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Pool Party Controversy; Terror Suspect Shooting Video; New York Prison Break. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 8, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:04] VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Otherwise, you're not going to get in trouble.

And if you think about what that means, you don't have to then think that all police officers are bad. Any human system that doesn't have adequate checks and balances and oversight, and where you give people the sense of impunity, people are going to start acting worse and worse.

That's why you have meat inspectors. That's why you have building inspectors. You have to have checks and balances, you have to have oversight. And when you have a system where it seems that just because someone has a badge and a gun, the media, the grand jury, the DA is going to believe your side of the story unless there's a videotape, something is desperately wrong.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Van Jones and Miller Shealy, thank you.

MILLER SHEALY, CHARLESTON SCHOOL OF LAW: Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Here we go, top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

Two cold-blooded killers have drilled their way out of prison and now are on the run. Now there are schools all around Upstate New York on high alert as I speak. Police are setting up roadblocks, dogs are scouring fields, but, thus far, not a trace of these two men. It's like something, we keep saying, out of the movie like "Shawshank Redemption" or "Escape From Alcatraz here."

The pair smuggled in power tools, sawed through a cell wall, tunnelled their way to freedom, leaving behind these makeshift dummies in the beds just to trick guards to think they were sleeping.

Let me bring in our correspondent Polo Sandoval on the ground there in Upstate New York for what is happening at the moment.

I mean, I know one of these men, forgive the graphic nature of my question, but he chopped up his boss. These are evil -- these are killers, $100,000 bounty for them. What have authorities said thus far about how the heck they did this?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is the major question right now, Brooke.

And you were really describing the case of Richard Matt. And perhaps even more disturbing is that he was able to escape a jail back in 1986, I believe, in the mid-'80s. So, that is clearly a concern for authorities now, that he had done this before. Obviously, he did it again.

And then, given the nature of his crimes, there's some heavy concern that both of these individuals are still out there and a heavy threat for the community. As for his accomplice at least in this jailbreak, David Sweat, some of the details in this case, Brooke, he was convicted in the shooting death of a sheriff's deputy back in 2002, shooting him 22 times, his body then left in a parking lot.

So, some of these stories now and the rap sheet that we're taking a closer look really revealing just how dangerous these individuals are. But back here in Upstate New York, despite the occasional rain, some heavy winds that we are seeing, that search continues at this hour.

We're seeing a very heavy police presence in this -- what is a very small town that really is in the shadow of this huge maximum security prison. But, still, I think what I should note here, Brooke, is that life is somewhat back to normal, where we're seeing people drive to work. This morning, we saw school buses heading to campuses.

However, they were stopping at some of these checkpoints that have been set up throughout the community. Any vehicle that is either making its way in or out of the neighborhood surrounding this prison complex here in Dannemora, New York, is being carefully checked out at this hour, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Listen, obviously a lot of talk about possible help inside, outside help. Tell me about this female worker who is now being investigated as a potential accomplice.

SANDOVAL: Yes. At least one law enforcement source now confirming through CNN that authorities here in Upstate New York are speaking to her, considering her a possible accomplice.

Again, this is information that is just coming out here, however, not confirmed by officials. I had an opportunity to speak to a spokesperson with the New York State Police who said it's at this point too early to confirm that information. But, again, based on information coming out from our a law enforcement source now seems to indicate that this woman, likely, may have helped these two individuals escape.

Now, to what extent, that's still a major question here. We do know that these two men had equipment, power tools that were used and somehow made their way out of this maximum security prison, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Polo Sandoval in Upstate New York, thank you so much.

Just last hour, I spoke to Maino, Jermaine Coleman. He's a rapper. But spent a year -- he said he spent a year at this Clinton Correctional Facility he says when he was a kid. And I asked him, how would you smuggle in power tools and keep them in your cell, especially when having all these cell checks? And could you have done it alone? Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: They cut through steel wall, broke two feet of brick and mortar, cut open metal pipe, out through a manhole. There was even like a lock and change on the other side of the manhole cover.

JERMAINE "MAINO" COLEMAN, RAPPER: Oh, wow.

You're thinking of the power tools--

COLEMAN: Indeed.

BALDWIN: -- necessary to cut that. Where would you hide that in your cell? That's my question.

COLEMAN: There's no place to hide that. See, this is where it becomes movie-like and this is like motion picture. You know, this is almost far-fetched because, I mean, if somebody had told me this, I would have never believed it. The fact that I saw this on the news, it was like, what?

BALDWIN: No, but I'm being serious. Where would you hide power tools?

(CROSSTALK)

[15:05:03]

COLEMAN: You couldn't. I encountered female guards, but I never felt like they were--

BALDWIN: Amenable to your advances perhaps?

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: No, I always felt like maybe they had more of a -- not so much of a pro-inmate kind of attitude.

BALDWIN: Really?

COLEMAN: Yes. Yes.

BALDWIN: So not -- from your personal experience, not easily persuadable to do things for you?

COLEMAN: No. And, plus, I was there at a time when I was very young. I was child. And so I don't think I encountered any female officer or any kind of officer like that that would make me feel like they was -- they were like that.

BALDWIN: No.

COLEMAN: I have heard of cases where female officers have gotten into romantic relationships with prisoners. You know, that's heard about. But I have never heard of anything like they are an accomplice to escape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, a man who has been involved in a lot of manhunts, Matthew Fogg, retired chief deputy U.S. Marshal.

Matthew, welcome.

MATT FOGG, FORMER CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: Thank you for having me on the show.

BALDWIN: Before we get to the actual search for these two, want to just ask you about this piece of news from a source that a female -- as we were just talking about, this female prison worker is being questioned over her role in this. I mean, based upon your own experience here, do you think this is an inside job?

FOGG: I think so.

I mean, I think clearly somebody had to know something. And when it comes down to the power tools, a lot of times in those prisons, that they are able to use the tools, but there is supposed to be a real tight check on when the tools are checked out, when they're brought back.

It's a possibility that in the melee of things working there, maybe somebody lost count of the tools. I don't think somebody actually just brought them inside the prison, but, again, we don't know. And we're talking -- again, talking to this woman, if the FBI knows something about her that can direct them, that would be a great source of information.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me just -- let's talk about the manhunt. Here we are. This is about 25 miles from the Canadian border.

FOGG: Right.

BALDWIN: Where are you fanning outlaw enforcement to find them?

FOGG: Right in that area. You would start in that local area right where the escape started and you just fan out, and you would try to cover that; 20, 25 miles is not that far away.

And, clearly, if they were gone for several hours before they were noticed, they could have easily made that trip. So, again, you have got a real obstacle in front of you. It's not -- you can't -- it's not that you can overcome it, but the bottom line is, they have to make certain that they are -- I'm sure they are looking at everybody that had any contact with these individuals.

I'm sure they are looking at that 100 percent, and then looking at all of the -- any phone calls being made, anything in that area, I'm sure they are checking right now, pictures, just everything, looking at all kinds of cameras in the area. We have got cameras everywhere now. So, they are checking everything at this moment.

BALDWIN: But it is such a rarity to have an escape of this magnitude, and I'm wondering where you would go because you think about that immediate area. I mean, maybe I would head to a train station or an airport, but would you go somewhere familiar to you? Someone may be waiting for you, clothes, help with a new appearance?

FOGG: These are all of the things.

And if you look at these two guys, they can easily fill in, fit in. I looked at their faces and their structures. And they can -- those guys could fit in and be -- I mean, it's not going to be that hard. Say if you had somebody, say a black person escaped at that location, it would be hard for them to fit into those areas.

But these two guys, they can fit in and I'm sure that if somebody helped them from the outside, which most likely they have got somebody that assisted them, and especially with the one guy, knowing that he had an escape record in the past, he knows all of the ins and outs of what to do when you escape.

If he got away before and they caught him, trust me, he probably did most of the detailing of what they are going to do once they got out of here.

BALDWIN: I'm also thinking about the victims' families. Right? I was reading a quote from the brother of Sweat's victim saying the escape has turned his world -- quote -- "upside down all over again."

FOGG: Right.

BALDWIN: I mean, what is this like for them?

FOGG: Well, it's going to be very trying for them. But you can best believe these guys are not trying to commit any more crimes.

Right now, all they're trying to do is--

BALDWIN: You don't think so? Look at their rap sheets.

FOGG: I think they are just trying to get away. Most of the time that we would track these folks that escaped out of prison, most of the time, they was just trying to stay free and get themselves seated into being just into oblivion.

And now not to say that may not years later, but they're not trying to commit any crimes. They are busy -- now, they might commit some crimes in trying to get away, to take somebody's vehicle or something. And you don't even hear about that right now. So, they were very savvy in what they were doing.

They understood that any move they make can bring identity, can bring some attention to their identity. Right now, they are very savvy and making certain -- and I would say they have even split up, because that's one of the--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You think so?

FOGG: Yes. That's one of the standard operational procedures of most escapes, is, when you get outside, you split up. Everybody goes their way.

When we tracked down Bernard Welch, who killed a doctor in Washington, D.C., Dr. Halberstam, it was a major case in the '80s, this guy escaped out of MCC in Chicago. There was all kinds of news and attention on it. He went out with another guy with Hugh Colomb. The first thing they did when they got out, they separated. So, in these cases, you can guarantee they have separated almost.

[15:10:15]

BALDWIN: Hmm, $100,000 bounty on each of their heads, $50,000 for anyone with a tip leading to finding them. Matthew Fogg, thank you so much.

FOGG: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, pool party melee here, tensions at this Dallas suburb after an ugly confrontation between teenagers and police. The father of one of the teenagers now involved speaking out about what happened and why. He is furious.

Also, terror takedown, our first look at what happened in Boston as police shoot and kill a terror suspect who they say charged them with a knife.

And a major development today after a CNN investigation into nine infant deaths at this one Florida hospital.

Stay with me. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:05]

BALDWIN: Just a couple of hours ago, we finally got our look at the surveillance video of that deadly confrontation between Boston police, the FBI and a terror suspect.

This is a piece of the video that Boston police released. It's obviously very, very grainy. Tough to make out exactly what is happening. We have spotlighted the yellow circle here. That's suspect, Usaama Rahim. Law enforcement was tracking Rahim out of concern he was about to commit acts of terror.

You see multiple people surrounding him. They move closer. Police say Rahim held a large knife and lunged at them. And in just a short period of time, Rahim was shot and killed. In releasing the video today, Boston police say the entire incident unraveled quickly.

Juliette Kayyem is here with us. She is a CNN national security adviser. She's a former member of the JTTF, the Joint Terrorism Task Force. She once served as Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick's homeland community adviser.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Hi.

BALDWIN: Good to see you in person.

KAYYEM: Live in person, yes.

BALDWIN: Again, it's tough to make out exactly what is happening in the video. What do you see? How do you interpret it?

KAYYEM: So, you can make out that there was an altercation, that Rahim was not running away. So, at least in terms of the narrative that the police--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: The whole idea of putting -- being shot in the back, as was first reported.

KAYYEM: Right. And that's important, because you don't want this to become a sort of police brutality case, like all the things that we're debating post-Ferguson and stuff.

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

KAYYEM: What you can't tell, at this stage, is -- first of all, there is no audio. So you don't know what is being said and you can't tell what happened at the moment of the decision to use force.

And that's why both the prosecutor, the local prosecutor, as well as the FBI, say that there's going to be an internal investigation which will not involve the Boston police. It will be an independent investigation.

BALDWIN: OK.

KAYYEM: That's important. It may be that the use of force was justified and that there's no cases in terms of whether it was appropriate for the law enforcement to use deadly force.

But that's going to be independent of what the Boston police are doing right now.

BALDWIN: OK. I wanted to read this, just because we just got this statement from the suspect's family, from the Rahim family.

KAYYEM: Yes.

BALDWIN: So, let's just read this.

"The video does not show Mr. Rahim plotting, scheming or planning an attack on law enforcement officers. To the contrary, the video depicts Mr. Rahim walking toward a bus stop on the way to work. Had they shown the entire video, the public would have seen the military- like approach of law enforcement as Mr. Rahim casually strolled toward the bus stop."

KAYYEM: So, they are going to debate the narrative of what actually happened and people just need to separate. There are two different issues. One is, was Rahim a sort of lawful focus of the JTTF in terms of, was there enough on him?

BALDWIN: They have been looking at him two years, 24/7.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: I have seen a lot of weak affidavits.

BALDWIN: Yes.

KAYYEM: They have got a lot on him in terms of the wiretap.

BALDWIN: They do.

KAYYEM: And then the separate issue, which it sounds like the family is going to make, which is, even if he was planning a terrorist attack, that was no justification to kill him.

BALDWIN: Use of force.

KAYYEM: But what people have to understand is use of force is contextual.

If the police and FBI felt that this was someone who was going to do a terrorist attack possibly on a bus, right, so we don't know where he was going to do it--

BALDWIN: Or against law enforcement--

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: And against law enforcement. They are going to focus on whether their -- what's called good faith perception of threat. That's the standard. Is it in good faith?

That's the case that they are going to make. And so the family is clearly litigating this now publicly to say, OK, he may have had the knife, he may have had these wiretaps on him showing that he was going to plan something bad; he still should not be dead.

And I have to say, just looking at it contextually, they have a strong -- the Boston police have a strong good faith argument that this was -- at least their sense of danger as law enforcement was justified.

BALDWIN: OK.

Juliette, thank you very much.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next here on CNN, some heart surgeries for babies are on hold at this South Florida hospital. All of this comes after this massive CNN investigation into the number of babies at this place who were dying. That is ahead.

Also, tensions reach the boiling point in a Dallas suburb after an ugly confrontation between teenagers and police. The father of one of these young teens involved is now speaking out about what happened. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:28]

BALDWIN: A violent confrontation between teenagers and police sparking outrage in the Dallas suburb McKinney, Texas, and protests expected in the next couple of hours.

There is video. And in this video, it shows an officer throwing a teenage girl down on the ground. She's in this bikini here, down on the sidewalk. It comes into the grassy area. Then -- this just moments after he's seen pointing his gun at other teens.

Officers had been called to this community pool after reports of unruly teenagers. Watch for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told you, stay. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the grass!

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep running your mouth.

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Call my mama now! Call my mama. Oh, God.

(CROSSTALK)

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On your face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me sir, I don't believe you need to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm on the ground.

[15:25:02]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you dragging her? What are you doing? Why are you holding her down?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adrian. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to tell you one more time, get your

(EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of here!

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I should point out, what happened before and after this video was taken, that's still unclear.

The McKinney Police Department has not identified the officer, but they have placed him on administrative leave. They call this video troubling. They have launched an investigation. And just a short time ago, we have now heard from the father of one of these girls pushed by the officer. He spoke about how she's doing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAHI ADISA BAKARI, FATHER: She's masking it. She's trying to conceal it. She doesn't want to bring it up. She was with me all day, didn't even try to share it with me, because she knew, if she brought it up, I would be down here (INAUDIBLE) so now -- so now that I know, she's upset. It's out there now. She's upset.

QUESTION: She's not the one that was thrown to the ground?

BAKARI: No. She's the one that was trying to rescue the one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's have a conversation.

Brittany Packnett, member of the Ferguson commission, serves on the White House Task Force on Policing me, joins me. Harry Houck is with me, retired NYPD police detective and CNN law enforcement analyst.

Thank you so much, both of you, for being here.

Harry, I think just first to you, from a law enforcement perspective, listen, we don't know how this whole thing started, but when you see an officer pulling a gun on teenagers and bearing down on this young woman who clearly is unarmed because she's in a bikini, knees on her back, is this an appropriate response?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, this is clear that the officer is totally out of control in this situation.

We have several officers on the scene and he's the only one running around like a madman here. As far as drawing him his weapon, I didn't see any reason for that officer to draw his weapon at all. Although I can't read his mind and see what kind of a threat he was perceiving at the time, but, from my view of this video, I don't see any reason why that officer should have pulled a weapon.

BALDWIN: Brittany Packnett, what do you see here?

BRITTANY PACKNETT, FERGUSON COMMISSION MEMBER: Well, I see an incredibly traumatic experience for a number of young children and I certainly see a response that is not commiserate with the issue.

We have been seeing reports of students were trespassing or young people were not where they were supposed to be. Whether or not any of that is true is really not the point. The fact of the matter is that even if young people were trespassing, that the response should never, ever be assault on a 14-year-old girl.

And so I think what we see is something that we need to see and make sure is known and this officer needs to be brought to justice.

BALDWIN: Harry, to you. Again, we don't know how this whole thing started. There are still a lot of gaps missing here connecting the dots. So many rumors, so I'm not even going to try to explain how I have heard this might have started, but, again, it seems extreme. Do you think the officer should potentially be fired?

HOUCK: Well, I mean, that's a possibility.

And I can't make the decision for the police department there. That's something to definitely look at. Drawing his weapon on young people like that, where I don't perceive a threat, but he might have, that's another story. The fact is, I would have went about this a whole different way.

BALDWIN: How?

HOUCK: When you respond to a situation like this, you go and you talk to your complainant first and find out, OK, what was going on?

We see you have a bunch of youths outside hanging out, playing games, or creating a little bit of a disturbance. A lot of youths do that. You know, black, white, Hispanic, they all do that when they get together. This was a pool party or something like that. I would find out exactly who was involved in the fight and then maybe go after them people.

All right, and at the same time, go over to these kids and say, listen, kids, this party is over. Let's go. Be on your way, please. That would probably have been the best approach.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Right. Right. Right.

Our correspondent that to earlier in the hour, he said he talked to a bunch of young people who were white and a bunch of young people who were black. And he said, for the most part, they are saying this wasn't race-based. But he did talk to this one woman. I think she lives in the neighborhood.

Allen (ph), let's roll that sound.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want everyone to know that that police officer, along with everyone else, they were completely in the right in protecting everyone.

He was not out of line. I completely support him drawing his weapon or a Taser or whatever it was that he did pull, because he was being attacked from behind. I believe that if your life is threatened, that you have every right to pull a gun.

He probably didn't intend on using it. I'm -- I feel horrible for McKinney P.D. and the backlash that they are getting for this. They are here to protect and serve. And they were doing their jobs. I think he deserves a medal for what he did. I really do. I don't believe he was out of line one bit.