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James Holmes Murder Trial Continues; Fighting ISIS; Texas Floods. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 28, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:05]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's talk Texas. People in Southwest Texas, they are being told to prepare and to get out. Volunteer evacuations are under way in the town of Wharton -- It's about 60 miles from Houston -- because another band of thunderstorms are coming in, and it could lead to more flash flooding, like this in one family's home.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no!

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BALDWIN: Can you imagine? This family was able to get upstairs to the second story here and watched all the waters rush in. This is Wimberley. This is their vacation home, when the floods ripped through Central Texas over the weekend.

But Wharton city officials, they are going door to door asking people on the west side to evacuate immediately. Many homes there are already flooded with up to three feet of water. And this is what's key. This is what they're watching. The Colorado River next to Wharton could crest at any moment. And there are more powerful thunderstorms expected every day through the weekend, enough rain, even if it's just a couple of inches, that could even trigger more dangerous flash floods.

Joining me on the phone is the public information officer for the city of Wharton, Paula Favors.

And, Paula, thank you for hopping on with me. Do you -- first, do you have any idea when this river might crest?

PAULA FAVORS, CITY SECRETARY, WHARTON, TEXAS: Well, we are going by the National Weather Service. And what they're predicting is a crest at 45.5 feet. And they're looking at projecting somewhere Friday into Saturday that that would take place.

BALDWIN: So, Friday into Saturday. Right now, what are you telling folks who live around this area to do? FAVORS: Right now, the mayor has called for the voluntary evacuation.

He called for that as of 5:00 p.m. yesterday. A lot of residents are taking the warning seriously, packing up some of the furniture that they can or their items and securing loved ones, animals, and moving to shelters or other family members' homes within the city.

BALDWIN: We mentioned people are already flooded. Now you're anticipating -- you're talking about these voluntary evacuations and people heading to shelters. How full are the shelters already?

FAVORS: At this current time, we have a shelter set up at our junior high school gym. And the American Red Cross said that there was about 19 families this morning who had pre-registered. We did not have any families inside the shelter at that time, but they are at least pre- registering.

We're set up for about 50 with cots. And we're able to house about 50 more. So we're asking our residents to take heed and to go ahead and pre-register and just be prepared.

BALDWIN: Just given everything -- final question -- given everything that part of the state has handled, I'm always just so mindful of EMS crews, emergency responders, the firefighters. How are they holding up?

FAVORS: Absolutely. They're all ready and -- and ready to go and prepared. We have worked with our special needs patients on the west side of town to make sure that they are at a different location. They are secured, so then there aren't any rescues that we have to handle later. But the fire and the EMS are geared up and ready for -- ready for the waters.

BALDWIN: Paula Favors, we will be watching with you and thinking about all of you in the city of Wharton, Texas. Thank you so much for jumping on the phone.

Nearly a dozen of the missing flood victims, they're actually from the Central Texas town of Wimberley. Nine people were all inside this vacation home when the flash floods washed it away. One person escaped.

I have got Jennifer Gray. She attended today's news conference where the grieving families expressed hope and thanks.

Jennifer, tough to hear from them.

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, I mean, it was a tough day. Here we are going on day five. These four families are needing any bit of information. They're holding on hope, even though they are starting to lose hope at the same time. They're trying to keep their spirits high, but they also know the reality of what happened that night.

And it was tough seeing them standing -- standing back there. They didn't speak, but they did stand behind the podium and, you know, your heart goes out to them because it took a lot of strength to do that. It took a lot of heart to do that. And, you know, they're just waiting to hear.

The pieces of new information that we did hear, though, eight missing, four fatalities. Three of those have been identified. One is still pending identification. The latest person to be identified was Michelle Charba. But the rest of her family is still missing, including her husband, her son, and her parents.

Of course, Jonathan McComb is the one we have heard so much about. He was in the home that split in two. His wife and kids were swept away. They are still missing. He is in the hospital recovering. He is expected to make a full recovery, but has a long road ahead.

[15:05:10]

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KELLYE BURKE, SPOKESWOMAN, MCCOMB FAMILY: Jonathan McComb is being treated for injuries at a San Antonio hospital. Physically, he's expected to make a full recovery, though, emotionally, he has a long road ahead and will need the love and support of all of us.

At this time, Jonathan's wife, Laura Schultz McComb, and their two children, Andrew and Leighton McComb, are still missing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRAY: And, Brooke, you know, they did state the fact over and over that they will be out here searching. They're not going to give up. They have 40, 50-plus teams out here. They are searching by boat. They are searching by foot. They are searching a lot of the tangled debris. They have nine canine teams out here.

And rain or shine, they're going to be out there and searching for these people until the job is done. Unfortunately, as we have been saying, there's more rain in the forecast. It has been hampering their rescue efforts a little bit, not necessarily because of river rise, because it is steadily going down, but it's just hampering from for their safety. And, in fact, it messes up a little bit of the debris that is already on the ground, and so having a little trouble there. But they are making progress and they are going to stay on the ground until it is done, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Jennifer Gray, thank you.

A man in Phoenix plans to hold a controversial draw Mohammed cartoon contest tomorrow, scheduled location for his event outside of one building right here, the Islamic Community Center in North Phoenix. The gathering is billed as a -- quote, unquote -- "freedom of speech rally." The community center's president says the planned event is inciting, because, context, folks, remember, less than a month ago, two men wearing body armor tried to ambush a similar event that was in Garland, Texas.

An unarmed security guard was shot in the leg. The suspects were roommates in Phoenix. Police shot and killed both of those men.

But given what happened there, let me bring in Tom Fuentes, former FBI assistant director.

And, Tom, we now know that the FBI is involved here in anticipation of this event in Arizona. Can you just tell me, even when I think of Garland and the security, I think like $60,000 was spent on metal detectors and everything else. How would they be preparing for this event?

TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Probably, Brooke, the same way they did for Garland, many SWAT teams and police officers within the building, at the entrances and exits of the building, and on the outer perimeter in the parking lot.

So, I think they will be probably as prepared, if not more, than what they had in Garland. And as it turned out, the preparation was adequate to take on the two people that showed up. But I think if you look back on it, and put a little bit of perspective, for all of the thousands of people in the U.S. that were probably offended, and out of that, out of the hundreds that are actually ISIS wannabes and talking about going and joining and doing terrorist acts, to actually only have two people show up to try to do a violent act, I think, is pretty significant, compared to what we have seen overseas and around the world at similar events.

BALDWIN: Well, it just takes two, as you well know...

FUENTES: Well, that's true.

BALDWIN: ... to terrorize, right, a community.

And something -- and as you bring us ISIS sympathizers -- and, of course, you're well-versed in the threat of homegrown terrorism -- we know in the case in Garland that one of the attackers was once on the feds' radar. And so I guess, looking ahead to what's going to happen in Phoenix, what are authorities doing right now as far as culling through social media, looking online, tracking any potential nefarious individuals to prevent something else happening here?

FUENTES: That's exactly what they're doing. They're doing a full- court press on anybody that ever expressed outrage on this or in the aftermath of Garland expressed support for the fact the attack took place in the first place.

So, anybody that's had any kind of a social media posting or contacted friends, relatives, neighbors that they thought Garland was a good idea and that attacking this one in Phoenix would be a good idea, you know, they will be closely monitored.

But I think that, you know, from just the tactical standpoint, set up the most security you can possibly have at the event, and if people are going to come to you, you may not know of everyone that has that intent, but if you're already in place and have a secure perimeter, at least you stand a great chance of preventing a bad act from happening.

BALDWIN: Again, this cartoon contest takes place tomorrow in Phoenix. I hope we are not talking about it tomorrow. I hope it's quiet.

Tom Fuentes, thank you so much.

FUENTES: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Coming up -- coming up next here on CNN, did the Aurora theater gunman know the consequences of his actions? You will want to hear what the psychiatrist who interviewed James Holmes after that attack just revealed in this Colorado courtroom and how that might impact his chances with this insanity defense.

[15:10:00]

Plus, Baghdad, is the capital city here, is it in the crosshairs with ISIS on the move in Iraq, capturing cities? How vulnerable is Baghdad? CNN has exclusive video from the front lines of the fights in that area.

Also, 10 years now after her disappearance, a possible new lead in the Natalee Holloway case. We will take you live to Aruba. You're watching CNN.

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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

It may be the testimony that makes the case to convict the man who shot up a Colorado movie theater, killing 12 and wounding 70 more. Jurors at any moment are to see and hear James Holmes himself, as they view reported interviews that were conducted with psychiatrists.

[15:15:05]

Remember, there's no doubt if Holmes committed this horrendous massacre in that Aurora theater, but the defense is pushing he is not guilty by reason of insanity. But now Holmes' lawyers have to face this uphill climb. I'm not talking about the videos. They're still to be presented. I'm talking about the statement from a forensic psychiatrist who interviewed James Holmes after the shootings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. WILLIAM REID, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: My opinion is that he did not -- is that, whatever he suffered from, it did not prevent him from forming the intent and knowing what he was doing and the consequences of what he was doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: In other words, James Holmes knew what he was doing when he went on that bloody rampage.

Joining me now, clinical psychiatrist Dale Archer, who wrote a piece about James Holmes for "Psychology Today."

Dale, thank you so much for joining me.

First, I just want you to react to the psychiatrist's words, again, saying, whatever he suffered from, it did not prevent him from forming intent and knowing the consequences of what he was doing.

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I think, first of all, that's one psychiatrist's opinion.

And I would suspect there's going to be more than one that's going to be weighing in on this case. But it's a tricky situation that the psychiatrists are dealing with here, because to prove not guilty by reason of insanity, you basically have to say that the individual was psychotic at the time they committed the act and they didn't know right from wrong and they didn't know what they were doing.

Now, the prosecution is going to argue, well, look, he went through all of this elaborate planning. Clearly, he knew what he was doing because he planned the thing out from top to bottom.

The defense's stance is going to be, yes, he planned it all out, but then he had a psychotic break, which caused him to act out, because you can write about it, you can talk about it, you can think about it, and there are a lot of psychotic individuals that are out there that I have treated that think talk, write, but never act. So, here the question is, what caused him to act and was that a psychotic break? That's going to be the question.

BALDWIN: Let me ask -- let's take a half-step back. I want you to put yourself in the shoes of one of these psychiatrists who's sitting in front of this man after he kills all these people and injures dozens and dozens more. He's got this dyed hair. He's sitting there. They have put bags on his hands to keep the gun residue intact, and he's playing with them like puppets.

And you're the person who's supposed to be evaluating him, questioning him. What questions would you be asking? What would you be listening for?

ARCHER: Well, it's not so important as to what questions you ask, but, of course, when you're a legal psychiatrist in a case like this, it all boils down to, are they really psychotic, or are they faking? That's what you have to ascertain.

BALDWIN: How do you do that?

ARCHER: And they're -- what's that?

BALDWIN: How do you do that?

ARCHER: Well, it just takes time with the individual.

And after seeing hundreds and hundreds of psychotic individuals, you get a good feel for when someone is faking and when they really have a psychosis, because you have treated so many real psychotic individuals. Now, in this particular case, time with Mr. Holmes would be the key. So you would do an evaluation over several days. You would want to meet with him, you would want to talk with him, you would want to see if his thoughts follow any logical pattern whatsoever, because, when you try to deceive, there's typically a logic to the thought pattern that goes into that, I'm trying to deceive you.

A broken brain that has psychosis is completely illogical. A thought disorder is paramount in the condition. So, that's really what you're trying to sort through and figure out.

BALDWIN: Can you give me an example, one telltale sign, given all the people you have evaluated, how you know they're not faking it?

ARCHER: I wish -- I wish it was that easy that you could say, OK, here's a sign, and if they show that, then they're not faking it.

Again, what I'm looking for is a thread of logic through their thought processes.

BALDWIN: Got it.

ARCHER: If I can find that logic, then I start to question, is this really a thought disorder? Is this really a broken brain? Does this person have schizophrenia?

BALDWIN: OK. So we know that these jurors have been handed this 29- page notebook that was mailed to Holmes' psychiatrist. And we're looking at some of the pictures. There's stick figures, both standing and presumably dead, lying flat, his obsession to kill since childhood, talks about having a broken mind or a lifelong hatred of mankind.

You have looked at some of these pieces. Dale, what's your sense?

ARCHER: Well, I mean, when I look at it, clearly, there is a problem with his thinking that's throughout the excerpts of the journal that I have read.

So there's no doubt in my mind this is a guy that's suffered from a fairly young age. And he's obviously fixated with death and murder, killing.

[15:20:00]

But, again, the big step is going from writing about it, talking about it, to doing it.

BALDWIN: To acting on it.

ARCHER: That's a big, big difference.

And, yes, as I have said, that's going to be the key for the defense here, is, if they can say, yes, he did all of that, we admit he did it, we admit he planned it, but then he had a psychotic break, and that's the reason he acted on it. That's going to be what they're going to be going for.

BALDWIN: That's what they have to determine, and that's what we will be watching for.

Dale Archer, thank you so much. ARCHER: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Next, if Baghdad is the prize, can ISIS take it over? My next guest, who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, says he knows what it will take to protect the capital city there.

Plus, five Republican candidates for president are now tied neck and neck with the lead in the latest poll here. What will these candidates have to do to stand out? Stay with me. You're watching CNN.

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[15:25:11]

BALDWIN: ISIS is everywhere.

That is the assessment CNN is getting from people on the ground in Iraq's Anbar province. As Iraqi forces continue their standoff with the terrorists in Ramadi, further north in Baiji, more intense fighting has broken out around the country's largest oil refinery.

But every new battlefront means one less soldier to defend the capital city.

And my next guest says the goal for the United States should be protecting Baghdad at all costs. He's Kevin Carroll. Kevin served as a U.S. Army officer in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Kevin, welcome.

KEVIN CARROLL, FORMER U.S. ARMY OFFICER: Thanks for having me on, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Listen, you know, of all people, you know the significance of Baghdad. You know that you cannot have a black ISIS flag flying above, you know, the U.S. Embassy there. So, what is number one thing the U.S. needs to do to prevent that from happening?

CARROLL: That's right, Brooke. It would be a strategic disaster. And I think we need to change our current strategy, which is clearly not working.

I think we need to ramp up airstrikes. We have to ramp up special operations. We have to capture and interrogate ISIS leaders and we also have to put ground combat forces in.

BALDWIN: ISIS is strong strategically. I mean, you point out in a piece of yours recently that there were in the fight for Ramadi these three huge truck bombs, some reportedly as large as the one that was used in the Oklahoma City bombing.

But I have talked to many, many generals here, one as recently as last hour, and they're basically saying to me, Baghdad will not fall to ISIS. But I also know this is an unconventional war. So, my question to you would be, how can they be so sure? CARROLL: Well, many generals also thought that Mosul and other cities

wouldn't fall to ISIS, but it did. ISIS has been bragging on social media that their leader is going to give the speech marking the end of Ramadan, which is just in mid-July, in Baghdad.

So ISIS is really calling its shot, like Babe Ruth in the '32 World Series, that they can do this. And I think that if they use the same sort soft strategy they did in Ramadi of using terrorist truck bombs to breach the defenses and then sending their main force in that, yes, that could happen.

And we need to take definite action to prevent that from happening.

BALDWIN: One of the actions -- you know, there's a lot of talk about intelligence. Right? And there was a special ops raid recently in Syria. Recently, we were just talking on the show about the thousands of gigabytes of material that was found, hoping to lead -- obviously intel -- and to leaders, et cetera.

But you say actually what's even more valuable is interrogation of captured terrorists. You being former CIA, you know how that works. So why isn't that happening, and what kind of information could be gleaned from that kind of interrogation?

CARROLL: Well, you're exactly right. That's what needs to happen.

And the reason it hasn't happened in several years was a policy decision to essentially stop doing interrogations or to Mirandize people, read them their rights, soon after they were interrogated. And so we have lost countless amounts of information that could be used to protect the homeland from terror attacks and to help identify other high-value targets to be captured.

Our forces are to be commented on than recent raid. I understand that they intended to capture the target. He ended up being killed in a firefight. That happens. But we need to let our special operators off the leash and let them out there, multiple targets every night, the way it was back in Iraq back in '06 and '07, when we defeated al Qaeda in Iraq.

BALDWIN: Here at home, police departments, their roles. I know here in New York, the police department here, they've actually budgeted resources for the fight against homegrown terrorists, specifically ISIS.

My question to you is, how should local police be fighting here at home? And are they capable? Given budgetary restraints nationwide of police departments anyway, is this even possible?

CARROLL: Well, they simply have to dedicate some resources to it.

I'm from New York City originally. And the NYPD has put tremendous resources into counterterrorism, because it's what needs to be done in this day and age. And I think that using traditional law enforcement techniques and running informants in places where they know the bad guys are, they can absolutely develop sources and glean valuable intelligence and contribute to the fight.

BALDWIN: Kevin Carroll, thank you so much, sir. I appreciate it.

CARROLL: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Next, as the Republican field for the White House becomes increasingly crowded -- look at all these faces on the screen -- we have got a revealing new poll indicating which Republican, if any, actually holds the early edge. Wait until you see those results.

And a possible new witness in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway 10 years now since she vanished. Her father is speaking to CNN. Hear what he has to say straight ahead.

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