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DR. DREW

The Prison Worker Who May Have Been Involved In Their Escape Says One Of Those Inmates Made Her Feel, "Special"; The Police Officer Who Body Slammed The Teenage Girl Offers An Apology And Explanation; The Police Officer Blaming His Behavior On Events That Had Occurred; Caitlyn Jenner Makes Her First Public Appearance Since That Vanity Fair Article; An Elementary School Student Narrowly Escapes Death As She Is Dragged By Her School Bus; A Man Records His Debilitating Panic Attack and Posts It Online

Aired June 11, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(21:00:18) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Thank you, thank you. Thank you all. Tonight two convicts, their escape from behind bars. Calm down,

calm down, they cannot hear me. Their escape from behind bars and we cannot go any further than that. Was it love that set them free?

And, the police officer who body slammed the teenage girl offers an apology and explanation. It all starts now with the "Top of the Feed."

Two convicted killers on the run. The prison worker who may have been involved in their escape says one of those inmates made her feel, quote,

"Special." Is not that special? Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Investigators police Joyce Mitchell who worked in the prison`s tailor shop, planned to pick up Richard

Matt and David Sweat after their escape. But, according to a source familiar with the investigation. Mitchell changed her mind at the last

minute and was a no show for the convicted killers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TED CONOVER, FORMER CORRECTIONS OFFICER: An all male institution to be a woman is a very special thing. And, even if you are an ordinary

looking woman, you get so much attention. And, there are people who will try to game you and take advantage of you. Prison is full of hustlers and

make you feel like a beauty queen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Mitchell`s son, Toby, defended his mom to NBC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOBY MITCHELL, JOYCE MITCHELL`S SON: She is not the kind of person that is going to risk her life for other people`s lives to let these guys

escape from prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONOVER: Be careful of this. You do not know these guys. You see them as ordinary people, more or less and they are very charming. And,

some of them are actually attractive and can talk you up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us, Samantha Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University and

Karamo Brown, Social Worker and Television host. Thank you all for joining me. Now, the woman in question is named Joyce Mitchell. Why have they not

charged her with a crime yet?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Well, first of all, she is cooperating with police.

PINSKY: Sure.

SCHACHER: And, she is giving them some very vital information about the prisoners and their plans. So, you can imagine they do not want to

charge her, because then they are afraid that she will stop talking. And, the authorities are not saying they will not charge her with a crime. They

just have not yet.

PINSKY: And, Judy, you gave out a groan during that piece we were just watching. What was that all about?

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, that whole portion about them making these women feel like beauty queens, making them feel special.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: Right? I mean this is the unfortunate thin. You are right. This particular prison, these are hardened criminals. OK? A lot of them

have very, very extensive violent histories -- violent histories.

And, there is a way that they do have about charming women or anybody that they need to fulfill their own needs. We know that anti-social

personality. They know what you are looking for and they know how to get it.

SCHACHER: Wow.

HO: And, that is how I feel about this woman, that they saw that she was maybe a little insecure. And, they are like, "Come on, baby. You know

what is going to happen when I get out of prison. We are going to be together. We can work together."

PINSKY: Anything.

HO: It is something like.

PINSKY: And, who knows, whatever they said --

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: Whatever they said, they were exactly what this woman -- if she was involved --

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: Which she maybe. Karamo, you are shaking your head.

KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: Yes, because I am not buying anything you just said right there. Granny right here is gangster. She was

planning this whole thing this entire time. A lot of people --

PINSKY: What? Why?

HO: How would you come up with that?

BROWN: Allegedly, we are saying, you know? But, I am looking at her and I am thinking, this woman has not been manipulated. We think sometimes

our elderly are frail, and they cannot do anything. But this woman had a plan. I believe it in my heart that as time goes on, we are going to start

finding out some things about her. Watch.

PINSKY: I want a test to corroborate. Something is wrong. You believe it? Wait. Wait. You are signing up for that?

SCHACHER: I am signing up for it.

BROWN: Thank you, Sam.

SCHACHER: Thank you, thank you. Where did the power tools come from? Where did the power tools come from? Why did she go check herself into the

hospital for a case of nerves?

BROWN: Thank you.

PINSKY: Wait. But, they have not check -- OK, but you are -- this is all not even -- this has not been associated with her in anyway yet. I

mean there is nothing on the record that associates her with any of this.

SCHACHER: How does she know their whereabouts?

BROWN: Exactly.

PINSKY: We are all jumping to that --

SCHACHER: Thank you.

PINSKY: Well, listen. I want to get Danine Manette in here, Criminal Investigator, author of "Messages For Joey: A few Things I Need You To

Know About L:ife, Friendship, Money, Love, Self." All right, Danine, you work in situations -- circumstances like this. How does this happen?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, just let me be clear. They will charge her eventually. They just do not want to arrest and

charge her now, because once you get arrested, then you have access to either right to have an attorney.

And, they do not want her to have an attorney and get lawyered up, because she will then stop talking. They will not be able to question her

any more, once she is lawyered up. So, they are going to wait and get all the information they can out of her while they still can, before they go in

there and arrest her, and then she will not talk with them anymore. So, they will arrest her, just not until they get everything they need.

INSKY: Danine, that makes sense to me.

MANETTE: Now, situations like --

PINSKY: Yes. That makes sense to me. What does not make sense to me is women being attracted. I mean also in that piece, the audience groan

when the guy in the piece said, "Well, to somebody inside, they may think of these inmates as regular people."

They are not -- you know, they are sort of with them all day, and they are charmed by them. They see them special. What is it? They are all

denying that they had anything to do with whatever they --

HO: Yes.

MANETTE: It happens so much. It really does. I have worked in a situation. There are situations where people, even in juvenile hall where

I worked, where people end up having relationships with the juvenile inmates.

It is a really, really sickening malady. The nursing staff, the educational staff. This happens more than people recognize, because people

do not have those barriers that they need to have, when dealing with inmates and they let them into their personal lives.

HO: That is right.

MANETTE: And, the inmates are predators and they work that.

PINSKY: And, so Judy, we have people helping professionals like nurses, people like that. This one was a Seamstress. They do not

understand about -- you know, they figure that they are invested in helping. And these guys targeted, see it, take advantage of that

codependency. Know exactly how to manipulate it. That is what they are expert in.

HO: That is what they have made their entire living on and why they are probably in jail.

PINSKY: That is how they survive -- how they survive.

HO: Absolutely. And, you know what? They actually learn a lot about the human condition and what people really need. And, I think that this is

exactly what is happened here. And, you know what, this woman probably did not have the best boundaries.

PINSKY: Probably?

HO: And, these individuals -- and these individuals seek out women like that. They seek out these type of women.

PINSKY: We do not know. We do not know. We do not know.

SCHACHER: Cannot this woman, though, look at their records, because these are two really bad murders. One of them --

PINSKY: Good question. Let us ask Danine. Danine, will the people that are sort of in the routine contact with inmates really have an

understanding of what they are in there for or have an access to records?

MANETTE: They have access to records, but you know that -- it is a different person when they are in custody.

HO: Right.

MANETTE: That person is very charming. That person is not on the outside. They do not have the same type of resources.

PINSKY: Yes.

MANETTE: When I go interview people who are dating someone who is in custody, when I say, "What is your relationship with them." They

immediately say, "That is my fiancee." Now, how did they become your fiancee all of a sudden? Because they start sweet talking and they change

the entire conversation once they are in custody. They are a different person and they are very, very charming.

SCHACHER: Can we talk about their records, though? Can we talk about the facts?

PINSKY: Yes. Do you have it?

SCHACHER: Yes. I know of it. One of the inmates, he killed --

PINSKY: Dismembered.

SCHACHER: Well, yes. He killed, tortured, dismembered his colleague. Held them captive for 27 hours to try to get more money out of him. And,

then the other one killed a sheriff -- A deputy. So, if I were to see that, I do not care if I am having like conversation with him, and I would

have to see that in the record that would be enough for me to not have a relationship.

PINSKY: Here is the deal. I am fascinated by you ladies. Because you ladies are the ones that -- I do not see a lot of men hanging outside

the women`s prisons if they are killers.

(LAUGHING)

BROWN: Yes.

PINSKY: I see a lot of women hanging out at the male prison when people like Charles Manson are inside. On the phone, I have Katie Brown.

She married an inmate at the very correctional facility we are talking about here, the Clinton Correctional Facility. So, help me, my dear. What

draws women to guys like this who are in prison?

KATIE BROWN, MARRIED INMATE IN CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: Well, Dr. Drew, I can only speak for myself. I married my husband. I do not

consider him to be, quote and quote, and inmate. I did not marry an inmate. I did not marry a prisoner.

I married Thomas Brown, who is my husband, that is who I fell in love with. A lot of men that are incarcerated, you know, they do -- most of us

do use women, but I do not consider that my situation.

PINSKY: Well, let me ask. How did you happen to go after somebody who was already in a prison? And, then how do you maintain the

relationship once you started it?

KATIE BROWN: Well, my situation, I met my husband, his mother passed away and we are from the same neighborhood. I knew of my husband, I did

not know of him personally; however, I sent him a condolences letter. Basically, sending my love and saying I am sorry for his loss. And, from

there, we hit it off. We kept writing -- writing turn into visits, and we just fell in love.

PINSKY: So, let me ask this one last question, Katie, and thank you for joining us. This prison that we are talking about, you have evidently

visited that prison, where these guys -- from which -- where these guys --

KATIE BROWN: Every weekend.

PINSKY: Well, tell us about -- you know, how extraordinary is it that these guys were able to tunnel their way out or whatever it is they did?

Is it an extraordinarily high security environment?

KATIE BROWN: Yes. I was shocked. I could not believe that these guys really got out. The minute I heard of it, I knew it was an inside

job. There is no way in the world -- if you have ever seen Clinton, there is a wall -- there is a lot of security. Go visit my husband is a process.

We got to go through a thorough security check. So, you know, I was just shocked that these two dudes got away.

PINSKY: Well, I thank you. Again, my understanding is, this thing was built in 1840 and there are walls after walls after razor wire after

walls and it is a pretty --

SCHACHER: There is like pipes. It is like a shawshank redemption for them.

PINSKY: Well, that is what they are calling it. It is a pretty extraordinary situation. All right, thank you Katie. Thank you, panel.

Be right back with more on this conversation and some more to fight about after this.

(21:10:00) And, also, the police officer -- another topic. And, the police officer blaming his behavior on events that had occurred. This is

again the pool party that went bad. Events that occurred earlier in the day. We will get into that also.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:14:30) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Richard Matt and David Sweat may have had help escaping. Police are questioning Joyce Mitchell.

Mitchell worked in the prison`s tailor shop with the dangerous inmates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY JAY LEVINE, FORMER FEDERAL INMATE AND FOUNDER OF WALLSTREET PRISON CONSULTANTS: You are working with people, sometimes for years on

end, and the staff becomes complacent. And, you get into, you know, friendship kinds of relationships with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This woman knows more about what they were intending to do than anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEVINE: You are not going to be able to really cure this problem. As long as you have inmates that are male and female, and then you have

correctional workers that are male and female, you are going to have flirting and you are going to have relationships.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(21:15:12) PINSKY: And, in this case, a prison worker allegedly reportedly says a convicted killer who escaped made her feel, quote,

"Special." We do not know the nature of the relationship. But, investigators want to know if she had helped these two men who have now

been on the run for almost a week.

Back with Sam, Judy, and Karamo. And in the audience I have Larry Levine, former federal inmate and founder of Wallstreet Prison Consultants.

Larry, thanks for joining us. We saw you in the tape there. You are saying it is common for people to fraternize across boundaries. People who

are the prisoners, people who are the prison workers, develop real intimate relationships?

LEVINE: Well, when you work with people day in and day out for years, how could you not develop a relationship? It happens. You become their

friend, their confidant. They are having problems at home with their families, with their kids, with their co-workers, and the staff will talk

to you.

PINSKY: You were a federal inmate at one time?

LEVINE: I was in 11 different federal prisons over a 10-year period.

PINSKY: Did you ever attempt to do that with a staff member?

LEVINE: Actually --

PINSKY: You do not have to tell me. What I want to know is when you did it -- well, it is up to you. But when you did it,did you know what you

are doing? Were you consciously trying to manipulate somebody or was it just friendship?

LEVINE: Actually I was. I knew what I could get away with. I do not want to sound rude. But these are not the brightest people in the world.

They can go around. They can count up to 100; but they are lonely. They are looking for mental satisfaction, and a lot of the inmates are smarter

than the staff.

PINSKY: Did you or your peers aided you to talk about this and did you target vulnerable people?

LEVINE: I do not know that vulnerable people were targeted, because different inmates worked with different staff members. But it was easy to

pick the staff members out that you could approach.

PINSKY: Well, that is vulnerability.

HO: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

PINSKY: That is what that is.

HO: Thank you.

PINSKY: Judy.

HO: That is exactly what I was going to say is that when you -- Whatever you want to call it, whether it is vulnerability, approachable,

boundary issues. You gravitate toward people like that, because you know they will be receptive to you. And, if you can get away with something and

get something from it, why would not you do that?

PINSKY: Danine, our question to you is, should women even be working in maximum security prisons?

HO: Come on?

PINSKY: Well, it is a question. I am just asking. Should they be in there at all?

MANETTE: Sure.

PINSKY: OK.

MANETTE: Sure, that is just like, you know, in teaching professions, or whatever. Absolutely. But, you have to be mature enough to establish

your boundaries. In any type of situation, people are going to take advantage when they see a crack in the armor, and they are going to go for

it.

And, these people, you know, they are manipulators. They are predators. This is who they are. They are not necessarily unattractive or

undesirable. They are normal human beings. And, when you let them into your life as a staff worker, then you are opening the door to them being

able to know more about you and to draw you into their world.

PINSKY: Karamo.

BROWN: This is my thing right here. We are forgetting a big piece about this. I know that -- it has not been confirmed yet that she helped,

but we have to go back into her history. She was cheating on her ex- husband --

PINSKY: Allegedly. Some people say that.

BROWN: Allegedly. Well, some of the people -- Her ex-husband came up and spoke up about this. So, we have to think about how she perceives her

morality. How she perceives the world. So, sometimes, when I am hearing this and thinking that she was vulnerable and that she was manipulated. It

just does not sit right with me in this case.

PINSKY: Hang on. Sam. Sam. Judy, wait, wait. Sam.

SCHACHER: Aside from her marital affairs.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: The fact that I do not feel sorry for her one bit, because if she did, I know it I not confirmed, but if she did help these prisoners

out and God forbid they kill somebody then the blood is on her hands too.

PINSKY: Yes. All right, let us go to the audience. Question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hi there. I just got to say, do not you think that these prisoners lost their right to get married in prison?

I feel like --

PINSKY: Hang on, larry?

LEVINE: A prisoner does not lose his constitutional rights at the prison gates, and that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court several years

ago. So, they do have the right to marry. I mean look at Charles Manson in California. He had a woman that was just going to marry him. The

marriage did not go through, but you do not lose your rights.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I feel like they were convicted, and they should wait until they serve their time, their debt to society and

marry when they get out.

SCHACHER: Yes. I love how Charles Manson can get married, but certain same sex couples cannot.

PINSKY: Like the LGBT people -- yes, same sex couples cannot get married. It is ridiculous. That is ridiculous.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

BROWN: But I also think, with the lady that was on air, she said -- Ms. Brown. She said that she went into this relationship not feeling

manipulated and that she is in love with this man. And, so when I hear her story, it only confirms in my mind that this woman allegedly was in a place

where she knew what she was doing and what she was getting into.

HO: Well, Karamo, that is the whole point of deception, when somebody hooks you in like that, you actually do believe it is genuine, otherwise,

why would you put your life for that.

PINSKY: Right. See, I think Katie who we were talking to, had been manipulated by this guy.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: And, it feels real to her. But to be fair, people had a relationships like that in all different kinds whether you are in a cultish

relationship or whether you are in a romantic relationship. That is not going that well. Things can become manipulative. Yes, ma`am?

(21:20:00) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I just want to make a quick comment. I do not really understand how you can find love and comfort in

the arms of a person who could commit murder, like it is such an unloving act. How can you find love in that person.

PINSKY: There is a -- well, first of all, I will ask Larry that question too. Even if they are manipulative but there is this thing that

humans do, it is called denial. Denial is extremely powerful. And, if somebody is love addicted or love needy, or vulnerable or in pain for some

reason, that person sees it, they can go after it. Larry.

LEVINE: Well, let us look at Joyce Mitchell since she is the subject. She meets the criteria of somebody who is lonely. She is overweight. She

is not real attractive.

PINSKY: My understanding is, you described her -- you profiled her before she was ever identified --

LEVINE: I profiled her before the FBI did, before any of the news organizations did. She meets all the criteria, and he mentally got into

her head. They -- I believe -- now, this is speculation of course.

PINSKY: This is your personal opinion.

BROWN: Yes.

LEVINE: Based on things that I saw while I was in custody. I personally have knowledge of female staff members that had sexual

relationships with inmates. And, it was common knowledge in the institution and nobody did anything about it.

PINSKY: So, bizarre to hear. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Yes, I just want to make a quick comment. I think that when it comes down to Katie, the young lady we have on the

phone.

PINSKY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Ms. Brown, that we have to consider the fact that people get married for different reasons.

PINSKY: Yes, they do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: You know? And, so if she had her reasons for it, it is unfortunate that he is in prison. When it comes down

to the woman who is involved with this case of this gentleman, it is a matter of unprofessionalism, because it is her job.

PINSKY: Yes. I agree with you. A lot of what we are talking about this week and today especially is people who we hold to a certain standard

not doing their job the way we like them to do.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Whether it is the pool party, which we are going to talk about in a few minutes or it is this woman or it is other people. Larry,

you saw fraternizing with the personnel, the prisoners. It is about boundaries, and somehow we lost track of that in this country.

SCHACHER: That is right.

PINSKY: CNN is writing this big thing on the `70s. The `70s is when boundaries ceased to exist. Whatever you are into, man. Whatever you are

into. The end.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: I know, I was an adolescent kid, "What the hell is going on here? That is why I was so sensitive to it and saw it so vividly. And,

now we are trying to regain the abilities, understand what is healthy and what is not. Judy.

HO: That is right. And, we have this reaction, the two of us especially, because we are licensed professionals. And, we have a board

that actually helps us monitor our professionalism.

In this case, this individual, she is not on a board, but it is almost as important if not more important for her to hold her boundaries too.

There is just no governing body. There is not even an essential place that you can go to advice about this type of thing.

PINSKY: I got to get out. Mental health is about dealing with reality on reality`s terms. Seeing reality for what it is. Seeing people

for who they are, not being in denial about something and then maintaining healthy boundaries, think about it, we are back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Next. This Texas police officer is now blaming his behavior on events that occurred earlier that day. Stay

with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:27:20) CHIEF GREG CONLEY, MCKINNEY POLICE CHIEF: Eric Casebolt has resigned from the McKinney Police Department.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(CROWD SCREAMING)

UNIDENTIFIED 14-YEAR-OLD TEENAGE GIRL: Call my mama. Call my mama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. JANE BISHKIN, ERIC CASEBOLT`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The video that everyone has seen only depicts a small part of Eric`s actions that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CONLEY: He came into the call out of control, and as the video shows, was out of control during the incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE TEENAGER: Sir, we just came here. We do not know what is happening. He is like, "I do not care. Sit down."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hold up, sir --

ERIC CASEBOLT, OFFICER WHO BODY SLAMMED A 14-YEAR-OLD GIRL ON THE GROUND: I told you to stay. Get your (EXPLETIVE WORD) is down on the

ground!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. BISHKIN: He apologizes to all who were offended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEBOLT: On your face!

(CROWD SCREAMING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WHITE FEMALE RESIDENT: It is absolutely ridiculous. At the end of the day, the children screwed up and they did not listen to what

the police officer said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE PRESS: Why did not he come today?

ATTY. BISHKIN: Honestly, the death threats. He is worried for his family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Judy, and Karamo. That attorney for the police officer says, quote, "He let his emotions get the better of him."

She attributes his behavior to two calls he had received prior to going to the pool party. Sam, tell me about that.

SCHACHER: Well, his first call of the night was to a suicide. A father had shot himself in front of his family and at the people out in the

apartment complex pool. So, not only did he see the dead body, but he also consoled the wife that night. Then he went over to a suicide attempt where

he helped talk a teenage girl down from her parents` roof.

PINSKY: So, he arrived, Judy, spent emotionally. But, police, they do not think that way. They do not pay attention to that. They feel like

it is their job just to keep going, right? So, he gets three 911 calls. He is going in, jacked up after a suicide.

HO: That is right. The culture of the policeman is to actually respond to the call. And, actually, they may have protocol that, "Hey, if

we call you, you have to go."

PINSKY: They could be accused of cowardice, right? Which is the ultimate no, no.

HO: Exactly. And, so, do they want to get fired? Do they want to get a reprimand? So, they do it. And, also, the culture does not say,

"Hey, think about if you are ready to do this, and if you are not, actually say so, and we will get back up."

PINSKY: But there is no --

HO: There is no protocol for that.

PINSKY: There is no protocol.

HO: There is no protocol.

PINSKY: There is no culture. There is no nothing like that. Last night, I asked the former NYPD officer, his name is John Cardillo. If the

officer should have pulled himself through all this, after he had been through what he had been discussing. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: He does not have a choice. police officers do not choose the jobs they respond to. The dispatcher

goes over the radio and tells them where to be. And, they go and they respond. They do not have the luxury of saying, "Hey, I am stressed out.

I am not going to show up."

(END VIDEOC LIP)

PINSKY: Joining us in the audience, Attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar of Counsel to the Cochran law firm. Anahita, death threats for this guy.

(21:30:00) ATTY. ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is so wrong, Dr. Drew. I mean his conduct is inexcusable. I agree with the

police chief, but there is absolutely no reason why anyone should be threatening his family, his children, his life. It is totally

counterproductive. And, it takes away, it detracts from the issues that we really need to be talking about.

PINSKY: However, you said that you agree with the police chief. I do not know how the panel feels about this. But, last night, people are very

concerned about that police chief, throwing this guy under the bus before there was any investigation. I understand them distancing. They do not

want to do anything with this, but this guy --

BROWN: I am happy that they threw them on the bus. This guy is a coward and he is ridiculous to me. And, so, I am happy that he is off the

force. I am happy he is not going to be around. And, even the fact that he did not show up to this press conference, just shows you how much of a

coward he is.

PINSKY: I want to bring in my Gunnery Sergeant. Do we have her available right now? She supposed to come in the next block, but I figure

somebody better represent law enforcement here. There you are.

(LAUGHING)

JESSIE JANE DUFF, GUNNERY SERGEANT U.S. MARINE CORPS (RET.): Yes. I am here.

PINSKY: Hold on. Of course, this is Jessie Jane Duff. She is a Gunnery Sergeant U.S. Army (Ret.). Go ahead.

DUFF: Marine.

PINSKY: Marine. I beg your pardon.

DUFF: United States Marine. OK. First of all, before anybody calls anyone a coward. I would like to see them put their lives on a line to

defend others, which I have done. So, I would not call this officer ever a coward.

He had 10 years of serving in the police force, and did not earn the rank of corporal by being a schmuck. I watched this entire video from the

beginning to the end. It is probably, oh I do not know, maybe five or six minutes long.

The young women or young ladies were asked several times to leave the area. Asked to disperse several times. Yes, he was ramped up. Yes, he

was upset, because it was a tense situation. They kept ignoring him.

This particular female, when the other males were sitting on the ground, she decided to walk across the street, walk back and forth. It was

quite obvious, she was ignoring the officer.

PINSKY: Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: She is a child. She is a child in a bathing suit. And, I will call him a coward for his actions. This is a little girl. We are not

going to play with it ever again. No, we are not going to do that.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Jessie, hold on a second. I want to show you what happened last night. Mike Catherwood and Rolonda Watts got on this very issue. Go

right to it.

MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST OF "LOVE LINE": if there is a ruckus to the point that I am feeling like I need to call the cops in my street and when

I walk outside, I see one of my neighbors having her hair pulled by kids that I do not know, they are not going to have video of a cop beating that

little kid. They are going to have video of me kicking the crap out of that little kill.

PINSKY: All right. Hold it right there.

CATHERWOOD: Because I am protecting my family.

PINSKY: Hold it.

CATHERWOOD: And, it is like everyone is rushing to this -- and I understand --

WATTS: What threatens your families with kids in bathing suits. Do they have bats? Guns? Knives?

CATHERWOOD: No. No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: In the audience is Rolonda Watts. She joins us again tonight. "Sundays With Rolonda" is her program -- is her podcast.

Rolonda, we welcome you back to have this conversation.

ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "SUNDAYS WITH ROLONDA" PODCAST: Thank you. Thank you. It is so nice to be back.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Clearly, I did not know you were going to have a kindred spirit in Karamo necessarily, but you do. Do you want to respond to Jessie

Jane?

WATTS: Well, you know what? I think we have an issue here of a lack of civility. I think we have a lack of respect for each other. I think we

have a lack of integrity and ethics when we come to our jobs.

You know, I have been a New York City News reporter in the fray. I cover five rapes in a week, but I wish I would go back on the street whoop

somebody`s butt because I have a bad day.

That is not the way we roll. That is not the way we conduct ourselves, and especially not against children. We cannot forget. These

are children in bathing suits, Dr. Drew. And, you understand this. What will be the psychological effect on these children?

PINSKY: Some of them are lovely kids.

WATTS: Because some people say, the hunted will become the hunter.

PINSKY: Yes. That is true.

WATTS: The hunters will become the hunters.

PINSKY: Anahita.

SEDAGHATFAR: I think that is a discussion we need to have. And, I disagree with you, Karamo. These were children, but at the end of the day,

we need to talk about what we are teaching our children with respect to how they are interact with cops.

WATTS: That is true. I agree with you.

HO: Yes.

SEDAGHATFAR: I think we need to teach them to comply. If the officer did something wrong, deal with it later --

PINSKY: Yes, go complain to the police chief that threw this guy under the bus.

BROWN: I do agree with that, that we do need to talk to our kids about that. But when you have a child that sees a man acting erratic with

a gun. There is not any chance. Even me as an adult male, If there is a male cop around who maybe wielding his power saying, "Get down, get down."

I do not know how I might react in that. Sometimes, when you have fear in your heart, you may react in a way. She was not saying anything of

like cussing him out. All she was saying is "I want my mom. I want my mom."

PINSKY: Let me get Jessie Jane back in. Jessie, go ahead and respond to Karamo there on that.

DUFF: First of all, I want to make it very clear. I am not justifying the officer`s actions. But I would never call an officer who

wears the uniform a coward. That is my issue. When I watch this tape, there is one part that many people has missed.

You will see a man -- he is running away, he has a brown shorts on and a blue shirt. This is what happened when I saw the slow motion film. They

have show him. He takes a shooting stance. His legs separate, and he squats down and his left hand goes behind his back.

That is when the officer stood up with his gun. Many people do not see that, because the video is moving so quickly, and as he runs away. He

yells at other officers to go after him. He thinks he has a weapon. Then he holsters his weapon and proceeds with the female. So, what I am trying

to say is, is that this was a nasty situation.

PINSKY: Right.

(21:35:00) BROWN: Give me a break. We are watching this on tape replay over and over again. I see the little boy that just slipped and

grabbed and they wanted to run. I did not see someone who is going into his pants for a gun. That is ridiculous.

DUFF: No, you do not. Of course, you do not. You are not a police officer.

BROWN: But, I am a human being. So, I can watch this.

DUFF: Let me finish. Let me finish.

BROWN: No, you let me finish.

DUFF: Let me finish.

BROWN: I can watch this. And, I can see a young African-American male that is afraid for his life in a country.

DUFF: That is a young white male. When you are in a position of being in an authority and you see someone take a stance but you do not know

if they have a weapon or not, everything there happens within less than 20 seconds --

BROWN: I want you to walk one day in this country as a black person. That is what I want you to do and then you start telling me if someone is

going to do that.

PINSKY: Karamo. Karamo. And, this is what I want to -- If it is possible to like this topic, this very issue, which is that -- and Rolanda

you will appreciate that.

WATTS: I love this. Can I just say -- I would come and kiss both of your cheeks right now.

(LAUGHING)

WATTS: I love that you have the courage to dill with this issue.

PINSKY: And, I want to get drill into what is under it. Why certain -- why Jessie Jane has her point of view, and Anahita has hers and you guys

have an impassion view of your own.

BROWN: Yes.

PINSKY: Maybe I should show this tape. All right, yes there is a tape of a conversation I had with Vanessa. You know, Karamo, our friend

Vanessa, here one of our panelist. And it -- to me it kind of in there somewhere is what we got to drill into. So, we will keep this going after

the break.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER: And later, Caitlyn Jenner makes her first public appearance since that Vanity Fair article. We have new

photos, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:40:50) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:12:30) CASEBOLT: That way!

UNIDENTIFIED TEENAGE GIRL: Do not talk (EXPLETIVE WORD)

CASEBOLT: Get your (EXPLETIVE WORD) home!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAHI ADISA BAKARI, FATHER OF A 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL ALSO STRUCK BY OFFICER ERIC CASEBOLT: This guy was just out of control. He should be drug tested

and then fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROWD SCREAMING)

UNIDENTIFIED WHITE FEMALE RESIDENT: I think what he did was all right to pull his gun. He did not shoot anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEBOLT: I am going to tell you one more time. Get your (EXPLETIVE WORD) out of here!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAKARI: I think the only reason is because they were black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WHITE FEMALE RESIDENT: I think he deserves a medal for what he did. I really do. I do not believe he was out of line one bit.

Those kids were taunting them and cursing them out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, how can people see the same thing and have different feelings about it. And I do, Karamo, so appreciate you letting your

feelings out here. I was on my KABC program -- radio program earlier yesterday, and a guy called in. He was saying, "There is tens of thousands

of youth African-Americans dead at the hands of cops." And I was like, "What?" But I thought, no, let us stand back and realize. Something makes

him feels like that.

BROWN: Yes.

PINSKY: So, I got it into with our friend, Vanessa -- Vanessa Barnett, of course last night during our after show. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I had a little conversation with a guy today that said, "There is tens of thousands of black youth dead?" What? There are not

tens of thousands of murders in this country. Let alone hundreds. Let alone dozens of police killings.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No. He is exaggerating a bit. There is an issue.

PINSKY: But, people feel that way. That is what bothers me.

BARNETT: There is a history of police brutality against African- American people that is not that far removed. And, so you have to --

PINSKY: To be fair, it is a half a century ago.

BARNETT: It is 30 years ago. And, that is just one generation. That is my mother.

PINSKY: The 80s. The 80s

BARNETT: OK, 40 years ago. 40 -- 50 years ago. But, when you are talking about --

PINSKY: Half a century.

BARNETT: Yes. Yes. I have to calculate. I thought it was 30, I agree with you there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, I am back with Judy, Karamo and Sam. And, we have Rolonda and Anahita in our audience here. And, you see -- what she said to

me is we walked out that night, Karamo -- She says, "You know, I got a household, my mom, my grandma, and that history lives in my house."

WATTS: And, she does not even know how many years ago it was.

PINSKY: Because it is now for her.

WATTS: Because it is now for her, and she does not know her history, perhaps.

PINSKY: It does not matter, because the emotions --

WATTS: Because it is still now.

PINSKY: -- the emotions are here.

WATTS: That is right.

PINSKY: They are now and how do we help everybody else understand that African-American households have this living in the household.

WATTS: Because it is in experience.

PINSKY: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. I got to -- So when it is confirmed by everyone holding their cameras out and taking pictures of

these phenomenon, there it is, there it is. We have been telling you. That is what we have been telling you all along. So, what do we do with

it?

WATTS: But, you know, something. Well, I think what we do with it, Dr. Drew is we as a beautiful nation. And, it is gorgeous mosaic, that we

recognize that we have an issue, but we are all in this together.

HO: Right.

WATTS: If one of us is in trouble, we are all in trouble.

PINSKY: Rolonda. Excuse me. Excuse me. Rolonda for president. At least senator, please. At least, Senator. We need that together.

(LAUGHING)

WATTS: But, really -- But no, really, I think what is so beautiful about what you are doing, Dr. Drew, and I really applaud you on this, is

having the courage to have this type of dialogue and open conversation with all types of -- and generations.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: I think everyone is afraid of it, and it does not scare me. It is our history. Let us own it. Let us look at this.

WATTS: Dr. Drew, wait a minute. I do not know if you remember this. I remember drinking colored water. And, I am not talking about Kool-Aid.

I grew up in -- and not Gatorade and all that other stuff you all are drinking.

(LAUGHING)

I grew up in North Carolina and I remember having to drink in a colored fountain. I am the last generation that will remember that. And,

that is why I am going to be up here. This is your new civil rights movement, millennials.

PINSKY: The camera. The camera.

WATTS: This is your turn.

PINSKY: The camera is what --

WATTS: The camera is your freedom, and I -- freedom of our first amendment right, but what we have been trying to tell America forever. We

have seen them hanging in the trees. We see our boys shot every day. We see our husbands are afraid every day. That is an American reality. It is

truth. You cannot handle the truth.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Let me talk to this young lady in the audience. Go ahead. Yes, ma`am.1

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I think something that may help or brings immunity to the situation is that, sometimes we just want people to

admit when something is wrong. And, instead of that happening, we look into every technicality that we can, to justify the situation.

Maybe the oatmeal he had that morning, or maybe he just work up on the wrong side. And, there is a responsibility that we have in our jobs, that

they especially have these officers to uphold their citizens in the right manner.

(21:45:18) PINSKY: All the citizens.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: All the citizens.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: And, if there is something like that that happens, you may feel that there is some technicalities that might

have been influenced that, but just to say that was messed up. It is wrong.

PINSKY: It was messed up. It was wrong, but Anahita, due process.

SEDAGHATFAR: Due process.

PINSKY: And that is what makes people frustrated--

SEDAGHATFAR: And, he did apologize through his attorney. He said he had a very rough day. And, that is one of the questions I had. OK. So,

he responded to two suicide calls. He was under emotional distress. But, why is it not protocol, that if you are still like in a mental state that

you cannot respond to a call, you take a time out. You wait for a moment --

PINSKY: They would never even identify this such. They would never even think to look at it that way.

SEDAGHATFAR: He seems to have acknowledged.

PINSKY: Now, in retrospect somebody is going, "Dude, you should not have gone in there."

SEDAGHATFAR: He himself is acknowledging that, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I agree.

SEDAGHATFAR: And, let me just respond in terms of the discussion about race. You know I said this a thousand times on your show. We do

need to have a frank discussion of the role that race plays in our criminal justice system. I agree with everybody. But, in this particular case, I

do not think we have the evidence that it was race related.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: Hold on. In the very beginning, the reason why this all started, and this is according to the teenager that filmed it, who is a

white teenager. He said that it all started because one of the adults, who was a white female, told these kids who actually live there, the majority

of them, to go back to section 8 housing. So, those racial slurs started it.

SEDAGHATFAR: But, the police officer`s actions, I do not think we can just conclude that, at least not yet. Even the department has not been

able to --

PINSKY: There is something wrong -- going on in that community.

SEDAGHATFAR: Perhaps, it is lack of training.

PINSKY: Last question, real quick.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I am a British citizen, and I am a black British. And, one of the issues that I wanted to sort of address in

this, is that we do not necessarily have this issue back home.

PINSKY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: And, a lot of that is because of police brutality is not as aggressive in terms of -- Our police officers do not

carry guns. And, so, civilians do not have that element of fear as they do here.

PINSKY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: So, when you see that young boy running, and the cop pulls out his gun as a way of, you know, emulating his

power. I think that is completely wrong, and I think it is that context of what is actually being communicated to people through police power that

needs to change in America.

PINSKY: I agree with you. We are going to keep this conversation going. Everyone in the audience who wants to keep this going, come back on

Monday. We will keep this conversation. We will be back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Next, an elementary school student narrowly escapes death as she is dragged by her school bus. Her heroic

rescue we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:52:00) PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my panel shares what is trending on their Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter feeds. And, it is

Sam first.

SCHACHER: OK. So, all of our Twitter, I am seeing everyone talking about Caitlyn Jenner. She is made another appearance since the unveiling

of her "Vanity Fair" cover. And, this was her first public appearance.

And, she went to the Los Angeles, LGBT youth center on Wednesday to discuss her recent experiences, "I making the transition from Bruce to

Caitlyn." And, a lot of people are commenting on how beautiful she looks. She is wearing this high high boots and tight jeans.

PINSKY: She does look good.

SCHACHER: And, a lot of people are applauding her.

PINSKY: There is a picture.

BROWN: Yes.

PINSKY: And, by the way, it was raining here in Los Angeles. Not like she was wearing that umbrella to --

SCHACHER: Yes, she is not trying to be a Diva. Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: All right. Interesting. Judy.

HO: OK. So, this one is Pat Robertson at it again. This time he is talking about why a woman lost her baby, who was only 3-year-olds when the

baby die.

PINSKY: Is he going to blame the baby?

HO: He has -- just watch this. He has a crazy explanation for why her baby died.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: A co-worker confronted me in the break room and said she cannot believe in a God who let her baby of 3 years old

die suffering a long battle in and out of hospitals. Why did god allow my baby die, suffering a long battle in and out of hospitals -- while he heals

other children. She asked me, "Why did God allow my baby to die?"

PAT ROBERTSON, "THE 700 CLUB" HOST: As far as God is concern, he knows the end of beginning. And, he sees a little baby, and that little

baby could grow up to be Adolph Hitler. He could grow up to be Josef Stalin.

He could grow up to be some serial killer or he could grow up to die of a hideous disease. God sees all that. And, for that life to be

terminated while he is a baby, he is going to be with God forever in heaven. So, it is not a bad thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Listen to that logic.

HO: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: None of us should live because we all could have bad things happen.

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: And, by the way, why did not God step in and take care of Adolf Hitler.

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: Why did not he get those guys when they are 3 years old.

SCHACHER: Right.

HO: Right. I mean, that is a completely illogical, Dr. Drew. Perhaps God saw what? Baby Hitler draw a cute bunny, we are going to spare

him now? What? It does not make any sense.

PINSKY: How abusive to that woman. How emphatic. It is so sad.

HO: Yes. I know.

PINSKY: All right, Karamo. Go ahead.

BROWN: Now, this story is just like this, talking about a young baby. There was actually a little girl. She is 7 years old. When she was

getting off her school bus. Her backpack got caught in the door, and she was actually dragged. Neighbors were saying that she was dragged for about

300 feet. They were just watching this.

PINSKY: Oh my God. Look at that.

BROWN: It is terrifying as a parent to believe this. Now, her mother has come out and said that -- I know. Now, that red car speeding behind

actually was trying to speed up to tell the bus driver that there is a young girl being dragged.

PINSKY: The red car.

BROWN: Yes. The red car.

PINSKY: God bless him.

BROWN: And, eventually the bus driver did stop. Now, the little girl is doing better. But, a lot of parents are wondering, "Why was this even

allowed to happen?" "Why did not the bus driver question and see that this young girl was getting dragged?"

PINSKY: Think about it. You know, we have so much traffic safety paraphernalia around us every day, except our little kids where you stick

on those yellow school buses with no belts.

SCHACHER: I know.

PINSKY: It is so crazy. We do that.

SCHACHER: And, you would think that the door would have some sort of sensor if there is even any little bit of clothing or whatever it may be

stuck inside the door.

(21:55:00) PINSKY: It is crazy. Next up. My "Click Fix." A man records his debilitating panic attack and post it online. Talk about his

attack and mine, after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:59:23) PINSKY: Time now for "My Click Fix." A man records himself in the middle of an anxiety attack, a panic attack, just so others

and himself know what it looks like. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I abruptly stopped taking my medicine. And, I know it is not what you should do. I just wanted to make this video

to show myself that this is what it is like when you do not try to help yourself. You think you can do it on your own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Well, the tape goes for a while. It was pretty intense. I had panic attacks when I was in college. I can tell you. It is like your

brain is like a seizure. It is just like -- it is outside of your -- like something from the outside is coming in. It is something else. Take a

look at it. DVR us, and you can watch us any time. We appreciate it panel. Audience, great job. We will see you next time. Thanks for

watching.

(22:00:00) (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

END