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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

New Developments in Search for Escaped Killers; More U.S. Troops Could Be Headed to Iraq. Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET.

Aired June 12, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:30] SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL ANALYST: And so she very well may be in trouble for that, and I think to your point which is so interesting, you know, all races, creeds, religions, colors, ethnicities have been part of the civil rights movement from the very beginning, and there are members of the NAACP, important members, that are White. So the suggestion somehow that she had to pretend to be African-American to rise to prominence within the NAACP or within the community is just inaccurate. She didn't have to do that. So I really can't wait to hear from Rachel to figure out why she felt the need to do this. I mean, I know there certainly are people that have embraced the African-American community and the culture that haven't pretended to be Black. So this is something - I have to tell you, I have never heard of it.

BOLDUAN: I know. And you've been hearing me on TV. I'm even having a hard time talking about it because it is so confusing and it's really just kind of a confusing and strange thing to even be discussing, the fact it's such a big story makes sense though because it's so shocking.

Sunny, stay with me. Let's bring in Mark Lamont Hill to this conversation. Mark, I know you have been hearing about this story. I just had the parents on of Rachel Dolezal who are puzzled and saddened they say by what their daughter is doing. What do you think of it?

MARK LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first, the fact this is happening, both the roots of it and the reason why the parents are coming out now is very fascinating to me and I suspect it's a much more personal and family issue than anything else.

BOLDUAN: Right.

HILL: But the fact that it's happening is interesting. I don't feel anger toward her. I don't feel frustration toward her. I'm just puzzled as everyone else is. This feels like a mental health issue, this feels like an identity issue, this feels like a family issue. I can be sympathetic in that regard.

My issue with her tough, is that she's taking resources that a Black person is supposed to have access to. That she's being dishonest with friends and community members who think they're engaging a person who is African-American. It's one thing to say race is a social construct. It's another thing to simply lie and make things up. BOLDUAN: Do you think - Sunny and I were talking about this,

Mark, but I want to get your take. I mean, in today's society, do you think the president of any chapter of the NAACP as the president of the NAACP, does that person need to be Black?

HILL: I don't think they need to be Black, but I think that it's reasonable for the people who are electing someone to know that they're electing a Black person just like a faculty...

BOLDUAN: Right. Exactly right.

HILL: I just want to know.

BOLDUAN: Take the weird deception lying part out of it I guess is an important part of this discussion, right?

HILL: Yes.

HOSTIN: Yes. And Kate, you know, if I can weigh in on what Mark is saying, I mean, I don't understand where he's coming from in terms of taking resources away from African-Americans because, again, I don't think you need to be Black to be a member of the NAACP and certainly to rise to prominence within the organization, and I don't think you need to be African-American to be on that council, so the suggestion somehow that by doing this she's taking away from African- Americans. I don't agree with that.

HILL: That's not what I mean though.

HOSTIN: OK.

HILL: Well, Sunny, let me be clear. I'm talking about something very in particular. She's a faculty member at the university. Often times the faculty have the diversity guidelines that's aligned to make sure that this diversity representation faculty of Black people. And if she was hired as a Black professor in a school that may all have White people then I think it's unfair for her to be the one Black faculty member that is hired if she's not Black.

HOSTIN: OK. OK.

BOLDUAN: Mark, do you think she could keep her job?

HILL: I would need to know more about the conditions under which she was hired but if she was hired under the same conditions that she became NAACP president, then, no, she shouldn't be because she has a faculty particularly in African studies department have a right to know who they're hiring and what they are dealing with. It's not just she has some radical or postmodern conception of race. She's putting up fake pictures of random Black people and saying that's her father. I mean, like she's lying to us.

BOLDUAN: Yes. There are clearly - there are a lot of questions and it should be said that we've been attempting to reach out to Rachel to hear from her and so far have been unsuccessful in our attempts to reach her to hear more of her side of the story. We did hear from her parents though. It's great to have this conversation though guys. Thank you so much, Mark and Sunny, thanks.

HILL: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, we're going to have breaking news. A resident in lockdown says that there's - that law enforcement are - there's a swarm of activity by law enforcement in their neighborhood as they search for two killers. This as sources tell CNN the two escaped inmates, they're still together, and an officer spotted someone in the woods. We'll have much more on the hunt ahead.

[11:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Happening right now, some major developments on the search for two convicted killers who then on the run now for nearly a week. Authorities now think that Richard Matt and David Sweat are still together and did not separate after, escape from Clinton Correctional Facility.

We've also learned that authorities narrowed down the search area after, an officer saw someone go into the woods on Wednesday evening. A source close to the investigation says that food wrappers found where the men might have slept, it appear to be from the prison commissary. And right now more than 500 law enforcement officials they are looking through neighborhoods that are near the prison, those neighborhoods pretty much lockdown.

They were also checking surveillance video from a sandwich shop nearby to see if the cameras might have recorded, caught a glimpse of those men at all. A lot going on in Upstate, New York. Let's discuss all of this, these developments in the hunt for these men with Matthew Fogg, a former member of the U.S. Marshal's special operations group.

Matt, it's great to see you again. So on this latest development that we're hearing that they strongly believe at this point that the two men are together. I know that we've discussed this. Would they be - what's the - what's the pros and cons for these fugitives to stay together or to separate. But the fact they are together, is that good news from law enforcement perspective?

MATTHEW FOGG, RETIRED CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHALL: Absolutely. If they're together because now you can get, as I say, two for your buck - for your bank. So the bottom line is we catch them, it's the best thing going for right now, if they are together.

BOLDUAN: Now, one of the things that we've been talking a lot about is how key the dogs picking up a scent have been, these bloodhounds.

FOGG: Right.

BOLDUAN: We've been talking so much about them. They're still in play. They believe they're still following the scent, they're following a strong scent. How long does a scent stick though in your experience? How often are these dogs brought in? How accurate is it and how long does a scent stick, if you will, in trying to pinpoint when the fugitive passed through the area?

[11:40:00] FOGG: Well, that depends on no inclement weather, whether there's rain, snow and so forth. But if you just got clear, pure weather, no, no inclement weather. They can probably - those scents could probably last up to probably several days, at least week or so that those scents can last. And again, I'm not a dog handler, but I've worked with these cases, and they picked up the scent - I have seen the scent being picked up at least a couple days even after the people where they were supposed to be.

BOLDUAN: And one new element that the sources are telling CNN is that, the prison worker, the female prison worker Joyce Mitchell, she actually brought in hacksaw blades to give to these men. From your experience in tracking down and dealing with a lot of these cases a lot of these fugitives, a lot of them get help, but how do they smuggle in hacksaw blades? How does it get through?

FOGG: Well, I mean, if you're a prison guard and you bring them in, that's easy because pretty much you know the system. I mean, that's like me and law enforcement. I could bring stuff into my office that maybe somebody else couldn't bring in. So that part is easy, to me that is hard and that is difficult. But the fact that she gave these guys hacksaw blades, I mean, that's like giving a dog a bone. I mean, the bottom line is you're really complicity in these guys getting out and trying to help them.

Now, I understand they had power tools to maybe she's blades were some type of used in the power tools that they had, but that's just amazing to me when I hear that.

BOLDUAN: Yes. That is amazing, and then the district attorney there says that eventually she will be facing charges, that's for sure but right now she's cooperating with them and trying to get them information as they try to track these guys down and he hunt is on. Matt Fogg, thank you so much. Great to see you.

FOGG: Thank you. Great to be on your show.

BOLDUAN: Of course. Coming up for us, more troops could be heading to Iraq soon apart from the 450 that President Obama has promised this week, but will the new move that they're discussing, will it help stop ISIS? We're going to talk to an expert about that next.

And tourists beware. Don't take naked pictures on top of Mt. Kinabalu. Probably goes without saying. Well, why some residents think these top list climbers actually caused an earthquake.

[11:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New this morning, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, is saying that more U.S. troops could be headed to Iraq and multiple outposts or as he describes them lily pads, they might be opened as bases near the front lines to help further support Iraqi forces.

That is in addition to the announcement this week that the White House plans to send 450 additional troops - U.S. troops there. What does this all mean though for the fight against ISIS? What does this move mean? Let's bring in Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt for much more on this.

So General, this move described, this potential move described by Martin Dempsey, this concept of lily pads, it's not necessarily an entirely new concept, but new in the terms of the fight against ISIS. What does it mean to U.S. - what you think this move means?

BRG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR POLITICAL MILITARY AFFAIRS: Well, I think it's a wise decision on the part of General Dempsey if they go through with it. We've seen in the fight against ISIS that the Iraqi troops often fall back because they don't have fuel, they don't have ammunition, they don't have water, they don't have reinforcements. Setting up these lily pads near the front lines makes sense. You stage reinforcements and logistic there is so if you do have breakthroughs on the front line, you have reinforcing elements that can bolster the line and possibly bring in additional American support if necessary.

BOLDUAN: But, General, getting closer to the front lines, doesn't that also mean getting U.S. troops closer to combat?

KIMMITT: Well, they're going to be protected bases, number one, and I think, in fact, that this is a compromise between the notion of actually putting U.S. advisers inside of Iraqi units. This way they're still away from Iraqi units, but close enough to provide assistance if necessary. My personal view is we would be much better off if we put small elements of special forces inside those Iraqi units. That would cause them in my mind to stand and fight.

BOLDUAN: You know, short of that, General, you know, you have heard a lot of concern raised by folks at the beginning much this fight against ISIS of the concern raised about mission creep. From your view, could more U.S. troops heading to Iraq in these support roles closer to the front lines, does that mean mission creep?

KIMMITT: No, because I think when you talk about mission creep, when you start seeing battalions, formed U.S. battalions and brigades going over there to fight in active combat, I believe that's a strategic shift in mission creep. In this case what you're seeing is some tactical modifications, but the fundamental strategy of doing this by, with, and through the Iraqis, let the Iraqis do the fighting, we provide the logistics, we provide the equipment, we provide intelligence, we provide air cover, I think that still is a way of fighting this war that, number one, is correct, and number two, that the American people can support.

BOLDUAN: And they're definitely looking for a way to turn the momentum as they look to try to retake some of these towns. That's for sure, and this is the latest option kind of put on the table. General Kimmitt, it's great to see you. Thanks so much.

KIMMITT: Sure.

BOLDUAN: Of course. Coming up for us tourists are in big, big trouble right now after taking nude pictures on top of a mountain and it's not only that, they're blamed for by some for actually causing an earthquake. We're going to explain.

[11:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Four tourists are free from a Malaysian prison. Their crime? Stripping naked on top of mount Kinabalu and posing for pictures. The flour pleaded guilty to committing an obscene act. But people who live around the mountain say their crime was much, much more serious. They blame the back packers for the Malaysian earthquake last week that left more than a dozen people dead.

David Molko has been following this story from Hong Kong. Yes, they consider his ground sacred, David, but cause an earthquake?

DAVID MOLKO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Cause an earthquake, indeed. Kate, you and I have traveled to Malaysia, it's a Muslim majority nation. Conservative on top of that though there are really rural area. It's rain forest, you have farmers and fishermen and indigenous people who consider this mountain, the tallest peak on the island of Borneo in the whole country to be where their ancestors' spirits go. So to see these pictures come out and a few days later to have this earthquake sparked some anger. Sparked some - sparked some - they needed an outlet, so to speak.

Interesting thing here, the judge said the fact that they were remorseful, that they apologized in court, these tourists, was actually good. He handed them al three-day suspended sentence. They're out and you can bet they will certainly be deported. Young tourists, college age, certainly, Kate, they have learned a life's lesson.

BOLDUAN: I would say so. There are a lot of lessons to be learned. I would think you might not need to learn that one more than once. David, great to see you. Thank you very much. An on a very serious note still, that earthquake, they're still dealing with the aftermath of that earthquake on Mt. Kinabalu. It's great to see you David, thank you very much.

Coming up for us. We're going to have much more on our breaking news out of Upstate New York. Sources telling CNN that the two escaped inmates, they are still together and an officer spotted someone in the woods. A lot of developments happening. We'll be right back.

[11:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first time I saw the gorilla, it was magical. I came in the park, immediately I saw a silverback. He sat right there and looked straight in my eye. I felt something in me that I couldn't define. At the time, I was finishing my law degree but I felt I needed to get much closer to nature. I came to work as a ranger. I was in charge of protecting the mountain. We have a lot of people protecting the fact.

I went to talk to their families to ask them why are they getting clearance. The old man look at me and say, your kids are starving to death. Would you put in your family before a change we will survive. It is then when it opened up for me. So I thought of an idea of putting them in there and I thought I could do more here. How come to use tourism to help communities improve the livelihood.

So by this we can save the tourist, our local food, our ways of living. Tourist can give back to the community then the communities will have an incentive.

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