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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Breaking News: DNA From Two Escaped Killers Found Near Cabin In New York; New Evidence Online Suggests Charleston Shooter Was Essentially Self-Radicalized Terrorist; Obama Gets Real About Race. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00]

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: It's awesome for him. That's just insane. And I got to give him back his green jacket. I borrowed it. Andy Scholes, thank you. Thank you so much. And thanks to all of you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "At this Hour" with Berman and Bolduan will start now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Breaking news, DNA from two escaped killers found near a cabin in New York. So how close are authorities now to capturing the fugitives?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: A twisted hate-filled path to evil. What appears to be the Charleston killer's racist online manifesto, new evidence that he could essentially be a self-radicalized terrorist.

BOLDUAN: It's a word so ugly and offensive that many people won't say it, but President Obama does not mince words using the "n" word while talking about racism in America today. We have the interview.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman. We do have breaking news this morning in the search for two ruthless killers on the run. DNA from David Sweat and Richard Matt has been found in a cabin about 20 miles from the prison.

This is according to two law enforcement sources. We're expecting a news conference in just a few minutes from New York state police. The search now centers around that cabin which is in Franklin county. The district attorney tells CNN that a witness reported a burglary at the cabin and then someone running into the woods.

BOLDUAN: So they've narrowed the manhunt now to Owls Head, the Owls Head, New York area, just west of the prison. Sources say that this is - that what they're looking at are really a rural, heavily wooded area. And that is where our Sara Ganim is monitoring all of the police activity this morning for us.

So Sara, what are you seeing?

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning John and Kate. Yes, this is an area that police and search teams converged on late last night. We saw about 100 police vehicles here last night, all-terrain vehicles going into woods, following trails. Also tactical search teams on the ground as well. The activity, the visible activity, seems to have

died down a little bit this morning.

You can see behind me, there's actually a car, a vehicle car checkpoint. They've set up a perimeter, but we know they're searching in the wooded areas. This is the Adirondacks in upstate New York. So there are a lot of unoccupied seasonal cabins, a lot of biking trails, hiking trails, the kinds of things that searches have been focused on since the beginning, since more than two weeks ago when these inmates escaped.

We do know from talking to the district attorney this morning that the lead that led them here was a witness who was checking on a vacation cabin in the woods for a friend, and saw a man running out the back door. The cabin was clearly burglarized and two law enforcement sources now confirming to CNN that items that were removed, personal items removed from the cabin, had the DNA of both of those missing escapees, convicted murders. Their DNA was a match for personal items found inside the cabin.

Now, this is important, John and Kate, because all of the other unconfirmed sightings that have led up to this point in the last couple of days, there have been several of them, some of them closer to the Pennsylvania border with New York. Those ones were simply sightings, people seeing men walking, in some cases, along railroad tracks that match the description of these two men. But this is the first time in a long time that physical evidence has linked, has been linked to these two escapees, John and Kate.

BOLDUAN: And it sure could be a big break for all of the law enforcement who have been scouring these areas for, I think, to their 17th day now. Sara Ganim, thank you so much.

Let's discuss this potentially major development and much more on this more than two-week search for the fugitives with Phil Lerman, former co-executive producer of America's Most Wanted."

Phil, it's great to see you once again. So tell me, what do you make of this? I mean, do we call it a break, the fact they've found - they've linked this DNA to the, to the fugitives?

PHIL LERMAN, FORMER CO-EXECUTIVE PRODUCER "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED": Well, obviously this is a huge break in the case. You have to think of this as though we're back at day one now. On day one of this, we had a perimeter set up with people 70 feet apart from each other, cordoning off the area around where the fugitives had escaped.

Now we're back to that point. We're maybe 24, 36 hours away from the point where we know exactly where they were. So they can set up that perimeter again, and they can start this again. They obviously slipped through the first one. There's no question about that. But now that we know that they slipped through the first one, I think there's a much better chance that we're going to keep this perimeter a little longer than we kept the first one. And perhaps that will be the thing that breaks this case.

BERMAN: This tells us a lot. This tells us they were there. They were in this cabin. It tells us roughly when they were there. They saw them running, or at least one of them running from the cabin over the weekend. It also tells us, Phil, that they were together, at least when they were in the cabin. The DNA from both of them was found there. What do you make of that?

LERMAN: Well, we've been saying all along that we thought that these two guys were together. It seems really clear that Matt is the ring leader here, the older guy. He's the one who seems to be the one who probably engineered the whole business in the first place. And I think we've seen this a lot of times on "America's Most Wanted," that these guys will stick together to help each other out.

[00:11:05]

The sightings down at the border, down by Pennsylvania were clearly incorrect. God bless Chuck Schumer. I love him, but, you know, this whole idea he's been putting out there that the guys have clearly been running all over the state, because we have sightings all over the state. That's not the case. The police have to check out every lead. It's not that the investigation shifted to the border. Some police were checking out those sightings at the border as they should have. Police have never given up the search up here in the woods, up around Dannemora. And clearly these guys did never get any further than on foot. They're not more than what is it, 30, 40 miles away.

So I think that the fact they're together, the fact that we know that they're together, and the fact they're not that far from where they started, tells us a lot about how they've been getting - how they' been getting along so far, and what we can expect from them from here on out.

BOLDUAN: Well, and now I want to get your take on what you expect, you expect from here on out because one thing that this kind of does suggest is that they don't have anyone - they don't really have anyone helping them on the outside.

The fact that this cabin was clearly burglarized according to the witness, they needed stuff. They're out there. They're now to the point where they need things, no matter what it is that they went in to get. What more does that tell you?

LERMAN: Well I, by coincidence, I was up in upstate New York driving around this weekend. And you go down those rolling hills for miles and miles and you see all of these vacation homes that are - nobody's there right now. They're not abandoned and they're not cabins. They're homes that these guys have - they found a jar of peanut butter and a jug of water in a vacation home. It's probably not the only vacation home that's unoccupied right now with some peanut butter and water in it. So that's the one thing we can go on and that's for the police. But we have to remember that as the media, it's our job to remember that the other thing they might be doing is trying to slip into urban areas, trying to get into a 7-eleven. Maybe they found a $20 bill in one of these cabins. They might be going in and out. And we have to emphasize the clues.

As often as we can, we have to remind people that Sweat has the IFB, Ink For Blood tattoo on his right hand. He has green eyes. As often as we talk about the woman who helped them escape, and how he made her feel special - how Matt made her feel special. We should be reminding people that he has green eyes. Matt has hazel eyes.

Some guy's working at a 7-eleven is going to have somebody walk in and see those green eyes and say "Wait, I heard that on TV. That might be the guy." What we used to do at "America's Most Wanted," the police have to keep those two photos that you have up right now. That's their official photos. But as the media, we used to go a little further. We take the beard off one guy, put it on the other.

It took them weeks to release those age-enhanced photos. The two you have up there, those are not the most recent. That's what they think they look like now but we could take the chance and play around with them, and photoshop, and sometimes those were the clues that would help catch fugitives. So the media can help in those kinds of ways, focusing people on the things that might help sight them - might help people who sight them, recognize them once they do, if they do slip into an urban area.

BERMAN: Phil Lerman, thanks so much. Let's hope this is a break. Let's hope they are closing in on these two escapees right now. Phil Lerman, thanks so much.

Coming up for us, a symbol of hatred or heritage. The confederate flag still flies on the grounds in the South Carolina state capital, in the aftermath of the tragedy motivated by hate. Should it really remain there?

BOLDUAN: President Obama speaking bluntly about race in America. He uses the "n" word to make his point. So what is his message?

BERMAN: Then all hail Taylor Swift. The artist has conquered the charts and has now vanquished Apple. One of the most powerful companies on earth crumbles before her glare. Are there no limits to her power?

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[00:11:10]

BERMAN: New this morning, investigators are looking into a website registered to the Charleston church shooter. It's full of disturbing photos of that man posing with guns and desecrating the American flag.

BOLDUAN: It also contains a 2,000-word racist manifesto detailing his thoughts on white supremacy. Manifesto ends with what Roof calls an explanation for why he gunned down nine people at Emanuel AME church in Charleston. Manifesto reads this in part - "We have no skin heads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the Internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world," he says. "And I guess that has to be me." The words of Dylann Roof, they believe. We should note that though CNN cannot independently confirm that Dylann Roof is the author of the manifesto but the website is registered to him.

Joining us now to discuss all of this, Alina Machado is with us with more on that manifesto, and also Mike German, former FBI special agent, who has infiltrated white supremacist groups. Alina, first to you, you have much more on this man's twisted logic.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's no doubt about it. The 2,000 words in this manifesto incredibly disturbing. In it, he talks a lot about blacks and other minorities in a very disparaging way. We're not going to get into that. There are some key points though in this manifesto that if in fact it comes out that Dylann Roof wrote this, it does shed some insight into maybe why he chose the city of Charleston, and also what may have been a turning point for him.

I want to read to you part of the manifesto that talks about the Trayvon Martin case, which seems to be key for him. It says in part, "The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case. I kept hearing and seeing his name, and eventually I decided to look him up. I read the Wikipedia article, and right away I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right."

The author also goes on and ends with, as you mentioned, an explanation. And in that explanation he talks about the city of Charleston. I want to read this to you. It says in part, "I have no choice. I am not in the position to alone go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to whites in the country."

Authorities say they are aware of this manifesto and, again, they are still trying to determine if Dylann Roof himself actually wrote it. John and Kate?

BERMAN: All right, Alina. Thanks so much. I want to bring in Mike German here. Mike, you've dealt so much with these white supremacist groups and people not unlike this young man. So we talk a lot about ISIS, we talk a lot about self-radicalized terrorists in the United States. Is this really the same thing? Is this young man a self- radicalized terrorist?

MIKE GERMAN, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Absolutely. It's exactly the same thing. That's part of the problem with the way the FBI and other law enforcement agencies politicize terrorism studies, where they look at the ideology rather than looking at the methodology.

[00:11:15]

This is a methodology that's very common there. In the white supremacist context, they actually produce manuals, the lone wolf manual, documents online, so somebody who has some frustration, some anger, maybe some hatred and is looking for a reason for it, a justification for it, they can find this material very easily.

Before there was the Internet, when I was undercover, we had newsletters and magazines and publications, there were rock concerts. This is a broad multilayered movement, and there are many different organizations, some of which actually have political sway.

So I think if we really want to understand how this type of terrorism works, we have to sort of take away the political label, understand how this type of activity takes place, how these lone wolves activate and how...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: So how does it, in your experience, from what you've experienced in going undercover and infiltrating these hate groups, what pushes someone from being hate-filled racist to being a terrorist?

GERMAN: Many times it's opportunity, where you'll see somebody who has these ideas and they're involved with a small group of others who share similar ideas, or they come across a group that's already active. And then it's just a matter of whether they get weapons, and I think when people are looking at something like this, what you have to pay attention to is when somebody makes a specific warning. That's something that you should take seriously and particularly if they then obtain weapons. That's something that clearly needs to be reported to authorities.

BERMAN: What's the goal of these groups that are putting on these websites, that are putting out these pamphlets? Are they looking to develop, to build?

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Because he cites one specifically.

BERMAN: Either the council of conservative citizens, I believe. Are they looking to build young killers?

GERMAN: I don't think those groups are actually supporting violence. You know, certainly they're supporting a political ideology that would suppress African-American political and social activity. And that's what we've seen through the years. I mean, well, you don't have to swing a cat in South Carolina to find racist symbols.

So, you know, there is a political/social status quo that they are trying to maintain and move back to. That's why you see a lot of the historical symbols whether it's the confederate flag or the Rhodesia flag or South Africa flag. So this is a political movement and this is an act of political violence we need to treat like we would any other act of political violence.

BOLDUAN: Just amazing though when you read this manifesto and hope no one really wants to read it or has to read it. That's for sure because his words are out there. Great to see you. Thanks so much Mike. We really appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

GERMAN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: So it is definitely not something you expect to hear from the president of the United States. So why then did President Obama use the "n" word in a new interview? We have that ahead.

BERMAN: Also, we're awaiting a news conference from New York officials on the manhunt for two ruthless killers. Their DNA found inside a cabin, a potential breakthrough in the manhunt. We'll bring you new details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:11:20]

BERMAN: All right. New this morning, President Obama used the "n" word. He said it while talking about the renewed debate over racism in the United States. This, of course, after the shootings in Charleston.

BOLDUAN: And he did not censor himself at all. The president made his comment in an interview with comedian Marc Maron, who hosts a very popular podcast. We're going to play you the president's comments as he said them. A reminder, this is a word that many find offensive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, discrimination in almost every institution of our lives, you know, that casts a long shadow. And that's still part of our DNA that's passed on. We're not cured of it.

MARC MARON, COMEDIAN: Racism?

OBAMA: Racism. We are not cured of it. Clearly, and it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. We have - societies don't overnight completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining us now Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator and host of HuffPost Live as well as CNN commentator, and New York Times columnist Charles Blow joining us as well. Great to see you both. Charles, I think we can all agree it's pretty surprising and pretty jarring to hear any president use the "n" word. What did you think of it?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the use of the "n" word is all about context, right? Here he's using it to make a point. As a person who deals with language all the time, I'm a writer, you use it in certain contexts because it is illustrative of the point. I wrote a book. I used the word several times because it was used to me, I'm using it in a literary context. I'm using it in a historical context.

I think that that is very fair. It's also important to put into context that he is not first president to use the "n" word, with listed in Nixon tapes. He uses it is multiple times and it is not in any sort of instructive context about, you know, trying to put racism into context. And I think that if focusing on the word itself in this case takes away from the larger point which is an incredibly important one, which is that articulation is not necessarily the defining markers of racism is what he's saying. That we have to now construct a new language and dialogue about what racism looked like that goes beyond articulation.

That is part of the reason that we cannot get convictions or even charges on civil rights violations now, because those laws are written around overt expressions and articulations, and if there are none, people - we can't prove the kind of stuff conscious stuff, and structural stuff. And I think that is his bigger point, and it's incredibly point and kind of lost on the "n" word.

BERMAN: He's talking about big things here. Marc Lamont Hill, I want to check in with you. What did you hear? Because what I heard is a president, in some ways, talking about a race, I think the way he's wanted to talk about it for a long time now and sometimes has been constrained.

[00:11:25]

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This has been the sort of fantasy of many people on the left and many people who have critical race perspectives is that a black president would have the capacity and the authority to identify issues of race, to talk about the intractability of racism in America, and to be able to have an honest conversation about things not just like the "n" word, but about white supremacy, about these, about structural injustice and so forth.

I was excited by that. And so to me it's puzzling that to Charles' point, you know, we're, we get distracted by this "n" word and not by the thing that he said to me which is the most interesting, which is that racism hasn't gone anywhere, even if, even if there has been generational progress. I think that's powerful, not him using the "n" word for heuristic purposes. You know, that for me is most interesting.

BOLDUAN: Marc, also, do you think kind of to John's point, do you think the Barack Obama of 2008 or 2009 would have ever felt comfortable going out and saying something like this, being so blunt?

HILL: No, I mean, Barack Obama is a politician. And Barack Obama is a great politician as he reminded us, he's been elected twice. And part of how he has done that is by avoiding the race question in ways that some of us would have preferred. President Obama always uses a language of balance and, you know, equating the anxieties of black people with the anxieties of white people, the anxieties of the people in Ferguson with the police in Ferguson. Always using this language of equivalency, which many of us have found dangerous.

He's talked about race but always through the lens of racial progress. To identify that race is an intractable problem in America, is new and it's something that only somebody in his last two years can do. It doesn't necessarily speak to a moral character to me, but it does suggest a wise political calculation.

BERMAN: We're having this high-minded intellectual discussion here. I was - Charles, you're telling me you were - I was a little bit surprised when I heard it. When I pressed play on the computer and I heard him use that word, I frankly was surprised.

BLOW: Well, and I guess I wasn't. I just, I believed that it is, it is completely contextual when you use it in terms of...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Nothing bad or good...

BLOW: I'm saying as well because I've heard it since the time I was a child both in ways that were meant to harm me and also in ways that people, kind of, in group adopt language in ways that try to neutralize the sting of it. I'm not necessarily as shocked by people when people use it. What I am shocked by is motivation, right? When I know that someone is trying to be harmful, that is shocking to me because it's like, why would you even try to be - why would you do that?

But when I know that someone is not trying to be harmful, and I hear it in the context of someone trying to explain, as Marc said, the intractability of racism, it doesn't shock me in the least. When I heard Nixon on those tapes saying the "n" word, that to me was shocking.

BERMAN: Fair point.

BOLDUAN: It's a very interesting interview and very important. I mean, that goes without saying, the importance of discussion we're having. But that in press of the president came out to say it. Charles, it's great to see you. Marc, thank you so much.

HILL: Pleasure.

BERMAN: (Governor Frost) could this be the break the police have been waiting for? There was a cabin that was broken into upstate New York. And now investigators have found DNA of the two escaped ruthless killers. We have an update from police in just a little bit.

BOLDUAN: And South Carolina's governor says now is not the time for the debate, but our next guest says now is exactly the time to take it on. We're talking about the debate over the confederate flag still flying on the South Carolina state capitol grounds.

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