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Apocalyptic Battle for Key Oil Refinery; CNN on Patrol with Iraq's Golden Division; Iraq's Golden Division; Push for Three-State Solution in Iraq; Iraqi Government Counts on Support; Another Mohammed Cartoon Contest; Bobby Jindal's 2016 Plans; Problem Facing FBI in the U.S.; FBI Asks Police to Help Track Suspects; "Draw Mohammed" Cartoon Contest Planned in Phoenix; More Rain Targets Flood-Ravaged Texas; Live Anthrax Shipped to Nine States and South Korea. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 28, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We start with a critical fight for Iraqi Special Forces as they try to push ISIS out of a key oil refinery. The battle brings back memories of the end of the first Gulf War in 1991 when Iraqi forces, under Saddam Hussein, burned oil fields as they fled Kuwait. A similar ecological disaster could follow an ISIS withdrawal now.

Our Nick Paton Walsh has more on the battle for Baiji.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is just a taste of how apocalyptic it could get at the vital Baiji oil refinery already choking on smoke. Part of this huge complex is still held by ISIS. Shia fighters filmed this Tuesday. The month's long fight here slowed by fears of the ecological chaos ISIS could wreak if they scorch and burn here as they retreat.

Iraqi Special Forces took us to their front line defending the ruins of a house that a coalition air strike pushed ISIS out of. They are from the elite golden division. Their Ramadi colleagues are part of the troops the U.S. said lacked the will to fight.

(on camera): That line of buildings over there is ISIS's closest position. And, yesterday, during a thick sand storm here, they used the cover of it to advance within 20 meters of here. When the sand storm subsided, suddenly a fire fight began.

(voice-over): We don't know why they started shooting this day, what they may have seen. ISIS a few in number here, they say, but willing to die and have a sniper nearby. Or maybe, they more want to show us, and even Washington, they very much do want to fight.

ALAA, CAPTAIN, ICTS GOLDEN DIVISION (translated): It's not logical and wrong, he says, of the American criticism because anywhere, in Ramadi, Mosul or Baiji, anywhere duty calls, we fight. Their gunfire grows and usually it's mortars that ISIS fire back. So we pull out.

WALSH: More ammunition some American is arriving at their base, but the fight will be a slow and (INAUDIBLE), we're told.

MAJ. GEN. JAMAL AL JABOURI, COMMANDER, SALAHEDDIN OPERATIONS: The reason we want to surround them, he says, is because we must clean up the area properly with specialist engineers because it has fuel but also booby traps.

WALSH: (INAUDIBLE) of ISIS, a vital part of Baghdad's new plan for Ramadi but a slow grind, mindful that Iraq needs something to live off if ISIS ever leaves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And Nick is joining us now live on the phone from Baghdad. You're back safely fortunately, Nick. Tell us about the fears of an ecological disaster. If ISIS loses and they start to pull out, are they going to blow up the oil refineries there? That could be a huge disaster.

WALSH (via telephone): That is why it's really hampering that operation, Wolf, for fear that if they go in gun's blazing, and they do have artillery ranked around that oil refinery and they do have, as you saw there, fire power and people they are willing to send in. But if they knew (INAUDIBLE) that Iraqi officials claim is all that ISIS still holds, that ISIS, you know how animalistic (ph) they are, could simply choose to burn and destroy everything left behind them and that could significantly damage the region, frankly. We're talking about the refinery that's an hour's drive away from Mosul that could cause havoc in there, that they're (ph) currently held by ISIS now.

But it's a very lengthy, painful operation, moving into such complex facility of an oil refinery. We're told it's already laden with booby traps (INAUDIBLE.) You saw in those images, Wolf, quite how chaotic it could already get given some deformation that have already happened causing those plumes of black smoke.

And there is, of course, one other fact. The reason I'm talking to you on the phone, Wolf, is the weather. We are hit now here in Baghdad by an enormous stand storm which has made our lives (INAUDIBLE.) And that kind of weather common this time of year is going to make it hard for troops, too. You heard in that package (ph) how close ISIS got under the cover (ph) of weather. That's going to make that key to operations tough as well -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Tell us a little bit about the Iraqi elite gold division, as it's called. These are U.S.-trained special operations' forces that the Iraqis have. Are they largely Iraqi Shia or are they Iraqi Sunni, Iraqi Kurds who are also part of this so-called golden division?

WALSH: Well, they are (INAUDIBLE) is not supposed to matter here. The golden division is supposed to be in the past and the Iraqi army that was trained by the Americans that is sort of void of that notion of increasing Shia (INAUDIBLE) that has happened to lots of the Iraqi army, under Nouri Al Maliki, the former prime minister. The theory is that they are not part of that.

[13:05:01] Now, of course, different units will have different biases, potentially. But the guys we spoke had one clear message which was, clearly to the cameras at some points as well, we are absolutely ready to fight. And they were, I think like many of the people we've spoken to. (INAUDIBLE) and what have been said at the Pentagon about their performance in Ramadi. These aren't the same people who were fighting in Ramadi, but they are from that same elite part of the Iraqi military. And I think they put it down to one man's opinions in Washington.

But a broader (INAUDIBLE) still has to be (INAUDIBLE), Wolf. There clearly was a decision to withdraw from Ramadi at perhaps the highest level (INAQUDIBLE) of dedication in here. From these Iraqi soldiers on the ground, you saw in that report there, what they're prepared to do if their political militia isn't willing to also make the tough calls and send them into areas that may not immediately succeed their own political agendas, then that job is going to be increasingly hard -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Nick Paton Walsh back in Baghdad for us. Thank you very much.

Joining us now from London is Fawaz Gerges. He's chair of the contemporary Middle East studies program at the London School of Economics. And he's also author of the new Middle East: Protest and Revolution in the Arab World. Professor, thanks very much for joining us. I want to get your take on this Iraqi operation. Forget about Baiji for a moment. Anbar Province, Ramadi, is the Iraqi military capable of getting rid of ISIS in Ramadi? Because, certainly over the past year, the Iraqi military has not been capable of getting rid of the ISIS forces in Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq.

FAWAZ GERGES, CHAIR, MIDDLE EAST STUDIES, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, you know, I don't have anything original, Wolf, if I say that the Iraqi security forces suffer from structural problems, problems of leadership, problems of command and control. You have a major sector and rift within the Iraqi institutions. The prime minister has failed, so far, to bridge this particular divide between the Sunnis and Shiites.

The reality on the ground is that what we have seen in Mosul, we have seen in Ramadi. It's not about lacking numbers. It's not about arms. There were plenty of arms, plenty of numbers. Lacking leadership, command and control in a position, Wolf. ISIS has -- is still very resilient, militarily, dynamic. It's agile. It manipulates, exploits the weak links within the Iraqi security forces. It has a social basis support. We do not know whether it's 50 percent Sunni support. It's willing to fight to the end. It has leadership.

So, the situation is extremely complex. And even if the Iraqi security forces take Ramadi today or tomorrow, this is a long fight. Without rebuilding the Iraqi security forces, the Iraqi institutions, I think ISIS will continue to exploit the weak links and continue not only to resist but also to expand as well. BLITZER: As you know, Professor, there have been some calling for,

basically, carving up Iraq into three parts, a Shia state, a Kurdish state, a Sunni state. Yesterday, Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, an Iraq War veteran, was speaking with me. Listen to what she said about Iraq right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D), HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE : We need to make sure that we stop continuing this failed policy of supporting and propping up this central government in Baghdad and this fantasy, really, of a one-unified country of Iraq and support the three-state solution of empowering the Sunni tribes, empowering the Kurds and the Shias. Each of them having three autonomous territories, rather than continuing what we've seen, really has failed for so long.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: As you know, a few years ago, even the vice president, Joe Biden, was recommending basically splitting up Iraq into some three autonomous regions. Is this back on the table now? Is it smart?

GERGES: Well, with all due respect, this is a very bad idea. It's a very disastrous idea. In fact, it's a recipe for perpetual war among the various -- the three various communities. The question -- the first question I would ask, Wolf, how would you draw the borders of these three autonomous regions? You're going to have fights between the Shiites and the Kurds. You're going to have a fight between the Shiites and the Sunnis. You -- instead of having one particular war against ISIS, you're going to have three multiple wars.

The second question, if you want to have three separate autonomous regions, you can bet that ISIS will hijack the Sunni autonomous region. ISIS is the most powerful. ISIS will be able -- would be able to take over. In fact, the question on the table here, and this is the essential question, is not whether to petition Iraq into three states. The question has been on the table since 2005 or so. How do you rebuild Iraqi institutions? How do you rebuild the Iraqi state on more solid, legitimate foundations, on more inclusive national unity foundation? How do you bridge the crisis of trust between the various communities?

[13:10:16] It's easier said than done. This will take a long time. Yes, of course, we're talking about 10 years. That's not the question. But, in fact, if you want to have lasting peace in Iraq, if you want to have -- to hammer the deadly nail in the coffin of ISIS, you need to work in a long-term structural part that is rebuilding state institutions even though it's bloody, it's complex, it's costly. But that's really the most effective means to basically end this particular state of war that has been taken place for the last 30 years. Not just since the American invasions, the Iraq in 2003. The members of Saddam Hussein's reckless wars toward -- against Iran and then again Kuwait, in particular.

BLITZER: Fawaz Gerges, thanks very much for joining us. We'll continue this controversy down the road. Appreciate it very much. GERGES: Thank you.

BLITZER: Coming up, a prophet Mohamed cartoon drawing contest now scheduled tomorrow in Arizona, less than a month after a thwarted attack at a similar event in Texas. What steps will U.S. law enforcement agencies take to prepare?

And later, the Louisiana governor, Bobby Jindal, he's standing by to join us live. We'll talk about is, the patriot act, the 2000 race for the White House, and a lot more. Is he getting ready to jump in himself?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Could your next door neighbor be an ISIS sympathizer? That's the problem facing the FBI here in the United States. As it says, it needs help tracking what they describe as hundreds of terror suspects in the U.S.

[13:15:05] New York and Los Angeles police and other law enforcement agencies have now stepped up their surveillance of ISIS supporters, in part to aid the FBI. This follows the attempted terrorist attack on a Prophet Muhammad cartoon contest in Garland, Texas, outside of Dallas earlier this month. One of the two attackers, Elton Simpson was already under investigation by the FBI, but he managed to elude surveillance as he traveled from his home in Phoenix, Arizona, to Texas before he and the other gunmen were killed in the foiled attack.

Phoenix will be the scene of anti-Muslim rally similar to the one in Texas. An anti-Muslim activist plans to hold a "Draw Muhammad" cartoon contest at the gathering, built as a freedom of speech rally. The president of the Islamic Community Center of Phoenix where the protest will be held says his group will hold Friday prayers as planned, adding quote, "Everybody has the right to be a bigot."

And in Georgia, a guilty plea Wednesday from a man who tried to join the terror group ISIS. Leon Nathan Davis III, he was arrested in October at Atlanta's international airport as he attempted to check in for a flight for Turkey. From there he planned to be smuggled into Syria. Davis is the first American citizen to be arrested in Georgia for trying to join ISIS.

So what is it going to take for the United States to get rid of homegrown ISIS terror threats? Joining us now here in Washington is our law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes. He's a former FBI assistant director.

We just heard how the FBI's asking police, local police, for help in tracking ISIS sympathizers, Tom, with hundreds, maybe even thousands of people in the U.S. being pulled in by ISIS on social media and elsewhere. How can U.S. law enforcement possibly keep track of all of them?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, the problem, Wolf, I ran surveillance operations in Chicago back in the '80s when most of our resources were dedicated to following Mafia members. And I could tell you, I had a squad of 28 ground agents, each with undercover vehicles and assortment of equipment and vehicles, photography equipment, night vision goggles, and eight full-time pilots, and to follow one Mafia member on a full-time basis took the entire squad.

So when you're talking in this country of having hundreds, if not thousands, of ISIS wannabes that need watching because you don't really know what's going on inside their head and at what moment they might break bad is easier said than done.

The idea of the police being able to help, these are the same police departments we're asking to put officers in schools and go to PTA meetings and do community policing. They're not going to have the resources to supplement the FBI to do it, nor will they have the undercover vehicles and equipment and, again, all of the array of technical gear that the FBI brings to bear in these kind of investigations. So, it's easier said than done, and we're trying to defeat an ideology that really, you know, so far shows no sign of being reduced.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the so-called "Draw the Prophet" contest planned for tomorrow outside a Phoenix Islamic Community Center. Do events like this one make law enforcement's job harder, given the publicity it's going to generate and what we recently saw in Garland, Texas?

FUENTES: They do make it harder, but this is America. And you know, you're talking to a cop that stood in front of the American Nazi Party in the '70s and protected their right to assemble when it was totally offensive, especially when they did it in large Jewish communities in northern Illinois. At that time, you had holocaust actual survivors that didn't want to see people marching down the street with flags and swastikas and full nazi regalia, so -- but they were told by the U.S. Supreme Court, this is America, you just have to take it if it's just rhetoric and if they're not inciting direct violence at the time, you have to put up with it. And I think that if you don't have freedom of speech, if you can't exercise it. So I'm not sympathetic with these people drawing these cartoons and riling up the entire world. But on the other hand, I'm not sympathetic with any effort to stifle their freedom of speech.

BLITZER: Tom Fuentes, thanks very much. The allure of ISIS is so strong for some that it apparently caused an Australian mother of two to abandon her children with a babysitter. Friends think she may have been lured to Syria in search of a husband. The mother reportedly told the babysitter she was going to pick up a new car before leaving for good. She later texted her ex-husband, who was in Turkey, that she had left the children and for him to return home to Australia.

Still ahead, the U.S. military behind a dangerous mix-up. Live, yes, live anthrax shipped around the country and abroad via FedEx. How could this have happened? We'll get a live report.

[13:19:51] That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: With more rain in the forecast, authorities in flood-ravaged Texas are urging people to evacuate their homes before something like this happens. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh no!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The stunning video showing the moment the Blanco River came rushing into a home in Wimberley, Texas, this week. One witness likening it to a gigantic washing machine.

Right now, more rivers are threatening to spill out of their banks, cause much more destruction. Already, at least 21 people are known dead in Texas and Oklahoma.

Just a little while ago, President Obama spoke about the disaster during a visit to the National Hurricane Center in Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: There's going to be a lot of rebuilding. And we, as a nation, are going to have to help the same way we do any time that folks are affected by these natural disasters. And so we will stay in close coordination with them to make sure that our response is quick, it'll cut through bureaucracy, and that we're helping them recover.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: To put this disaster to perspective, the "Houston Chronicle" is reporting that the amount of rain that fell in Houston on one night was equivalent to 60 hours worth of water going over Niagara Falls.

More than two dozen people in the United States and abroad are being treated for possible exposure to live anthrax. It comes after the U.S. military accidentally shipped the samples to labs in nine states here in the United States and to South Korea via FedEx. And right now, the Pentagon is scrambling to try to figure out how this could have happened.

Our chief national correspondent, Jim Sciutto, is covering the story for us. So Jim, first of all, what's the timeline for how this was reported?

[13:25:04] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECUIRTY CORRESPONDENT: Remarkably long timeline, Wolf. That's one of the issues here. Because the first shipments went out in March of last year. Over the course of 14 months, you have these moving around to places that they shouldn't have moved around because they were meant to be neutralized samples of anthrax and, in fact, at least some of them have turned out to be live.

And there are still questions now about the most recent timeline as to when people were exposed and when they started treatment. You now have 26 people who are taking prophylactic treatment; four here in the U.S., 22 in South Korea. And it's still an open question as to whether -- when that treatment started. It's our understanding that it was May 27th, that's five days after on May 22nd that it was discovered that at least one of these samples was live. That's a five-day period for a very serious, of course, life-threatening potential disease here, infection here. That's an open question. Were they handling this stuff after the discovery and why that delay before they were treated? It's a real problem, and it's one reason why they're investigating this very closely.

BLITZER: These live anthrax samples, they were sent through FedEx, what was the theory behind that?

SCIUTTO: Well, when -- if they're neutralized samples, they ship them with precautions that would make that safe, but when they're live samples, it's a different story, of course. You can ship live samples, but under a much stricter protocol here. And this is another place where you have an open question; why did these samples get through?

Right now what they're focusing on is the irradiation process. Basically, these samples are radiated to kill them so that they are no longer live, no longer much of a threat. It is believed they were radiated, but the question is, were they radiated well enough? Was there some problem in that process that let the samples get through live?

But still open questions there, for instance, when they were shipped by FedEx, were they on FedEx cargo planes or were they on passenger planes? Because, as you know, oftentimes passenger planes are used to ship not only the U.S. mail, but things like FedEx or UPS packages. These are still open questions, which raise questions about where there other secondary exposures to this that you have to look at over time? This is a real big, complicated story here, and it's clear from the remaining questions in the timeline that the Pentagon is still having trouble answering some of those questions.

BLITZER: Yeah. So people who may have been exposed are taking large doses of Cipro. I remember covering that story a decade ago when there was that huge anthrax scare here in the United States. We wish all of these people, obviously, well. Jim Sciutto, thanks very much for that report.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

BLITZER: Up next, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, he's taking swings at some of his potential GOP rivals, especially Rand Paul, saying he's quote, "unsuited to be Commander in Chief and impossible to imagine a President Paul defeating radical Islam." Governor Jindal, there he is, he's standing by live. We're going to talk about the race for the White House, what's going on, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)