Return to Transcripts main page

DR. DREW

New Details About Sexual Relationship Between Prison Seamstress, Escaped Killer; Woman Accused of Faking Her Race. Aired 9:00p-10:00p ET

Aired June 15, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:00:12] DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight Breaking News, new details about the sexual relationship between the prison seamstress and one of the

escaped killers. Was she threatened into helping them?

Plus a woman is accused of faking her race and it all starts now with the Top of the Feed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Sources say Joyce Mitchell, in fact had a sexual relationship with a convicted killer, Richard Matt. He and fellow escapee David Sweat have

been on the run now for 10 days. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say Joyce Mitchell gave Richard Matt and David Sweat hacksaws, chisels, other tools they used in their stunning

prison break.

During two lengthy interviews with state police investigators that Ms. Mitchell had apparently outlined discussed that she had with one or more of

these inmates about a possible plot to kill her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joyce Mitchell could have just been one piece of this puzzle for these guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ve got a gut feeling there was a plan B and they`d, you know they used Joyce pretty good and she didn`t even realize it

and someone else picked these guys up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t give them favors they`re smarter than you are in terms of manipulation. If you give them an inch they`ll take a mile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We have also just learned that Joyce Mitchell may have been threatened by the convicts and feared she was in too deep in order to get

herself out of what she got herself into.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining me to discuss Emily Roberts, Psychotherapist, author of Express Yourself a Teen Girls Guide to Speaking Up and Being Who You Are.

Vanessa Barnett HipHollywood.com., and Mike Catherwood My Loveline and KBC Radio Co-Host.

Which of you ladies wants to address this? What is it that makes some of these women such great targets for these manipulators? Why don`t we hear

about this in men`s prisons?

VANESSA BARNETT: This lady just was the perfect...

PINSKY: We these women`s prisons, I just think you don`t hear men being manipulated by women (inaudible).

BARNETT: This woman was just the perfect candidate. She was obviously a little maybe insecure ...

PINSKY: A little?

BARNETT: She was a little dowdy, she was a little maybe unhappy with life. Look it was a perfect storm, they sought her out, they targeted her and

they knew they would get what they want.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Why are you smiling Mike?

CATHERWOOD: It`s a - I honestly I mean I`m always so blown away we always talk about whenever we do a story about George Zimmerman I say the same

thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CATHERWOOD: I have friends who are really good guys and handsome, and they work out and they can`t get laid to save their life.

(LAUGHTER)

CATHERWOOD: And yet somehow cop killers and ...

PINSKY: Murderers

CATHERWOOD: ... guys who dismember people ...

PINSKY: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: They can seem to find women no - just no problem.

PINSKY: (inaudible) opinion and we`ve got live women line up for guys behind bars. As a male you just can`t...

EMILY ROBERTS: If there`s a biological piece to it ...

PINSKY: What?

ROBERTS: I think there`s a biological piece, you want to hunter, you want a gatherer, you want a serial killer in her case.

PINSKY: What?

ROBERTS: You know I mean she

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: She wanted attention, she was starved for attention. She`s not the type of chic that`s going to get you know talked to by multiple guys.

These guys sought her out and was like hey.

PINSKY: And these guys are master manipulators, you heard in that piece. They shouldn`t even be communicating necessarily with guys like that `cause

they will. Remember when Jody Arias went to prison, the male guards were told do not speak to her because she`ll reel you in.

(LAUGHTER)

ROBERTS: I think she was a good victim though. She was obviously a good victim, she was manipulated very easily by them.

PINSKY: That`s right.

ROBERTS: And do I think she was threatened? No.

CATHERWOOD: I do get the sense though that they could sense who would be prime picking. `Cause those guys, they definitely ...

PINSKY: ... of course

CATHERWOOD: ... had something going for them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Of course they knew what they were getting in. A law enforcement source tells the Albany Times Union that Joyce Mitchell talked to the

prisoner about a plan to killer her own husband once she had helped them escape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUD)

PINSKY: I know. So is that - so they just go happily ever after Emily? Is that just all that was...

ROBERTS: Yes, clearly she was ....

PINSKY: ... going to go off into the sunset?

ROBERTS: (inaudible) she was very, very psychologically (inaudible) sound I think.

PINSKY: I think not.

BARNETT: I think she was disposable.

ROBERTS: Yes, absolutely.

BARNETT: I think they were going to kill her.

PINSKY: It`s possible. Mike, what do you think the husband is thinking now?

CATHERWOOD: Well how do you - yes, how do you mend this wound? That`s a really tough one you know over dinner to just be like oh hey can you pass

the salt, remember when you were going to have some convicts kill me ...

(LAUGHTER)

CATHERWOOD: ... anyway never mind.

ROBERTS: He`s the lucky one though she`s in prison now, or she`s in jail now.

PINSKY: She probably will be in prison but ...

CATHERWOOD: I`m shocked these guys haven`t killed each other.

PINSKY: They may have.

ROBERTS: Only a matter of time, right.

BARNETT: Only a matter of time this is going to go really bad. We may not catch them ever but they`ll take each other out, this is not going to end

happily ever after.

PINSKY: Mike, Vanessa knows too much it`s giving me the creeps.

(LAUGHTER)

CATHERWOOD: Yes, well I - there`s only a very small upside to this entire story and that it`s going to make an awesome movie in like 20 years.

PINSKY: On the phone ..

BARNETT: (inaudible) I`m sure.

PINSKY: As it pertains to this issue of women lining up for these guys behind bars, I - it`s hard for me to get my head around it as much as I

think I understand humans and humans behavior. I got on the phone Anna Harris, she married an inmate who had been incarcerated for 29 years. They

initially became pen pals. After Anna watched locked up ...

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: ... she then felt compelled to reach out to prisoners. So Anna help us understand what is so attractive about a guy that`s a violent

criminal held behind bars?

[21:05:06] ANNA, HARRIS: Well honestly I think it`s like any other attraction, you know.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: No, no. it`s not like any other attraction.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: It`s not, it`s hard to understand. Men aren`t attracted to women behind bars that`s - I don`t know if they are, are they Mike?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CATHERWOOD: Listen, to be fair men are attracted by hot women. It doesn`t ...

PINSKY: OK, so behind bars (inaudible)

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: ... matter what they do in life.

PINSKY: So Anna, I`m sorry I interrupted you. Please finish.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: No it`s fine. I mean like I said I mean a lot of people don`t agree and don`t understand it and that`s fine. You know it`s no different

than being in love with somebody as you`re on the outside. You`re taking a chance on somebody. And yes it is a bigger risk because yes these people

are, you know considered bad, they`ve done bad things and they deserve to go to prison when they went to prison. Regardless of the fact you know

it`s our choice and you know there`s - I don`t necessarily think that there`s any real attraction like to specifically men in prison. But yes, I

mean it`s stereotypical.

Obviously there`s going to be insecure women out there who you know find a man in prison who gives her the attention that she needs. That`s not

always the case. I mean they are (inaudible) they are stereotyped for a reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CATHERWOOD: Is it - maybe the fact that guys who are criminals they kind of play by their own rules. Is it that rebel nature that is appealing to

you?

BARNETT: No, I think the fact that he`s behind bars she knows he`s not cheating on her.

(LAUGHTER)

BARNETT: She can have her man in one stop and (inaudible)

PINSKY: You`re laughing about that Anna but there`s the

(CROSSTALK)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUD)

PINSKY: Hold on, Mike I`m going to let your comment. I know what you said. Anna, say that again.

HARRIS: I said you know yes, that`s exactly one of the things that happens, you know it`s like I said it`s not going to happen every single

time but it is part of probably why a lot of women are attracted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: But it doesn`t matter `cause at the end of the day like I said it`s their decision and the people - the fact that people are trying to

analyze it just because of this one thing that happened, I mean this is ...

PINSKY: Well this one thing that happened, I mean it`s a little bit of a some heavy thing that happened. Only certain kinds of people are able to

do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Oh yes, exactly (inaudible).

PINSKY: Let me , let me propose something else. Women, you mentioned biology. I mean women do tend to like the bad boys, the alpha male the

danger, if you had a dad like that especially you tend to be attracted like that. But now you can get that in a cage. You can get that so it`s

controlled and contained by somebody else and not only is he not going to stray in terms of cheating he`s not going to leave you, he`s just there.

So you get, you know you get the alpha male that may have been too dangerous and you get him contained. Is that sort of the? Does that make

sense (inaudible).

ROBERTS: And you get to sleep with him whenever you want.

PINSKY: That`s the only way I can understand it Anna.

HARRIS: Yes, well I mean like I said it`s not every case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: It does happen, but it happens on the outside just as much as it happens with somebody who`s in prison. Everyday, I mean there`s a reason

these people started out in real life out here, you know, they went to prison because of whatever they did, they got caught dah, da, dah, da, dah.

But you know the thing is that if I could the (inaudible)...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: If I took a chance on somebody out here, you know and ...

PINSKY: ... I understand that ...

HARRIS: ... I marry them and I`m married to them for 10 years and all of a sudden I wake up and he`s murdered somebody ...

PINSKY: Well not usually the case.

HARRIS: ... I mean I`m just taking a - I`m taking a chance on somebody who I know did something wrong in the past ...

PINSKY: No.

HARRIS: ... that I know - I believe has been rehabilitated. I could be wrong, but that`s fine, that`s my choice to make, you know.

PINSKY: I want to read - I want to read something from Facebook we got from a former corrections officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VDIEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And we`ll talk more about it in a bit but she, I think it`s a she, she says "inmates" - it`s Kathleen "inmates have nothing else to do but

observe and attempt to manipulate the people who supervise them." This is a little different than Anna`s situation but this is very much the

situation that`s the one we`ve been talking about.

"Techniques that work are shared, prisons are - prisoners are very aware of this human weakness that usually provided little counseling or training to

employees to help them realize and resist the psychological warfare."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So next, we`ll continue the conversation and later what is the truth about this woman`s race?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: One of her closest friends is here to discuss it with us. Exclusively, we`ll be right back.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUD)

(BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(END COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:13:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prisoners who are people skilled at manipulation and sweet talking and you know charming people are in a

situation where they have no power other than their ability to get to know somebody who has access to things.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): These are hardened criminals OK, a lot of them have very, very extensive histories, violent histories, and there`s a way that

they do have about charming women or anybody that they need to fulfill their own needs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are going to take advantage when they see a crack in the armor and they`re going to go for it. And these people you

know they`re manipulators, their predators.

PINSKY: I`m not buying anything you just said right there. (Inaudible).

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman had a plan I believe it in my heart that as time goes on we`re going to start finding out some things about her.

PINSKY: So was Joyce Mitchell granny manipulated or is she a mastermind behind the prison escape? I`m back with Emily, Vanessa, and Mike. In the

audience I have Larry Levine, he`s a former federal inmate himself, he`s also founder of Wall Street Prison Consultants.

So is she more calculating Larry than we thought or is she the unwitting victim of these manipulators?

LARRY LEVENE: She was lonely, they took advantage of her, she`s no mastermind. She could have been anybody in that prison. But these guys

were working with her, they moved in on her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEVENE: They got into her confidence, became her friend, hell she was sleeping with him as far as we know.

PINSKY: And there may have been information exchanged where she - you know they kept using that to manipulate her perhaps. Like maybe she knows

something that they have on her.

LEVELE: Well you find out things about staff, you work with them long enough, you can profile - I used to profile the staff to know how I can

manipulate them.

PINSKY: Did you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: What`d you get?

LEVENE: I mean I - extra phone calls, extra food, just stuff. You know I used to walk around one institution, I`d make a circuit, find out

information and exchange that with the staff at the end of the day so I was kind of like running things to a certain degree.

PINSKY: Wow, we have audience questions. Go right ahead ma`am.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I just wonder if she was really feeding her ego. Did she really want a captive audience, is that something that she really

needed?

PINSKY: Well I think - I think that`s what a lot of these women like is the danger with captivity. Larry you say yes.

LEVENE: Absolutely. She - OK on the outside let`s face it Drew would anybody really give her a second look.

ROBERTS: Ouch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

LEVENE: But inside ....

PINSKY: Vanessa says no.

(LEVENE): ... behind the wall she`s the princess.

PINSKY: Yes.

LEVENE: Oh you look beautiful today, that`s a nice sweater that you`re wearing. I mean how do you think they got her if indeed it`s the case they

got her to want to kill her husband. How do you think they got her to that point? I don`t even believe that. I think the news media and the feds and

everyone have it all wrong. This lade has changed her story. First, well they threatened to kill him; and then all of sudden it turned into a

contract kill. I don`t really believe a word she has said other than the fact that yes she did help them.

PINSKY: So it`s back to (Coromo`s) idea that she`s kind of involved more than just an unwitting - we do have other questions, go ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes I honestly don`t understand how a woman can really over look someone`s criminal activity.

PINSKY: Well you heard Anna, she was happy to overlook and sort of .

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Well there`s many layers of criminal activity.

CATHERWOOD: Yes. You know I`d be - I mean I`d be more than happy to forgive a guy who served his time you know on his fifth drug charge. But

if your dismembering bodies, like that - you know what are you going to be like - it`s pretty hard to overlook that you know.

PINSKY: Yes, and yet the guys that are terrible killers that have been famous are the ones that we hear about having women line up. What is a

matter with you guys?

HARRIS: Me, you don`t see me on those websites trying to get like criminal...

PINSKY: No I don`t see you but I know you`re there.

HARRIS: ... No I`m not.

CATHERWOOD: Men are grows through, but you have to admit at least we`re shallow enough to draw --- like we draw an even line. If you`re attractive

women it doesn`t matter what you do the irreprehensible things you may have done, if you`re the President of the United States. All that matters is

what you look like in the eyes of shallow men.

BARNETT: No, I`m more shocked that people still pick up the pen and write these guys. Like people are really writing letters to these people, that`s

shocking to me.

PINSKY: And is there something behind that psychologically?

HARRIS: Yes, I think it`s really pathetic but I think it`s also that these people also have a trauma history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: I`m going to throw it out there ...

PINSKY: So trauma again.

HARRIS: ... because they are a good victim, she made a good victim, she wasn`t the only female working there. She wasn`t at all.

PINSKY: Well I`m sure there were others.

CATHERWOOD: Every married straight woman I know though does complain about a lack of excitement.

HARRIS: Do you see them going to prison?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CATHERWOOD: No, no, no, no, I`m just saying ...

HARRIS: Looking up criminals no?

CATHERWOOD: One of the number one gripes I hear from a lot of women is that their relationship has lost excitement. And I`m not saying that you

need to go find a felon but I`m saying that maybe that is the draw.

HARRIS: Go find a therapist before you a felon, I think that`s a good idea.

PINSKY: Oh for sure. But Larry why don`t we ever hear, we don`t hear about it I assume it`s likely to occur in women`s prisons where men are

being, and women are...

LEVENE: Well, yes

PINSKY: Women can be very manipulative too, let`s face it.

LEVINE: I have a - I have an associate that works with me, Bruce Cameron retired from the Federal Prison system after 23 years. He worked in

women`s prisons. And they would come up to him several times a day. That`s a nice tie you`re wearing, nice shoes, nice coat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEVINE: He finally had to get a big black lesbian I mean to put these women in check just to get them off him because ...

PINSKY: But why don`t we hear about men falling victim to that?

LEVINE: They do.

PINSKY: If Mike is right?

LEVINE: Well they do, it`s just not in the news. This happens

CATHERWOOD: There is a glass ceiling in prison sex too?

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: To a certain degree there is. You know it`s interesting ...

CATHERWOOD: Awesome

LEVINE: If we can go back just a hair, it`ll take just a minute.

PINSKY: Yes.

LEVINE: I own a prison phone company where we provide discount calling for inmates and we have women that call in to set up phone service and well

what is your relationship to the inmate? I`m their fiancee. OK, great. I don`t want to tell these women well you know what there`s five other women

that also have serviced him, they`re also the fiancee.

PINSKY: Right, this is the risk they`re taking. They`re in massive denial about what these guys actually are. Other questions?

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes I just want to know what it says about a person human being, man or woman about them trying to pursue and foster a

relationship with someone who is emotionally and physically in a sense unavailable and much like a convicted killer.

PINSKY: What`s your - what`s your theory?

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I mean I just I can`t imagine that everything that`s going up there perfectly swell, not - it`s not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: It`s usually somebody who has very low self-esteem and somebody maybe was the victim at some other point in their life because.

PINSKY: Or abandoned.

HARRIS: Absolutely - definitely abandonment issues.

CATHERWOOD: Well in fairness though I mean a lot of people do that in the outside world as well. They seek out partners that they know there`s no

ability for that relationship to go any further.

HARRIS: Right.

CATHERWOOD: It kind of keeps them insulated in that safe.

BARNETT: But isn`t it an extra level of crazy for someone who`s going to take so much time driving to a prison. Like prisons are hell of a far.

They`re not close, they`re not around the corner.

(LAUGHING)

BARNETT: You`ve got to drive there, you`ve got to drive back.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUD)

PINSKY: The most popular theory on our Facebook page comes in from Tony he says "I don`t think these guys ever intended to meet up with Joyce

Mitchell, the real plan was for someone else to pick them up all along. She may have gone to the hospital after she`d realized she`d been duped."

Larry, do you agree with that?

LEVINE: Absolutely. And there`s a term for women like this. They call them prison widows.

HARRIS: Ahhh.

LEVINE: They`re there.

PINSKY: (Inaudible) Maybe

CATHERWOOD: That`s a great (inaudible) name.

LEVINE: They`re spending hundreds of hours, thousands of hours a month going - or a year to visit these men for an hour or two at a time and that

whole trip could take 48 hours, and the guys they`re safe as it was said before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:20:21] LEVINE: They know where they`re at, they know that they`re not - well they suspect they`re not carrying on with another woman except over

the phone.

PINSKY: Larry, if you know a woman or you are a woman who feels a sense of attraction to guys in prison what would your advice be to these ladies?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEVINE: That they should look for the hidden motive. They should look for the hidden agenda behind that.

PINSKY: `Cause it`s always there.

LEVINE: It`s always there. Well I get now since I do prison consulting I have what I call groupies these women that call me and want to fly me to

Vegas, go on cruises with me because of my past working in organized crime.

PINSKY: Sweet.

LEVINE: So I get it too.

PINSKY: Wow.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: I get it.

PINSKY: Thank you guys. Please stay with us for this next conversation because this one is - we`re going to have a lot of energy about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It`s been in the press. A woman accused of faking her race. And later a mother involved in a brawl at Wal-Mart now - there they are.

She`s charged with child neglect ...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Yes ...

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Details. There they go, back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUD)

(BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(END COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems like an easy question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are your parents, are they white?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But for Rachel Dolezal it was enough to make her run from a local reporter. For years the 37 year old has claimed she`s black

reinforcing that belief by posting pictures like this one from the Spokane NAACP Facebook page.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re confirming the truth. We are her birth parents and we do not understand why she feels it`s necessary to misrepresent her

ethnicity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have some news on Rachel Dolezal, the NAACP Leader at a center of a race controversy. She`s officially resigned from her

post.

[21:26:09] PINSKY: That happened today and this is a segment we call What The?

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: It`s a growing scandal over her race Rachel Dolezal resigned as President of Spokane Washington NAACP. I`m back with Emily, Vanessa, Mike.

Vanessa you`ve heard this story all day, what`s your thoughts?

BARNETT: I don`t think she should have resigned I will say that. If she was a real black girl she would have handled this completely different.

(LAUGHTER)

BARNETT: Completely different.

PINSKY: (Inaudible) black girl. I`ve been talking about radio and my friends and things all day to black women and black men and men are

completely dismissive of it. Like look she did some good work and don`t worry about it. And the women have been remarkably forgiving. I thought

they would furious that someone would usurp a history that is so hard fought, and claim it for her own.

BARNETT: Right, I understand that but the work that she did, the proof is in the pudding. She has her (receipts) she did great work in the

community. My biggest issue is you don`t have to lie to kick it. So don`t tell me your team macho when your hair is silky blond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

BARNETT: Don`t tell me you got beaten with slavery whips because that is going way to fare. She lied and lied and that`s the part that I`m upset

about.

CATHERWOOD: Vanessa brings up a very interesting point and I think that someone like her has such credibility within the African American community

being raised by adopted black parents in a mostly black community growing up. And so I don`t understand ...

PINSKY: Of Western Montana?

BARNETT: No, no her parents are white, they adopted four black kids.

PINSKY: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: Yes, OK, sorry.

BARNETT: (inaudible)

CATHERWOOD: I`m sorry in a family where she legitimately came from what could be considered a black family, I don`t understand why she would have

to lie about her actual biological birth. And like Vanessa said, I don`t think she needed to step down but the fact she refuses to apologize, that`s

what`s gross.

PINSKY: Let me bring in from the audience Rolonda Watts, host of Sundays with Rolonda Podcast. Rolonda, help us out with this. Are you forgiving

of this women are you angry, and if you`re not angry why aren`t you angry. And why is a white man angry?

(LAUGHTER)

ROLONDA WATTS: Dr. Drew, I`m with you I said what the?

PINSKY: Yes, right.

WATTS: Because it`s not new in America that people pass particularly in the African American community. Even in my own family we`ve got people ...

PINSKY: Your talking about people that claim privilege by passing as white?

WATTS: Blacks who pass as white.

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: Because to get the privilege, because life is easier for whatever reason. We rarely hearing of a white person passing as black.

PINSKY: Well in fact when people talk about it even like her brother says, I don`t know if you guys have that interview, but he talks about it being

like black face, I mean that`s a horrible.

WATTS: No, no, listen. I`m going to call her - there`s a part of me that wants to call her an honorary sister, Jackson Mississippi, Howard

University, the President of the NAACP, I mean come on ...

ROBERTS: But she lied

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WATTS: ...She`s an honoree sister in some way. But you do not have to lie to be a leader in race relations. The NAACP was also started by Jewish

people, it wasn`t just black people that started it.

PINSKY: Right, so she could have.

WATTS: She doesn`t have - it`s the lying that breaks her credibility that I think is the issue. And there may be some family issues we don`t know

about.

PINSKY: Or some mental health issues. Perhaps she`s actually delusional. Listen, there`s some - there`s some, I don`t know if you guys - the full

story`s not out I`ve been collecting some information she got busted for writing hate mail to herself and it`s a very strange story and I don`t have

all the details but I have a copy of the letter she wrote and it is - it reminds me of somebody with a multiple personality disorder.

HARRIS: I don`t think she`s got more of a delusional - you said it delusional but I also think that there`s more history on it for

(inaudible). She is craving this attention and she is doing everything she can to get this attention. She`s lying, she doesn`t have her family.

She`s making more - I mean think about this. She`s making attention at her.

PINSKY: So is it - negative attention.

HARRIS: Negative attention.

PINSKY: And dangerous attention. So is it such that we can`t even call it lying or do we - can we hold her accountable?

HARRIS: Oh no, she`s a master manipulative.

BARNETT: I think - I thinks she`s a liar.

WATTS: (Inaudible) question that`s also raised here - what does it mean to be black?

PINSKY: And by the way ...

WATTS: What does that mean?

PINSKY: Well that`s a huge question and in the day and age when people can declare themselves any gender, any said whatever, you know any number of

limbs (inaudible), is this all the same thing? Have we got ourselves in a weird predicament here with all that?

WATTS: It wasn`t that long ago, it may still be on the books that there was something called the, I think it was the 136 Rule in America. If you

had one drop of black blood you were black. Well guess what everybody`s black. I mean you know.

PINSKY: Because we are all out Africa....

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... because I please listen, we all have a little black in us. Well and so maybe that gene jumps out and it`s predominant in

her...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it runs out...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... feel of who she is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... wait it is, jump out within the last seven or eight years it didn`t jump out from birth she didn`t feel this connection

at birth this is something relatively refill...

PINSKY: And it jump life...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... in her life.

PINSKY: .... when it best serves. Nine years (ph).

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: : I`ve got a police doctor she turned right real well.

MIKE CATHERWOOD, LOVELINE CO-HOST: : Yeah, no. That`s a very good point because you pointed out that she not only attended but then pieces (ph) of

African-American studies at Howard University -- I mean what happens when a she received, you know, funding she receives some...

PINSKY: Right. That`s fraud.

CATHERWOOD: ... feedback.

PINSKY: That`s fraud.

CATHERWOOD: ... that I mean that really...

PINSKY: Fraud.

CATHERWOOD: ... she decided to be -- to identify as African-American when it best suited her, when it can get her a job when can it better get here

to be at least established credibility as an African-American studies teacher...

PINSKY: Yeah.

CATHERWOOD: ... you know, and that`s where I mean cause there`s nothing wrong when if -- if she would to come forward and say, "You know, I was

born white but I did if I culturally and I just feel more comfortable as an African-American." I don`t see anybody...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you see anybody has...

CATHERWOOD: ... have problem with that.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: What`s wrong with the garments (ph) of black?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of that. What there`s if it...

PINSKY: A lot of this what you`re talking about?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... well I think we`re -- with the music crossing over the pop generation...

PINSKY: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... we`re seeing a lot of people of similar they don`t have to say their black...

PINSKY: Yeah, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... but I see a lot of the young millennia`s really relating to our culture...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... what`s wrong with being black....

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But here`s the problem...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... I think its beautiful culture.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... look if we want to be....

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: .... I think it`s the lying (ph) they got to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... here`s the problem, here`s the problem. She`s lying to people she is deceiving people she is we think of how much of

money do you spend as tax payers did look into her fraud. This is the -- that she is not well and she`s the sick person and I got to tell you I

would not want to be in a class system being like that as my professor.

PINSKY: Well, let me, let me bring in the phone -- I have Lisa Brown who calls Rachel a very good friend and I wonder if what your reaction was when

you heard this story when it first broke. Did it shock you? Are you surprised did you know there were issues?

LISA BROWN, RACHEL DOLEZAL`S FRIEND: Hi, you know, first I just want to say yes Rachel has been a good friend to me and as for about seven years.

When this happened on, you know, really it`s not it`s a shock that a family would step out and do that, because and -- because there`s you really love

and, you know, your daughter and support that`s not the way that come out that`s I mean...

CATHERWOOD: You support (inaudible) children with their lies. I mean as...

PINSKY: Well, but Lisa...

CATHERWOOD: ... I think it`s a strange take.

PINSKY: ... well that support the lie but they were having cantankerous child custody battles in court over the child that lived...

BROWN: Yeah.

PINSKY: ... I mean there`s a lot of acrimony between...

CATHERWOOD: I do like that her family is the whitest people in America. Yeah, but I get...

PINSKY: I know. It`s so ironic.

CATHERWOOD: ... where`s the hair. They really are. Where`s the real hair?

PINSKY: So Lisa what do you recommend people do with this story? Help us out here. Is she somebody we should feel bad for, we should be angry with,

what`s your take?

BROWN: Well I`m going to tell you this, people are going to think of they want to think they`re going to think according to their perception and so

there`s really nothing I can say I`m only speaking from a friend that supports her friend, may not be the choice that, you know, that happen or -

- but I support here as a friend and I continue to support her and be there for her. There are a lot of families things that nobody knows about...

PINSKY: OK.

BROWN: ... that`s what I say when hurt...

PINSKY: ... OK. OK Lisa...

BROWN: ... is when hurt, yeah.

PINSKY: ... yeah, now that`s very important and I appreciate your sharing that with us because those of us that are from mental health sense that

here that there`s some profound stuff going on, maybe some trauma going on, maybe some real, real significant issues going on and if that`s true we

should feel bad about this. She got herself in trouble she was not properly treated or manage her health, and now she`s got herself in trouble

and this is someone who apparently is done some good work, so would you agree...

BROWN: Why?

PINSKY: ... that we should feel some sympathy for her?

BROWN: She said -- yeah, try to look at other side and when you`re great leader when your all that is the foundation is the family if there`s

hurting if there`s a lot of rejection and there`s a lot of unresolved issues in the family that`s not going to leak out untoward you when you`re

a great leader as she is.

So nobody knows that side of the story from their family perspective. We`re looking at a family that needs healing and restoration and yet we

want to throw her unto the bath when the work should speak for itself. As a friend I`ve seen the life that she has impacted, I`ve seen the care I`ve

seen the servant that she is which makes any great leader. And to come along...

PINSKY: Well, Lisa...

BROWN: .And can come along.

PINSKY: ... I`m going to interrupt you. Vanessa is coming.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, is she black because she hates her white parents or is she black because she really connects with the culture...

PINSKY: Or she black...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... or that`s makes the difference.

PINSKY: ... because she`s delusional and really believes she`s black.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that`s makes the difference.

PINSKY: Which is which, Lisa?

BROWN: You know, what I say when we get engage with the culture it doesn`t matter, you know...

PINSKY: Well, that`s not a lot of us.

BROWN: ... we can is this...

PINSKY: It matters.

BROWN: ... she needs our own culture.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she hates her white side that`s an issue.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: And it allows (ph) you to say. There is nothing human that can be alien to me. So I`m really compliment this Lee I know

it`s a strange situation...

PINSKY: You compliment the...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... but I mean...

PINSKY: ... Rachel.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... but I think that Rachel I mean, you know, I don`t I think it`s a weird kind of situation but she was following her passion

she did great work from what I understand in NAACP...

BROWN: Yes, she did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, I don`t think anybody...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that self patriot because if she does hate that white part of her to that`s a problem.

PINSKY: Everybody`s got to stop because I have to take a break. Thank you, Lisa, we will continue this conversation at later on I got an update

on Bobbi Kristina, is her family finally going to embrace reality with what`s going on with that poor girl. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you African-American?

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FMR. PRESIDENT NAACP, SPOKANE, WASHINGTON CHAPTER: I don`t understand the question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The white young woman who 4 years has portrayed herself as a black woman, Rachel Dolezal, president of the Spokane,

Washington NAACP chapter has now announced that she is officially stepping down. This after her parents outed her race and after her adopted brother

went public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Rachel Dolezal, a white woman who posed as a black woman and made her way to the presidency of the local NAACP chapter, she`s under fire

tonight back with Emily, Vanessa, Mike. Rachel`s two adopted brothers spoke to ABC news take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she took me aside when I was over there and told me to make sure that no one found out where she was actually from and for me

not to blow her cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started out with the hair then she have, you know, probably a little darker tan. And it was very progressive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Let`s go to the audience. You have a comment or question?

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: : Kind of both Dr. Drew. So now that we live in a place in America where you can be a woman any day, you decide you can be

black any day, is that meaning that I can now go to Beverly Hills and be a rich white woman and you won`t call you (inaudible)...

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Girl.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: ... go and do because life is going to change if that`s (inaudible)

PINSKY: I just think we`ve gotten ourselves in a predicament. Have we, Rwanda (ph)where you can just kind of declare what you are.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: I mean this is taking America`s freedom to a whole new level, wasn`t it?

CATHERWOOD: Rwanda, and to that young lady`s question, that`s why I as someone who is not black, I feel like this is more insulting than we`re

giving you credit for. It`s because this young lady can then, at anytime, she wish to claim that she`s black not ever having to endure any of the

discrimination.

PINSKY: No, listen.

CATHERWOOD: Not ever having to endure struggle.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: This woman insults me. If this woman wants to be black, this is a -- that is a beautiful culture.

PINSKY: But, I`m still confused. I`m still confused why -- she didn`t have to have the history. She didn`t grow up as a little black girl

struggling. She didn`t do that. And if she wanted, if she got stopped by a cop, she`s white because now she`s white.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think, you just can`t flip-flop and back and forth because of...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But she did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because of convenience without being called on it. Now you can do whatever you want but just know what you`re doing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I think that what has come out is the life and deception and fraud that is...

PINSKY: The fraud is a problem, yeah, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family issues that coming out, the inconsistencies which make us say there`s something else going on.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re relating to black culture. There`s nothing wrong with that.

PINSKY: That`s wonderful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s happening all over the place.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I`m with you on that. I`m with you on that comment.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Well there`s a thousand reason why it`s wrong. First of all in the hip-hop community, she would be considered the wigger. So

number two, how much pain did she have to fake to be...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: ... a legitimate African-American.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, so black is an experience.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Yes it is, of course. When you step out of your house, you`re getting the black experience if you`re black. And how much does she

think, you know, to get to the position as she`s in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like she may have also seen her brothers that were adopted get some extra privilege or -- from her parents, right? And

the reason or she might have a lot empathy for her brothers and sisters that were adopted...

PINSKY: Brothers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brothers -- excuse me. But at the end of the day what I think is happening here is she took on that empathy and wanted to

take it on her -- as herself. And that`s actually very sick in a lot of ways. Because who knows what she`s capable of doing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and Black paper heard shaken and jive for the man. I don`t think that`s what she did. Yes, she felt connected to the

community but like I said the effort and the work is there.

CATHERWOOD: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did great things...

CATHERWOOD: No one is saying she`s not...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...empathetic with black people being white. That`s what...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what I think.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to be black to be empathetic to the black struggle?

CATHERWOOD: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to her review apparently.

CATHERWOOD: I don`t think anybody...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I think that -- that`s my question.

CATHERWOOD: I don`t think anybody...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... you have to be black to support black.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: But I don`t think anybody is making the argument that you have to be biologically born something to then be emphatic to another.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

CATHERWOOD: I mean, you know, Dr. Drew and I have always talked about like people born and raised in LA are a little bit Mexican regardless of how,

you know, my friends from Atlanta say the same thing. They`re like, you know, I may have white skin but culturally like, I mean, I grew up in

Atlanta.

And I think that how you feel culturally comfortable in this country you should be able to do whatever you want. I think it`s fact that she

actually led a life of deceit in order to capitalize on the very thin margin...

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Yeah.

CATHERWOOD: ... of when it`s beneficial to her to be an African-American without ever having to endure any of the other struggles that may come with

being it. Very similar to these guys you see on YouTube who pretend to be veterans when they get free Starbucks but they never went and fought in any

war. You know what I`m saying? And I`m not trying to compare...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good point, Mike. Good point.

PINSKY: Let`s get another audience, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: OK. So my question is why is it culturally acceptable not wholly but for transgender men and women to come out saying that they

identify with a different gender but then this woman who`s coming out, you know, is acting as another race for a good cause is now not taken as a

heroic as like a...

PINSKY: Right. So you seem to want to react to that? You seem to have a powerful response. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Just a reaction about that. First of all, it`s not the same. And transgender people are persecuted in dying everyday...

PINSKY: Dying everyday?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to a struggle.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Exactly. I`m saying that it`s like, it`s not about her pretending to be black. When somebody comes out and says I`m

transgender...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Except they are.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: : It`s about them becoming who they are and being honest. This woman is a great work and I think maybe in her mind she was

helping people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did help people.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: But it`s the fact that she lied.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: She just...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lying. But I see why people make that correlation. I get it.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I see it but it`s still...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can act like you`re a man. You can act like you`re a woman. But biologically we`re talking science at the end of the

day when you`re a man, you still have that Y chromosome.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, wait. Actually wait.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait a second. No, no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really, seriously?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait. Hold up, stop one second. There are studies that show and more recently show that there are genetic differences and

there are brain chemistry differences in somebody who`s transgendered or this is...

PINSKY: We`re going to -- we`re got to have a special on this.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Air it Wednesday, we`re getting into this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t know (inaudible)...

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: .... was that, no more official court row.

PINSKY: I appreciate your comment. Thank you for being honest and stepping forward here. You`re not -- do not apologize.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: (inaudible) So it`s a little bit personal.

PINSKY: Please join us on our show where we`ll be getting deep into it.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: But like also like I agree with what you`re saying. She`s done a really amazing work. Well I think the issue people are having

is all the deception so all the good work that she did is just being overshadowed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she did it in a way that was affected and she also if we`re looking at this...

PINSKY: Yes, I totally agree with you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... she went to Harvard University and so did I.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: But maybe she needs to move back.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: I really like the comment that you made about why couldn`t she empathize with...

CATHERWOOD: No one`s claiming that anyone can`t feel more comfortable as anything else. It`s the fact that when...

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: ... and someone asked her a question, are you -- she would either A lie or B evasive. And there`s a big difference between saying, "I

feel comfortable as a woman, I feel comfortable as black person."

PINSKY: These guys can keep fighting it out. I will come to the camera and just tell you guys that next up a woman in -- go ahead you guys, keep

going, it`s all good. Next up a woman who encourages her little boy to fight now this brawl her mother is charged with child neglect. We`ll be

right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Time for the Click Fix and with guest here. What is trending under Instagram, Facebook and Twitter feeds? Concentrate guys. And Emily

Radford (ph) you`re up first. What do you got?

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: You better call Jesus because I just found the devil and he`s in Arizona and he`s -- you guys just better watch and hear what he

had to say. This is crazy.

PINSKY: Is your son a devil?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFED MALE: And for example you know, this week this filthy, sodomite picture is everywhere and people are showing these transvestite or

transgender or whatever this guy is, do you know what I`m talking about?

This athlete or whoever he is. I don`t know who he it is. I`ve never even heard of him before this week. Bruce Jenner has basically mutilated his

body apparently and you know, what, he`s being praised by our President. Our President Obama is praising him or praising her, we don`t even know

what it is.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Yeah. This is interesting and here`s just what we`re talking about a few minutes ago with our audience. We`re going more into that and

that guy particularly in a special coming up this Wednesday. We`re going to dig into that.

CATHERWOOD: You mean how gay that guy clearly is?

PINSKY: Well, that maybe part of the conversation.

CATHERWOOD: That`s Bruce Jenner. I didn`t even who he is.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: No. He shouldn`t be talking to people like that and then he also says that he tells people that he should die. This is a

horrible man to be talking to our children...

PINSKY: Gross.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: ... and people in general.

PINSKY: I don`t understand using the name of God to do horrible things and...

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: : Well, people do it often.

PINSKY: ... and using the bible to make somebody suffer? It`s not the idea of the bible. Vanessa, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It make Christians look bad. Yeah, let`s move on. The chick in Wallmart, we just looked at that video...

PINSKY: The fighter.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: : The fighter girl. Her name`s Amber (ph). And we talked a little bit about how she got her son involved because she`s in

martial arts and he...

PINSKY: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... pours shampoo...

PINSKY: Look at this. Look at this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... on the lady`s hair. She was screaming at her. "Punch her "F-in" face. Well, Amber has now been in -- yeah that was --

Amber has now been arrested I believe. She was charged with felony, child neglect and contributing to the delinquency of a minor, a misdemeanor and

(inaudible)

PINSKY: (inaudible) Thank you..

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: Let me go to my cutting edge iPad that actually has a white paper display. It`s brand new. A lot of people don`t get these.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, you`re so great.

CATHERWOOD: In Thailand, this guy wants to be like the next Johnny Knoxville or C-Bo. He tried to do the red ant challenge by stripping down

to his underwear and having a friend rub a branch bearing fire ants all over his genitals. The results...

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: That`s the dumbest thing ever.

CATHERWOOD: ... are obvious.

PINSKY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My God. How could you say (ph) that.

PINSKY: Michael, Michael, thank you for that one. Next stop, My Click Fix. We`ll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Time now for My Click Fix. There are new reports from Radar Online that the family of Bobbi Kristina may finally be willing to allow

her to die at home peacefully. This is after 140 days - nearly 140 days into coma. Apparently Bobbi Grant Brown, her father is against this

decision. But listen everybody, this woman -- this poor girl has been in a, essentially a vegetative state. She has no response in the external

environment.

Once the brain has been damaged to this point, there is no coming back. Even of she had some sort of sustained recovery like they could get her off

the breathing machine or she can move around, she would never be Bobbi Kristina ever.

That person is gone it is time for everybody to accept that and hopefully they can let nature take its course and stop trying to play God with this

case.

DVR us, and you can watch us anytime. Thank you, audience. Thank you all for watching. I`ll see you next time.

END