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CNN NEWSROOM

Terror Suspect Wanted to Behead Activist; Are Activists Helping Track Down Terrorists?; Live Anthrax Shipped to Labs by Mistake; Duggar Family Speaks Out on Molestation Claims; Baltimore Asks Feds for Cops, Prosecutors. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 4, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:02] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, a planned beheading stopped in its track. The target? The outspoken activist behind a Mohammed cartoon contest.

PAMELA GELLER, TARGET OF BEHEADING PLOT: They mean to kill everyone who doesn't do their bidding and abide by their law voluntarily.

COSTELLO: This morning new details about the suspect and the weapons he ordered off Amazon.

Also --

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": We're not going to give up on Josh.

COSTELLO: The Duggars stand up for their son after admitting he improperly touched young girls. Why didn't they go to the cops earlier?

And a high-profile endorsement. The wife of the "American sniper" joins me live. Why Taya Kyle is standing by the man she calls one of the greatest leaders Texas has ever seen, Rick Perry.

Let's talk. Live in CNN NEWSROOM."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

A brutal terrorism plot halted before it could be carried out. New details about that 26-year-old terror suspect shot dead by Boston Police. We now know Usaamah Rahim who police say was radicalized by ISIS wanted to behead controversial conservative commentator Pamela Geller.

Rahim, who was under constant surveillance, changed his plans just hours before he was killed. His new target, "the boys in blue," a reference to law enforcement. Now, this man, 25-year-old David Wright, who police say is an associate, is facing terrorism-related charges.

Let's bring in CNN national correspondent Deborah Feyerick. She is following this. She has more.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, what we do know now is that Usaamah Rahim bought three knives last week from Amazon.com. One of those knives is intercepted by the FBI. The box was actually x-rayed and then delivered while under video surveillance to Rahim. Now Usaamah Rahim over the weekend met with two associates who he had been speaking with and texting for the last couple of days, talking about this plan to behead an individual.

The individual we are now learning is allegedly Pamela Geller. Her organization has been labeled a hate group. She is a well-known Muslim basher who earlier today defended her right to free speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GELLER: We see Jesus blasphemed mercilessly on "South Park." We see the cross immersed in a jar of urine. We see Mother Mary, you know, immersed in dung. Nobody says anything about that.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: That's not true.

GELLER: Yes.

CUOMO: Those things get criticized as well.

GELLER: Nobody gets killed, embassies don't get burned. Villages don't get burned. I am asking you, we all don't like our religion mocked. The Roman Catholics don't. The Christians don't. The Mormons don't. And the book -- the show "The Book of Mormon" is viciously anti-Christian. Nobody is getting killed. Why do we condescend to Muslims? Well, I certainly don't. I expect the same behavior. I expect civilized behavior.

People need to understand the jihadic doctrine and that it is coming for you. And mainstream Muslims should be standing with me shoulder to shoulder in defense of free speech.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: And Pamela Geller came to light in early May when a cartoon contest she hosted mocking the Prophet Mohammed was attacked or attempted to be attacked by another ISIS sympathizer.

We do know, Carol, that Rahim at 5:00 Tuesday morning actually contacted this man, David Wright, told him that he was changing his plans. He was no longer going to travel outside Massachusetts to behead the victim. In fact, he was going after police officers because they were much easier targets. That's when the JTF moved in. They confronted, wanting really to talk to Rahim. He pulled out a knife. And then when officers said drop your weapon, Rahim allegedly responded, you drop yours first. So this was something that he was ready to act and that's why the JTF moved in.

COSTELLO: Gotcha. So is there a third person involved?

FEYERICK: Well, there is a third person involved and they're sort of running that down. Right now what they're doing is they're looking to see who else he was speaking to and to what extent they also may have been radicalized online. But the one man who has so far been charged with obstructing justice because he told Rahim, look, if you're going to do this attack, make sure you wipe your cell phone, make sure you wipe your computer, get rid of all data, get rid of your fingerprints.

So that's what he has been charged with but not necessarily taking part in the plot, although he did support and encourage the plot.

COSTELLO: Deborah Feyerick, many thanks to you.

Pamela Geller, the initial target this foiled attack isn't the only one making headlines for a controversial cartoon contest. Remember John Rietheimer, he recently organized a Prophet Mohammed cartoon near a Phoenix mosque? Well, the former Marine claimed the event was a freedom speech rally. But critics say he's anti-Islam and slammed him for wearing a T-shirt during this whole thing that said "F Islam." Now Rietheimer says his safety is in jeopardy and that he is now facing backlash from that event.

The big question, are these activists making the job of police officers more dangerous or are they actually helping track down terrorists?

[10:05:01] Let's bring in criminal profiler Pat Brown.

Hi, Pat.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Hi. Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: So what do you think about that? So these two people, they hold this cartoon contest. Are they bringing people out of the woodwork and making police -- making the police's job more difficult or the opposite?

BROWN: Well, you know, I personally don't quite approve of this kind of thing because I don't think it's ever really nice to make fun of people's religion. And I think it's just kind of fanning huge flames. I don't see the point in it, especially when you have radicals out there who are going to take it not so nicely. But on the other hand, you know, if they're going to do it, law enforcement is jumping on it. So what they've done with the Boston case is fabulous. They did incredible police work.

COSTELLO: They certainly did. OK. So let's focus on this suspect right now, Mr. Rahim, went to Brookline High School, right, nice high school in a nice, rich neighborhood in the Boston area. He went to -- I guess in his freshman year in high school, he attended high school in Saudi Arabia, but then he came back and attended Brookline High School. He didn't seem radicalized to his friends.

We hear the same story about these terrorism suspects over and over again. Is there a common theme? Why does no one notice?

BROWN: Well, you know, it's interesting. It's kind of like with mass murder. A lot of people don't recognize disaffected youth. That they're not happy with society. That they're against authority and they want to do something to be important, and that's often why we see mass murder. Now what we're having is a new kind of thing going on with terrorism issues because now we can use the Internet, as they say, to radicalize.

I call it gathering soldiers for an army. In other words, these guys aren't going to join the American army because that's not going to soothe them. But hey, they can join another army and they can be -- they can do something for some important organization and feel good about it. So I think we're going to see more of this in the future. It's very easy to -- you know, to reach out across the entire United States.

And so you have a huge population that you can maybe get some new soldiers from. And let's look at the type of attacks they can commit. Unlike 9/11, it isn't a lot of work to get a knife and a net. That's what you need. A knife and a net. And you got a terrorist attack. So I think we're going to see this increase. And I think that luckily we have law enforcement on this. And they got the right idea that they've really got to do a lot of surveillance and tracking of what's going on, on the Internet because that's the conduit.

COSTELLO: Isn't it up to the families, though, to notice their sons or daughters might be becoming radicalized or is it too hard to determine whether that's true or not?

BROWN: I don't think it's that hard to determine. But I think a lot of families simply don't pay attention. That is why their kids are going that way in the first place. I mean, if you have a really strong, stable family, parents really involved with their children, you're not going to see them become mass murderers and terrorists. However, when you have that disconnect, that's why they are off on their own.

That's why they can spend hours, perhaps, you know, hiding away and coming up with these ideas. Making -- you know, I mean, how many times have we had a mass murderer caught and then we find he has a cache of guns in the house with his mother. You know, where is mom? But I -- you know, that's why they are targeting this kind of person because they know they are looking for something, they're looking for importance, and this is one way they can find it.

COSTELLO: So let's focus a little bit on Mr. Wright. He's supposedly an accomplice but he wasn't directly involved in -- you know, killing police officers or beheading anyone but he did help Mr. Rahim. Now we don't quite know the relationship between the two. But David Wright seems an unlikely suspect.

BROWN: And why is that?

COSTELLO: Well, I don't know. He just --

BROWN: Because his lawyer says he's a nice guy? Because the family says he's a nice guy? I mean, this is what we always hear. You know, we always hear that oh, he wouldn't do this kind of thing. And yet we have evidence that actually this is what is happening. So I think a lot of times people just -- they look the other way. They misinterpret what they're seeing in front of them. And also, you know, anybody who is committing criminal behavior isn't criminal 24 hours a day.

I mean, there are moments in his life when he's traveling, he goes to the movies, he comes home and says, hi, mom. That doesn't make him a good guy. It just means that he can do good things part of the day. And I think there's just a lot of putting one's head in the sand or refusing to acknowledge that they have a troubled person in their family.

COSTELLO: Pat Brown, thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

BROWN: Thanks.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, live anthrax shipped to 17 states, three countries and D.C. Not by an enemy but the Pentagon?

Plus the Duggars open up about the bombshell molestation scandal rocking the family. Why they say they felt like failures.

[10:09:45]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The nation's anthrax scare multiplies. The Pentagon now says 51 labs across 17 states may have received live shipments of anthrax. And officials fear that number will rise.

Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon following the latest development for us.

Good morning, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. 51 left, 17 states suspected of potentially getting live anthrax. And why do we say this? Because the Pentagon revealed yesterday at a press conference it has been testing several batches. Four of 400. That's how many have to be tested. Four have already turned up to be positive. They weren't supposed to be active anthrax. And that's what got shipped out to these 51 labs.

The Pentagon yesterday at this press briefing for reporters a week later finally showing how they pack up the anthrax and ship it, trying to demonstrate that it's in a container, that it's all sealed, and this poses no public health hazard.

But look, this is going to grow. As they go through those 400 batches, they expect, they have every reason to expect they are likely to find more batches of live anthrax. Again, supposed to be dead pathogen that they shipped out to these labs.

[10:15:11] So where do we stand? Because it's all sealed up, the Pentagon says, they say, there's no risk to public health. But there is concern about the potentially hundreds or thousands of workers in those labs. So they are going to be looking at all of that. And it is expected to get even larger, more labs, more states, because those 396 batches still have to be tested -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Barbara Starr reporting live from the Pentagon this morning. Thank you.

Checking some other top stories for you at 15 minutes past. At least 76 people have died in a gas station explosion in the capital of Ghana. The victims were reportedly there trying to seek shelter after days of torrential rain and flooding. Ghana's president visited the charred site today. He says he's at a loss for words.

Cranes hovering over that capsized ship in China as cruise prepare to try to upright it. Rescuers cutting into the hull of the ship finding no signs of life. All 77 bodies have been recovered, more than 360 people are still missing. Rescuers say they'll continue searching until tonight. The ship went down Monday after being hit by a cyclone.

New video just in to CNN. This is in Ramadi, Iraq where ISIS has shut off most of the gates to the dam. You can see people roaming through the river. And the river bed is already exposed in some places. The move is cruel and tactical cutting off water supplies to pro- government towns downstream as well as making it easier for fighters to attack forces loyal to Baghdad.

The Duggars are breaking their silence. The reality TV stars appeared last night in primetime on FOX News, explained their actions after a then 15-year-old Josh Duggar confessed to inappropriately touching his sisters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUGGAR: This was not rape or anything like that. This was like touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple of incidents where he touched somebody over their clothes. But it was like a few seconds. And then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened. And it was after that third time he came to us is where we really felt like, you know what, we have done everything we can as parents to handle this in house, we need to get help.

I think as parents you feel like a failure when one of your kid does something wrong. You feel like if I would have done more training or maybe something else that this wouldn't have happened. But the truth is that kids will make their own choices. And they will make their own decisions even though you've taught them what's right and wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: The family is taking an aggressive stance after lying low in the weeks after the revelation surfaced, hiring a public relations firm with ties to a family supporter Mike Huckabee. And on Friday night Jessa Seawald and Jill Dillard will have their own special to discuss what's happened.

So let's talk about this with senior media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES" Brian Stelter.

Welcome, Brian.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

COSTELLO: So the Duggars hired a PR firm that Mike Huckabee uses. What do you know about that?

STELTER: Yes. The interview happened to be set up by the same company that represents Huckabee. Actually one of Huckabee's most senior advisers, Chad Gallagher, also is helping the Duggars get through this. The family needs a lot of counsel here. They've had to figure out how to handle what is really a crisis that's come up in the past two weeks. And you mentioned, they've silent up until now. So to hear from them with Megyn Kelly last night, trying to say what happened and what didn't happen.

To some people it sounded like they were trying to downplay the seriousness of these molestation allegations. On the other hand it was important to hear their perspective and hear how they've handled the situation.

COSTELLO: What do you think TLC will think?

(LAUGHTER)

STELTER: They are very carefully saying nothing. They are avoiding the situation. They say they are butting out while the family deals with the crisis.

I don't think this interview makes it any easier to bring "19 Kids and Counting" back. Because I this is the kind of interview -- and this is not a knock on Megyn Kelly, but it's the kind of interview that raises more questions than answers.

COSTELLO: Why?

STELTER: People want to know even more now about what happened. People are even more confused, I think, in some cases. When you hear the family saying that in some cases this was just touching over the clothes, in some cases touching under the clothes. First of all, it's very uncomfortable to hear about that. But second, it makes you wonder, how did they know for sure? What did they do to address this?

Most of what we heard was from the perspective of Josh, not from the victims, not from the daughters. We will hear from them later in the week. But what we did hear from them last night, there was a short clip that I think we can play from Jessa and Jill. They directed their attention toward the release of the juvenile records. So here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL DILLARD, SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: People don't have a right to do this. We're victims. They can't do this to us.

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: And yet they did.

DILLARD: And they did.

JESSA SEAWALD, SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: It's a system that was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life and the ones that are affected by those choices, it's just -- it's greatly failed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:20:08] STELTER: So they're focusing on this issue of the release of the records. That's what the family wants the focus to be. I think we'll hear more about that when more of this interview is released on Friday.

COSTELLO: I understand where they're coming from. I certainly wouldn't want that information made public either, especially if I was -- I was either of those two young women. Right?

STELTER: Yes.

COSTELLO: Right?

STELTER: Yes. They're making it about improper release of records as opposed to improper touching.

COSTELLO: Right. But still they're reality TV shows, and the fact is their parents -- they're politically involved and they make statements about other people that aren't so forgiving. And I have a robocall that Mrs. Duggar made back in August, so let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: I don't believe the citizens would want males with past child predator convictions that claimed they are female to have a legal right to enter private areas reserved for women and girls. I doubt that Fayetteville parents would stand for a law that would endanger their daughters or allow them to be traumatized by a man joining them in their private space.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Now there's probably more than one person out there who says that's pretty hypocritical in light of what we know now. And doesn't TLC have to take that into account?

STELTER: Yes. Frankly they didn't have a very good answer to the questions about hypocrisy last night. That was one of the weaker parts of the interview, I thought. I mentioned that often this interview makes it any easier for TLC to bring the show back. That's because all this attention is negative attention for the family. And even though some of their fans may rally around them, the reputation of the family is clearly tarnished by this series of stories.

Now it is possible. Maybe there'll be a spinoff. I think that's one possible outcome of this entire controversy. Maybe TLC will make a new reality show just about some of the kids and them starting their own families but not about this large family and certainly not about Josh Duggar.

COSTELLO: Brian Stelter, thanks for your insight as always. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, drug looted from stores fueling skyrocketing crime in Baltimore. Cops say it's enough to keep the city high for an entire year.

Plus the wife of the "American Sniper" makes her pick for president. Why she's backing a former Texas governor. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:26:30] COSTELLO: Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

The city of Baltimore is pleading for help, asking the federal government to step in as a wave of violence and drug offenses makes their way across the city. Law enforcement officials say they know the root of the problem, the fallout from the death of Freddie Gray, the man who died of a spinal injury while in police custody.

Suzanne Malveaux live in Baltimore to tell us more. Good morning.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Carol. You know, I've been in Baltimore since the days following Freddie Gray's death, and a lot of people who I talked to here say they believe that the onus is on them to take care of their own community. They're helping out but quite frankly, Carol, I mean, these problems are monumental here.

Now the Baltimore police commissioner Anthony Batts saying that he is under fire and that the crime rate is just out of control. He's under fire from those who feel -- in his own department that they don't -- he doesn't have their back, also from the community that feels under siege. Batts is now saying that there is a flood of drugs in Baltimore that is creating this crime wave.

Twenty-seven pharmacies were looted in the riot after the death of Freddie Gray. And that there is now a turf war that is taking place. That there are gangs that are trying to compete over customers and that is why you have so many people who are being shot and killed in this city. Listen to how he explains it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE: There's enough narcotics on the streets of Baltimore to keep it intoxicated for a year. Criminals are selling those stolen drugs. There are turf wars happening, which are leading to violence and shootings in our city.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Batts says it is now all hands on deck. He is also asking for federal help, federal agencies, federal prosecutors to get involved in this because the problem has become so big. And Carol, you've heard the statistics before. It is worth repeating.

Just last month, the month of May, 43 homicides. That is the deadliest month since 1972, more than 40 years. 119 homicides so far this year in this city.

And again, Carol, talking to people who live here they say they're going to take to the streets, they're going to protest. But they also need some help outside of the city because things have gotten so out of control -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Suzanne Malveaux reporting live from Baltimore this morning.

With me now, Ed Norris, the former police commissioner in Baltimore, a 20-year veteran of the New York City Police Department and now host of "The Norris and Davis Radio Show" in Baltimore.

Welcome, sir.

ED NORRIS, FORMER BALTIMORE POLICE COMMISSIONER: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Good morning. Is Commissioner Batts right? Are stolen drugs fueling a crime wave in Baltimore?

NORRIS: It's part of it. And one thing I'd like to bring up is this is the deadliest since '72. The population of Baltimore in '72 was about a million people, now there's over 600,000. It's even worse than that time. But the drugs that had been stolen certainly part of it. And also the officers now, a lot of word that I'm getting from police officers is that they're really not being assertive. They are answering the 9/11 calls as they're supposed to but they are very, very -- not timid but reticent given what happened with the indictments after the Freddie Gray case.

COSTELLO: So in light of that, Commissioner Batts made a formal request for more federal help to fight crime. Is that a necessary move? A good move? A bad move?

NORRIS: It should be unnecessary. This is a fairly big police department per capita. It's a well trained police department. They should be able to handle this. The problem is if people aren't stopping people in the street and taking guns away from people that are willing to carry them illegally and shoot other people, if they carry them freely, you're going to have a tremendous spike in crime.

[10:30:04] It's exactly what you're seeing now. I think part of it is fueled by the stolen drugs because now you've got guys just opening up markets on their own and there is competition. But the fact is, if the police aren't --