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Massive Manhunt for Prison Break Escapees; Former Speaker Dennis Hastert to be Arraigned; ISIS Selling Priceless Artifacts; Obama Admits 'No Complete Strategy' to Train Iraqis. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired June 9, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The search now extends from Canada to Mexico. It seems clear these murderers had help and authorities have a major lead in that department.

[07:00:02] So let's get to CNN's Polo Sandoval. He's live in New York with the latest.

Polo, they are talking to a civilian employee who they say knew the two men, quote, "very well," right?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris. In fact, much of the investigation today is expected to be focused on this woman while she has not been arrested.

Still, they're trying to find out what kind of story she can share with investigators. You see, police here believe that she may have helped in this very daring escape.

So while that continues, we're trying to essentially get a better picture of what this escape was truly like. And we encountered a man here on the streets, just outside the prison perimeter, with some very unique insight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL (voice-over): The intense manhunt is spreading. The fugitives could be anywhere from New York's north country up to Canada or even south into Mexico, where 49-year-old fugitive Richard Matt is believed to have connections.

COMMANDER RUPERT FERNANDEZ, U.S. MARSHALL COUNTY AREA FUGITIVE TASK FORCE: Anything is a possibility. We really need the public to call in.

SANDOVAL: A law enforcement source tells CNN an employee is being questioned as a possible accomplice. The woman, who worked with inmates tailoring clothing, knew Richard and 35-year-old David Sweat, but she hasn't been charged.

A man who claims to have confronted the escapees in his back yard talking exclusively to ABC News.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were looking around a little bit. As soon as I came across, they ran out of my yard.

SANDOVAL: Many think the dangerous duo could not have done it alone.

RICH PLUMADORE, RETIRED FROM PRISON: They redid that wall twice since I've been working here.

SANDOVAL: Rich Plumadore worked behind these 60-foot walls for three and a half decades. He says he retired from his job as maintenance supervisor of the prison. His daily duties included working in the hidden maze of walkways believed to have served as Matt and Sweat's path to freedom.

PLUMADORE: There's so many tunnels, all the attics, all the catwalks. It's a big maze.

SANDOVAL (on camera): They used that maze.

PLUMADORE: They used the maze. They know exactly where to go.

SANDOVAL (voice-over): Plumadore suspects the escape plan took time and serious know-how to execute.

PLUMADORE: Inmates should never get that knowledge.

SANDOVAL: Cutting at the wrong steam pipe at the wrong time could have been deadly, or at least blown the inmates' cover.

PLUMADORE: You had high-pressure steam coming up these tunnels. You had low pressure. I believe they cut into a low-pressure line, because they couldn't cut into it live.

SANDOVAL: Like the rest of his neighbors, Plumadore waits anxiously for the search to be over and a pair of cunning criminals to be back behind bars.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL: Back out live in upstate New York where, as you may imagine, police do have their work cut out for them. They're telling us that they have at least 300 leads now, many of them coming -- they're coming in from the surrounding area. Others from parts of Canada, even parts of Mexico, Alisyn. Investigators are promising they will follow up on every bit of information they can get their hands on at this hour.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. That's going to be a herculean task. But let's find out how investigators will track down the fugitives. Joining us now is CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes.

Good morning, Tom.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: So you think that these guys had -- it was an inside job; they had help from the inside. And in fact, as you just heard our correspondent talk about, there is this woman who worked in the prison. These guys were apparently prison tailors. She had access to them; she knew them well. How will investigators figure out if she was, in fact, involved in their escape?

FUENTES: Well, they'll be interviewing her. You know, if they're treating her as a suspect and given her her rights, she doesn't have to talk. I mean, she can just exercise her Fifth Amendment rights and, you know, accept employment somewhere else, I guess.

But, you know, when you hear the complexity of getting out of that prison, the catwalks and the six stories high and not cutting the wrong pipe and all of that, you would wonder what this woman, even if she helped them, ] would know about any of all that and how she would have gotten power tools to them.

So to me, there had to be a lot of help, and maybe more than just one or two people at that prison that provided help to them. Maybe somebody on the maintenance department provided help and maybe came in there that night and led them out and told them exactly how to get out of that place through the maze. Because it's pretty amazing that in the dark, they'd be able to do this by themselves by hit or miss.

You know, to me, most people in that infrastructure would probably still be in the maze days later, trying to figure out where to go next and how to get out.

CAMEROTA: Well, sure, and that leads you to believe they also had help from the outside. Because once they popped out of that manhole cover, you say they would have needed somebody to have a car, to bring them money, to bring them change of clothes, to pick them up. All that sort of stuff.

So how -- if they did have help from the outside, how can prisoners, while on the inside, in a maximum security prison, orchestrate an escape like that?

FUENTES: Well, they would have to be looking at who came to visit them? Who did they talk to by telephone? What kind of mail? You know, did they adequately search all of the communications that came to them while they were in?

[07:05:08] Normally, in a prison setting, you have no right to privacy. So if somebody comes to visit, they can record, you know, the conversation on the telephone when the person's sitting there visiting. Read the mail. They can do all of that with a prisoner who's locked up there.

Now whether they did, whether they had the manpower and the resources in that prison to actually do all of that, we don't know. Or, with this woman, if she's cooperative with them or some other employee, and when they were having a session, making clothes or doing other activities under supervision, they could communicate through that person. And that person could be the conduit to arrange for everything they would need when they got out of that manhole cover.

CAMEROTA: So Tom, ABC News is reporting that there was this scary moment Friday night after midnight for these two residents in this upstate New York town. They saw these two guys, they believe. These residents stumbled upon, in basically their backyard, Richard Matt and David Sweat. And they saw two guys roaming around with what they believed was a guitar case. And they said, "What are you doing?"

And the guys said, "Oh, sorry, we're just lost. We don't know our way around," and then they took off running. Those guys, the residents now believe they are lucky to be alive. But do you believe that these two guys are still together?

FUENTES: I don't know. That's a good possibility either way. Because they've known each other many years now, since 2008. They're reported to have been inseparable in prison: eat together, all the activities together, their cells adjoining one another.

But, you know, in terms of making it harder to get caught, if they separated and had a separate way of getting out of there and each one didn't know where the other was going, you know, for their benefit, it would probably be better in the long run.

But we don't know that. We don't know if, you know, they decided they could team up, and it would be better staying together or not.

The other -- the other main leads in this are going to be, do they have girlfriends, wives, brothers, sisters, immediate friends and family outside that prison who came on a regular basis to visit them, and then go to those residents and see, are they missing? Is their car missing? Have they left town? Which might indicate that they picked them up and then drove out together.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, I don't have to tell you, you've been involved in scores of fugitive cases like this. These guys, I mean, in general, these guys are going to get caught. We see their picture. We know what they look like. You know how to find their relatives. I mean, how long do you think it will take for these guys to be captured?

FUENTES: That's another good question. You know, it varies because of the nature of the escape when you're talking about a fugitive. If you have somebody that spent years preparing for the eventuality that they might be on the run -- prepositioned money in other places, false identities, make all those arrangements -- you could have a Whitey Bulger being on the loose for 19 years.

In a case where somebody has an unlocked door, runs out the door, and they're outside the prison yard, then scratching their head, "What do I do now? Where do I go? I've got no money. I've got no food. I've got no clothing." That's an easier catch.

And in that case, you have the dogs, the aircraft, the searchers that, you know, might stand a better chance to get them. Or, in the case of the Pennsylvania killer of the state trooper, where he determined that he was going to stay in the woods near that location...

CAMEROTA: Right.

FUENTES: ... and kill more people.

So, in that case, they kind of had an idea, and he left clues that he had not left the area. But for these two, as you've reported, they had such a head start. They had so much help. They could be in Canada. They could be in Mexico by now. They could be anywhere in the United States. This one is going to be a much more difficult catch, for these two.

CAMEROTA: All right. We'll see what today brings. Tom Fuentes, thank you.

FUENTES: You're welcome.

CAMEROTA: Let's get to Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Former House speaker Dennis Hastert is expected to appear in an Illinois court today. He is accused of breaking banking laws to hide past misconduct. Misconduct that includes allegation of child sex abuse. CNN's Ryan Young is outside federal court with the latest for us in Chicago -- Ryan.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, all eyes will be behind me at this courthouse this afternoon when the former speaker arrives here. He's facing charges of bank fraud and lying to the FBI about alleged hush money that he's paid out to one of the abuse victims.

Now, the sexual misconduct scandal swirling around him has grown. Two people are now accusing Hastert of sexual abuse while he was a high- school wrestling coach in Yorkville, Illinois.

Hastert has remained silent since this indictment came down. But some people have been trying to find him, including us, that so far, he hasn't spoken. We do know he's hired a powerful attorney to represent him. We're told around 2 p.m. this afternoon, those charges should be heard in court. That's 2 p.m., Chicago time. And we do know that, of course, there was one victim's sister came forward to say that her brother was abused while he was in high school -- Chris.

CUOMO: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

We're also learning this morning that ISIS has a new tactic. Instead of destroying priceless artifacts, like the culture haters that they are, they are selling treasures stolen during their ethnic cleansing campaign in both Iraq and Syria.

Let's bring in senior correspondent, Ben Wedeman, live in Baghdad.

What do we know, Ben?

[07:10:03] BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know is that, going back quite some time, that ISIS, as it's gained territory, both here in Iraq and in Syria, has not only been taking over these archaeological sites which total about 4,500 between Syria and Iraq.

Now, we've seen -- we've all seen these videos that ISIS has posted of them destroying things like the winged bull of Nineveh, dating back to almost 1,000 B.C.

But what they've also been doing away from the cameras, Chris, is systematically looting and selling antiques, that -- smaller antiquities, easily smuggled, and selling them onto the black market.

Now we understand at this point, according to Iraqi officials there is even a department within the so-called government of ISIS that issues licenses to individuals, basically giving them free reign to excavate, to loot whatever artifacts they can find. And they eventually make it onto the international black market for antiquities.

Now, just a few weeks ago in Italy, I spoke to an official who's involved in monitoring the trade in smuggled antiquities. He said much of this or a lot of this, these antiquities end up in the United States, which, of course, is, he said, the biggest market for stolen antiquities -- Michaela.

CAMEROTA: I'll take it. Thanks so much for that.

Meanwhile, an urgent health alert this morning from the Centers for Disease Control. They are tracing the path of a woman with a rare and deadly form of tuberculosis. She's in isolation at the National Institutes of Health this morning, and officials are trying to track down people who may have had prolonged contact with her. She spent time in Illinois, Missouri and Tennessee since arriving from India in April. So they have to go retrace her steps on airplanes...

PEREIRA: Sounds familiar. Doesn't it?

CAMEROTA: Yes, it really is.

CUOMO: And I think that, hopefully, the lesson learned is let the CDC do what they do and investigate it. You have one case; it doesn't mean you're going to have a million cases. You know, two cases is not 20 million cases. Let's just take it one step at a time, because the fear always seems to really outfly the risk in these situations.

CAMEROTA: Right.

CUOMO: All right. Let's take a little break there, and then we're going to come back and talk about what President Obama said. He said that the U.S. doesn't have a complete strategy to defeat ISIS. So is that a nod to the complicated nature of the challenge or a nod to the fact that everything is terrible? We're going to cut through the politics and give you the reality, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:16:44] BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't yet have a complete strategy, because it requires commitments on the part of the Iraqis, as well, about how recruitment takes place, how that training takes place. And so the details of that are not yet worked out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Taken in context makes sense, doesn't it? Nope. Not to President Obama's critics. They say it is a sign of weakness. We have no plan. So is it time for a new plan, because we don't like that we don't have a complete plan? We're going to discuss this with people who actually understand the situation stripped away from the political hype that we're being suffocated by.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, CNN global affairs analyst, former Delta Force commander and now the founder and chairman of Tiger Swan. And Hillary Mann-Leverett, co-author of "Going to Tehran." She's worked on the U.S. al Qaeda strategy with the State Department through numerous administrations.

Now let's give a nod, my good friends, to the political blowback that we're talking about, because politics will drive the progress here. This is what the speaker offered up himself as pushback.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: What I'm hoping to hear from the president today is a strategy.

It's time for him to come up with a real, overarching strategy.

We must have a comprehensive strategy.

We need a more overarching strategy.

What we need is a strategy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, here's the funny part. The music, and it looks like a parody. Right? Making fun of the speaker? He released it. He just released that video. That's his own take on what he wants you to know.

So let's discuss. OK. We have eyes on the ground with you. Jim, you know, you've been down there currently; you know what's going on on the ground right now.

And then you've got what's going through the heads of the policymakers.

So let's start with the ground, because that's the reality. When the president says we don't have a complete strategy, Colonel, because we need commitment from the Iraqis as well. They're a big part of this equation. Is that a fair statement?

LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Chris, it is. And I think the real key factor the president said there is the strategy's got to be holistic. Does our military, does the Pentagon, does Tampa (ph), CentCom have a strategy? Yes, they do.

But what I see is we're missing -- and I've spent all this time on the ground, and I see it -- is where is the diplomatic advise and assist strategy? Where are we helping the Iraqis get their government up?

Because remember, we left them in 2011. We worked diligently to get them up, spent billions of dollars to advise and assist the Iraqi government, and then we left. The nice model is, look what we've done in Afghanistan, both politically, both militarily, economically. We have a model that's worked. And now we have to get back into that in Iraq. And that's what the president has to look at, is the other elements than just the military.

CUOMO: You could dismiss what the speaker is doing here and other critics as just more politics. But doesn't it have a corrosive effect, Hillary, in terms of building out the other parts of this strategy?

HILLARY MANN-LEVERETT, CO-AUTHOR, "GOING TO TEHRAN": Well, the constant criticism could have a corrosive effect, or it could be a wake-up moment for the president that he does, in fact, need to have a strategy, not only to tell the American people and to talk to the world about, but actually, to get something done on the ground in Iraq and with the neighbors.

The key focus here is the need -- I agree with my colleague -- for a diplomatic strategy. But it's not within Iraq. The Iraqis are not to blame here. It's not that they are, like our defense secretary said, didn't have the will to fight and just ran away.

We invaded in 2003, a strategic blunder of historic proportions. The Iraqis are not going to able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. We need a strategy that brings in all of the neighbors, including governments we don't like, like Iran and Syria, and we have to have a real stern discussion with some of our so-called allies, like the Saudis and the Turks, that are -- that end up facilitating the entry of tens of thousands of foreign jihadi fighters into Iraq and Syria.

[07:20:32] CUOMO: But doesn't that assume this -- doesn't it assume the reality of a state of play in American politics? Where is the will to do that, Hillary, when it takes so long, may or may not work, and you score no points for it at home?

MANN-LEVERETT: Well, it is a tough thing to do. And we've certainly seen failure, I think, both on President Obama's watch and President Bush's watch. But we've seen other presidents do it more successfully. Not only perhaps President Nixon getting us out of Vietnam, having the rapprochement to China, which reordered the balance of power in Asia.

But we even had, during World War II, we worked with Stalin in World War II. We can work with groups and figures that we don't like to achieve our objectives. But somehow, in the post-Cold War era, we think we're too good for that.

CUOMO: So on the diplomatic side, we're not making friends with the right people. We're not doing enough to get them involved in the fight. That's Hillary's point.

On the ground, Colonel, what seems to be working? What seems to not be working?

REESE: Well, what is working is that the Iraqi people -- Sunni, Shia, Christian -- have one common enemy, and they want to fight and they want to protect their country. There is a nationalistic aspect to it. So that is working. And we have to push that way forward and continue on.

What is not working is the effects of the higher leadership, the leadership aspects. The logistics to go in to support these young people, these new soldiers that are on the ground.

Chris, keep this in mind: we're training the Iraqi soldiers in 13 weeks, and we're sending them out against a formidable force. We do the same thing here. Our young men and women join the military. They do 13 weeks of basic training. They're not ready to enter the battle zone after 13 weeks. It takes a lot longer. Plus, the leadership training that goes in.

So this is a systemic and a long-term piece that we have to help on the ground. But right now, the Iraqi people want to defeat DAISH.

CUOMO: And the colonel keeps saying that the ground, ironically, is actually the easier part. What you do after you take over land, how you help these people to run this place better than they did the last time, is going to be a bigger challenge. And that's going to take more than the U.S.

All right. Thanks to both of you for the perspective, appreciate it -- Mick.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris. A major shake-up in the Jeb Bush camp. Does that signal trouble for the campaign before it even officially starts? John King has that, "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:26:45] CAMEROTA: Calls growing this morning for a Texas police officer to be fired after he was caught on this tape, slamming a 14- year-old girl in a bikini to the ground and pulling his gun on unarmed teenagers. This happened in the town of McKinney after a disturbance broke out at a pool party. That officer, Corporal Eric Casebolt, is now on administrative leave.

PEREIRA: City leaders in Cleveland taking the Tamir Rice case into their own hands. They say they don't trust the criminal justice system, so they plan on using an obscure Ohio law to sidestep prosecutors and go straight to the judge to seek murder charges against two officers involved in the 12-year-old's death.

CUOMO: The U.S. Army's website is back online after a pro-Syrian group hacked it. No, this isn't that massive 4 million one that they blame the Chinese for. This is a different one where the Army had to take down their site after it started displaying pro-Syrian propaganda on Monday. The Syrian Electronic Army, which is loyal to President Bashar al-Assad's government, is claiming responsibility. CAMEROTA: Well, we can't win them all, I guess. Last night, some CNN

anchors including moi, battled it out over '70s trivia. Check out the gracious and subtle winners who won big money for the charity of their choice.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We think it's F. Lee Bailey.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: That is correct.

LEMON: Yes!

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes!

COOPER: How much did you wager? 371 points. That brings you up to 1181. You guys win the game. Congratulations. Nicely done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Hey, you know, I support your efforts. But can I -- you have one point?

CAMEROTA: Well, we bet -- we bet a lot. We bet a lot. But we should have bet and left yourselves two points so that we could come in second. But we tied.

PEREIRA: We have a bit of an issue brewing here at CNN.

CAMEROTA: What is it?

PEREIRA: John Berman, he's dominating.

CAMEROTA: John is a juggernaut.

CUOMO: No greater proof -- no greater proof.

CAMEROTA: "Celebrity Jeopardy," then this.

PEREIRA: Alisyn.

CUOMO: And he very well could have won the first time. But, you know, to win with Don Lemon is a testament to greatness that cannot be underestimated.

CAMEROTA: Oh, I sense some bitterness.

CUOMO: This was a way easier one than the last one, by the way.

CAMEROTA: Says you!

CUOMO: That was easy. It's like, "Hey, the answer is 'Maude.'" I was like, "What was McKinley's dog's name?"

PEREIRA: We can debate this all day but instead, let us flee to "Inside Politics." John King will save the day. Much less controversy in your realm, I'm sure. Right?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT/ANCHOR: Yes. My eyes are telling me I should want to go to Vegas with Berman. But my heart tells me I'd rather go with Alisyn. Sorry.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, John.

KING: We've got a lot to do "Inside Politics" this morning. A busy day, so let's get right to it. With me to share their reporting and their insights, CNN's Sara Murray, Jonathan Martin of "The New York Times."

So a shake-up in Jeb Bush's campaign before he's officially a candidate. That will come next week. He will officially declare. And of course, he's been making his way around the country for months. He's been raising a lot of money.

What do we make of the fact that they brought in this guy, David Cochlin (ph)? Many of you at home, you're not going to know these names. The names themselves aren't that critical. But they brought in this guy, David Cochlin (ph). He was going to be the big guy. Now, they're saying he's going to still be important, but he's not going to be the campaign manager. Danny Diaz, a longtime Republican communications consultant, gets that job. What's the problem here?

SARA MURRAY, CNN: Well, I think David Cochlin (ph) and Danny Diaz bring different skill sets to this table. And when you look at the shape of it, it actually makes a lot of sense. Dave Cochlin (ph) didn't really make sense as a campaign manager. He's kind of a bigger thinking. He's a chief strategist. He's from Iowa. He did a lot there in the state for Mitt Romney.