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Gunman Shot Dead By Sniper After Car Chase; Judge: Boulware Has Long History of Mental Illness; Prison Worker Charged As Hunt For Killers Intensifies; Hillary Clinton Talks Capitalizing on Country's Economic Rebound; Judge Thought Dallas Gunman After Her; Prosecutor's Office Releases Report on Tamir Rice's Death, Gives Go-Ahead to Charge Officers. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 13, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:52] RICK BIRT, RECORDED AMBUSH ON POLICE (on the phone): I was just trying to show here that the Police Headquarters, all the alarms were going off in the Police Headquarters. Several vehicles responded. They are now chasing after the van northward in the video. And then we saw several police officers coming around the south side which is just to the camera right and several officers were going into the parking lot trying to outflank the vehicle but it fled the scene before they could get around that side.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Did anyone come to you or any of your neighbors, tell you what to do, to leave, to stay where you were? And then I wonder if you felt like you and your family were in any sort of imminent danger.

BIRT: I -- should have felt that way, but I didn't. I know my wife did. But then about two hours later, two officers knocked on our door and told us we needed to evacuate since our apartment faces -- it's actually directly across the street from the Police Headquarters parking lot and that's where they found a few of the explosives, so since our apartment is all windows on that side, they told us we need to evacuate and everybody else on that side had to as well. So then when we exited our apartment, there were several officers just down the hallway with their weapons drawn and it looked like they were surrounding a person, an individual, up against the wall just a few apartments down from ours.

HARLOW: Rick, thank you very much. Stand by, because it is the top of the hour and I do want to reset here for our viewers. Five o'clock Eastern, you're in CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. And we continue to follow the developments out of Dallas, where the picture is getting a bit clearer after that shocking ambush overnight. It started just after midnight, when bullets were flying outside of Police Headquarters in Dallas, being shot indiscriminately at the headquarters there. A man driving an armored van just ambushed this police department. Also some patrol cars as well. The officers obviously were shocked and they responded. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Armored (bleep). UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, guys. Guys!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, that suspect who is now dead drove away in this armored van after the gunfire broke out. It was a 13-mile chase into the Dallas suburbs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: To all those knowledge witnesses and everything else here at headquarters, all suspects got into a vehicle and are currently in pursuit. There have been rounds that hit the glass that did not penetrate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, we have a 50 caliber and we have rifles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supervisor call down here to communications, ASAP. We have one of the shooters on the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect refused to give me his name. And he's got the van rigged with explosives and he has cameras so he can probably see on Charlie side of his vehicle and all sides.

CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE: When the van rammed the squad car that initially confronted this suspect, seconds of movement by our officers, and seconds, saved their lives. If they had stood still and not moved and shot in response, they wouldn't have survived.

(GUNSHOT)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. That is what happened to the gunman's van earlier this morning. Police shot and killed him through the windshield after they determined he was such a great threat. He reportedly told the officers the van was packed with explosives. They did find at least two pipe bombs inside and they were detonated. Also pipe bombs left outside of Police Headquarters before that chase ensued. Let's talk about this with an NYPD Detective Harry Houck, he's with me. Also, Jonathan Gilliam, former police officer and a former FBI agent.

Still with me on the phone is Rick Birt, who watched this, who filmed this from atop his apartment building right across the street there from Dallas Headquarters.

Harry, let me begin with you.

HARRY HOUCK, NYPD DETECTIVE: Sure.

HARLOW: Just how do you think the police handled this situation? Because it's miraculous that no one was even shot at all and then they pursued him on this chase while also having to keep a very close eye afterwards on that rigged van.

HOUCK: Right. I mean, I think the Dallas Police Department acted admirably. You know, when they first started taking fire from this van, the police officers are trained to take cover immediately so that saved the lives of the officers when they tried to -- in that one car as you can see many bullets, as you are seeing that here right now. And you heard all the gunfire going on. Not only was he probably shooting but the police officers were also firing back. And then once the chase ensued, you know, and the vehicle was -- had stopped, this is a call for why we need the military equipment that we are getting from the government, that 50 caliber gun was actually able to eliminate the threat by killing the shooter and making sure that that van couldn't take off. So, it's very good that they had a 50 caliber machine gun or 50 caliber gun to be able to use on an armored vehicle like that, because nine millimeter rounds would not be able to pierce that at all.

[17:05:30] HARLOW: It's also important to preface this by saying this is someone who was clearly disturbed. This is someone who had just lost a custody battle in court who the judge herself told me she was threatened by him on multiple occasions --

HOUCK: Right.

HARLOW: -- saying he was going to get her, he was going to go after her. This is someone who we're told from his mother has a history of mental illness, who has been in and out of jail.

Jonathan Gilliam, to you as a former police officer, it seems odd to me that no one seems to have been watching him and he was able to purchase multiple firearms and that he was able to arm this vehicle with explosives.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Right. That's right. You're absolutely correct, Poppy. I mean, the fact is we had plenty of signals that there was something wrong with this guy. There's a lot of angry people out there when they have stuff goes on when the courts get involved with their children. However, when it goes to the level that threats are being made, there needs to be some serious attention paid to that individual. But again, the law protects people, they can't just be, you know, put into an insane asylum. You can't just go arrest them a lot of the times just for making threats. However, some serious background checks on this guy should have been looked at at that point in time, just strictly based on his violent behavior, his violent comments.

HARLOW: All right. Rick, I want to bring you in here as well. You shot this cell phone video. We will going to roll it as you talk to us. Just walk us through what it was like in the middle of the night last night. You're home with your family and all of a sudden, you hear gunfire.

BIRT (on the phone): Like I said, at first we weren't sure what it was because it was so loud and then we opened the windows and it was actually very very quiet. The street was actually quieter than normal. And the vehicle was parked there, then several -- all of a sudden several squad cars, we heard the sirens and they all showed up it seemed at once, and then we heard several gun shots go off and I just kept filming. My wife got to the ground. And I think she was wondering why I didn't do the same.

HARLOW: Yes. Absolutely. Guys, thank you very much for joining me. Harry Houck, Jonathan Gilliam, and Rick Birt joining me on the phone, an eyewitness to all of this overnight.

Coming up next, we will going to talk about the man, the Dallas man, the suspect, who allegedly fired at those police officers at Police Headquarters. We will going to take a look at his criminal background and his checkered past. Also, why one judge told us she knew something would happen at some point. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:11:14] HARLOW: The people of Dallas today coming to grips with the harrowing and violent incident overnight that ended with a gunman dead.

Sunlen Serfaty is following the details for us from Dallas about who this man was, someone that attacked the Police Headquarters there in Dallas overnight. What do we know about him?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, there certainly seems to be a few red flags over the years. We know he had multiple past run-ins with the police, a history of domestic violence in at least three different occasions involving his family. And there are also some hints that these family problems could have potentially also contributed in some way to this attack today. We know he was involved in a custody battle over his children. Police saying he specifically brought this up to them in a long and angry rant this morning during the standoff. He singled out police. He said they are the ones that took his child away from him. Now, investigators are also paying close attention to his social media presence online. The police chief describing it as concerning, pointing to specific threats he's made against a judge online. And we heard from one Judge Kim Cooks, she's a judge in the April custody case of someone that she identifies as she believes this is the suspect. Here's what she had to say earlier and why she said this is no surprise to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE KIM COOKS, DALLAS COUNTY FAMILY DISTRICT COURT: What I know is when he had a court appearance and when we thought that he would be in court, the security was always heightened in the building, in my courtroom. I had extra security put in place. Because he was always a threat to us. So, we just didn't know what he would do or when he would do it or you know, what was going to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: Now, even though he has identified himself to police, police still have not confirmed his identity and police say there was also no indication ahead of time though that he was going to commit this specific attack against police, Poppy, although it seems likely that he made those attacks against judges in the past. Those threats against judges in the past -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Right. Right. And I know they're not confirming his identity, but he came forward and said his name. Didn't he?

SERFATY: That's right. And police have said that from the beginning, from the first press conference they had this morning, that he has identified himself to police. But police have been staying away from confirming his name. They need to find out exactly, you know, match and make sure that this is the man that was in this van and committed these attacks. We know that he was shot through the windshield of that van and confirmed dead a few hours later -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Sunlen, thanks for the reporting.

Coming up, two convicted killers still on the run in New York. And the woman accused of helping them escape from a maximum security prison, that is her mug shot because she is now sitting behind bars. The latest on those two men that escaped and the woman who allegedly helped them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:17:42] HARLOW: Right now, police as far away as Texas are on the lookout for two escaped killers behind that stunning prison break last week in Upstate New York. While the police search, they are hoping that they can get to more critical information from one person they do have in custody. The prison seamstress Joyce Mitchell. She was charged last night with giving Richard Matt and David Sweat tools to cut through the walls of their cells, including hacksaw blades, chisels and drill bits.

Sources telling us here at CNN that she had some sort of relationship with both of these inmates. Police have opened an investigation also into her husband, who also works at the prison. He, though, has not been charged. Meantime, police in Texas have been warned that those fugitives may be headed their way. That is because one of them Richard Matt has ties in the area.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is live in Cadyville, New York, that is where an active search behind you Miguel is under way right now.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy, we are near a town called Cadyville. The phone is breaking up (audio gap), we want to show you before they disappear. Hundreds and hundreds of correctional officers from the New York State Department of corrections lined up along Highway 3 here and they have all now moved into this very, very heavily wooded area as you see here. This is the area we have been talking about for a couple of days now. This is the area where dogs picked up what appeared to be an encampment of the two escaped convicts.

This is also the area not too far from the service station where the subway sandwich shop was where the surveillance video may have picked up the two escaped murders out there as well. I can tell you that the correctional officers lined up for about, it looked about a half mile, maybe three quarters of a mile down the road, and then begin moving into this area. We're near Trudeau Road (INAUDIBLE) in the north. The prison where we are right here is about a mile, mile and a half northwest of here and this is the area they have been concentrating on intensely, and this is just another sign of just how much they believe that these individuals are in this area and it's just a matter of finding out exactly where they are -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And I know Miguel they believe that they are indeed still together. You would have thought they might have split up but it sounds like the belief among all the people searching for them there is that they are together. I just wonder what the people in the community are saying, if they are nervous, if they are scared. These are two convicted murderers.

MARQUEZ: Well, they are a bit of two things. You know, life goes on. They are cutting the grass, doing yard work, getting their lives together and continuing on, but they are heavily armed while doing it. You see a lot of people with guns strapped to their sides, their belts. (INAUDIBLE)

Everybody in town is just desperate for information, for the word that they have been caught, because this is an idyllic rural wilderness sort of area where this sort of attention, this sort of level of law enforcement, just is insane. And this level of attention from the local, states and national media just is never seen. So this is a turn of life that they would like to put behind them.

HARLOW: Yes. How rare is it Miguel for this prison to have someone who has escaped that hasn't been found eight days later?

MARQUEZ: Well, that's never happened at this particular prison. So this is, we are on new territory with this particular break. And it is I think disturbing to many how well they were able to cut out of their cells, navigate through the bowels of not only the prison but of the city, the town of Dannemora itself, pop out of a manhole and then not be discovered for some five hours. I think that there is a sense that whatever Joyce Mitchell may have provided them to get out, there may have been more that either she provided them or others provided them to get away as well, whether or not she changed her mind and was going to pick them up in the car and then decided not, whether they had some other plan to begin with, that's still yet to be determined.

But I think there's great concern that at the press conference last night, for instance, there was no real sign that they had ever actually seen them despite all of the tips, all of the information, all of the individuals who believe that they had seen these people, not one of those is a real bona fide tip. The officials saying that they're not sure that they have ever actually spotted them, seen them yet. The strongest thing they have to go on right now is the scent these dogs picked up now several days ago. And remember, we had a very very heavy rain last night, so that's going to complicate things for the scent dogs as well -- Poppy.

[17:22:45] HARLOW: And we are also looking Miguel at images of Joyce Mitchell as she was arraigned last night. Prior to this arraignment she did not have an attorney representing her and she was cooperating with the authorities, giving them information voluntarily. Now that she is represented and charged, do they expect she will continue to give them information?

MARQUEZ: It's not clear that she has anything else to give them at this point. I think that they felt that she had given them everything that they could get and there really wasn't much more value in anything she was saying. They didn't seem to be bothered by the fact that she would probably get an attorney and that getting information out of her would become more difficult. It does not appear that she had a lot more to give them. I think in part, the reason they held this dramatic late night arraignment last night was to send the signal that anybody else out there, you know, better start thinking that they're coming for them as well because you have one person under arrest. If her husband or others assisted them, they will be coming for them as well.

HARLOW: Miguel, thank you for the reporting there right in Cadyville, New York where there are hundreds of officers scouring the dense forest there for these two convicted killers. Miguel, thank you.

Let's bring in Jonathan Gilliam, former police officer. Also a former FBI agent. You know, what strikes me is that the police here Jonathan are concentrating on such a small area a week later, eight days after these guys escaped from prison. Does that surprise you?

GILLIAM: Well, again, you know, I think when this all started we're looking at two different scenarios. Did they have help or did they not have help. And if they did not have help and the dogs put their scent in a certain area, that area is going to get smaller and smaller because they are just clearing, you know, massive areas as they go through. But I'm still not sure Poppy if they didn't have help and possibly got away. I just don't know. Dogs are invaluable but even they can be flawed sometimes and that is, you know, until they have them in sight it's going to be an issue.

HARLOW: Police, Jonathan have also said that it's possible that David Sweat and Richard Matt changed their appearance. How would that be possible and do you think that it happened?

GILLIAM: Well, the only way they could really change their appearance is if they changed their clothes and grew their hair out and seven days is not going to give you enough time to really grow a lot of hair out. It doesn't look like they had beards when they left, at least that's not the pictures that they're showing us. So I don't think they could have changed a whole lot unless they got wigs and things like that. But you're not going to find that in the woods. My biggest complaint about this whole thing is that they were given green jump suits which is like giving them free camouflage. I think a lot of stuff that this prison does is not thought through properly. Or it's looked at for political reasons and that they just need to rethink this stuff.

HARLOW: That's a very interesting point. I hadn't thought about the color of their jump suits. If indeed that's what they were wearing. These are their mug shots, so again, we don't know exactly when those were taken. Miguel mentioned the heavy rain in the area last night, and the key right now is these bloodhounds that have those keen noses that have been able to track down the scent of these men, they believe. What does the heavy rain do to that trail?

GILLIAM: Well, it can lessen it quite a bit. I have never actually done a case with bloodhounds but I have been around them and I got to meet them and they're fascinating dogs. I'm a big dog person. But they still have the ability to track. So -- but see, again here Poppy, these individuals went this far out of the way to get out of this place and they had the help to get the tools there. I'm still not sure on exactly what they cut that pipe with. Because I don't think they could have cut those pipes with saw saws and nobody heard it, nobody smelled it. It's like a jack hammer when you're on the inside somewhere. If that was the case and they did actually have help, and maybe there was a bag of, you know, stashed things outside the prison or something, the chances are that they could have changed a little bit of their scent. Somebody could have given them a ride a certain distance. And, you know, those are things that is going to play with these dogs' abilities to track somebody down.

HARLOW: All right. Jonathan Gilliam, thank you for that.

Much more ahead on the deadly police shooting in Dallas. What could have motivated this shooter to ambush the Police Department in the middle of the night? Also, why one person says they knew that something bad was bound to happen. The details, next.

[17:27:12] But first this. Get ready for a taste of island life with tomorrow's brand new episode of "Parts Unknown." This time, Anthony Bourdain is showing us a side of Hawaii as few tourists ever see.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So Hawaii. And I'm conflicted about what I should tell you about Hawaii, because really, of almost all the places that I've been, this surprisingly is the least screwed up.

All right. So I'm not sure what I should tell you about this amazing multi-flavored I'm pretty sure Jesus does not want me to eat this, multi-cultural awesome mash-up of cool stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we haven't seen talked about spam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a spectacular environment. I think what I should tell you is this. Hawaii, it's awesome. Don't come here.

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:31:42] HARLOW: Tonight, presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, and her team will be in Iowa. But this afternoon, New York was the scene of her first major event for the 2016 race. She told the crowd it is time. The former secretary of state and New York Senator says now is the moment for Americans to capitalize on the country's economic rebound. And she says she has a plan to make that happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, (D), FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You brought our country back. Now it's time, your time, to secure the gains and move ahead. And you know what? America can't succeed unless you succeed.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: That is why I am running for president of the United States.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN senior political correspondent, Brianna Keilar, is traveling with the campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hillary Clinton got personal here at her first campaign rally, talking about her mother, Dorothy, who had a very hard scrabble childhood, but got by because of the kindness from teachers and employers that she didn't get from her parents.

Hillary Clinton also talked about Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt. This is, after all, Roosevelt Island, the Four Freedoms Park where she held her event, and she channeled the economic populism that was their brand. She talked about equal pay for women, paid family medical leave, as well as the availability of affordable child care.

She is the Democratic front-runner so this speech wasn't so much about distancing herself from the Democrats that she's up against, but really, against the entire Republican field.

CLINTON: Now, there may be some new voices in the presidential Republican choir --

(LAUGHTER)

-- but they're all singing the same old song --

(CHEERING)

CLINTON: -- a song called "Yesterday."

(CHEERING)

CLINTON: You know the one. All our troubles look as though they're here to stay.

(LAUGHTER)

And we need a place to hide away.

(LAUGHTER) They believe in yesterday.

(LAUGHTER)

And you're lucky I didn't try singing that, too, I'll tell you.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING)

CLINTON: These Republicans trip over themselves, promising lower taxes for the wealthy and fewer rules for the biggest corporations without regard for how that will make income inequality even worse. We've heard this tune before and we know how it turns out.

KEILAR: Hillary Clinton did not distance herself from President Obama. She embraced his policies, a sign that she's really trying to keep the coalition together that helped propel him into the White House, minorities as well as women and gay Americans. She talked a lot about rights for gay Americans, criminal justice reform and she called for comprehensive immigration reform.

She also showed some humility. She said she's not always going to get it right and she made a nod to the mistakes that she's made in the past.

Brianna Keilar, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:35:03] HARLOW: Interesting.

Brianna, thank you for that.

Coming up, following that ambush at police headquarters overnight in Dallas, a judge there who knew the suspect says she thought that he was going to target her and try to kill her. We'll hear from her next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: A Dallas judge says she thought the heavily armed gunman that opened fire on Dallas police headquarters last night was going to target her. We will hear from that judge in just a moment.

But first, here's how events unfolded overnight. A hail of bullets rained down on police headquarters shortly after midnight. Video captured by residents nearby. Bullets pierced an occupied patrol car, also the front lobby, the information desk, and even the second floor of police headquarters. Remarkably, no one was hurt. The gunman tried to escape in an armored van, ramming a squad car in the process. Police followed him in chase, stopping 13 miles later at a restaurant parking lot. The gunman then called in to 911.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAVID BROWN, CHIEF, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: This was an on-again, off-again negotiation. He would get angry during the negotiations, just hang up and stop talking. He would rant for awhile, not really have a conversation with us, and rant during negotiations in Hutchins. And at some point, negotiations just ceased.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On his end or on --

BROWN: On his end. So we don't yet know motive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:40:00] HARLOW: They do not yet know motive. Police eventually shot and killed the suspect. They used a robot to detonate explosives inside of his van.

Now to a judge who may have insight into why he went on this rampage. During negotiations with police, the gunman told them his name was James Boulware.

Earlier, I spoke with the judge named Kim Cooks. She was central to a child custody case involving a man named James Boulware. She had awarded custody of his son to the boy's grandmother because of the history of violence. The final order was set for this past Monday but Boulware did not appear in court that day, which she found surprising.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM COOKS, JUDGE, DALLAS COUNTY FAMILY COURT (voice-over): When he had a court appearance and when we thought that he would be in court, the security was always heightened in the building, in my courtroom, I had extra security put in place because he was always a threat to us. So we just didn't know what he would do or when he would do it or you know, what was going to happen.

HARLOW (voice-over): What was he so upset about?

COOKS: You know, you really couldn't tell because he would walk into court and he would have this look on his face like you know, when I would see him walk into court, my heart would literally drop because he would look at you as if he wanted to kill you and then he may be fine for one minute, then next minute he's out, you know, he's speaking in a rage and ranting about something that he's angry about.

HARLOW: Did you feel threatened already when he didn't show up in court on Monday, because I know you've said, "He made threats against me in the past"?

COOKS: I did feel threatened, because he had previously made threats. And I believed that he would carry out the threats. I just didn't know when. I thank the Dallas Police Department and chief brown and all the law enforcement, they did an excellent job, but never did I think they would be the target and I feel really bad that they were the target. I always thought that I was going to be the target.

(END VIDEOTAPE) HARLOW: The judge saying she thought she would be a target of this man, not the police officers.

Coming up next, we'll speak with a former NYPD police officer, Harry Houck, about this ambush on police overnight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:46:20] HARLOW: In Dallas, Texas, a man is dead after he threatened to blow up a van packed with explosives. This, after he ambushed the Dallas police headquarters, shooting indiscriminately at the building, even at occupied patrol cars. He then led the officers on a car chase through Dallas.

Let's talk about it with Harry Houck, former NYPD detective and CNN law enforcement analyst; also with me on the phone is Tom Fuentes, former FBI assistant director.

Tom, I want to get your reaction to this first.

The Dallas Police Association has just come out with a press release saying they are urging officers in Dallas to be extra attentive and careful both on and off duty in the wake of this attack. Do you believe that this was an isolated incident with someone who was clearly mentally unstable or do you think there is a broader risk here?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think that they have to at least take a caution that it could be a broader risk, even though it has the appearances that this was a personal matter for Boulware. It's still something that we don't know if there is more to it and they can't just, at this point, go about business as usual, and of course, you always have the copycat thing that people may have been watching this all night and all day and think, wow, what a good idea, why didn't I think of that --

HARLOW: Harry --

FUENTES: -- to attack the police as a good idea.

HARLOW: Harry, what we saw, it's pretty extraordinary that no police officers were injured given how many shots were fired in this. But given how this unfolded, that there were these long negotiations with him over the phone, the police chief there saying at some point those negotiations just ended, he just stopped negotiating with them, he had this van rigged with explosive devices. They ended up using snipers to kill him. Was that the right response? Did they have other options?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I would probably say so. They're making that decision, they're out there in the field, but if he decides to stop talking, what they're afraid of is maybe how many explosives might be in that van and if they detonate that van and it's a real large explosion, a lot of people could be hurt or injured so somebody finally made a decision on the street there to take him out. It's a good thing that they did. HARLOW: Tom Fuentes, do you agree that this is a shoot to kill

scenario?

FUENTES: Oh, absolutely. This is a classic case where the police have to put this to an end as soon as they possibly can.

HARLOW: One thing that I keep asking, Tom, it just doesn't seem clear, is why no one knew something like this could happen because this is someone who made threats to this judge multiple times in court after this verdict came down that he lost custody of his child, he's someone that we're told by his own family has a history of mental illness, in and out of jail. If they're making threats to a judge, why is this someone who can obtain multiple guns and someone who bought an armored van and was able to rig it with explosives? Seems like no one was watching.

FUENTES: Well, working in reverse, obtaining guns and armored vehicles, ballistic armor, all of that, all of the military type equipment, is no problem for just about anybody in this country, no matter what, we've seen this over and over and over, whether it's young kids in a street gang or older people that are mentally disturbed like him. So that part is almost difficult. And as far as people who make threats to judges and police officers, the problem here is it's so common and so little can be done until they do something, and there are so few resources, because there are a lot of people out there that will get upset in court, and you know, make these kind of threats and not carry through. So, unfortunately, you know, the police have to deal with this kind of personality that's out there on the loose, and he's not alone. There are a whole lot of others, hundreds and hundreds of others just like him that are ticking bombs, right this minute.

[17:50:16] HARLOW: Harry, do you agree with that? That even though this is someone who made threats to a judge in court, should not be kept track of? That no one should be really watching or monitoring the actions?

HOUCK: Well, you know, I agree with Tom. You don't have the resources. I can't tell you how many times as a detective somebody came in and said, somebody made a threat to me and they want protection or want to be put away in the witness protection system for something like that. You can't do it. We don't have the resources. We just had the FBI come on and ask local law enforcement to help in trying to keep track of the alleged ISIS members out there in United States. You probably get -- every police department probably gets 15 to 100 threats a week coming into the police department in a large city like here in New York, and it's impossible for you to be able to find enough officers to be able to follow somebody, 24/7, and catch something like this from occurring.

HARLOW: Gentleman, thank you very much. I appreciate the perspective.

With us, Harry Houck, former NYPD officer; Tom Fuentes, former FBI assistant director. Still, police looking for a motive in all of this. What could have

driven him to do this? Luckily, as we said, none of the officers were even injured in this ambush.

Coming up next, police just showing our Nick Valencia some of the remarkable damage to their patrol cars, to police headquarters from what unfolded last night. We'll bring you that report from Nick.

Also, new documents shedding light on the killing of 12-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland. The new details, next.

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[17:55:27] HARLOW: The Cuyahoga County prosecutor's office in Ohio has just today released the results of a sheriff's department investigation into the shooting death of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. You'll remember, Rice was the boy holding a B.B. gun, waving it around when a rookie police officer seen in this video shows up and shoots him within seconds of arriving on the scene. Earlier this week, a municipal court judge stated that prosecutors should move forward with charges against the officers involved. The prosecutor had said if there are any charges, that would be all based on what a grand jury finds.

Joining me from Cleveland, Martin Savidge, who's been following this story throughout.

Martin, it has been 200-plus days. This grand jury has not been called yet. And now this big, big release of all these documents from the sheriff's department comes today. What is most important from this release today?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's a huge document drop. It's 224 documents. And this is the investigation, as you say, that the sheriff's office did, the independent investigation. So much to go through. And we're still pouring through it now.

But one of the key things that pops out is that the police officer, that's Timothy Lowman, the one that fired the fatal shot against 12- year-old Tamir Rice. He said he shouted a command, something like, "Show me your hands, show me your hands!" before he opened fire. And this report has a problem with that. It says, according to witness interviews, it is unclear whether Officer Lowman shouted verbal commands inside the zone car to Rice who was located inside the gazebo area prior to discharging his weapon. That could become a real issue for any grand jury, as they begin to review this case. In other words, did the officers actually do what they said? Witnesses, apparently, say they didn't hear anything shouted.

It should also be pointed out the 911 call that started it all, a lot of focus on that, because of what the caller said, that this may be a juvenile and that the gun was probably fake. That never was passed along to the responding officers. So, the investigators went to that dispatcher and said, why wasn't that passed along? The dispatcher refused to answer their questions based on the advice of her attorney.

HARLOW: Wow.

SAVIDGE: So you realize, too, there is another misstep.

HARLOW: Yeah, that the officers clearly were not armed with all of the information that they should have been before responding.

Some of the most compelling new information, Martin, I understand, is coming from new eyewitness accounts, including the account of an FBI agent. Is that right?

SAVIDGE: That's right. So much of this, we've seen it. We've seen the video. But we don't know everything that was really going on. There was an FBI agent who showed up four minutes afterwards. He heard the call of shots fired. He is the first and only one to begin rendering first aid, and that's always a question people are troubled by. Why do the officers not do anything? He reports, when he showed up, both officers appeared to be, in his words, "shell shocked," and when he asked them, get me a first aid kit, get me anything, they said, "We don't have a first aid kit. We weren't trained in first aid." So the officer -- or the FBI agent begins to work on the child. He says that Tamir responded to him, that he gave him his name, and that, at one point, reached out or reached for the FBI agent's hand. It's really a very moving description that this FBI agent gives as he struggles to try to save the boy's life, in those first few moments. And he also talks about how he didn't look like a child. In fact, they didn't know it was a child, that Rice was 12, until his sister ran up and said so. The FBI agent said, no way. He looks at this boy, who was 200 pounds, 5'7", and he looked into Tamir's face, and he could see it, he could see the youth, and he just says, wow. A really, really strong account.

[17:59:27] HARLOW: A remarkable account.

Martin Savidge, thank you very much for the reporting.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM begins right now.

It's 6:00 on the east coast. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow, joining you from New York.

And we begin in Dallas where a judge thinks she has answers to why a heavily armed gunman opened fire on a Dallas police headquarters last night and also planted a pipe bomb outside. A hail of bullets rained down on police headquarters shortly after midnight. Video captured by residents nearby shows it all unfolding. And the entire incident ended with suspect dead and his armored getaway van up in flames.