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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Growing Chorus of Voices Calling for Removal of Confederate Flag From SC State Capitol; DNA of Escaped Prisoners Found in Cabin 25 Miles Away From Prison. Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET.

Aired June 22, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, a growing chorus of voices is demanding the removal of the confederate flags from the grounds of the South Carolina state capitol. In a few minutes a group of legislators and the mayor from Charleston will hold a press conference to announce a new rally calling for the flags removal.

I should also say Governor Nikki Haley of South Carolina is also holding a press conference this afternoon where she could announce some action there. So something big could be happening on this front. Of course, this is all in the aftermath of the massacre in Charleston carried out by an avowed white supremacist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PEOPLE: Take it down. Take it down. Take it down. Take it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: 1500 people attended a take-down-the-flag rally this weekend, and this is what some of the presidential candidates are now saying about the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK SANTORUM, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the opinion of people here in South Carolina, and having them work through this difficulty is much more important than the....

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your opinion?

MIKE HUCKABEE, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For those of us running for president, everyone's being invaded with this question as if somehow that has anything to do whatsoever with running for president. And my position is, it most certainly does not.

LINDSEY GRAHAM, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm very confident that they're going to make the right choice for the people of South Carolina in a way that all other people are comfortable with. They've shown a capacity to be able to do that in the past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flag represents to some a symbol of war, and that was the sample of one side to others. It's a racist symbol and it's been used by people - been used in a racist way.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The confederate flag is a symbol of racism to many but it's a symbol of history and heritage to others. The flag vocation has been hotly contested in South Carolina for years.

We're now a republican state. And republican state senator who once supported the flag staying in place has now committed to getting it removed, but what will happen from here? Joining us to discuss this Boyd Brown, former democratic South Carolina state legislator. He also attended the take-it-down rally that we discussed, that we were talking about over the weekend.

Boyd, thank you very much for joining us. I guess the debate probably doesn't surprise you because it's been going on in South Carolina for years. But now it's taking on - it's gone national, if you will. Unfortunately because of the horrific events that happened in Charleston.

Since we played the sound of the presidential candidates, I want to get your take. Do you think this is a state issue, should be taken up just to be discussed in the state, and only in the state? Or do you think the presidential candidates should have an opinion on it one way or another?

BOYD BROWN, FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA LEGISLATOR: Well I think presidential candidates should certainly have an opinion on it one way or the other. I think they do. They, you know, their response has been politically calculated. And that's sad because this country needs leadership at this time. This country always needs good leadership. And good leaders act first, and then think about political ramifications.

To hear some of those responses have been somewhat, have been very disappointing actually. But my hat's off to someone like Senator Corker in Tennessee who came out this morning and said what he said. And Mitt Romney who said what he said. Hillary Clinton and Martin O'Malley who both have come out and said it needs to come down.

[11:35:00]

So yes, while you have some bad apples, you know, I think the bunch of them will come out eventually and say it needs to come down as they should.

BERMAN: After the last round of controversy, Boyd, in 2000, there was this compromise measure to take it off the capitol dome, put it on the grounds. And the law is written a way I've never seen anything like this. It requires a two-thirds majority in the legislature, a supermajority. The thing you can't even take it down. There's no pulley system.

It's affixed up there which is why it wasn't in has staff after these horrible killings. Do you think this can get two-thirds of the legislature? Do you think two-thirds of the South Carolina legislature will vote to take this flag down?

BROWN: Well, John first, I mean, that law wasn't made the way it was by accident. You know, you had an era of folks who control the state legislature at a time, who grew up in the Jim Crow era, who grew up with these divisions, you know, as part of their families, as part of their backgrounds.

But, you know, when I came in to legislature ed, roughly 20 or so folks in my freshman class, including Senator Tim Scott. So there's plenty of turnover in the legislature since 1998 and 2000, since those days that compromise was made, but, you know, I think this is not political anymore. This is personal.

You know, I was, I'm proud to call Clem Pinckney, a friend of mine, and many of those - many of my former colleagues in the legislature and senate feel the same way. The politics, this past week have been taking at, taking out of this. This is no longer a political issue. This is, this is personal. And because of that, I think you'll see the governor come out this afternoon, call for the removal of the flag. I think you'll see others join that chorus. And I think this time, at last, the flag will come down off the state house grounds.

BOULDAN: Well before that happens, Boyd, yes you're definitely from a different political party, but what do you say to these republican presidential candidates? You heard - we played some sounds from Mike Huckabee. Dale Mike Huckabee says that "This is not an issue for someone running for president." He said everyone's being baited with this question as if it has anything to do whatsoever with running for president. What do you say to Mike Huckabee?

BROWN: Well, first, I think to echo what has been said coming out of Charles and, I'll pray for Mike Huckabee because in his heart of hearts, he knows what is, what the right answer is. He's a former preacher for crying out loud. So, you know, I think that gets to the point of this issue is, is South Carolinians have shown how you're supposed to respond in a tragedy and a horrific act such as this.

Folks like Joe Riley and the families of these victims in Charleston have been, have been remarkable to say the least. So, you know, I think, you know, to those presidential candidates I'll just say. Follow their lead. If you're not going to lead yourself, follow their lead. And come out and call for this to finally come down. It's for presidential candidates, someone who wants to lead the entire population of this country. For them not to take a stand on this, is just unbelievable. And then you compare with the words of Mike Huckabee in the past, on what he has said on that flag in particular, and that's just embarrass - I'd be embarrassed to call myself Mike Huckabee right now.

BOLDUAN: Boyd Brown, thank you very much. As Boyd mentioned, as John actually mentioned originally, Nikki Haley, the governor of South Carolina, to speak at some point this afternoon, that's going to be very interesting to see what she has to say. A lot of folks have been putting that question to her for years now. Boyd Brown, thanks so much for joining us.

BERMAN: All right, we're getting an update less than 30 minutes from the New York state police. There is major news in the hunt for these two killers. DNA found in a cabin. We'll bring you the very latest on this soon.

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[11:40:00]

BOLDUAN: Got a big break in the manhunt for the escaped killers in upstate New York. Deborah Feyerick has been working our sources. She got new information coming in. So what are you hearing now Deb?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the big things is that, now investigators really believe after this investigation that there is no evidence that these two men had the kind of support network, that they would have needed once their plan B completely fell apart. And that's one of the reasons that they're - they appear to have been located some 25 miles from the prison.

Now we are being told that the break in is really the first, sort of big thing that they have done to show where it is they're holing up. We do know that sometime on Saturday, somebody going to the cabin actually saw a man running from it. They called authorities. Authorities came and those authorities essentially did DNA test on some of the items they found, confirming that the two prisoners were in fact in that cabin.

So having identified them, now they know that this is really a game-changer. The two men likely know that they have been discovered, and now it's going to change how they behave and what they do. But this is the really the kind of break that investigators and searchers needed up in that area. John and Kate?

BERMAN: All right Deb, stand by. I want to bring in Lenny DePaul. He's the former commander of the US Marshall Service Regional Fugitive Task Force for New York and New Jersey. Lenny thanks so much for being with us. Big news. They found the cabin where these guys seemed to be. They found their DNA. It's about 25 miles from the prison itself. What now? What now in the search especially because as Deb said, these guys probably know that they've been found? At least found recently and could be even more dangerous.

LENNY DEPAUL, FORMER COMMANDER U.S. MARSHALL REGIONAL FUGITIVE TASK FORCE: Absolutely John. I've been putting this into perspective. If this hunting cabin owners stumbles on to somebody running at the back when he arrived some time yesterday. Coupled with the DNA that apparently was found and matching these two guys. That's a home run for law enforcement.

As Deb just stated, now we got a confined area. We hope that law enforcement hopefully had arrived in time, got a perimeter set up, and these two guys are contained. I mean, with bloodhounds that are out there now, aviation support, you know, these guys, these men and women that have been going around the clock for two weeks. They're dedicated warriors, they respond quickly to all these tips as they did in Friendship New York 300 miles away.

[11:45:00]

They're 25 miles from the prison, so you know, if I'm those guys, I know this cabin owner is certainly on a telephone, and is calling the authorities. They're moving pretty quick but as the tip that law enforcement's been waiting for. They're messing up, like I've been saying all week. They've got to do this. It's been too quiet. There's no car jackings, no kidnappings, robberies. Well now we got one.

BOLDUAN: How does it also change the game? You've had tips, they followed up, they had some surveillance video, they followed up, they had matted down grass, they followed up. But now that they're likely these men know they've been found out. And if Deb's sources are saying, they've seen that they're desperate and that they - and they broke into this cabin. How does that change the game in terms of the search? They probably means they're even more dangerous now I would assume.

DEPAUL: Oh absolutely. Desperate people do desperate things. When other cabins have been broken into that have yet been opened up for the summer. Did they find a weapon? You know, these are questions that law enforcement, certainly running through law enforcement's' mind at this point. So you know, the resources and the assets that have been deployed between SWAT teams and special operations groups that are there. They're well prepared. And again, what's their mindset on these two guys? Is it suicide by cop, if they're cornered? Are they split-up? Are they still together? A lot of unanswered questions but I'm sure law enforcement is doing their homework.

BERMAN: And one of the interesting pieces of reporting here is that law enforcement, at least one source thinks they may be monitoring radio communication.

FEYERICK: Well that's exactly right. You have to think about it and I'm sure Lenny can even to this, is that there are hundreds of people who are up in that area. They've got to communicate with one another. How are they communicating? They're communicating by radio. It's unclear whether in fact these men have any sort of devices, even service cell phones, could be checking in to find out where this hunt is going. And so that two is something that investigators are taking burglars seriously. It affects how they communicate with one another. It affects how they arrive on scene. But as Lenny...

(CROSSTALK)

FEYERICK: And also remember the area that this is going on. And this is Saranac Lake. There are a lot of vacation homes there. There's a lot of cabins in that area. So it's not just about finding these two guys. It's about a flood of people that are about to ride in that area for this summer. So that makes the intensity of the search, that much more vital.

BERMAN: All right. Deb Feyerick, Lenny DePaul, thanks so much. Remember there's a news conference we're expecting just a few minutes from now from New York law enforcement officials. They could get much more information on this search just ahead.

In the meantime, a lot of people watching the Supreme Court this week. Why? They'll get two major decisions. Gay marriage, is there a constitutional right to gay marriage. Obama Care, could 6.4 million people lose subsidy? The Supreme Court could decide this week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:50:00]

BOLDUAN: This week the Supreme Court could hand down two blockbuster opinions on Obama Care and same sex marriage. The justices could effectively keep or kill a key component of the Affordable Care Act and decide who's eligible for the subsidy that are provided by the government to help people pay for their healthcare premium.

BERMAN: Yes, this ruling could affect as much as 6.4 million people. The other major issue - Gay Marriage. Do gay couples have a constitutional right to get married in the United States? And if not a side issue, the states need to recognize same sex marriages performed in states where it's currently legal.

I want to bring in our legal analyst, Paul Callan. Paul, you know, these are big decisions that have major silent impact. I'm always struck by the fact that the Supreme Court keeps these big decisions until the end. We thought they might come down today, but no. They're pushing them off until Thursday or Monday. Why the drama? Why do they feel the need to string us along?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a great question and as such odd behavior by the court. I mean, it's almost like they're running...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Always operates.

CALLAN: They're running the court like, you know, a TV program, where they give you, you know, a little hint of the story that's coming up. And I suppose if they announce it at the beginning of the term, nobody's going to be listening to their patent decisions and all of the other obscure stuff that they hand down as well. So I can't explain it John, except to say that the Supreme Court. And they can do whatever they want. And they don't let cameras into the courtroom. And they probably don't care too much about the press to begin with. So they handle it the way they want. And they have since the beginning of the republic. BOLDUAN: And on these two major issues, on one of them, same sex

marriage. It comes down to two questions as it relates to the 14th amendment - equal protection on the law. Where are the clues? We also do this leaning into big opinions. Where are the clues in their earlier opinions and where the justices could be leaning?

CALLAN: I think the big clue is in the split on the court. You have four liberals and four conservatives. And the person in the middle is Anthony Kennedy. He's the swing vote. Kennedy's last decision on gay marriage seemed to be more pro-gay marriage. That it wasn't on gay marriage specifically. But it was on a similar type of issue.

He seems to have leaned his last three decisions that had to do with these kinds of rights in a way that would suggest he may go for gay marriage. So I think that's a little bit of a tell that we maybe have a chance here. And the second thing of course is that the court's been waiting for this to shake itself out on a state level.

BOLDUAN: Right.

CALLAN: And we've seen a solid trend in favor of gay marriage on the state level. They don't want to be going against public opinion, strongly help public opinion on something as important as marriage. And I think the trend is in favor. So...

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: What's John Roberts on Obama Care. It was his vote last time around. That made Obama Care legal. Is he going to be the swing vote this time?

CALLAN: Yes I think you have to watch Roberts very carefully because he has the power under the commerce clause in that last decision to rule it unconstitutional. And he came up with this novel idea that it was a form taxation and you could - and that's, he used that as a handle to find it constitutional.

And this is a really, I mean, this is going to be a devastating blow. It could really destroy Obama Care. And I think politically, the republicans may be in as much trouble as the democrats because they're going to have the pieces all back together when thousands and maybe millions of people don't have coverage.

(CROSSTALK)

[11:55:00]

BOLDUAN: And the Obama Administration right now saying they have no plan B if this doesn't go the way they want.

BERMAN: Yes. Paul Callan, thanks so much.

CALLAN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thanks so much Paul. At just 25 years old, Taylor Swift is worth $200 million. But it's the power of her popularity, not the power of her pervs, that she's using to take on tech giant Apple. And it wasn't even a close fight I think.

BERMAN: Yes I think it's pretty powerful.

(CROSSTALK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. Our breaking news this hour, a major development in the manhunt for the two escaped killers from the upstate New York prison. Any minute now, we're going to get a news conference from law enforcement officials. DNA has been found in a cabin about 25 miles from the prison. We will hear much more from law enforcement shortly.

BOLDUAN: Bring this as soon as it happens and also happening now, in a very different story. The power of the Swift, the Taylor Swift. Tech giant Apple caving to Swift after she spoke out against the company.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: The company's promotion of a new service that will offer a free trial that would not pay during that trial period. They would not pay writers, producers or artists for that time. Swift threatened to pull her album "1989" from Apple Music because of this.

BERMAN: So Swift wrote in a blog post, "We don't ask you for free iPhones. Please don't ask us to provide you with our music for no compensation." Apple caved crumbled, cowered, ran away scared instead it will change its policy.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: It says they're going to pay artists even during the free trial. I mean, they changed their positions two seconds. Joining us to talk about this, CNN senior media correspondent Brian Stelter also the source of CNN's reliable sources. Taylor Swift man, she is the most powerful person in media right?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: I don't know if crumbled is - thereby I agree that this is a swift reversal. This is something that she spoke about on Sunday morning. By Sunday afternoon, they we're trying to get her on the phone. And she was over at Amsterdam on her world tour. So they had to wait until she was off the stage. But then a couple of hours after she gets off stage, Apple gets a hold of her. They tell her they're going to change the policy. It's so notable because they actually really thought through this policy. This was a big decision.

BOLDUAN: Did she really?

STELTER: They negotiated this with the music labels. And the labels didn't really like it. But none of them really stood up to Apple the way that Taylor Swift did. She said she was doing this on behalf of other younger artists. She doesn't need the money from this streaming service obviously.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: She said she was doing this because other artists were afraid to speak out.

BOLDUAN: So is it more surprising that Apple caved? Or is this surprising that they didn't see this coming?

STELTER: It is shocking they didn't see it coming. This is a PR mistake for them. But they're turning back bad PR into good PR. Obviously now they've turned this into a good moment. This service launches at the end of the month. They want to compete with Spotify and all the rest. Remember Taylor is not on Spotify right now. So to have her album is going to be crucial. She has not officially said she'll be on the service yet. So she's holding out maybe a little longer. Maybe making her seize the contract language or something before she commits.

BERMAN: That's 30 seconds left. Brian, you know, I joke about how powerful she is but what scared Apple? I mean, what was so threatening about Taylor Swift?

STELTER: The Swifties. All of her fans. They call themselves Swifties. She has 10,000 of retweets and Tumblr likes and Facebook comments. They created such momentum on Sunday. Apple, to their credit, knew they had to act fast.

BOLDUAN: She's not shaking this one off.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: You're talking about the Swifties as if you are not one.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: I was singing Bad Blood all this morning getting ready for this segment.

BERMAN: All right. All right Brian, thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: All right Brian, thank you so much. And you can just - a quick note, you can see Brian every Sunday at 11 am. Thank you all for joining us at this hour.

BERMAN: Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield picks up with major news on the New York manhunt right now.

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