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NSA Surveillance Powers Temporarily Expire; Obamas Visit Bidens After Son's Death; Interview with U.S. Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii; Gun Violence Up In Major U.S. Cities. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired June 1, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:32:22] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the NSA's controversial phone data collection dead this morning after the Senate could not extend three top provisions of the Patriot Act. But the Senate will attempt to revive that program by taking up the House version, dubbed the Freedom Act later this week.

That would put the provision back in place but we are forms. The president warning of gaps without the Patriot Act in place.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We lost a really good public servant, family man and friend this weekend. Beau Biden, the former Delaware attorney general and, of course, son of Vice President Joe Biden passed at just 46. President Obama and the first lady visiting the Bidens official residence Sunday to offer their condolences along with so many.

Beau Biden, an Iraq war vet, just a real star. He left a path of great potential in politics to battle health problems and eventually lost his fight with brain cancer.

CAMEROTA: Well, ten people injured after a commercial air- conditioning unit plunged 30 stories in Manhattan, officials say the heavy AC unit was being transferred from a crane into a room Sunday morning when a rigging strap broke. The victims were hit by falling debris. They suffer non-life-threatening injuries which is incredible.

CUOMO: "San Andreas" crashes the competition at the weekend box office. The West Coast earthquake disaster flick raked in more than $53 million. The film starring me, with an extended cameo by Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, easily beat out "Pitch Perfect 2" in second place, with just under $15 million. I will donate all proceeds of the film to charity.

CAMEROTA: Have agents been ringing the phone off the hook after your, albeit, brief cameo?

CUOMO: The scene as you haven't seen it the rock is about to fall off the clip, it says the news will save you, my brother the news will save you.

CAMEROTA: And that's you?

CUOMO: It doesn't exist. But that's what I thought it was. Really I'm reading a news read.

CAMEROTA: Oh, I see.

CUOMO: I'm kind of more in the background. It's really my voice. People say totally --

CAMEROTA: They got it was you?

CUOMO: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Symbolically you, even though are you not seen?

CUOMO: It was an amazing delivery there. I was in the rest of the movie, I haven't seen it. I'm not about personal glory. I say what is the movie about? After that?

CAMEROTA: They blanked out. They passed out from excitement.

Wow, that's great. Well, congratulations on that big --

CUOMO: I don't believe that it's a full-throated enjoyment of my success.

CAMEROTA: I haven't seen it yes. I will look forward to doing that.

CUOMO: I'm sure I will.

CAMEROTA: All right. Meanwhile, back to our top story -- is the Patriot Act a necessary tool in the terror fight or just an excuse to collect America's phone data for no good reason?

[06:35:05] We will ask a member of Congress if the now expired predictions need to be renewed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: So key provisions of the Patriot Act just expired.

Now, another measure, the USA Freedom Act, which echoes many of the Patriot provisions, except for the now infamous metadata collection, that could pass this week, could not. A good time to be doing this? A right compromise?

Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard is here. She has strong opinions.

So, right now, we don't have those protections in place. The opponents of the plan, ah, so what? They still have plenty of tools. This is fine. It was a big overreach on privacy. It needed to be fixed. We'll be fine. These are good changes.

Do you agree?

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D), HAWAII: There is no question the Patriot Act does need to be fixed. The issue right now with the Patriot Act is that it actually undermines our national security. It actually makes the American people less safe, as well as undermining our civil liberties.

CUOMO: How does it make us less safe?

[06:40:00] GABBARD: When you look at the billions of dollars that are being poured into this program, collecting information data in many different ways, not only phone call information, on every single Americans, by this program. It's a distraction. It's not only a distraction by the time and attention of our intelligence agencies and personnel but the resources.

When you look at recently at the shooting, unfortunate shooting in Garland, Texas, for example, when you look at the Boston bomber situation, you have people who were here at home, you have thousands of jihadis now with this growth of ISIS all over the country, and you have law enforcement saying -- look, we don't have the time, the personnel and resources to track these people. And yet, you have them dedicating resources to tracking and monitoring, collecting information on every single American across the country.

CUOMO: But you know what their argument is. The argument in favor of using this is we don't know who when we decide to start looking at Chris Cuomo, we didn't know who Chris Cuomo was before he did this. So, we need to know, did he call Tulsi, did he call this one, we need all the data because of the unknown.

GABBARD: I disagree with that, that idea or that approach because their collection on someone who has probable cause, who they are suspecting who is a jihadist or is a potential threat to the American people, it has nothing to do with Aunt Ida in Illinois or someone else. And, really, it should be done in a far more focused way that it's actually affective. You don't have to go through this huge trove of information that they are gathering and collecting and storing on people that has absolutely no relevant to a terrorist threat or attack.

CUOMO: What does it mean to you that people in the intelligence community say they need it, say they want it, say the threat is getting further ahead of them than any time since 9/11, and we are basically putting one hand behind their back?

GABBARD: I think we've got to look at what's effective. And I think that's really what needs to take place here is look at the Patriot Act as a whole. Look at all these different provisions and really do a deep cost benefit analysis to see what has actually been effective in preventing terrorist attacks and making sure that the American people are safe.

With this specific provision that's expired as of last night midnight, there was a government appointed panel last year that looked at it, look at all the secret documents, look at all of the background and basically, they came out with a decision that says this has been ineffective. It's a program that's illegal and it's a program that should be ended.

So, we should focus our resources on the affected provisions. Look at this analysis that hasn't really been done before. This Patriot Act was pushed through in a very rushed way without any real critical look at actually what's been effective since then.

CUOMO: You believe that hasn't been fixed in the Freedom Act, either. You voted against it.

GABBARD: It has not been fixed in the Freedom Act. The Freedom Act does improve in some provisions. It's definitely improvement over the status quo. But it doesn't do what people say it does. It does not, in fact, end bulk collection and it does strengthen these secret FISA courts to the place where they're actually -- we have the opportunity for advocates for civil liberties that can balance out what the intelligence community is asking for.

CUOMO: So, now, let's go to the backdrop of why we're doing this, it's ongoing war against terror. The hot theater right now is obviously the battle against ISIS, how do you feel about the strategies there and these whispers coming from above maybe we need the biggest warriors in the world back on the field, U.S. fighting men and women?

GABBARD: We've got to recognize that this threat of ISIS is a global threat. It's not it doesn't only exist in Iraq, but we are seeing it in other regions, not only in the Middle East, we are seeing it growing around the world. The approach that we take has to be tailor made to the specific place where these battles are occurring.

When you look in Iraq, very specifically, we got to recognize that we already have ground troops there, the Kurds, who have been fighting courageous and very effectively against ISIS. And we have the Sunni tribes who are looking for this motivation to fight against ISIS. But right now, they're stuck between a rock and hard place between this Shia-led government that has been oppressing and persecuting them ever since Maliki and now continuing. And you have ISIS there who is really saying, hey, look, we can be your fighting force against this Shia government that's been oppressing you.

So, the Sunni tribesmen, I met with one of the leaders in Washington a couple of weeks ago who are saying, look, give us arms, give us weapons, we want to fight against ISIS. The Kurds are still not getting the weapons we need.

CUOMO: Do you think we can -- do you think the United States can go around the Iraqi government to arm the Peshmerga and the Sunnis?

GABBARD: I think the United States should.

CUOMO: Go around them?

GABBARD: They absolutely should go around the central government in Baghdad, which has proven to be ineffective and inept in providing the tools necessary to the Kurds and to the Sunni tribes and actually empowering them. And that's where I think the direction we need to go towards is empowering.

[06:45:01] CUOMO: Then you wind up alienating the people in the government there who is your basis of leverage of figuring out what happens?

GABBARD: I disagree. I think the direction we need to go toward, rather than having a central government if Baghdad that has proven to be deepening the sectarian divide, between the Kurds, the Shias and the Sunnis, we should look at semi autonomous or autonomous three-state solution that empowers each of these different groups to be responsible for their own territory, their own security and their own governance.

And I think that can put us in a place where we take away the oxygen from groups like ISIS that allowed them to have a strong hold with the current status quo that exists.

CUOMO: You were outlining a growing idea about how to deal with the sectarian realities inside Iraq. It's a bigger conversation. We should continue to have it. You are always welcome here.

GABBARD: Thanks.

CUOMO: To have it.

I know it's important that you also mentioned Beau Biden. You know him since 2008. He was one of your brothers in arms there as a member of the armed services. Tough loss.

GABBARD: Tough loss, of course, for his family, for Delaware, but for our entire country. He is what I see as a great example of a servant leader, someone who really dedicated his life selflessly and humbly into the service of our country. I feel privileged to have known him and to have been able to serve alongside him.

CUOMO: Very well said. Congresswoman, thank you very much.

GABBARD: Thanks, Chris. Good to see you.

CUOMO: Congratulation on your own joy. You got married since the last time.

GABBARD: Yes, very happy. Thank you.

CUOMO: Oh, absolutely.

And a provocative idea that the congresswoman gave us there. You're going to start hearing more about it. Is the central government the right way to go in Iraq? Do we have to recognize the sectarian divisions there in a different way? What do you think?

Tweet us, use #NewDay, or post your comment on Facebook.com/NewDay.

Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris.

We also want to talk about this story -- gun violence is on the rise in some major cities. The increase reversing a 20-year trend of violence going down. Our experts share the reason for the rise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:51:17] CAMEROTA: Gun violence is on the rise in many cities around the country, after nearly two decades of declining crime rates. According to "The Washington Post", this comes at the same time the police officers have killed more people this year than in the past.

So what's behind these disturbing trends?

Let's bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck, and CNN commentator and host of "HuffPost Live", Marc Lamont Hill.

Gentlemen, thanks so much.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN COMMENTATOR: Good to see you.

CAMEROTA: Great to see both of you.

Let's start with the gun violence and let's look at some stats. Let me put this up on the screen to show everyone in major cities around the country. Baltimore, gun violence up more than 60 percent. Los Angeles, up 25 percent. Milwaukee, homicides up 180 percent over last year. New York, homicides up 13 percent. St. Louis shootings up 39 percent.

Harry, what's going on with violent crime across the country?

HOUCK: Well, let's look at the criminals, themselves, all right? Let's not point at the police because crime has gone up. The criminals are out there committing the crimes, all right?

So, are the police officers -- when you have police officers in an environment like we have today where I believe there is a progressive war on the police, police officers are more afraid of going to court for something that they are being arrested for something they did than being killed in the line of duty, then we have a big problem out there.

I believe this problem has been created by this rhetoric, since the Obama administration first started on this war on the police.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Go ahead.

CUOMO: Because I just want to make sure that we get the first point. Do you believe there is a connection between the statistics that Alisyn laid out there and police pulling back? Are we talking cause and effect?

HOUCK: Like I said before, I have spoken to police officers out there on the streets. I talked to them. They feel that they're in a catch-22 situation. They are afraid at sometimes to go out and be proactive because of what has happened. All right?

This is an environment created by them, not the police officers, but by those who are spewing all this rhetoric against police officers out there. Not only that, we have got now 54 police officers killed in the line of duty in 2014. We are already at that number now when it's 2015, six months in the air already gone.

CAMEROTA: So, they feel more under attack and hamstrung by new regulation?

HOUCK: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: OK, Marc, how do you see these numbers?

HILL: One, you can never look at numbers in a blip. You have to go over a long period of time. For example, last year was a low. So, yes, we are up with homicides. We're up with even police shootings as you mentioned, a very high number. But compared to the ten-year mark, we are lower than we have ever been.

CAMEROTA: Well, no, no, for 20 years, the crime rate has been going down for 20 years here.

HILL: I'm just talking about the police shooting piece. Just to be clear, it's not people suddenly going after cops, those are lower than they have been over the ten-year average. Even right now.

With regard to crime, I think there are a lot of factors, we can never bring one factor in as the exclusive factor. There is no data to support what Harry said. Now, anecdotally, you may talk to officers that say, they're scared to do their job, perhaps that's true. Even if I conceded that point, which I don't, that doesn't necessarily mean police are suddenly doing their job so poorly, people are killing each other.

HOUCK: No, no, I wouldn't go that far either.

See, that's the criminals, themselves, who feels they are empowered now because they're hearing all this rhetoric that's gone on about the police officers might be holding back, all right? All this anti-police stuff that's going on. So, now, what that does is empower the bad guy like we have here.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Actually, we didn't stop it. We changed it. We changed it.

It was changed for the good. But the fact is that (INAUDIBLE) says, listen, I can carry a gun. It's a lot easier to carry a gun.

CAMEROTA: Marc?

HILL: I understand your point. My point is that that hypothetical could, in fact, but true. But there's no reason to believe that it's true.

[06:55:00] I don't think the bad guy is getting together say, hey the cops are laying low, let's --

CAMEROTA: How do you explain the rise in crime?

HILL: Jobs. The weather.

CAMEROTA: The economy has improved.

HILL: The economy has improved but for --

CUOMO: But different methods of data collection.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Just one point. In urban areas in particular, unemployment rate is very high, there is a really interesting study at Tuft University that said even weather patterns can determine when crimes go up. When it's not raining, violence goes up.

CUOMO: You had this randomness of selection of data. We have I actually think it's a good thing if we can't connect a spike in crime to policing tactics, because that would be really troubling on a lot of levels.

When you look at it more specifically, though, we have the numbers for Baltimore we should put up. Now, this is a situation where you are looking at something more in the micro. Baltimore does seem to be going in a direction that is statistically abnormal.

HILL: That's an interesting case.

CUOMO: It is. It's so hot there right now on so many different levels that it does raise a suggestion of cause and effect about what's going on there with this current case.

HILL: Absolutely.

CUOMO: I don't see that from criminologists. You know, I have been watching these numbers for a while now. They don't say, don't connect it to the policing. They go Marc's way. And that's a good thing, we don't want to blame police for a spike in crime.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but --

CUOMO: But Baltimore, I think you have a problem there that is showing a community that's felt under siege and now there is a lawlessness there.

CAMEROTA: And, Marc, isn't possible that Harry right? I too have heard this from police officers. Harry is not alone. That they feel hamstrung, nervous to act in a way. It has had a chilling effect. All of the attention on police excessive force.

Do you reject that outright?

HILL: I don't reject it police may be under scrutiny. They feel like their jobs might be limited by these huge realities. I think that might be a good thing, if we look at the excessive force.

CUOMO: They also feel people aren't listening to them anymore, and that resistance of arrests, which we know statistically, is way up, they see as a cultural phenomenon that everybody questions everything a cop asks them to do now. Everybody resists arrest subtly at least, and that's the problem --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: The woman we saw on television, the pregnant woman --

CUOMO: In Barstow, California.

HILL: Yes, they consider that resisting arrest, right? So --

HOUCK: That was resisting arrest.

HILL: No, so my point is everything that's called resisting arrest to me isn't as neat as people are running from the cop, people avoiding arrest. Sometimes, it's people legitimately challenging law enforcement authority. I don't think that's a bad thing.

CAMEROTA: Last word, Harry.

HOUCK: You can't do that, you can't challenge law enforcement in that way because you're going to wind up going on the ground and getting handcuffed.

HILL: You cannot do that.

HOUCK: First of all, the law says you must submit to police officers when they place you under arrest.

CUOMO: That's one finesse point here.

HOUCK: That is a big problem.

CUOMO: If you were walking outside, the three of us, who would want to give us a hard time? If police do decide to give us a hard time --

CAMEROTA: Why not the four of us?

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I'm trying to be realistic.

There is a chance they wouldn't be like us. It was like impossible to not like you.

So, they come up. If I say, you know what, not today, I have to get my makeup taken off -- they're going to put me on the ground. Bad things are going to happen as soon as I start to resist.

So, I think the idea of saying a little resistance can be a good thing. I don't agree with that.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: I say what police are calling it. To them saying I don't have to show you my ID was resistant.

CUOMO: But it is.

HILL: But it's legal.

HOUCK: It's definitely legal.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: It's the situation.

HILL: A lot of situations, I'd be the one on the ground, they're going, Harry, just go get your make up --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: All right. We'll talk about it tomorrow. We have to go.

CUOMO: I would like to test the proposition, by the way. I like to see what happens --

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: You got to walk out of the building right after this and see what happens.

Thanks so much, guys.

CUOMO: All right. One story we will continue following. But there is a lot of news, so let's get it to.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We shouldn't surrender the tools that help keep us safe.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president continues to conduct an illegal program.

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: The Patriot Act ought to be reauthorized as is.

CUOMO: Secretary of State John Kerry is in a hospital in Geneva.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pulling heavily on his right-hand side. He has fractured his right femur.

CUOMO: He will miss have critical nuclear negotiations with Iran.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Iraqi troops hitting an ISIS stronghold hard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have been in combat with ISIS for months. And now, the enemy is just across the river.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think thousands and thousands of American forces on the ground is the probably the right move right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to your NEW DAY. Michaela is off.

We do have some breaking news this morning. Your phone records have no longer fair game for the NSA. This is one of key three provisions of the Patriot Act that is lapsing at least for now after a late night session in the Senate could not keep that law alive.

CUOMO: But an idea that is still alive is the USA Freedom Act. It has already passed the House. It is getting the Senate's attention. We hope started today at noon. Its supporters say it is the right mix of security and privacy.

Let's begin our coverage. We have CNN's Athena Jones on Capitol Hill.

We do believe think they'll get after it today, right? At least that's a beginning point?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's the beginning of our process. Good morning, Chris.

You know, last night on the Senate floor on that rare Sunday session, there was drama, there was passion. There were even some raised voices.

But now, as you mentioned, Senate leaders are trying to make sure that the lapse in this law, a law that many see as vital to fighting terrorism is only a few days long or as short as possible.