for your loss. And you probably haven't had much time to think about much beyond this week that's happening right now. And the flag issue for some. But what about issues beyond the flag? There are all sorts of Confederate statues on state property all over South Carolina. I imagine there are schools named after Confederate generals and the like. Are these things that should be reconsidered as well?

RUTHERFORD: You know, quite honestly, South Carolina's very proud heritage. We also have a heritage that is steamed down in racism and bigger try. But we can't erase all of that. You know, we need to acknowledge our history instead of just -- great if we moved on. Statue of Ben Tillman is right behind me actually. It's right on the state house grounds. He openly advocated for the killing of knee growth.

And Dylann Roof follows his glance, some hundred years later. The problem is this, the government can't erase our history. It doesn't mean that we need to remove all the monuments. Dylann Roof could not hear that statue of Ben Tillman around with him.

What he could carry, whether when he did carry with them all the time was that Confederate flag. That's a symbol of hate that we need to go after. And I'll believe that this point, that's where we need to stop.

BOLDUAN: All right then. Where that conversation starts, it's in that state capitol where you're going to be going and we'll be speaking with your colleagues. We can hear, as you're speaking, we can hear those chance behind USF rally. I'll take it down; we'll see whose voices are heard in that state capitol.

Todd Rutherford, thank you so much for joining is.

RUTHERFORD: Thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course. BERMAN: Getting louder there by the minute. All right, we'll talk more about this for the man who has had a remarkable turnaround. He's spent years defending the Confederate flag, even nostalgia for the Confederacy. But now, he says, he had it all wrong. You're looking at him. Once known as the Southern Avenger. We'll speak to him live next.

BOLDUAN: Plus CNN is going inside the battleground where ISIS lost. You're going to see what's left -- booby traps and more, the secret tunnels. That's ahead.

[11:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, listen to this quote. "I argued the Confederate flag wasn't about race. I believed millions of well meaning Southerners believe it too. I was wrong. That flag is always about race."

BOLDUAN: That is coming from the man once known as the Southern Avenger. One of America's most popular conservative talks, Talk Radio host and also now the editor of rare politics. Jack Hunter is joining us now.

Jack it's great to see you. Great to meet you. Thank you so much for coming in. You see that picture, I mean, this was part of your radio stick at one point. You were the Southern avenger. How then after writing this really compelling piece, please tell us how did you get from there to where you are here today?

JACK HUNTER, FORMER HOST "THE SOUTHERN AVENGER": Well, first of all, I can't tell you how much I hate seeing that photo these days. But you know, obviously it's part of the narrative. I would say that, you know, my story to a large degree is part of the story we've seen play out in my hometown of Charleston right now.

You're seeing many Confederate flag supporters say what I used to say, that it's not about hate, it's not about racism, it's about state's rights. It's about heritage. Well there's a big problem with that. And, you know, a number of years ago, I saw the problem myself. I'm speaking out about it now. There are millions of Americans, both in the south and with that, outside the south. Black Americans who see that symbol as racial terrorism. They see it as a symbol of hate.

[11:50:00]

And that perception, you know, especially to those of us who used to defend the Confederate flag. Often crashing down in a big way, when a white supremacist walk into a church in Charleston South Carolina, and murdered in cold blood nine people because of the color of their skin. I think we're seeing a different conversation in my home state, my hometown right now. And it really warms my heart to see that the Confederate flag needs to go.

BERMAN: So it's really interesting that Senator Lindsey Graham just essentially said the same things. He essentially said that it took these killings to shake him to the point where he changed his position on this. I'm wondering given where you are on the flying, given where you are on many things having to do with the Confederacy now, how much more change then would you support? What about the statues? What about the high schools across the south named after Confederate generals? Virginia just said they're going to have to take, you know, the signs of the Confederacy. They're not going to have the Confederate flag on license plates anymore.

HUNTER: Sure. I think everything needs to be up for debate. I think the flag itself is such an overwhelming and overbearing symbol that that's the obvious focus right now. I mean, you know, imagine being an African-American and having that heritage, your grandfather might have been a slave, you great-grandfather might have been a slave, your grandfather might he been lynched, your parents or grandparents might have had to drink at separate water fountains. Your parent might've been murdered in Charleston last week.

You have to look at that flag; you have to think of that heritage, you have to think of that history and how it relates to your personal heritage. Now the question you asked, how does it relate to larger Confederate symbols and emblems across the south? There's probably going to have to be some balance, but the Confederate flag is certainly the place to start.

The problem with a lot of these arguments and these debates, the flag in particular, it that people don't want to empathize. That's the problem Ii had so many years ago. I was not willing to see the other side. I was all about being right. Well, you know what, there's something better than being right. You can be decent. You can be a good human being. I was reminded of that this week with the tragedy in Charleston. And I felt like needed to say so.

But it goes beyond the flag, I think. I think, you know, when we see scenes like what happened in Ferguson or McKinney, Texas, with the young girl who was thrown on the ground by a police officer and some conservatives thought that was proper or decent. That's not decent. We can be better than this. And a start to that I think is getting rid of a symbol that is so divisive. It's more important to come together and to be more decent to be a better society, than to be right.

There's nothing that Confederate flag defenders say about that flag -- even very many well-meaning people support that flag -- I was not coming from a place of hate in many respects. But there's nothing about what they care about that flag that trumps how black Americans feel about it. That's why it has to come down.

BOLDUAN: A strong voice and very interesting perspective in this conversation. Jack, thank you very much for coming on.

HUNTER: It's good to be with you. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Of course. Coming up for us, secret underground tunnels used by ISIS. We're going to take you inside those hideouts and show you how the terror group used them to move freely throughout the region.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:55:00]

BOLDUAN: New this morning, CNN is getting a firsthand look inside an underground network of tunnels that's been used by ISIS. The tunnels, they're in a key city near the Syria-Turkey border which is now under Kurdish control.

BERMAN: US coalition air strikes. How did ISIS position helping these Kurdish fighters capture Tal Abyad. This is a city; it's in the middle of a vital supply line to the self-proclaimed ISIS capital of Raqqa in Syria. CNN's senior international correspondent Arwa Damon, she got a firsthand exclusive look inside these tunnels.

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ISIS had moved into this particular area about two years ago. This, obviously, dug out with heavy machinery about three feet, three inches, a meter wide and pretty high as well. And you can see the metal ceiling, roof that was put into it running throughout. This ISIS tunnel is fairly crude but still highly effective when it comes to giving them freedom of movement throughout the entire area.

BERMAN: Fascinating tunnels, but the key here is now that ISIS has lost control of that city so let's talk about that.

Going to bring in Phil Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst, former CIA counterterrorism official. Phil, what's interesting is this town we just saw Arwa in, there was supposed to be a pick battle that was going to take weeks to kick ISIS out. It took two days with US air support and also an organized fighting force, the Kurds, on the ground. Can this model be replicated elsewhere in fight against ISIS?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Let's not pretend that this is going to be reflected across Iraq any time soon. There's a couple of characteristics you need to think about, John. The first is we've talked for months about the importance not only of confronting the ISIS, but of having troops, whether it's Iraqi army troops or Kurds who are willing to fight. The Kurds have shown all along that they're willing to lose people, and they're willing to go toe to toe. So that's one of the key indicators here that we have not seen elsewhere.

The second issue that I have after watching these guys and guys like this for 25 years at the CIA is whether ISIS will make the same mistake. Insurgent groups that control territory face problems when they try to go toe to toe with a conventional military. ISIS is out with things like armored personnel carriers. They're going to get whacked if they do that again. And they suffered that fate here.

BOLDUAN: What's different? Is it -- what then is different? What more is different, then? When you talk about this Syrian-Turkey -- the area in the Syria-Turkey border, to where they're fighting in Iraq. I mean, and does it come down to, what I hear you're saying is you need a reliable ground force which to this point Iraqi forces clearly have not proven to be that? MUDD: Well if you look at how successful the search operates. Typically they are going to recruit the local population. They're going to mix within the local population so it's more difficult to use air strikes because you don't want to go down on neighborhoods. That's why they have tunnels there. They're afraid of air strikes.

So one of the things that's different here is obviously the inability of ISIS to recruit the local population but also the power of the US air force and drones when ISIS chooses to use conventional tactics instead of insurgent tactics.

[12:00:03] BOLDUAN: Fascinating. Well, a success anywhere is good to see.

BERMAN: Phil Mudd. Phil, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

MUDD: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you. And thank you all for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.