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Dylann Roof Confesses to Shooting Nine in Emanuel AME Church; Charleston Mass Shooting Revives Flag Debate; Clinton Talks Tough on Race, Guns in U.S. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired June 20, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[16:01:05] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: It is 4:00 here on the east coast. I'm Poppy Harlow. Thanks for joining me.

We begin in Charleston, South Carolina, where nine people were massacred earlier this week. We are also learning that it is no longer being considered a crime scene. Police telling us just a short time ago they have completed their work at the church, their investigation there, and they say this house of worship will be open for tomorrow morning's Sunday service.

Also, we're learning that it looks like these may be the words of a racist killer. A Web site registered under the name Dylann Roof contains a long essay that upholds racist extremism and violence. Also, you are looking at pictures, very disturbing pictures of Dylann Roof that ran right alongside that Web site.

Let's go live to Charleston, South Carolina. Our Alina Machado is there along with our Martin Savidge.

And Martin, let me begin with you. Just learning today that the church is going to open its doors for that Sunday service tomorrow morning. I can only imagine what that is going to be like. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, a lot of us are trying

to picture that, too. We envision that the streets are going to be absolutely filled because this is likely to have a congregation that is the entire city, trying to show support, trying to heal and of course, to celebrate the fact that this church is no longer a crime scene.

That's already been lifted. The charlotte police say that happened some time ago so the police tape has been removed. It's now officially back in the hands of the parish itself. It should be pointed out that what has taken place inside, we are told, is that victims' families have been allowed to go in and visit and to see the church as it is now, and so they have been paying their respects in that way.

But tomorrow morning, 9:30 is when the service is going to be held. There will be cameras, at least a pool camera that will be allowed inside because they realize the tragedy, the terrorist attack that occurred here has deeply impacted an entire nation so everyone from California to Maine will likely in some way want to be in the pews and thanks to the camera, they will be able to do that, Poppy.

HARLOW: And we will carry that service for you live tomorrow here on CNN at 9:30 in the morning so that you can see it. Our Jake Tapper will be there as well for his program.

Martin, the people there, we see this line of people outside of the church constantly to pay their respects. What are some of the stories they're telling you that are really sticking with you?

SAVIDGE: You have a lot of people of course who come here, some come to worship, some come to speak. It's really become a sort of community sounding board. It is also a place for people who are openly grieving. You see embracing, you see tears and when people turn to try to talk to you, their words start to come out, and then you see them break down.

The emotion, the raw emotion, the shock is still very, very evident here. There was one man who I went up to and was speaking to, Arthur Hurd, and the story was just pouring out of him. And then it became quite clear to me he is the husband of Cynthia Hurd. And she was among the victims who was murdered inside that church. He is in -- he works on board a ship for the department of justice. He was overseas. He was notified of his wife's death. He was recalling the last time he spoke to her on the phone, it was a satellite phone. And just before he hung up she said to him tell me you love me and she made him repeat it three times.

He was also planning for her birthday. He's ordered the birthday cake. Her birthday is tomorrow. That cake will never be collected. It was just a very, very painful personal story to hear. Just one victim recounting a tremendous loss that a whole community is really grieving over - Poppy.

HARLOW: The whole country grieving right alongside them.

Martin Savidge, thank you for that.

Alina, let's talk about this disturbing manifesto that has just surfaced online. It appears, although CNN cannot confirm its authenticity, it appears to have been written before the shooting by Dylann Roof. And it hints at why he may have chosen this church to carry out this heinous crime. What does it say?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, as you mentioned, it is absolutely disturbing. It is also very long and it makes very inflammatory remarks for most of it, especially regarding blacks and other minorities.

But as you mentioned, in this manifesto, the author does talk about Charleston and I want to read it to you. It's actually at the end of the manifesto.

And in it, it says, I have no choice. I am not in the position to alone go into the ghetto and fight. I choose Charleston, I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the Internet. Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world and I guess that has to be me.

Now again, we want to reiterate that CNN has not been able to authenticate this. We don't know that this is definitively Dylann Roof talking. A law enforcement official has said that the FBI is taking a close look at this document and they're working to see if in fact this was authored by Dylann Roof - Poppy.

HARLOW: Incredibly disturbing to read. Thank you for the reporting as well.

Let's talk more about this with Matthew Horace. He is with me. He is former ATF. Also with me, former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes.

Tom, let's take a look. If we just break down some of the numbers here from the FBI, it's incredibly disturbing. The statistics from crime reports across the country in 2013, what law enforcement agencies found is that of more than 3,000 single bias racially motivated hate crimes, more than 60 percent, take a look, I think we have a graphic to show you here, 60 percent were motivated by anti- black or anti-American bias. What does this tell us?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It just tells us that there is racism alive and well out there. It also tells us that there is, you know, a greater likelihood of whites that think that, to be around black people, to be able to carry out these acts. They are not going to in all corners of the U.S. constantly see people that look like they're from other groups that are also on their hate list, but in the case of blacks, you know, they are more likely to interact and encounter being around black people. So it's easier for them to carry out an attack.

HARLOW: I was stunned seeing those numbers. I want you guys both to listen to some sound coming in to us today

from FBI director James Comey talking about whether or not this should be considered technically a terrorist act. Listen.

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JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: I wouldn't, because of the way we define terrorism under the law. Terrorism is an act of violence done or threatened in order to try to influence a public body or the citizenry so it's more of a political act. And again, based on what I know so far, I don't see it as a political act. That doesn't make it any less horrific, the label, but terrorism has a definition under federal law.

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HARLOW: Matthew, you disagree with this.

MATTHEW HORACE WHO IS FORMER ATF: I respectfully disagree with our director Comey on this. Listen, throughout my federal career, I have seen the government, the FBI and other organizations, pursue terrorism cases for pipe bomb attacks in mailboxes, pipe bomb attacks and homes. This was meant to intimidate people. I received calls over the last 24 hours from several church organizations throughout the country. People are concerned. So this has raised everyone's awareness. It's caused people to be fearful about going into one of the very places where you shouldn't have to be fearful about incidents like this. That is one of the elements of terrorism.

HARLOW: It's interesting, Tom, we heard Tim Scott, representative from South Carolina saying yesterday, no gun law would have prevented this. Do you agree?

FUENTES: I would say no proposed gun law that we have ever talked about in recent times would have. You know, even after Sandy Hook elementary, the only discussion was whether to ban assault rifles. And that didn't happen, you know. And I had a daughter down the hall from the shootings at Virginia tech that could have been killed there when he went on a rampage and he bought two hand guns legitimately at a Roanoke, Virginia gun shop after a Virginia judge had ruled that he needs mental health care. And he still was able to buy that gun and he killed 32 people with two hand guns in that horrific attack in 2007. And even then, there has been no discussion of ever taking guns away from anybody.

HARLOW: Should there be?

FUENTES: Well, I think there should be discussion about who should carry these hand guns, who can get it and maybe it needs to be a little more robust. And then we run into the issues of a very pathetic, and inadequate mental health system in this country which means then inadequate mental health evaluation to be able to say this person should not be allowed to get a gun based on his mental health, much less criminal background.

HARLOW: Interesting, though, some folks are taking issue with the fact that we are even talking about was this a crazy person, a mentally unstable person and saying look, he drove 120 miles, preplanned, carried this out.

[16:10:02] HORACE: This was a calculated, cold, premeditated murder of nine people that was based on race. Nothing more, nothing less.

HARLOW: Guys, thank you very much for the perspective, Tom Fuentes and Matthew Horace.

Coming up, hate crime, terrorism, labels pinned to this awful tragedy. Is it both? And what do these legal terms mean for justice? That's next.

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[16:13:49] HARLOW: Dylann Roof sits in a Charleston jail in protective custody. He is on suicide watch. The 21-year-old has made his first court appearance. It happened yesterday, as he faces nine counts of murder and one count of firearm possession. This happened during the commission of that violent, violent massacre. His victims' families offered unbelievably their forgiveness to roof.

He remained largely silent except answering a few questions from the judge. His bail on firearms, on the firearms charge is set at $1 million. A separate bond hearing on the murder charges will come at a later date.

Let's talk about all of this with Danny Cevallos, criminal defense attorney and also Areva Martin, civil rights attorney.

Thank you both for being here.

And Areva, let me begin with you. You say no question about it, this is both a hate crime and terrorism.

AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Poppy. I think it's important to define what we're talking about when we talk about a hate crime and terrorism. First of all, the nine murders were committed and clearly he could be charged as he has been under South Carolina law for those murders and there's an enhancement ability under South Carolina law to seek the death penalty because two or more people were killed in the act.

But the importance of the hate crime and the terrorism act is it's bigger than the nine individuals who were killed. A hate crime says that these African-Americans were targeted and were killed simply because of their race. We know this because of the statements that were made in the church and the confession made by Roof, himself. And now what we're learning from this online manifesto.

It also sends a message that hate crimes will not be tolerated. Look, as African-Americans, if we can't be safe in black churches, where can we be safe? And that message has to be clear that you cannot target and kill African-Americans and you cannot disturb the sanctuary of the black church.

[16:15:40] HARLOW: And Danny, as we talk about that racist manifesto that has been found online, it appears to be likely written by Dylann Roof. It is accompanied by photos of him. However, CNN has not been able to authenticate it. It says horrific things like he has to carry out this attack, someone has to have the bravery, he says, to take it to the real world and I guess that is me. He says he was driven to this after reading about the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin case. What does this do to the investigation and really bringing him to full, full justice, seeing this?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We are seeing this a lot in criminal investigations and prosecutions which is using online rants, whether it be rap lyrics, pictures of tattoos, images on Facebook and manifestos like this as evidence and there's no first amendment bar against using that kind of language as evidence against this defendant. For example, it can go to not only his intent but it can go to his motive as well. And those could be critical pieces of evidence in establishing not only his intent but also eliminating the idea that this might be some sort of, for example, temporary insanity or something that just cropped up because of drug overdose or something like that.

So this is critical evidence. Law enforcement are getting very good at accessing it and using it. And as you said, not only do media have to authenticate it but legally there is a concept of authentication. Once authenticated if they can trace it back to this defendant, it can and will be used against him.

HARLOW: Areva, you are very concerned about the judge in this case, the judge who presided over this bond hearing. You say he is unequal in dispensing justice.

MARTIN: Yes, very concerned, Poppy, because I was concerned about the admonition that he gave before he allowed the family members of the victims to speak. He asked those family members as well as the nation to have empathy and sympathy for the shooter's family. And at the time there had not been a full investigation of that family.

We didn't know if that father had bought the gun that was used in the massacre of those nine individuals. We didn't know if the family was involved in the hatred and the racist rants that this young man carried out. So for that judge to suggest that we, the nation or that those relatives should have empathy for the shooter's family was particularly inappropriate. And you couple that with him making racist statements from the bench. We have learned that he used the "n" word in talking to a defendant in a bond hearing and that is completely inappropriate and suggests to me that he cannot be unbiased.

HARLOW: Yes, that was back in 2003.

Danny, quickly to you. Is this a judge that should precise over this case or any case?

CEVALLOS: Well, I mean, you can't just exclude a judge simply because you don't like what he said in a preamble to a hearing. But that being said, I do agree with Areva -- hold on.

HARLOW: I'm just saying what about the fact that he used the "n" word back in 2003 when speaking to an African-American defendant? What about that?

CEVALLOS: Yes. If he used it to address -- I don't know the facts of that, but if he actually called a defendant the "n" word then that is a pretty bad thing. There could have been another reason -- in testimony in hearings in court, you are often asked to repeat exactly what was said so if it's the "f" word, the "n" word, whatever it is. I don't know the facts of that.

If he actually addressed a defendant as the "n" word that sounds pretty problematic and I hope that would have been investigated. But I will agree with Areva that the statement he gave beforehand was probably inappropriate only because I don't think judges and U.S. attorneys and prosecutors when they make announcements that they should be making any sort of political statement. They should be addressing the facts before them and nothing else.

HARLOW: And just to be clear for our viewers because we are talking about someone here and what they said back in 2003. He said to an African-American defendant, he was quoting what he heard from a sheriff's deputy saying there are four kinds of people in this world, black people, white people, rednecks and then the "n" word. Lot of people took issue with that. It's inappropriate to say that to someone.

Danny Cevallos, Areva Martin, thanks for the discussion. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, also following this story very closely for you. How did two convicts escape for two weeks? How have these two men not been captured yet? And possibly not even sighted? Ahead, you will hear how they may have done it disguising their own identity, possibly, after escaping this maximum security prison in upstate New York.

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[16:23:05] HARLOW: All right, now to the latest on that huge manhunt for the two escaped murders in upstate New York. Right now, police are investigating two possible sightings that have been reported. Both of them happened in an area along the New York/Pennsylvania state line last weekend. But they did not get reported until days later and they just became public late yesterday. Adding to the difficulties in the search, it is very likely that David Sweat and Richard Matt have already tried to change their appearances.

CNN's Dan Simon reports.

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DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Imagining what the fugitives might look like after more than ten days is the job of a forensic artist.

GIL ZAMORA, FORENSIC ARTIST: I'm looking at what I consider immediate ways to di disguise a face.

SIMON: Gil Zamora received training from the FBI and has been doing these kind of sketches for more than 20 years.

You're a former police officer and a forensic artist. When you look at this case in New York, do you think that these guys have totally altered their identities?

ZAMORA: Well, I would say that that's probably a very good possibility. My experience has been that when they're out and they're trying to get away, they're going to do everything they can to disguise themselves and make sure that nobody recognizes them.

[16:25:12] SIMON: Zamora is not involved with the New York case, but we asked him to come up with some additional ways the fugitives might have changed their appearance, first Richard Matt. Here's the original and this is the altered creation.

This person could probably evade capture.

ZAMORA: I would say so, at least initially, definitely. I gave him what I considered a full beard. There's a possibility he could be dyeing his hair.

SIMON: And with some eye wear, it's clear the public would have a difficult time recognizing him.

ZAMORA: Well, I think they would think twice. I wouldn't say they would immediately pick him out.

SIMON: Now, David Sweat. This is the original mug. And this is how Zamora imagined what he would do.

ZAMORA: Changing the clothing and extending the facial hair, and then also adding some eyewear to distract people from looking at their eyes as well.

SIMON: Hair on both the face and head, he says, are the two main ways in which men could change their appearance. Just like Harrison Ford did in "the Fugitive."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't kill my wife!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care!

SIMON: These real life fugitives could be doing simple things to their faces and it's quite possible no one would spot them, at least not immediately. That's why all these photos could be instructive, or maybe even instrumental in cracking the case.

ZAMORA: I think anything that keeps the public aware and keeps this case alive for people to be on the lookout is extremely valuable.

SIMON: Dan Simon, CNN, San Jose, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Dan Simon, thank you for that. It is hard to overstate the impact of this tragedy on Charleston.

Ahead, the friend of one of the victims speaks to me about his dear friend's legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's Brian Taylor Urruela's job to motivate others as a personal trainer. But not long ago the 29-year-old need motivation himself. In 2006, Urruela was in the army, stationed in Iraq when his humvee hit two roadside bombs. He survived the blast but his right leg was severely injured.

BRYAN TAYLOR URRUELA, U.S. ARMY VETERAN: My leg was completely useless. I would never run again, never bike, never swim. We fought for two years. I had about 10 to 12 surgeries to try and fix it. They suggested elective amputation as an option.

GUPTA: After amputation surgery, Urruela had a tough time adjusting to civilian life.

URRUELA: I was planning on a 20-year career and that was over. That's when the PTSD hit me hard and started trying to drink the pain away. I didn't want to die but I didn't want to live anymore.

GUPTA: He got counseling. He hit the gym and started volunteering.

URRUELA: Took kind of the focus away from myself.

GUPTA: Urruela and two other veterans were inspired to start the nonprofit vet sports.

URRUELA: We help veterans transition back to civilian life through team sports and community involvement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basic support system. Another guy to my right and left has my back just like on the battlefield.

GUPTA: It's a camaraderie that heals.

URRUELA: I'm finally in a place where I'm genuinely recovered and happy.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:31:41] HARLOW: In Charleston, South Carolina the historic Emanuel AME Church will hold Sunday service tomorrow at 9:30 a.m.

One victim, Reverend Clementa Pinckney, his death is especially painful for a man who was his very close friend and his political advisor. In addition to serving as a minister, Pinckney was the youngest person ever elected to the South Carolina legislature. Let's talk about him, his life, his legacy with his good friend, Jason

Johnson, who is also a political science professor at Hiram College.

Thank you for being with me.

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR: Glad to be here, Poppy. Thank you.

HARLOW: What do you remember most about him?

JOHNSON: I remember a lot of the things that he taught me. I remember he had this huge booming smiley, pearly white teeth laugh, whenever I said something ridiculous that showed that I was from the city and didn't really understand the South.

Clem was a man who had a tremendous amount of love in his heart for his community. He was sophisticated. He was dedicated. He was both a political and a spiritual warrior and his loss, it goes beyond just being painful to me and painful to his family. It is a loss for the entire state of South Carolina.

HARLOW: There's one story that you talk about, you wrote this sort of beautiful memory of him and you say when he was running for office, you were running his campaign, you said we really got to get out there, we really got to raise more money. And he looked at the average income in his community, it was something like $14,000, and he didn't want to ask them for money.

JOHNSON: Yes. Yes. He was like, look, he's like I know people will give to me and then they won't make rent.

HARLOW: Yes.

JOHNSON: I know people will give to me and they won't get food.

So, he just wanted more volunteers. You never forget the first campaign that you run and you can never forget working with somebody like Clem Pinckney. I have worked with a lot of Republicans and Democrats in other campaigns. He's one of the best men I have ever met in my life.

HARLOW: What did he want to do most for the people he represented both in the faith community and his constituents as a member of the legislature?

JOHNSON: He wanted to show all the young men and women from his community that they could do it and that they could do it in South Carolina. A lot of people from the low country, certainly with Clem's level of skill and everything else like that, they are out of there. They leave South Carolina. They go to New York, they go to Atlanta.

But he wanted to dedicate his life there. He wasn't looking at the next political move. He wasn't looking at the next jump. Last time we talked was a couple of years ago, and he wasn't talking about, well, what am I going to do after I leave the state Senate. He wanted to be dedicated to that community. HARLOW: You wrote that you fear there will not be enough discussion

about how this attack was, quote, "a deeply personal and explicitly political attack on black lives and black power." Talk to me about that.

JOHNSON: Well, I look at a lot of the candidates that we have been hearing from over the last couple days and it's horrible. It's offensive. You know, this young man specifically said he was out to kill black people, that blacks are taking over, that he had to do something about that, that he wanted to start a race war, and yet you got candidates like Jeb Bush and Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee saying we don't know what this is about or we think this is an attack on faith. If you can be mad that President Obama didn't say terrorism about Benghazi, then we can be mad at candidates who refuse to call this terrorism or white supremacist attack.

HARLOW: So, what would he -- what would Reverend Pinckney want to happen in his legacy?

[16:35:03] JOHNSON: I got to be honest, I -- I don't think I would be fit to speak for the words that he could produce but I will tell you this -- he would want to see people keep working. He would be happy to see that the church is still open on Sunday. He would want people to stay dedicated to that community. He would want people to recognize that there is a place between being hurt, in pain, and still having collective spiritual action. I think that's one of the most tremendous legacies he will leave that hopefully the rest of the country will become familiar with.

HARLOW: What a remarkable man he was, and all of those nine victims were.

Jason Johnson, thanks for telling us a little bit more about your friend, sharing those stories with us.

JOHNSON: Thanks so much.

HARLOW: I'm very sorry for your loss.

JOHNSON: Thanks.

HARLOW: And for all of you watching, if you want to help the families of the victims killed in this tragedy, go to CNN.com/impact. You're going to see a lot of ways there where you can help both the victims' families and help some of those survivors. Again, that's CNN.com/impact.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, does the Confederate flag represent history or is it just an ugly reminder of the racism that still troubles this country? The topic even came up on Air Force One this week when White House spokesman Eric Schultz said, quote, "The president has said before he believes the Confederate flag belongs in a museum." [16:40:04] A "Take Down the Flag" rally gets under way at 6:00 Eastern tonight in Columbia, South Carolina. This as the state and the nation grieve over that massacre in South Carolina this week. The question about what to do with that flag is inescapable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I see the Confederate flag, my first thought is racism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have no issues with it. Just a flag.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's symbolic of what Charleston is hanging on to. I think it shouldn't really be hanging anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just remembrance of a time, a period in history. It has nothing to do with racism or hatred. It's just undying remembrance. If it's upsetting to so many people, then maybe it's time to take it down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think it's a racist symbol. I don't think it's a symbol we need to use. It's our past. And you know, I don't think it's a good symbol of our past but it is our past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it just encourages division and separation. When I see it, I think that, you know, a lot of times, some people are uneducated and really don't understand a lot about what it means to be a community, what it means to be a people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's still out there because you have individuals out there that basically don't want the public thinking they're racist but they are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Although it may have been an ugly time in our history it's still a part of our history, and good or bad, we need to honor that part as part of our heritage, I think the Confederacy, the Civil War, because it educated ourselves as a nation to make ourselves better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: The massacre this week has undeniable racial overtones given the shooter himself said he was out to start a race war and kill black people.

2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney tweeted about the flag today, saying, "Take down the Confederate flag at the South Carolina Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor the Charleston victims."

Also, current presidential candidate Jeb Bush added his voice. Quote, "My position on how to address the Confederate flag is clear. In Florida we acted, moving the flag from the state grounds to a museum where it belonged."

Let's talk about this with two people on opposite sides of the argument. Gordon Rhea is a historian and civil war author. His latest book is "Carrying the Flag: The History of Private Charles Wheldon, the Confederacy's Most Unlikely Hero." Also with me, Dan Coleman of the Sons of the Confederate Veterans.

Thank you both for being here.

Gordon, let me begin with you.

You authored six books about the civil war. You're a historian. You argue it is one thing for a private citizen to have a Confederate flag. It is a very different thing for the government to allow it to fly at the state house.

GORDON RHEA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It certainly is. That flag has to come down. The Confederate flag was a battle flag of the Confederacy and the Confederacy, of course, stood for the perpetuation of slavery, the expansion of slavery into territories and, of course, the principles of white supremacy. I'm a historian. I like to let historical figures speak for themselves.

If I could, just for a moment, the vice president of the Confederacy explained what the Confederate flag, the Confederacy was all about, when he said -- and I'm reading his words verbatim -- "The Confederacy's foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery, subordination to the superior race is its natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first in the history of the world based on this great physical, philosophical and moral truth."

We cannot have a flag of that kind of a nation flying over our state capitol or on our state capitol grounds. That's racism.

HARLOW: Dan, that is a quote from the cornerstone speech delivered in 1861 by Confederate vice president Alexander Stephens. You just heard Gordon read it.

Your reaction to that?

DAN COLEMAN, SONS OF CONFEDERATE VETERANS: Well, good afternoon, Ms. Harlow.

On behalf of the Sons of Confederate veterans, I would like to express all of our condolences, sympathies and let people know that our prayers go out to the victims' families and friends in South Carolina for this tragic event. This was something that was done by a very troubled young man and has no connection at all to our positions.

We are a non-racial, non-sectarian heritage preservation association. And our meetings are open to everyone who would like to come to our meetings regardless of race, color, creed or anything else.

Now, Mr. Rhea has just given you a statement by Vice President Stephens. However, let him give you a quote of the statement made by Abraham Lincoln that was very simple, very, very similar to that and he said that -- ask Mr. Rhea if he knows the statement I'm talking about.

[16:45:01] HARLOW: Well, I'd like to ask you --

RHEA: I have to hear it.

COLEMAN: I will be glad to give it to you. President Lincoln said that he was in favor of colonization, that he wanted to deport the black people from this country. He didn't believe that they would ever be able to work together. He believed that there was a superior race and an inferior race and that in his opinion the white people were the superior race and that they could never live together.

All of that is old but it is true that there was racism on both sides at the time, and the war was not fought to free the slaves by quotes of Lincoln himself, by Jefferson Davis. There were a lot of reasons for the war but that was not it.

HARLOW: Dan, you want this flag to continue to fly --

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: Yes, I do. The flag was flying over the capitol in Columbia about 15 years ago or so and there was a great turmoil about it at that time, and by agreement, the legislature there agreed that they would take the flag off the capitol, which is what certain people wanted, and that it would be flown on the grounds at the monument.

And now, it's 15 years later. This incident, this tragedy that has happened there has nothing to do with Confederate heritage.

HARLOW: But, Dan, let me ask you this. What it does have to do with is the fact that this flag hurts a lot of people. It hurts a lot of people of different races, and the Supreme Court this week just ruled that the state of Texas is allowed to reject license plates that have the Confederate flag on them. They believe the government should not be able to have that free speech. It's one thing for a private individual.

Why should this flag still fly when it hurts so many people after a racially motivated murder by a killer who said that he was out to kill black people and start a race war? Dan, why should it still fly there?

COLEMAN: The two things are not connected at all.

HARLOW: How are they not connected? How are they not connected when it is representative of what was fought for and that was the fight to ensure that slavery persisted in the South?

COLEMAN: That, I am sorry, Ms. Harlow, that's just not -- the war, if you look at Abraham Lincoln's statements, he said that the war was not fought to free the slaves but to put the flag back up. Ulysses S. Grant is quoted as saying that if he thought the war was fought to free the slaves, he would resign his commission and join -- offer his sword to the other side. Its Irish Confederate General Patrick Cleburne said if the South was not victorious in the struggle that our children would be taught by teachers from the other side and books written by the other side.

It's just really shameful the real true history of the Confederacy is not what is being taught to our children.

HARLOW: I want to give Gordon the last word -- Gordon.

RHEA: Yes. It's no accident that white supremacy organizations, those against the civil rights in the 1960s and unfortunately, even Mr. Roof, who is the gentleman who perpetrated the atrocities that brought us here today, loved to surround themselves with Confederate flags.

The Confederate flag is the symbol of racism. It's a symbol of white supremacy. These groups and people didn't select it just because it has pretty colors. They selected it because it was the national -- the battle flag of a nation dedicated to those very principles. We cannot have that at any site of government in our country. It's wrong.

HARLOW: Dan Coleman, Gordon Rhea, thank you for having this discussion. I appreciate it.

COLEMAN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Well, while America wrestles with what to do about gun control in this country, a presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, today making her position clear, spelling it out. We will talk about what it means for her race for the White House next.

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[16:52:19] HARLOW: In the wake of the deadly Charleston massacre, strong words today from Hillary Clinton, appearing at the U.S. Conference of Mayors in San Francisco. She is urging Americans to have a frank discussion about race.

Sunlen Serfaty joins me now from Palm Spring, California. The president is in California this weekend.

Sunlen, let's talk more about what Hillary Clinton said today. What stood out most to you?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, she really had some emotional and blunt words, Poppy, about what this shooting in Charleston reveals about the state of race in America. She said that it's really tempting to treat this as one isolated incident, but it's also time to admit that the nation's long struggle with race is far from over.

Here's Hillary Clinton earlier today in San Francisco.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know this is a difficult topic to talk about. I know that so many of us hoped that by electing our first black president we had turned the page on this chapter in our history. I know there are truths we don't like to say out loud or discuss with our children. But we have to. That's the only way we can possibly move forward together. Race remains a deep fault line in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And she did call for additional gun control steps to be taken while at the same time, though, admitting the political realities that politics has really poisoned this debate in the past -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Sunlen Serfaty, reporting from Palm Springs, California -- Sunlen, thank you for that.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with more news on the other side.

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[16:58:32] HARLOW: All right. American farmers have a new cash crop. We're talking about the avocado, and it is the subject of this week's "Traders". Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW (voice-over): Basking in the Mexican sunshine, avocados grow in fields like these all year round, making Mexico the world's biggest producer. Since 1997, free trade with the United States has flourished from 6,000 tons a year to 600,000 tons. It took time for all 50 U.S. states to allow the imports from south of the border. But now, Mexico is central to a cherished U.S. tradition, Guacamole munching during the Super Bowl which sees a jump in demand of around 80 percent.

Jorge Fernandez has been in the business 30 years.

JORGE FERNANDEZ, AVOCADO EXPORTER (through translator): The most important thing to market them correctly is to have all the right information, all the statistics. We also need to know what Americans celebrate, how many people watch the Super Bowl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mexico selects the avocado!

HARLOW: This year saw a watershed moment for the industry, its first Super Bowl advertisement. Exposure like this has boosted the brand.

Jorge Fernandez is keen to diversify by marketing the avocados as a luxury item.

FERNANDEZ: How many people does China have? 1.4 billion. How many people have the power to buy? Two hundred million?

Then, we have to let them know about this product because the people of lower economic margins will not be able to consume avocados. Why? Because of this price, when it comes to transport it, distribute it, all of those factors.