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Victim Family Attends Church Massacre Suspect's Court Appearance. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 19, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAMES GOSNELL, JUDGE, CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you very much. And thank you for being here today, sir.

Reverend DePayne (ph) Middleton Doctor.

Your name, please, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lafan (ph) Newton Brown.

GOSNELL: Thank you for being here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was my sister and I would like to thank you on behalf of my family for not allowing hate to win. For me, I am a work in progress and I am very angry. But one thing that she's always joined in our family with is that she taught me that we are the families that love built. We have no room for hate so we have to forgive. I pray God I won't be around when your judgment day comes with him. May God bless you.

GOSNELL: Thank you, ma'am.

Representative of the Reverend and Senator Clementa Pinckney? Is there a representative of the Pinckney family here today?

Thank you, ma'am.

Mr. Pennington, is there anything else you'd wish to tell the court?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at this time.

GOSNELL: Ms. Wilson, anything you'd like to tell the court, Ms. Wilson?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, Your Honor. I'd like to make it clear for those not familiar with our process, you don't have the authority to set bond on the murder charges, and so that's why you are not addressing those. We have the bond for the firearm charge. Regardless of what bond you set, the defendant will remain in custody.

GOSNELL: Yes, ma'am.

On the nine counts of murder, I do not have the authority to set bond on these charges. On the count -- one count of possession of a weapon during the commission of the crime, a violent crime, I'm setting your bond, young man, at $1 million. Is there anything else to come before this court today in regards to

this case? Hearing none, we stand concluded in this hearing. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Your Honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Thank you, everybody.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: So I really don't know what to make of this. I want to -- I don't know what to make of -- I don't know what to make of what the judge said in the beginning, which was very odd. Talk about the very emotional statements which really almost had us in tears here.

Sunny, this judge says, sitting in front of a group of all nine of the family members, they asked all nine family members to bring representatives for this bond hearing, and one of the first things out of his mouth is that Dylann Roof's family are victims in this? What is the hell is he talking about?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I've never seen, in a bond proceeding, a magistrate judge give any sort of speech --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Why even say that?

HOSTIN: -- and certainly not a speech that seems to -- I don't know, that seems to feel sorry for the defendant, the perpetrator's family. I've never seen anything like that. I thought that was really inappropriate.

LEMON: Go ahead, Bakari.

STATE REP. BAKARI SELLERS, (D), SOUTH CAROLINA & ATTORNEY: Let me tell you, I haven't been practicing law that long in South Carolina. I will tell you, I've never seen it in the courtroom at all. Just as a spectator, you know, it caught me off guard. I didn't know if I was going to give legal analysis or cry up here.

LEMON: Exactly.

BAKARI: For him to start off the hearing the way he did, it took me aback. I don't know that judge personally.

LEMON: Judge James Gosnell is the judge. He said I have the most confidence in the solicitor here, which is Scarlet Wilson.

BAKARI: I agree with that. That's fine.

LEMON: That's normal. But law enforcement -- but to come out, with all those people sitting there, emotionally, crying, just lost their loved ones two days ago, and to say also I want to talk to the suspect's family? I don't -- (CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: I don't think anybody understands it and I think it was also inappropriate for this defendant to be on videotape outside of the courtroom. You want victims' families to have the opportunity to look at someone in the eye.

LEMON: In the eye, right.

HOSTIN: And explain to them what their crime has done. And we knew that those families were going to be there.

LEMON: Their family members didn't --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hang on. Wait. Bakari, wait.

Their family members didn't get a chance to sit in that church via video with a bulletproof vest. They didn't know it was coming. He had an opportunity to face these families with a bulletproof vest on, what have you. He should have done it, I agree with Sunny.

[14:35:13] BAKARI: I'm not going to disagree with that. I don't want to give this judge and his statements too much air. I don't want to give too much air to him being in the courtroom, not being in the courtroom. But those statements that we heard from those families were very, very powerful.

LEMON: We're going to talk about that.

BAKARI: Very, very powerful.

LEMON: Beyond, again, the judge, you didn't know if you wanted to be -- to be upset or to be mad or to cry. When the first one -- I think the first representative that came up was from -- first, these are the victims. They asked all of them to be in court, Clementa Pinckney. We call him Clem. Sharonda Singleton, Tywanza Sanders, 07, Susie Jackson was 87. DePayne (ph) Middleton Doctor, 49; Myra Thompson, 59, and Daniel Simmons, 74.

Let's go back into the court.

GOSNELL: There are victims on this side of the family. No one would have thrown them into the whirlwind of events that they have been thrown into. We must find it in our heart at some point in time, not only to help those that are victims but to also help his family as well.

When it's all done and said, Scarlet Wilson and Ashley Pennington will have done the best job that they can do. Our law enforcement are the finest in this state and they will do their job honorably. I trust they will.

With that being said, we will move forward today with this hearing. Mr. Roof is charged with nine counts of murder and one count of possession of a weapon during the commission of a crime.

LEMON: OK. So again, this is all done via video link. It's done via cam. And they are repeating it.

HOSTIN: I'm shocked at the judge --

(CROSSTALK)

BAKARI: OK. So I was being way too cautious.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

BAKARI: I had to listen to him again and just say, I mean, there's a time and place for everything and sometimes we do act differently with the camera in our face but we need some respect and love.

LEMON: Listen, if we're going to be honest, we have to be honest about this conversation where there is so much hurt and pain and many people are outraged by this. Fine. The church community, we'll deal with that. Even the victims' families, even the ones who say I forgive you. I'm not probably that big of a person. If I was a member of a family involved in this, forgive would not be the first word out of my mouth.

HOSTIN: It goes to show you that these are God-fearing people, that these are people --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: God-fearing people are human as well, and that is very big of them.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: -- and forgiveness is, I think, a tenant of this community and for this woman to say she wanted God to forgive him and she also forgave him, that is the message that the community needs right now.

LEMON: I respect what she's saying. I respect what she says. That's a very big thing to do.

BAKARI: But you also -- taking this young man, this callous young man out of this situation, I challenge you to find one situation since you've been on the ground in Charleston of something other than people with open arms, people showing love and kindness. That's what you saw in the courtroom from those victims' families. We haven't seen anything but that.

HOSTIN: We've seen Charleston Strong.

BAKARI: We've seen Charleston Strong. We've seen South Carolina strong. We certainly have.

LEMON: I just -- and we're going to go back to New York in a second. Your statements were very poignant. To be angered or to cry.

(CROSSTALK)

BAKARI: -- or to cry.

LEMON: I think the statements by the judge were outrageous. And the families, those statements, these are God-fearing people. You're right.

My thing is, if you take the video that you see to the right of your video and put it in black and white, Sunny, during this -- it would look like we were looking at a scene from the 1950s and 1960s during the height of the civil rights movement and unrest in this country. It's just that now it's color, through the color of high-def but it's him, the way he spoke, yes, sir, I'm 21 years old, that same tone that we heard during the civil rights movement, we're hearing now.

HOSTIN: I think what is remarkable is his age, his youth and the amount of hatred that he has. I think Bernice King spoke and spoke with the words of her father saying, that as a society, given what has happened with this, we have to think about what produced a young man like this. We have to think about why he has that kind of hatred and why society produced him.

[14:40:09] LEMON: As we are talking, a hearing just wrapped up and there's a vigil going on and family members are gathering here at the church. The church is starting to open up and there you can see the outpouring of people who are supporting each other and the real meaning of religion and God, what it should mean.

BAKARI: I don't want to talk about Dylann anymore.

LEMON: Right.

BAKARI: He's had his time. He had his face on TV today. Let's talk about these nine people, what they meant to each other and to the communities and their families and let's let the justice system deal with him.

LEMON: As we get back to, Ana -- you'll get back to us here in South Carolina.

But, Ana, I want to show you this. This is the cover of "The Post Courier" today and it says, "The Unspeakable Happened in our Community" and it has the makeshift memorial our in front of this church.

Ana Cabrera, what an interesting hearing and what an interesting day here, a very emotional day not only for South Carolina but for the country.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. I'm having people tweet me saying that they got teary-eyed listening to that court appearance, particularly hearing from the family members who spoke today. We heard a lot of them crying as they talked about the hurt and pain that they are feeling, having lost their loved ones. We heard from the mother of Tywanza Sanders, the youngest victim, just 26 years old. Starting his life. He just graduated college.

And as Don mentioned, there was a lot of talk about forgiveness. Why? Because they did not want hate to consume them.

And I want to bring in a couple of other guests who are joining me now who are also listening in during that first court appearance of sorts, even though it was via video links.

Joining me now is the Reverend Calvin Butts, the Reverend of the Abyssinian Baptist Church. Also with me is Mark Geragos, who can talk more about the legal angle of all of this.

Calvin, I want to get to you first.

You heard about the talk of forgiveness. What was going through your mind? What struck you about that hearing?

DR. CALVIN BUTTS, REVEREND, ABYSSINIAN BAPTIST CHURCH: I thought that the pastor who is now deceased had done an excellent job and that is a major tenant and they exercise that beautifully. The next step is reconciliation, bringing the communities together. And I think there are a lot of people on the ground working to do. Of course, the final steps and I would praise for people to stand like that in the midst of this horrible tragedy and be able to declare that they forgive. They are angry. But at least they are not fettered by hate.

CABRERA: Calvin, this is personal for you, too. One of the victims in all of this was a patriarch, Clementa Pinckney. Does that hit home?

BUTTS: Of course, it hits home. Our sacred institutions are not safe from terrorism. Secondly, it let's you know that those persons, because he was a pastor but also a state representative, he was also a pastor in a church that led revolts against the institution of slavery. So this man's death is what most prophets have to pay. John the Baptist got his head cut off. Jesus was nailed to a tree. Martin Luther King was shot down. And Martin Luther King's mother was killed while playing the organ in a church. Churches are not sacred institutions removed from the violence. I think it would be helpful as we look at Reverend Pinckney, to remember that. It's a horrible way to bring to mind but it's true.

CABRERA: We do want to lift up the legacy and memory of those lives lost, those victims who were taken so innocently. All of them, contributing members of their community and of the country.

Going back to what we heard at that hearing, Mark, we heard the strange statement from the judge that came across with his own monologues to present that and particularly mentioning that the suspect in this case, this family were victims too. Have you heard anything like that?

[14:45:06] MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No. And look, I have -- I agree with the sentiment of the judge having defended people of heinous crimes, the family is collateral, but it has no place in the courtroom. What you just saw was a made-for-TV court appearance. First of all, to put him in that video arraignment so he could face the TV camera and then put the two officers in the flack jackets behind him is to give you a sense of safety. That was orchestrated and choreographed. You have the judge's statement, which is echoing what you said, to try to reconcile. But frankly, as somebody who celebrates the secular inside of a courtroom, it really has no place in the courtroom. That's why the judge's statement has no place in the courtroom. That was also orchestrated for the TV cameras so that he could try to start that process of reconciliation, but it's inappropriate in the courtroom.

Also, I understand that the victims' families want to express what they have to say in a bond hearing but let's not forget what just happened there. Set bond on the firearms charge.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Because he's not able to do it immediately.

GERAGOS: He has no authority as a magistrate to set bail on the murder charges. This was nothing more than kabuki theater for a made- for-tv appearance. It's not like having the victims' families getting up there persuaded him not to set bail. He has no authority.

CABRERA: And just the firearms charge is the $1 million. And October 23rd is a very long time.

GERAGOS: Their speedy trial rights is not similar to other court systems but it's clearly going to be a capital case so there's going to have to be all kinds of decisions made between now and then.

CABRERA: Mark Geragos, thank you for offering your thoughts and expertise.

I want to go back to Don in South Carolina now -- Don?

LEMON: Ana, people are walking by here where we are live.

Are you a resident of South Carolina?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

LEMON: People are just walking by and saying that they are outraged by this judge's statements. I'm sorry. It's tough. I don't want to be the judge and juror of this judge. But I think what he said is outrageous.

I'm going to bring somebody in.

You're from South Carolina?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

LEMON: What's your name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melanie Route (ph).

LEMON: And you heard the --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yeah. We were watching at home and we just thought it was absolutely ridiculous as well that he would want to take time at a beginning of something crazy like this to tell us to take time and think about his family being victims.

LEMON: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just crazy.

LEMON: Yeah. Come on up here. Come on. Is that your husband or your boyfriend?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, my boyfriend. We wanted to come over here and thank you for bringing that up because we felt the same way and thought it was outrageous that somebody would say that.

LEMON: Why do you think he would do that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole thing seemed inappropriate to have a bond hearing and have a speech at the beginning. It seems like they called the whole family in and it meant -- that meant a lot but then to bring up his family who wasn't present, that just seemed --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We're going to go live.

Thank you for joining us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for saying that.

LEMON: I appreciate you.

We're going to go live right now outside the courthouse where people are speaking. Let's go there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know what the other families are going through. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

[14:49:02) LEMON: OK, it's a little tough to hear out there. As you can see, it's emotional for people here. When people say that they can feel it, it's up to here, that's how palpable it is here. Every once in a while I guess for as normal as it can get, it kind of gets back to normal and you see tourists and people walking around and something like this will happen at a hearing or there will be a memorial of some type or something will come up on the news and it just brings it right back up with people. Everywhere that we have been going here, to the restaurants, gas stations, at our hotels, everyone wants to talk about it. And the newspapers this morning, "The Post Courier," which has a very moving front page, "The Post" has a very moving front page, people say I couldn't even look at the newspaper outside of my building. That's how close it touches home to people, some from South Carolina and others who are not.

We'll continue with our breaking news coverage and get you back to the courthouse and continue on here from South Carolina. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:54:49] LEMON: Back now with CNN's continuing coverage of the church massacre in Charleston. A bond hearing was held a short time ago for the 21-year-old shooter. The family members gave very emotional statements, mostly to the accused shooter. Some of them even saying that they for gave him.

And just to give you an idea of what is going on here, people are gathering in front of the church. They have opened the church back up. What we're looking at here, this is a parking lot and this is real. This is realness here. The cars you see in this parking lot belong to some of the victims. No one has come to get them. There was an alarm going off in one of the cars for quite a long time because there's no keys, no one to come get these cars, and I'm sure that's the last thing that family members are worrying about right now. So a parking lot that has dotted with cars that belong to victims of this horrible, horrible terrorist act that happened inside of this church.

But let's not forget about the victims here and their family members who are so emotional and eloquent in court.

Our Martin Savidge was there.

Martin, some people there at the courthouse have been coming up and speaking to you. What are they telling you?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Essentially, the same thing that they said inside of the courtroom there. One, they wanted to honor their family member who died as a result of this horrific attack. On top of that, that they would forgive, which is almost beyond belief for us to understand, and that they will carry on as a family and as a community, but really, just to listen to that testimony. And you've all commented on it, how deeply moving it was. It was just astounding to hear what sounded like somebody's soul breaking as they speak to the suspect now. And the outpouring from their heart was just -- you couldn't even repeat it and do it justice. It's quite remarkable. We new it was coming. We had no idea how powerful overwhelmingly powerful it was.

LEMON: Martin, I don't know if there's anything around you other than media standing behind you?

MARTIN: We haven't seen as many come out as came in. Also going on is actually around the corner from where we are but Scarlett Wilson, the solicitor, prosecutor known to other people, who is apparently holding a news conference. We anticipate there's going to be some kind of an announcement. What kind of announcement that may be, some speculate it will be whether the death penalty will be applied in this particular case. She did not speak inside the courtroom. She was there. The judge offered that opportunity. She said at this time she will not speak. She is the one, of course, that will go forward and prosecute this case, at least on the local level. And then there's a chance that there's a federal prosecution as well, Don. But right now, it's pretty much quiet.

LEMON: Martin, it's just unbelievable to me. For those who have faith like that, the first family member said, I forgive you, I forgive you.

And, Ana Cabrera, that's probably the best way to get back to the Reverend Calvin Butts and let him give us a final thought on this.

CABRERA: Right. He's here with me, listening to the comments made in the courtroom.

And you had an interesting thought about that court hearing and what the judge said in his statement, and showing some sympathy for the suspect in this case. You said you weren't surprised to hear his words?

BUTTS: No. Racism is a problem in the nation but we have to remember where this is happening. Take a look at the age of the judge. This is South Carolina that still flies the Confederate Flag. This is South Carolina where that flag represents segregation. It represents separation of the races. And here is a young man from Lexington, South Carolina, that's the district represented by Joe Wilson, who called the African-American president of the United States a liar. So to see this kind of this appeal on behalf of a man who killed people in a church, you have to watch now, this is the racism that said you could be a slave on Monday after listening to a sermon on Sunday. This is part of the cultural history of this nation. So, no, the judge was terrible in his remarks. I agree with Don Lemon, absolutely out of whack.

But let us not be blindsided now by what we're dealing with here. A legacy of racial bigotry and hatred that's still haunts us.

CABRERA: And has bubbled to the surface. For so long it maybe has been under the surface after all these decades have passed, civil rights.

BUTTS: Yes, it's still there.