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Escaped Inmates' DNA Found in Cabin; Someone Saw Man Leaving Cabin; Search Corrections' Officer's Home; More Calls to Remove Confederate Flag; Obama Uses N Word to Make Point on Racism; Gunman Wanted Race War. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 7:00 p.m. in Paris, 8:00 in Jerusalem. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We start with an important new development in the search for the two escaped inmates in upstate New York. A law enforcement source says DNA collected at a burglarized cabin matches both fugitives. Last hour, we heard more at a police news conference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: It's a confirmed lead for us. It has generated a massive law enforcement response, as you can see, and we're going to run this to ground. We have no definitive evidence that anyone else is assisting them, but we are certainly not ruling that out. We're looking at all avenues at our disposal. Neither of them are from this area but that does not discount the fact that they could not have had research or had some collaboration with the location. This cabin (INAUDIBLE.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Our Sara Ganim is joining us now live from Owls Head. That's in upstate New York near where that cabin is located about 30 miles or so from the prison in Dannemora. We just heard, Sara, the lead investigators in this search. What else can you tell us? What are you hearing about these search efforts right now, specifically what led them to the -- to that cabin where they found the DNA?

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know the lead, the tip that led them here, came on Saturday from someone who was checking on an unoccupied cabin and saw a man leaving, running into the woods through a back door. The cabin was clearly burglarized. They called police. Police came in and removed certain items from the cabin. Our law enforcement sources telling us that they were tested for DNA and tested positive for those two inmates which is a pretty big break considering that on Friday they had -- law enforcement had said that the trail had gone cold for these two.

Now, I just want to give you an idea, Wolf, of what this area is like. Very rural. It's in the Adirondacks, upstate New York, lots of unoccupied cabin, lots of seasonal home, lots of hiking trails, biking trails, the kinds of -- the kind of things that searchers have been looking in and walking through since more than two weeks ago when these two inmates disappeared. They've been following more than 2,000 tips. They've been walking hundreds of miles of trails. Last night, when we got here, there were police on all-terrain vehicles. There were tactical teams that were gearing up doing grid searches through the wooded area. You can see a police vehicle checkpoint behind me. It's not very visible here in the street where it's wide open. We know that their search is concentrated in the wooded areas -- Wolf.

BLITZER: That's a huge, huge break, the finding of that DNA in that cabin. Meanwhile, Sara, a second prison worker, what, has been suspended after being accused of playing at least some role in the escape? What do we know about this individual?

GANIM: We know he's 57-year-old veteran guard at the prison, a corrections' officer. He's been there more than 25 years. His lawyer telling us that the reason that they wanted to talk to him is because he received a painting that was made by Richard Matt, one of the escapees. We know that those paintings have been a focus of the investigation, Wolf, because Joyce Mitchell, the prison seamstress who's already been charged with helping those two men escape by providing them tools, she also got a painting.

So, police, they searched this man's home, this correction officer's home over the weekend, interviewed him for several hours. He's on paid leave. He has not been charged. His attorney telling me that he is cooperating fully, that he believes he has done nothing wrong, that he 100 percent did not know about this escape leading it up to it, according to his attorney -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Sara, thank you. We'll stay in close touch with you. Sara Ganim reporting live from upstate New York.

So, now, we do have some DNA evidence linking the two escaped inmates to the area, as I said, just about 30 miles or so from that prison. Joining us now here in Washington is Tom Fuentes, our Law Enforcement Analyst, a former FBI assistant director. This is a huge break right now. They found DNA of these two guys in this cabin about 30 miles from the prison.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: If that's true, it is a huge break. And you can tell the difference in terminology. Saturday, when they had the sighting 300 miles south of there, near the Pennsylvania border, they referred to it as a sighting from a credible witness but not confirmed. This time, the press briefing just given by the trooper from New York State Police, he's calling this a confirmed sighting, meaning that they not only have the visible sighting of an individual deemed credible, but they've corroborated with physical evidence. In this case, DNA, although he didn't want to go into specifics of it. But if they have DNA linking that those two guys were in that cabin and they were sighted leaving the cabin as recently as this Saturday, it's huge deal.

BLITZER: DNA has a life span that goes on for several day, right?

[13:05:01] FUENTES: It depends on the environment that it's in. It depends what they found it on. DNA can become obliterated in a tropical environment, you know, within a few hours or days. You know, in a more colder environment, it can last for months, forever. I mean, they get DNA from mammoths that have been in the -- in the ice for 10,000 years. But what's significant in this case is they found the DNA, but they also had some sort of visual, some sort of spotting of these two guys, right?

FUENTES: It's a combination of both. Well, the sighting then makes it more recent. If they had just found DNA, someone returns to their cabin, they haven't been there in months, then you don't know if the DNA was put there recently or for -- or two weeks ago and that was a passing location on their way to somewhere else. But the fact that it was sighted Saturday is very significant.

Now, the other problem with this is how quickly could they get hundreds of police officers on that location once they confirmed DNA? And that's the problem. Did these guys slip out of the area again before they could set up the primmer? That's possible.

BLITZER: All Right, Tom, don't go too far away. There's other news we're following right now. We'll have more on the search for these two killers.

But the funerals, we're talking about the funerals that begin this week for the victims of the Charleston church massacre, as the community mourns and tries to move forward. Services were held at the historic Emanuel AME church yesterday for the first time since nine worshipers were shot and killed during bible study. The church's pastor, the Reverend Clementa Pinckney, was among those killed.

Investigators are looking into a Web site registered to the gunman, Dylann Roof. It includes a 2,000 page -- a 2,000-word racist manifesto. The site shows pictures of Roof spitting and burning American flags. The massacre in Charleston has reignited debate over the confederate flag that flies on the statehouse grounds in South Carolina. Protesters calling for its removal. They rallied at the capital over the weekend chanting, take it down. That sentiment was echoed at a news conference by community leaders and activists just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARTON KIMPSON (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATE: It's time to end division in this state. It's time to move forward into the 21st century. There are many who have cautioned us to wait but those people are part of the status quo. And what we have to do is galvanize and use this window of opportunity in light of this horrible tragedy and come away with a solution and an agenda to rid this state of hate, division, and racism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We're going to talk more about the Charleston community's road ahead with a man who played a key role in Baltimore, as a response to the writing this past spring, Congressman Elijah Cummings of Maryland, he's standing by to join us live. Also ahead, the president of the United States using the N word during

a discussion on racism in America. Did he cross the line? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:11:25]

BLITZER: President Obama delivering a very blunt assessment of race relations in the United States following the deadly shootings in Charleston, South Carolina. The president speaking on comedian Mark Marin's podcast said the United States has not overcome its history with racism. And to make the point, the president used language that a lot of us would consider to be offensive. Listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Racism.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Racism. We are not cured of it. Clearly. And it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. We have -- societies don't, overnight, completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's discuss what's going on. I'm joined by Bakari Sellers, he's a former South Carolina state representative and an attorney, as well CNN Political Commentator Charles Blow. Bakari, what do you think? Should the president have used that word or should he have said, as all of us say, the N word, referring to that very bad word, obviously?

BAKARI SELLERS, FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE, SOUTH CAROLINA: No, I think the president was right on point. This discussion about race has to be very, very big and broad. This is complex. I think the president, in utilizing that, taught us all that we are not worried about those individuals who use this derogatory term as much as we are trying to have a broader, larger, discussion in the context of race. People have a hard time understanding that we are not that far removed from the 16th Street Baptist church bombing. We're not that far removed from RFK's assassination, from Dr. King's assassination, from the Orangeburg massacre. And now we're having similar shared experiences in 2015. That is the discussion we have to have and it's larger than a singular word.

BLITZER: Charles, what do you think?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it depends on context here. And when I look -- listen to what the president is saying here, he's basically making the argument that racism does not have to be articulated and even in the most blunt terms, including the use of the N word. But rather, it can be structural. It can be very persistent. And he's using it in a very instructive way. And I think that context always is important, both because I know that, you know, whether or not you -- however you land on use of N -- the N word itself, it is very much the case that people use language in group that they take -- that was meant to demean them and they kind of defame it by using it in repetition in group.

And so, this happens both -- you know, women sometimes discuss things in ways that men would -- should probably steer clear of. People in the LGBT community discuss issues using language that people outside of those groups would probably be best to steer clear of. This happens in religion. This happens in ethnic groups and I think that that is just a fact of how the etymology of language develops and how people appropriate damaging language in order to defang it and that's just something that happens. And so, the president's kind of speaking in group in this moment.

What shocks me is not him being instructive about the use of a word that we cannot really scrub from the language. I mean, I've -- I just wrote a book and I used it several times in that book because it is destructive. It is historical. It is a part of -- a damaging part of the language that must be used in a way that is instructive. However, I'm shocked when I hear people use it when it is derogatory. And he -- the president is not the first president to do so. In the (INAUDIBLE) use it over and over again. You hear LBJ using the N word in the -- in ways that are derogatory and demeaning.

[13:15:09] And that is particularly shocking because in some ways he is a civil rights hero for signing the civil rights legislation, but at the same time he's a racist, you know. And so when you look at people using this word and in these - and those presidents didn't even know that that language would ever see the light of day. The president is saying it into an open mic consciously as an instructive moment. I think you have to use that context. You cannot take that part away from this conversation.

BLITZER: Bakari, only moments ago the White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, was asked if the president regrets using that word in that podcast interview. He said the president does not regret it. All of us who have covered the president know he is very precise with hiss language, with his words. Do you believe he deliberately wanted to use that word, Bakari?

BAKARI SELLERS, FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Yes, I don't understand why so many people are awe-struck by this moment. The president, if I'm not mistaken, used the word 14 or 15 times in "Dreams of My Father." So this isn't something new. This isn't something new to the conversation.

But I think that we're missing the message if we get bogged down on his usage of that one term. I mean if we look at it globally and if we look at everything he was talking about, to Mr. Blow's point, he's talking about the back breaking generational systemic institutional racism that people face on a daily basis that's been highlighted in this country. We're talking about a larger issue. We're not talking about a singular word.

BLOW: And if I can kind of dig down just a tiny bit on this, I believe that he's making a point that a lot of people have tried to make, which is that people try to place on to the backs of this president in six years now in what will end up being eight years the burden of eliminating structural racism that he did not create. They want him to come in and be the janitor and clean it up. And he is basically saying in this moment, that is not the way that this sort of hate operates. No one person, no two terms can do that. It operates over generations. It operates over centuries. And it is not going to turn on a dime. It is not going to turn on one presidency, whether he is black, white, Latino, whatever. And I think that he's making that point and we should not miss that idea.

BLITZER: The argument, Bakari, that I've heard since this interview came to light was that it's one thing for the president to use that word repeatedly in his book that he wrote as he - when he was a state senator or state lawmaker in Illinois, it's another thing to use that word publicly as president of the United States to which you say, Bakari?

SELLERS: Well, I mean, I think that, again, we're missing the larger point. I understand the president of the United States using the term, but he has an awesome responsibility on his shoulders. This conversation we're having globally about race is happening on his watch. Those nine lives that were lost on Wednesday night in Charleston, South Carolina, due to a racist terrorist happened on his watch. So he has to provide some leadership and some context and I'm happy he's not dodging the issue.

It's larger than the "n" word. This discussion is much larger than the "n" word. This discussion is about moving our country forward, black, white, Hispanic and otherwise, and doing what the city of Charleston has said a perfect example for, which is coming together and understanding that we've made a lot of progress, but we still have a ways to go.

BLITZER: All right, Charles, go ahead, give me your final thought.

BLOW: Yes, I mean, I just - I just want to say - keep saying, don't get hung up on the word. Look at the structural racism that the president is talking about. If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the structural racism that allows this president to be called the "n" word online and in your - probably in your Twitter feed, in your FaceBook feed on a daily basis. If you want to be upset about something, look at that because that is the structural part of that, that we allow as a society to happen. And if you want to be - if you're just going to be mad about what you think may be a faux pas of decorum a sitting president using a word, look at all the other sitting presidents that we know of who have used that word and not in an instructive way.

BLITZER: Yes, that's an excellent point. You know, it's so heartbreaking, if you follow social media, follow the Twitter feeds and all of that, there are still, unfortunately, tragically, so many Americans, unfortunately, who still can't come to grips with the fact that we have an African-American president, an African-American first family living in the White House. That's a serious problem out there and it's important, as the president says, to talk about it and not just sweep it under the carpet.

Guy, thanks very much. Bakari Sellers, Charles Blow, appreciate it very much joining us.

BLOW: Thank you.

BLITZER: Up next, we'll get the perspective of a distinguished U.S. congressman. Elijah Cummings is standing by. We're going to talk about the president's use of that "n" word, the Charleston church shooting, what's going on in Baltimore, the recovery

there. Let's hope it's a recovery. Much more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:23:22] BLITZER: Racial tensions in the United States once again in the spotlight after the Charleston church massacre. Prior to that, incidents like the death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore highlighted tensions between police and minority communities. Democratic Congressman Elijah Cummings of Maryland has been in the forefront in the effort to confront the problems in his state and beyond. He's joining us live from Baltimore.

Congressman, thanks very much for joining us.

Let me get your quick reaction to this, I guess, buzz that's been generated by the president's use publicly of the "n" word. Your thoughts.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: I'm not upset about it at all. I've done it myself when being instructive, as the president was doing it here. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I mean I stay away from that word as much as I can, but I have used in the speeches to be instructive. And I think that's all he was trying to do. And I think - and I don't want to get distracted with that, Wolf, particularly when there's so many other things going on and the president trying to do the things he's trying to do. But, again, I'm not at all upset about it and not surprised.

BLITZER: All right, let's move on. Let's talk a little bit about what happened in Charleston. It's amazing - it's really comforting. This guy, this killer, he wanted to start a race war. It looks like the exact opposite has occurred on the streets of Charleston and beyond. People coming together. Is that your conclusion as well?

CUMMINGS: No doubt about it. First of all, let me express my sympathy to the family and the people of Charleston - the family of the nine victims and the people of Charleston and the wonderful church, Mother Emanuel, and all its members.

Wolf, I - you know, I'm the son of two Pentecostal preachers from South Carolina. As a matter of fact, from Manning, South Carolina, in Jim Clyburn's district. And the reaction did not surprise me.

[13:25:12] One of the things that we are taught in our faith is that we cannot allow hatred to overpower love. And that's what love and forgiveness are a part of our religion. But I don't want people to mistake that with regard to making sure that we have a major problem with anybody coming into our church, being welcomed into the church, sitting down for an hour in discussion, then puts down a Bible and picks up a gun. There's a major problem with that and this young man again - and I don't say his name because I think that's what he was looking for, publicity, -- but this young man did something awfully wrong. And then when we look at his manifesto and the things that he talked about, clearly he had racist intent and hatred at the same time on his mind.

And so, again, this - but the fact is, is that for the families to be able to come and say, "we forgive you," I think is very powerful, but it does something else, too. It draws people to the church. In other words, they - I think people have looked that this and said, wait a minute, if you can within hours come out and say to somebody who has murdered your loved ones that you forgive them, then that religion must be very, very powerful. But make it clear that now we must seek justice with regard to this defendant.

BLITZER: The minister, congressman, that delivered this sermon at Emanuel AME yesterday, he made a point of expressing gratitude to the police there. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. NORVEL GOFF SR., 7TH DISTRICT AME CHURCH: Then finally I want to say thank you to law enforcement. I got no problem in doing that. I want to thank them. I want to thank them. (INAUDIBLE). Oh, yes, (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: That was a really powerful moment, congressman, when the minister said that. I know you're working with the police in Baltimore to heal the problem. There have been significant problems, as you well know. Tell us what's going on. What's the latest in your community?

CUMMINGS: Well, you know, there have been a few police officers here in Baltimore who have disguised themselves on air and said that they we in the midst of a slowdown and we saw our murder rate go up substantially and we have all been very concerned about that. And so what I'm doing is I'm literally sitting down within the hour, Wolf, with about 20 of our police department folks talking to them about how we can make sure that we're all on the same page and that they are doing their job and I want to know what they expect from the community because, again, the community needs the police and the police need the community to resolve crime. That's always been my position. And so we're going to do that.

And then tomorrow, I'll be meeting with the head of our police union, FOP, to try to make sure that the leadership of our union is on the same page with our mayor, police commissioner and others because we've got to move forward. We cannot have the police on one side of the street and the community on the other talking past each other. So I'm hoping to be the bridge to bring them together so that we can address the issues that we have here. BLITZER: Well, good luck on that. I know you've been a leader in the

community in trying to make sure that this relationship between the people of Baltimore and the police gets back to being strong and improve that relationship. Good luck.

Let me wrap up, congressman, we're just learning, courtesy - according to "The Posted Currier" newspaper in South Carolina, that the governor there, Nikki Haley, will call - will call for the removal of the confederate flag from the statehouse grounds. What's your - your almost a son of the south, shall we say.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

BLITZER: What's your thoughts on this? I assume you welcome this decision by the governor.

CUMMINGS: I welcome that decision and I'm so happy that you are talking about it now during our interview. I think this is wonderful. We have got to get past these symbols that bring so much pain to a large segment of our population. We have to be about the business, Wolf, of uniting our communities and that flag just sends the wrong message and then its placement on the statehouse grounds sends the wrong message. And so I'm glad to hear that and I'm trusting that the members of the legislature down there in South Carolina will follow the governor and do the right thing.

[13:30:02] BLITZER: They need a two-thirds majority in the legislature there to get it done. We'll see what happens. That's not going to be easy, right?

CUMMINGS: It may not be easy, but I can - I can tell you, if - this is that moment where South Carolina who -- the governor has talked about South Carolina being compassionate and people uniting together. I think this is taking down that flag could be the turning point to get where you say she says. I believe it will happen. And I think with the leadership of my good friend, Jim Clyburn, who's been a staunch proponent of taking that flag down, and the mayor in Charleston, I think we'll see it.

BLITZER: Mayor Riley has been outspoken on this as well.

CUMMINGS: He's been great.

BLITZER: All right, Congressman, as usual, thanks so much for joining us.

CUMMINGS: Thank you.