Return to Transcripts main page

AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Are More Arrests Under Way in Case of Escaped Murderers?; Interview with Kweisi Mfume; Aired 11:00-11:30a ET.

Aired June 15, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And a wedding party at one of the world's most famous hotels interrupted by gunfire. Police had gun accidentally went off at the event inside New York's Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Four people taken to the hospital with injuries. They were later released.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "At This Hour" with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Are more arrests on the way? As the prison worker linked to the daring escape appears in court, the prosecutor suggests more may be involved. And the inmates are still nowhere to be found.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Two shark attacks on one stretch of beach in less than two hours. A real life shark hunt now under way, but swimmers told they can go back into the water if they dare. Is this a sound decision?

BOLDUAN: And called off. The NAACP leader who apparently faked her race abruptly cancels a meeting where she was expected to explain herself. Well, now her chapter wants answers as her brother reveals a stunning secret.

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: Great to see you. Just a short time ago the prison worker who allegedly helped a pair of killers break out of a maximum security prison, she appeared before a judge. Prosecutors say Joyce Mitchell gave Richard Matt and David Sweat hacksaws, chisels, other tools they used in their stunning prison break. She allegedly planned to be the getaway driver too but backed out.

BOLDUAN: Now, if Mitchell was in fact key player in their escape, could she be a key factor in their capture, too? Law enforcement are tracking down nearly 1,000 leads at this point. Despite that, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo says the fugitives could be in Mexico by now.

The governor has asked the state's inspector general to now investigate how these men were able to pull off this escape and how they, the state, can ensure it doesn't happen again. Sara Ganim is in Plattsburgh, New York, following all the latest.

Good morning, Sara.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kate and John. Yes, just moments ago we saw that prison seamstress, Joyce Mitchell, in court for her first major court appearance. She waived her right to the preliminary hearing essentially. Her, her new lawyer who was appointed this morning because of a conflict with the old lawyer, with the previous case. He essentially said we waive the right to have a hearing on these criminal charges.

Now, of course, those criminal charges are that she helped these two inmates escape out of prison by bringing them tools that they needed to cut their way into the prison walls and eventually escape. Now, new details from the district attorney that these men might have been planning this in the nights leading up to their escape by climbing into the prison walls, planning out their escape route, and today just moments ago the district attorney also told CNN that he believes that they may have also found access to even more tools while crawling through those walls, finding a toolbox that belonged to contractors who were already doing construction work on that prison.

Now, you saw Joyce Mitchell in court today. She was wearing a striped prison jumpsuit, shackled at the hands, shackled at the feet, also wearing a blue bulletproof vest which the district attorney later said was standard in high-profile cases but she didn't say anything in court. Her attorney said very little, and we really come away not knowing too much more except what the district attorney has now said which is he believes that it is very possible Joyce Mitchell was manipulated by these two men, that she - that they may have very well manipulated others and more charges could be coming against her or against other people potentially involved.

In the meantime, she's behind bars. Those two remain free. The manhunt expanding in the last couple days, but no significant clues or any confirmed sightings of those two men so far.

BOLDUAN: Sara, thank you so much. I mean, Sara is laying out a lot more stunning details coming out from the investigation, but still these guys are nowhere to be found. Prosecutors say that the convicts, that they rehearsed, they could have been rehearsing their getaway for about a month. How is that possible in a maximum security prison.

BERMAN: Yes. Joining us is someone who knows. Ted Conover worked as a prison guard at Sing Sing prison in New York. He's written a book about his years there and is now a professor at New York University. Ted, great to have you back with us.

As we were listening to Sara lay out the new details we just got in from the district attorney, that perhaps these convicts found tools laying around to help them even further in their escape. You were shaking your head up and down saying makes sense.

TED CONOVER, FORMER CORRECTIONS OFFICERS: Totally makes sense because the work required to cut their way out of there and to punch their way through brick walls couldn't be done in a single night, right? [11:05:05] It makes a lot of sense that it happened incrementally

over time, and the way I imagine that cellblock works from the photos I have seen, it's like where I worked at Sing Sing. It's a classic design of cells back-to-back with a cat walk behind the rear wall.

So if you cut your way into that space, you can disappear for a period of time, and you'll be in a privileged area where they assume no prisoners can be, and that's why you can see a contractor thinking, "Oh, yeah, I will leave this saw and that blade there overnight because I'm coming back in the morning, no prisoners can be back here." So that's kind of a missing piece in my mind. I have been wondering where did they get the big tools they need to do that.

BOLDUAN: Another missing piece or a fascinating piece that's coming out is the manipulation that the prosecutors are talking about of Joyce Mitchell. I mean, she says that Richard Matt made her feel special. And the D.A. saying this - the manipulation could have been happening for a couple of years. You've been inside. How is that possible? What does this mean?

CONOVER: So it's been happening for decades. It's like a basic dynamic of prison life that prisoners who are - people skilled at manipulation and sweet talking and, you know, charming people are in a situation where they have no power other than their ability to get to know somebody who has access to things.

When I was training in Albany, all the trainers talked about an old book called "Games Criminals Play" and there's a scenario - I was looking at it this morning - just like this where there's a shop worker like her, who has gotten to know a prisoner over time and little by little she does what a human being will always do, which is empathize, right? Like why are you here? What did you do? And the prisoner tells her a sad story, and you're trained not to go there because you can't give them favors.

They're smarter than you are in terms of manipulation. If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. They'll get something on you, sometimes put you in their service almost. So it's something all employees are trained to be wary of, but that doesn't mean it can be resisted in every case, right?

BERMAN: The district attorney has suggested that they're following every lead right now, and they're also looking at the possibility there could be others who at least had knowledge of this, the husband of Joyce Mitchell who may or may not have worked at the prison. There also, perhaps other people inside, too. I understand manipulating one person over a period of time but manipulating several?

CONOVER: It seems really unlikely. I mean, she's now a Pariah. She's an outcast. That whole region has taken a hit in terms of its dignity because if you work in a prison, pride is all about keeping those guys inside. Once two get out, oh, my gosh, I mean...

BERMAN: It's the worst thing that can happen. CONOVER: It's the worst thing that can happen. So for two

people to get in that situation seems unlikely. On the other hand, how did they know which pipes to cut through? How did they know which direction to go? It seems reasonable that another person might have been involved.

BOLDUAN: And, Ted, you describe it as the manipulation as kind of a time on prison art that these convicts have. It's the one kind of power they have, it's their power of persuasion. But with that, the fact that is a known thing -

CONOVER: Right.

BOLDUAN: - then she supplies them hacksaw blades, she supplies them drill bits, she supplies them with goggles, she supplies them all of these things, how are they not safeguards, backstops to make sure when someone - if someone succumbs to it, they're not stopped?

CONOVER: There are safeguards. There's a bag check when you arrive at work at every prison. Usually it's very quick. They don't dig through your sandwich all that. There's no metal detector normally. There's so many staff in these prisons that it would slow things down a ton to check like they do at an airport. So it's very cursory except on rare occasions when they check everybody.

BERMAN: Ted, you know, the governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo just launched and asked the inspector general to launch a thorough investigation into everything here. When all is said and done, do you think this will be the case of two smart guys manipulating one woman, you know, sort of an offshoot her or will there be a systemic problem found here?

CONOVER: You know, I think the most likely systemic problem is complacency, that you go decades without a prisoner escaping and you start thinking they can't. And so the job of management at that point becomes reminding people there's a, there's a very bad downside possible, and we have to think about it every single day or it will happen. So if you've been working in that job 10 years, 15, 20 years, they're not all the most interesting jobs, you know, you stop worrying, and I think that's the systemic problem and it's really hard to overcome.

BERMAN: Not again, at least not this way.

BOLDUAN: Things are changing now, that's for sure.

BERMAN: Ted, I appreciate you being here.

BOLDUAN: Ted, great to see you.

BERMAN: Two teenagers badly injured in two shark attacks in one stretch of beach. So was this one shark behind both? Why are swimmers allowed back in the water today?

BOLDUAN: Plus, the NAACP leader accused of faking her race. She abruptly calls off the meeting she has scheduled really to explain herself. Now the chapter is demanding answers as America debates. The former president of the NAACP is going to be joining us.

[11:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: New details in a really unusual back-to-back series of shark attacks at a beach in North Carolina. Two teenagers lost limbs. They're both in stable condition now after surgery.

BOLDUAN: We heard from officials a short time ago saying the beaches will remain open today.

CHIEF CHRIS ANSELMO, OAK ISLAND FIRE & RESCUE: There's no way that we're going to stop people from going into the water. If they, if they want to go in the water, they're going to. I swim in the water, I would swim in the water today.

BOLDUAN: There you go. The fire chief says that both victims were about 20 yards offshore in waist-deep water. A 13-year-old girl lost her arm at the elbow and a 16-year-old boy lost his left arm below the shoulder. They were attacked less than 90 minutes apart. Let's talk about this. Shark expert Lise Watson is the joining us. She's a manager for the wild reef division at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago.

Lise, thank you very much. I mean, they say these shark attacks are rare in and of themselves and very rare in this area, but 90 minutes apart. That had me wondering, do you think this was the same shark?

LISE WATSON, SHARK EXPERT: Well, you're absolutely right, shark attacks are extremely rare, and the fact that they were so close together, the likelihood is it may be the same animal.

BERMAN: And if it is the same animal, what does that then mean? Is that animal likely still around those waters and then that in and of itself would that be reason for concern?

[11:15:00] WATSON: Again, this is a circumstance that is extremely rare. Shark attacks happen very infrequently. I believe there's only been three fatal attacks in the North Carolina waters since 1935, and honestly, you're more likely to be attack - be killed by lightning than you are being attacked by sharks. You know, people safely are in the water with sharks on a regular basis, myself included.

So I'm not sure what the exact circumstances are, why this particular animal or animals, what the circumstances were that were surrounding these particular attacks.

BOLDUAN: And with all that in mind, Lise, who could be the contributing factors that could have led to this. Is it the season, was it the fact that it was high tide? You know, what are some of the factors that you would want to know more about that could have contributed more to this?

WATSON: Well, there are a number of factors. When there are attacks, they're always considered to be cases of mistaken identity. People are not the prey of sharks, so they're not hunting us. But sharks do - they're a predator. They're going into areas where fishing can be occurring or schools of fish may be traveling through there.

In the shore, that's an area where because of the turbulence, it can be murky water, so there's more likely for there to be a case of mistaken identity there. Individuals being by themselves or splashing at the surface, that sort of thing, these are animals that prey on sick, weak fish, and when somebody is splashing at the surface, that may be something that to a shark seems like their prey items which would be like a sick or a weak fish. So that's generally where sharks are going to be hunting and looking for food.

BERMAN: We fully understand the importance of shark conservation. Kate, you know, I know feels very passionately about this, too. I mean, shark attacks are rare. They're generally not any kind of serious threat to human. If anything sharks are at greater risk in the sea than almost anything else. Nonetheless, people do have understandable questions here, again, if there's one shark that attacks two people, they wonder is a shark who develops a taste or has done it once, done it twice, is that shark more likely to do it again?

WATSON: That I can't answer to, and to be very honest, sharks generally have a lot more to be concerned about with humans than we do worrying about being attacked by then because it is such a rare occurrence. You know, as far as humans go, we kill over 100 million sharks every year, and because they are a top predator in the oceans, that's an animal that's actually critical to the health of our seas.

So we look to conserve these sharks to help to make sure that their populations stay healthy, but at the same time I honestly cannot say why these instances happen so close together in such a short span of time because they are seriously so rare that, that's why we're talking about this today, because of the rarity of it.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right. Lise Watson, thank you so much. From the Shedd Aquarium. We both - both John and I were talking about it's a fabulous place to visit whenever you're in Chicago.

WATSON: Thank you so much.

BERMAN: There is concern in North Carolina. Helicopters flying over the waters there. Talking about keeping an eye on something. See that picture right there? That was a hippopotamus on a city street. It's like a scene out of "Jumanji." Wild animals on the loose, not just hippos, pigs too. These animals all escaped from a zoo. People are being told to stay inside.

We're going to have a live report ahead.

BOLDUAN: Also ahead, controversy is growing. The head of the Spokane, Washington, chapter of the NAACP though deciding to stay quiet as of now. Rachel Dolezal she canceled the group's monthly meeting. What should she come out and say though? Her chapters speaking out. We're also going to ask the former head of the civil rights organization. Next. [11:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Happening now, the NAACP chapter in Spokane, Washington, has postponed a meeting this evening in which its president, Rachel Dolezal, was expected to address the growing controversy surrounding her racial identity. Dolezal had been passing herself off as a Black woman until her birth parents came forward speaking out to say she is White. Rachel's parents spoke first to us here on "At this Hour."

Why do you think she's pretending?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL'S MOTHER: Well, basically bottom line we're just saying that we are - we're confirming the truth. We are her birth parents, and we do not understand why she feels it's necessary to misrepresent her ethnicity.

BERMAN: Interesting situation. An online petition has been started and a peaceful protest planned for this evening outside the office of the NAACP office in Spokane pressing for Dolezal to take a leave of absence. Joining us now to talk about this Kwesi Mfume, the former president and CEO of the NAACP for five-term congressman for the State of Maryland.

Sir, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate you. What would you do now? How would you handle this? Would you allow this woman to keep leading this chapter in Spokane?

KWESI MFUME, FORMER PRESIDENT AND CEO, NAACP: You know, now, John, let me preface this by saying I run from hypotheticals but since you asked the question, let's just say that there are a couple of things the NAACP has its options and I don't want to try to tell them what to do but clearly the best thing for all parties in this is full disclosure.

Truth, veracity, integrity, those things are on the line, and so the issue is not so much that she happens to be White and happens to be president of the association because the founders of the association were predominantly White and Jewish and Republican and female.

The issue here is whether or not there's a sense of truthfulness about what's going on, so I would caution others not to tell the organization what to do but I think in terms of Ms. Dolezal, it probably would be best for her to just simply come forward, speak the truth and the facts in this matter, and then allow it to run its own course.

BOLDUAN: You know, a lot of people have been speaking out about this. That's for sure since this really started coming to light late last week. I mean, she has spent a considerable time advocating on behalf of Black people. Still though her brother, an adopted brother in her family, he calls her actions akin to Black face. What do you say to that?

[11:25:00] MFUME: Well, Black face was far more hideous. It was meant to impugn, it was meant to degradegate, it was meant to make a mockery of race, so I don't think that is the same thing. I don't think it can be put in the same basket as that. I think in this case we have a situation where people are perplexed, I'm perplexed, you are, the whole nation is about what the truth is.

And the only way to deal with that will be for her herself in her own way and now I don't want to say in her own time because that time is passing the more we talk about this, but I think it's important for her to come forward. She clearly has an identification if I might go that far with African-American struggles and culture and affinity toward it. She's a graduate of Howard University. She spent a great deal working - of time working on these issues, so she's not make believe when it comes to her sincerity I think about whether or not she feels strongly about the issues that affect the larger African- American community.

So the real point here even as the young lady, (Catera Johnson) who is organizing the protest in Spokane said, they'll forgive her, they just want her to come and to tell them the facts are.

BERMAN: Was she lying? Was she making things up? Was she presenting different.

BOLDUAN: And why?

BERMAN: Yes. And why. You know, perplexing is such a great word here and it raises a lot of issues that are just flat out confusing. I mean, can someone racially self-identify?

MFUME: That's a very good question. We know that people do it sexually. We know that people do it in terms of their ethnicities and what they relate to more. This is a larger question. I mean, it's one of those new age questions that has come about simply because it's juxtaposed against the fact that there is a long, long history of people wanting to be anything but other - I mean, anything Black, and juxtaposed against the history of African-Americans posing as Whites to sort of protect themselves or to find a way to secure for themselves rights in an era where you didn't have rights. So this is really strange.

I think the answers probably just as sociologist hopefully not the politicians, but those people who study these sorts of things will come up with some ideas about whether or not this is a trend or whether or not it's just simple something that's a peculiarity of the whole matter of race, one of the most vexing issues that has ever faced our nation.

BOLDUAN: The voice we need to hear from now, is Rachel's. So you definitely are right about that.

MFUME: Indeed, indeed.

BERMAN: Kwesi Mfume, thank you so much for being with us and I mean that way more than hypothetically. Thanks so much, sir.

MFUME: Thank you. Thanks, John. Thanks, Kate. BERMAN: New information this morning on the two brutal killers

on the run. How much help did they have to break out of prison? And at this moment what might they be doing to evade those dogs that are on their trail?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)