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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Grand Jury Indicts Former North Charleston Police Officer Michael Slager on Murder Charges; President Obama Addresses U.S. ISIS Strategy at G7 Summit; Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET.

Aired June 8, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:30] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The only video that they say they have available at this moment, but does something stick out to you in this video? What is striking about it that people need to learn from the law enforcement perspective? What do you see?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I mean, one is that he is surrounded, there were more police officers or more law enforcement than I ever knew.

BERMAN: Yes. That's at least that we saw.

KAYYEM: And so that he is surrounded and then continues to lunge. So that there is an altercation. He is not willing to be outnumbered. Now, whether that justified the use of force is now going to be the question. I think the other thing is it's not going to solve the issue of what was being discussed - like what verbal altercation was going on at the time. Was he saying, you're going down, I'm not giving up. We don't know what was said because it's so far away.

So it's good news, the release. One, it's transparency which is always good and two is it's going to put to rest rumors that this is a typical police brutality case where there was some guy and they just kill him. Just not true. That knife is crazy big and meant for killing.

BERMAN: That doesn't mean there aren't still a lot of questions here but there are some things that are clear now to the public. He was not running away at the time. He did approach the officer and at one point the officers pulled back before they fired.

BOLDUAN: Now the district attorney has said he has not reached any conclusions. He's still in his - the period of consideration and now it's up to him to try to make that determination.

BERMAN: Juliette Kayyem, thank you so much for being with us.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

BERMAN: Really interesting time.

BOLDUAN: Everyone has been waiting to see that. BERMAN: We do have other breaking news going on right now.

Power tools, dummies, smiley faced notes. How did two killers manage to escape from a maximum security prison? Two former inmates who spent time at this facility. They will join us live.

BOLDUAN: Plus, more breaking news. A grand jury has just indicted the police officer charged in the death of Walter Scott in South Carolina. You remember speaking of video, you remember that video. We'll be discussing that coming up next.

BERMAN: And moments ago President Obama said there is no complete strategy yet, much training Iraqis to fight ISIS. No complete strategy yet. What did that mean? Stay with us.

[11:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. We do have breaking news Right now out of South Carolina. A grand jury has indicted former North Charleston police officer Michael Slager on murder charges. You will remember it was Michael Slager, the officer you could see right here on this video, he is the one with the gun there pulling the trigger that ultimately shot and killed Walter Scott. That happened in April after a traffic stop. It was recorded on cell phone video.

BOLDUAN: A bystander recorded the video of that shooting we've seen so many times. Slager was charged almost immediately after this video came to light. He had claimed that Walter Scott tried to - there was a struggle and that he had tried to take his taser during that struggle. Let's discuss this indictment and all this breaking news with CNN Legal Analyst and criminal defense attorney Danny Cevallos.

Danny, it's great to see you. So that video was just shocking when we saw it. I remember talking to you about it when the video had come out but what does this indictment mow mean in light of all this?

DANNY CEVALLOS, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what the indictment means is that - it means the officer has been charged with murder. I don't know specifically what brand of murder, which subsection...

BOLDUAN: But there's a range of possibilities.

CEVALLOS: You have depraved hard murder, first-degree murder, it could be capital murder. It depends on the way that the charging unit down in that county is looking at these facts. But I think in light of a larger discussion about all this police brutality, the question arises are we looking at police brutality in a different way and I think that question is academic because there are many cases that I think have been close calls.

Looking at this, at least in terms of getting an indictment, this is not a close call because you have video evidence.

BERMAN: Right. Shocking video. Damning video. You have the video of this man running away and being shot and ultimately he died of the wounds. Really very interesting to see how it played out. Important that a grand jury had a chance to look at this and weigh in, Danny?

CEVALLOS: It's strange. We have a strange view of grand juries. In a way they are the most democratic way of securing an indictment because the job is given not to the prosecutor, but to the people. But in another way, they don't give us a lot of satisfaction because they are highly secretive.

So you have civilians making the ultimate decision. However, we don't really get a lot of information about how they arrived at that conclusion.

BOLDUAN: So not a huge surprise, if you will, when you have this video. The man was charged almost immediately after this video came to light. Not a surprise. We're going to see this indictment however important.

CEVALLOS: Let me play devil's advocate. I expect that the officer's defense is going to be what we've come to know as the fleeing felon type rule. What that means is an officer, maybe even an civilian, can only use deadly force if the fleeing suspect poses a threat of imminent physical, deadly-type harm to somebody else. So the argument will be that by going for my taser, that qualifies. I was in fear of my life. Because police are trained, if a suspect gets your gun, now the situation is no longer officer with gun. It's unarmed officer versus gun.

So that will be the crux. The problem for them is that a jury practically looking at this video will say a man who ran from you in the beginning, you stopped him briefly, and ran again clearly only wanted to get away and the idea that he posed an imminent threat to anybody is a little bit specious.

BERMAN: And don't forget, we still need to see this indictment, and I think we will learn a great deal of what's going on here when we get to read it specifically but do not forget on this video we also see what a lot of people look at and think could be this officer perhaps dropping the taser near the somewhat lifeless body of this man Walter Scott. I mean, what could have been a cover-up there. I imagine the grand jury would have looked at that as well.

CEVALLOS: Again, so let's look at both sides. So the officer will probably come up with some perfectly explanation for why he was moving items around at a crime scene, but I think ahead to the way that will play before a jury, and it's often said jurors like to arrive at their own conclusions and feel like they did it on their own through their own clouting.

And when they see an officer who is picking up an object that appears to be a taser and moving it at a crime scene, whether the officer had a plan for that that was innocent and lawful, a jury might look at that in a way that will be catastrophic for this officer and his anticipated defense of justification.

BOLDUAN: Danny, great to see you. Thanks so much. Following this breaking news, a lot going on. [11:40:00] BERMAN: We have a whole series of breaking news

today. One of the stories we're on right now, two killers are on the loose right now. Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York says they could be anywhere after a stunning and elaborate prison escape. The question being asked right now, did they have inside help?

A female prison worker being questioned. We just got that word in. We'll investigate that. We'll also speak with someone who spent years inside that prison to get some perspective about just how stunning this breakout was.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. There's a breakings news and it's a shocking news. New York's governor calls it crisis situation. Right now, two killers as savvy as they are ruthless, they are on the loose and these men have nothing to lose. There's also word just into CNN that a female prison worker is being questioned. These inmates, they pulled off a stunning escape from a maximum security prison near the Canadian border over the weekend. At this moment Governor Cuomo says, frankly, they could be anywhere.

BOLDUAN: Prison officials say that David Sweat and Richard Matt, that they used power tools to get out of their cell through the walls and eventually they popped through a manhole on the other side. There's a $100,000 reward out for their capture. Let's talk about much more about this with one person who knows this person from the inside.

Former Clinton inmate Michael Alig who served time there for murder but very importantly to note if you haven't heard his story, he was exonerated of those charges just last year after spending behind bars for 24 years serving some of that time at the Clinton Correctional Facility.

[11:45:00] Mr. Alig thank you so much for being here. Amazing circumstances. Your story I was saying in the commercial break, it's like a movie in and it itself, what happened to you, and then look at this and what's happening right now in upstate New York. You served time there. Can you describe to us what the security situation is like at the Clinton Facility and how surprised you might be that two people were able to get out.

MICHAEL ALIG, FORMER INMATE, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: Well, thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

ALIG: I was very surprised when I hear about this because the security is very tight. So when I heard these guys got out, it was a big shock to me. I didn't think nothing like that could happen, not at Clinton.

BERMAN: It happened that Governor Cuomo said it has never happened there before. So among the things that we've heard are these power tools. They use power tools to cut out of the rooms they were in. Where could they have gotten these power tools in your experience?

ALIG: As for the power tools, the only way I could see them getting power tools would be from some of the recreation, dealing with construction.

BERMAN: Shop or something.

ALIG: Dealing with construction. But the shop is hard because the tools are accounted for. The tools are accounted for.

BERMAN: You sign them in and sign them out.

ALIG: Yes. You sign them in and sign them out. So you know, when you have the construction guys coming in, that's the only way I could see them getting power tools like that.

BOLDUAN: One of the most amazing things I think is the elaborate way they got out, cutting through a wall, shimmying down six floors, then going through this labyrinth of pipes to pop out of a manhole on the other side. It seems impossible they didn't have inside knowledge of the layout of this facility. That sounds like a dumb question but was it common knowledge the layout of the facility? Did inmates talk about this?

ALIG: No. We don't have, you know, common knowledge of the layout of the prison. So for them to have that it would have to be somebody inside somewhere would actually give them this information, the maps of where, what leads to what. He's the only way I could see it happen.

BERMAN: Somebody has got to have a schematic that says there's a tunnel here, there's a manhole here. You go in here, you could come out here. Did you ever hear talk of prison breaks when you were there?

ALIG: Never.

BERMAN: Never? It was just so impossible that it wasn't even something that was more or less discussed behind the walls there?

ALIG: No. Guys are not going to talk about prison breaks. If it's somebody that is considering doing something like that, they're going to keep that to themselves because you have other guys in there that would actually tell the administration what's going on to try to maybe cut day time. That's not something you will hear people talk about.

BOLDUAN: Jonathan, that's an interesting point you make because the governor today when - the governor over the weekend when he made a tour of the facility, he had kind of looked in at one of the cells and said you guys must be pretty hard sleepers if you didn't hear power tools going off in the next cell. Power tools are loud. These guys are cutting into the wall of their cell, it's...

BERMAN: Someone heard it.

BOLDUAN: It's impossible they didn't hear, wouldn't you think?

ALIG: Well, I would think so. I would think that someone may have heard it. But when it comes to something like this, a lot of guys try to mind their business. They don't want to be involved. But I'm surprised to hear something like that you know, dealing with power tools. I'm very surprised to hear something like that.

BERMAN: Let's see this, female prison worker now being questioned right now. Look, it's a male prison. How many female prison workers were you in contact with when you were inside there and how close can you become? How many conversations can you have with someone working inside?

ALIG: Well, it depends what your program is because you may have a program, you know, the civilian may be a female and you'll be in contact with her all the time, every day you're in contact with her. So I don't know what her job was. I don't know if she was a corrections officer or just a civilian running a certain shop but if she was working a shop there's a possibility you can get very close with the women officers.

BOLDUAN: Yes. The governor had said he himself would be shocked if it would be a prison guard and then there are the different levels of civilian and contractors that come and work that he said that they need to focus on. You think that you served during the same time as David Sweat and a period of time when you were there. Did you encounter him at all? Do you have any - did he stand out in any way?

ALIG: No. I just remember the face. You know, I do remember the face and I don't know exactly what facility it was when I was in Dannemore, but I believe it may have been there.

BERMAN: Before we let you go, what's your gut here? What does your gut tell you about what happened?

ALIG: My gut is telling me it was an inside job by someone. I really do believe that.

BOLDUAN: Because it's impossible to think of any other way really. Jonathan Fleming, it's wonderful to meet you, especially here. It's wonderful to meet you. Thank you.

ALIG: Thanks for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course. Thank you.

Coming up for us, moments ago President Obama says that there is no complete strategy yet. Those were his words, in training Iraqis against ISIS. We'll talk much more about that. That came out of a press conference just a short time ago. Fareed Zakaria will be joining us to discuss.

BERMAN: But first, Apple's Annual Developers conference kicks off today. As we wait to see what the company is in store for this year. Hear one man's story about how Apple's technology has changed his life. [11:50:00] STEVE DELUCA, HEARING IMPAIRED FOR 18 YEARS: In 1997

I had a brain tumor. That knocked out the hearing in my left ear, pretty much about 85 percent of the hearing. And I got a hearing aid that kind of

opened up sound to that side and then over the years I've lost hearing in my right ear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So tell me what it was like when you first got the technology that connected your hearing aid to your phone?

DELUCA: It was amazing. I mean, it's night and day. To be able to answer the phone without taking the hearing aid out and putting the phone up to your ear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So were you counted down for the Apple watch?

DELUCA: I didn't realize when I heard about the Apple watch everything you were going to be able to do on it. Once I saw what I was able to do with the hearing aids is another great feature.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So there are four settings, what are the four different options?

DELUCA: There's an all-around setting, I can adjust the base and the treble in that setting also. There's a restaurant setting. There's a music setting then there's an outdoor where it can - I can actually block out some of the wind noise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the big concerns a lot of people have about the watch is the battery. What happens if the battery on these dies?

DELUCA: The hearing aid still works. The hearing aid batteries are completely separate from the phone and the watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you adjust them, then?

DELUCA: I can still cycle through the programs I just won't be able to fine tune.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you ever feel you have just too much technology? Between the hearing aid and the watch and the phone?

DELUCA: I'm so grateful, like God has blessed me with so many ways of different technology like this because it really has opened up so much. If it means that I'm tied to these gadgets to improve the way that I'm hearing things, so be it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New this morning, President Obama addressing the U.S. strategy against ISIS at the G-7 meeting in Germany. Just moments ago, the president stressed the importance of training more Iraqi security forces, but he did admit that there is, in his words, still no complete strategy in place to do just that. Take a listen. [11:55:00] PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: One

of the areas we're going to have to improve is the speed at which we're training Iraqi forces. We don't yet have a complete strategy because it requires commitments on the part of the Iraqis as well about how recruitment takes place, how that training takes place. So the details of that are not yet worked out.

BERMAN: Earlier, we should say, the president met with the Iraqi prime minister Haider Al-Abadi on the sidelines of the summit. He said the U.S. will continue to ramp up the training of Iraqi forces as is possible. I want to talk more about this and maybe the surprising statement was just heard from the president with Fareed Zakaria, host of Fareed Zakaria GPS. Thank you so much for being with us right now.

Fareed, I don't know what's more notable - that the U.S. doesn't have a strategy, or a complete strategy to train Iraqi forces to battle ISIS in Iraq or that the president used those words again, "no complete strategy." Because this is something he was roundly criticized for way back in September. We are all these months later and there's still no strategy?

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: I think the problem is that we think of this as a democratic problem. Why can't we train these troops faster? Why can't we get them more arms? Why can't ramp up their readiness? The problem is political. The Iraqi army represents a government that is seen as a Shiite government by the Sunnis.

Remember, the Sunnis are the guys that ISIS draws its recruits from. So if you don't change the composition of the army, if you don't change the - if you don't make concessions to the Sunnis, bring them into the government, then you're building up what is going to be seen by the Sunnis as a Shiite army. So the fact that you're training them and equipping them, all great. But when they go in there, the Sunnis are going to say "we prefer ISIS to this."

BERMAN: Yes. And that's what's been happening for the last year or two.

BOLDUAN: But you all - I mean, but right away I'm sure President Obama even knew himself that if he - whatever - when he was trying to say, he did not say it correctly. By saying "we do not have a complete strategy" he is opening himself up to criticism. Especially when you see in light of the continued gains by ISIS and the president continuing to say that we have temporary setbacks but we will be ultimately successful. How, if you at this point, this far in, don't have a complete strategy?

ZAKARIA: Well, the problem, again, you know, there's a balance between criticizing the Iraqis too much. Remember, Ash Carter, the secretary of defense, when asked why Ramadi fell he said "well, let's face it, the Iraqi army" which vastly outnumbered ISIS - didn't have the fight. Requests so the problem is political. You have an army that's not seen as representative of the whole country, the Sunnis don't want to fight with it. Probably many of them want to fight against it. How you sort

that out is more politics than it is a question of how many arms you get them and how fast you get them.

BERMAN: The president did flat out say there's more capacity to train Iraqi troops than are being taken advantage of by the Iraqis themselves. Fareed, thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate it. It's a subject that will be discussed for days to come.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you.

BERMAN: 2 minutes before the hour right now. A preview of CNN's new original series "The Seventies." It debuts Thursday, June 11, right here on CNN. Here's a preview.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The seventies awakens us and polarized us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 1970s saw the development of terrorism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With bombshell after bombshell after bombshell.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watergate scandal broke wide open today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think more hair, more naked people, more misbehavior.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The world is getting crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cultural revolution just kind of exploded and fascinating chaos emerged?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of what was going on, people came home and they wanted to laugh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One picture take within Archie bunker and me. One, two, three.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a prayed you of discovery for a lot of people. My only defense was it was the '70s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dynamite!

BERMAN: That is the series which debuts Thursday. It's amazing. But before that...

BOLDUAN: In honor of that.

BERMAN: In honor of that, something very special. The CNN quiz show '70s edition. 9:00 p.m. eastern, also 9:00 p.m. pacific. See six CNN anchors test their knowledge of the '70s. I want you to watch. Anderson Cooper hosts. Some very attractive people will be playing.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Exactly. This guy included. Thank you for joining us At This hour.

BERMAN: Legal View with Ansleigh Banfield starts right now.