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DR. DREW

State to Pay for Inmate`s Sex Change Surgery; A Wife`s Midlife Sex Crisis; First Ever Body Transplant. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 19, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(21:00:08) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, sex change surgery for a convicted murder. You taxpayers will foot the bill. $100,000 for this

inmate`s surgery. Plus, a wife`s midlife sex crisis leads her to sleeping around for a year, blogging about it, and all of it with her husband`s

permission.

(MUSIC INTRODUCTION)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: And, let us get started "Top of the Feed," what you cannot stop talking about on Twitter and Facebook. Controversy erupts as a federal

judge rules that an inmate serving time for a murder should be granted a sex change operation that she very much wants. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This California inmate is serving 17 years to life for second-degree murder. Michelle Norsworthy entered prison as a

male in 1987 but began living as a female in the `90s.

Now, a federal judge has ruled the state must pay for the inmate`s sex change surgery. But critics say forcing taxpayers to foot the bill, around

$100,000 is outrageous and wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And the judge says this inmate sex change surgery is, quote, "A serious medical need." Joining us, Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu!

And Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, Professor at Pepperdine University; Kelvin Washington, radio host. Thank you, everybody. Sam, what do we know

about the case?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULLU.COM: OK. So, according to the "Los Angeles Times," the inmate shot and killed the man during a bar

fight. OK? This was in 1985. Now, during that time --

PINSKY: That is what he did to qualify for the $100,000?

SCHACHER: No. Let us hold off on that.

PINSKY: OK.

SCHACHER: Because I think I have a different viewpoint than you do.

PINSKY: OK.

SCHACHER: So that occurred in 1985. Now, at the time he was identifying as a male. His name was Jeffrey Bryan Norsworthy. Now, Jeffrey was

convicted, second-degree murder, 1987, sentenced to 17 years to life in prison. And, then it was not until the 1990s when he finally identified as

a female known as Michelle Norsworthy.

PINSKY: Wait a minute. Sam in 1987 he was convicted?

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: I am doing that math. Why is he still in prison? To get the sex change operation?

SCHACHER: Well --

PINSKY: Kelvin, this sounds like a sweet dude. It is like "Second-degree murder, I am going to stay here, man! This is fantastic."

KELVIN WASHINGTON, RADIO HOST: You know what? And, put it on the taxpayers. That is the other part about it that he does -- or she does not

have to pay for it. The taxpayers do. I do not feel comfortable with that. Like you know, it is something -- if there is a need and medical

need or emergency, that is to be debatable what the need is, Sam. I do not know if it is that is the criteria for a need if you are asking me. And,

not to mention I am paying for it. I am not with that.

SCHACHER: OK. Listen, I think it is a matter of life and death in this case. And, we will talk about that. But the main thing is if people are

going to be outraged by paying for an inmate`s medical needs, which I completely agree with, then we need to be --

PINSKY: Any medical needs?

SCHACHER: Well, here is the thing. We as taxpayers already pay for all of these inmates` medical needs.

PINSKY: Yes. Sure.

SCHACHER: So, why are we singling out this one transgender who --

PINSKY: I am not singling it out.

SCHACHER: This story is about her.

PINSKY: She is the one making the issue. Well, she is making the issue.

SCHACHER: This story is about her.

PINSKY: My issue is great. She has gender dysphoria , diagnosed now year 2000. She is now 51 years of age. Right, Judy? She had gender Dysphoria.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right.

PINSKY: A serious medical condition.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: But my question is how far do we have to go to treat that condition? In other words, if somebody has some sort of let us say they

have some sort of nasal airway problem, do they have to have the top of the line surgery? Cannot they just have a basic surgery?

Cannot this guy -- this lady now just have -- I do not know, breast augmentation and some hormone therapy and really get -- and some individual

psycho therapy, whatever else she needs to get through this? Do we have to do the full thing? Do we have to pay for the top of the line?

HO: Well, Dr. Drew, this is not a top of the line treatment for this inmate.

PINSKY: $100,000?

HO: It is not. This is a medically necessary treatment.

PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Wait. That is $100,000 is minimal care?

HO: It is not about the money right now. Let us think about what gender dysphoria is and what the criteria is for somebody to get medically

necessary treatment for gender dysphoria.

PINSKY: Which means all the way to the math.

HO: Not always for everybody. Not for this woman.

PINSKY: Slow down.

HO: Not for this woman.

PINSKY: Not always for everybody. That is what Kelvin and I are wondering about.

WASHINGTON: Yes.

HO: OK. Are you guys saying that treatment is not individualized whether you have cancer or diabetes?

PINSKY: No. No. It is individualized. Individualized.

HO: Right. So, it is individualized. So, for this woman. She actually meets the criteria for medically necessary candidate. There is a lot --

WASHINGTON: Which --

PINSKY: But, Kelvin hang on. Kelvin, hang on. Let me translate for everybody medically necessary. Cut off penis.

(LAUGHING)

HO: Well, hold on. Hold on.

PINSKY: That is what we are talking about. That is what we are talking about.

SCHACHER: Wait.

HO: We are making a joke of this. However --

WASHINGTON: That is not a joke. That is what it is.

PINSKY: That is what we are talking about.

HO: Imagine if you woke up every single day and you thought that you were supposed to be a --

PINSKY: No, no, it is terrible. Listen, I do not want to diminish how terrible this is for people to have gender dysphoria. It is terrible. My

question is, "How far do we have to go for an inmate to complete the cycle?"

WASHIGNTON: There is an elephant in the room --

SCHACHER: What? What is the proverbial?

WASHINGTON: -- That she is a prisoner.

SCHACHER: I know.

WASHINGTON: A murderer.

PINSKY: We have been goofing a little bit on this story. There is a very serious sort of element in it, which is this issue of her having been raped

repeatedly.

SCHACHER: Repeatedly.

PINSKY: So, my question is -- I do not think we know the answer to this. Does she have to have --

SCHACHER: Sex reassignment surgery.

PINSKY: -- the complete surgery in order to now go to a female prison. In other words, is part of the medical necessity here -- we got to get this

what these men are perceiving to be a female and raping in a prison. I would think the medically necessary element is we got to get her out of

that prison.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: If that means she has to have a complete transformation.

SCHACHER: Amen. Amen.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

HO: Amen.

WASHINGTON: Can we open this up, though, for other people? For other prisoners if I see that she got -- I do not want to call it special

treatment, but got this treatment and then gets to go to a female prison where as far as physicality will not be quite the same. Well, there are

some other people in prison who might look at that as that is an easy way out. I will do that just to get out of this situation.

SCHACHER: They are going to undergo some sort of -- there is going to be protocol to evaluate them.

PINSKY: That is an interesting point, but that will be up for the professionals to be alert to. Now, this issue of hepatitis C, my thing is

hepatitis C is now a curable condition. And ,it is expensive to cure it. But, there is some intermediate things that you can do that are not as

expensive and still cure it. Why is she not getting that? That is what is going to kill her? What is going on here?

SCHACHER: Well, maybe she is -- I think she is also suicidal. She is also depressed. And, in order for her to feel like a woman as she identifies,

she needs to undergo the sex reassignment surgery. There is a lot involved, but I get why people are outraged. We as taxpayers, we do not

get free health care. So, we have to commit murder to go and get free health care?

PINSKY: Correct. Thank you.

SCHACHER: I get it, I get it.

PINSKY: That is what the issue here.

SCHACHER: I get it.

PINSKY: We have a statement. We have a statement from the transgenderlaw center co-counsel for Michelle. That is the woman in question here. It

reads in part, quote, "There is a clear medical consensus that health care related to gender transition is necessary and life-saving for many people.

And, Judy, she testified, quote, "She was suffering excruciating psychological and emotional pain." That is the quote. And, that renders

it medically necessary. But, I again Ikeep asking the question.

I get that it is medically necessary. But somebody is saying it is medically necessary to go all the way to have the state-of-the-art

treatment. And, that is just what Kelvin and I are questioning.

HO: And, I think the terminology is where we are tripping up here. Because I believe that Sam and I think this is medically necessary. And,

there is a lot of proof that because he actually went through hormone therapy.

PINSKY: But, I do not disagree with the medical necessity. I am questioning to what extent you have to go with that medical care for this

medically necessary need. That is the question.

HO: And, I think for this individual, she has already gone through all of the other treatments. She has had not the best response to everything.

She has had continued to have psychological pain and physical ailments.

PINSKY: And rape. So, the environment she is in is not suitable.

WASHINGTON: Are we naming things that happen in prison psychological issues?

HO: No.

WASHINGTON: Most prisoners, rape, that happens to many prisoners whether they have gender issues or not. I mean this is prison. It is not a great

place. And, it is prison for murder. So, again --

HO: But still then she has been depressed since she was a little kid because of gender dysphoria.

WASHINGTON: I cannot help that portion of it.

HO: That is why I am telling you why it is medically necessary, because gender dysphoria is --

PINSKY: Take off the gloves for a second.

HO: OK.

PINSKY: Gender dysphoria is no fun. It is terrible. It makes people suffer and they can be treated effectively. You are right. We will be

right back.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: $100,000. That is what California taxpayers could be paying for this inmate to undergo sex change surgery. The

convicted killer entered prison as a male in 1987, but has been living as a female since the `90s. Now, a federal judge has ruled that denying her the

surgery would be a violation of her constitutional rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And critics of that judge is ruling say taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for this convicted killer. Back with Sam, Judy, and

Kelvin. And, I want to get right to a Facebook post from Marivel. "Wow, I cannot afford braces for my daughter, but a murderer can get a free sex

change that is so wrong."

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

The audience is agreeing with Kelvin. Kelvin, that has been your issue. It is not wrong. Listen, it is not wrong that somebody should get

medically necessary treatment, Judy, Sam. It is not wrong that somebody should get a sex change operation.

It is wrong in my opinion that the taxpayers should have to foot the bill for the top of the line treatment. A $100,000 to me sounds like top of the

line. Judy, it just does.

HO: Well, Dr. Drew, I think you said that in both -- you said the medical necessary part, but then you said the top of the line part. But for this

person, it is the medically necessary treatment at this point.

In all of the treatment that she has gotten, she has not really responded the way that we want her to for hormone treatment. And, that is true, for

some people, they can stop there and they can maintain themselves well with just the hormone treatment.

PINSKY: Right.

HO: Unfortunately for Michelle, she has not been able to. And, there are other extenuating factors like the fact that she is in prison, she is being

raped --

PINSKY: Well, the rap and all that to me -- Kelvin, be a little sympathetic to this. I am very sympathetic. Yes. I mean, you want to get

-- If part of the transition gets her out of the male prison into a female population --

WASHINGTON: Yes. I am very sympathetic to that. Again, I am just more focusing on a couple of things for instance, the tax. I did not get to

vote on that. Did anybody else? Was I off that day or something? Where was this bill that day we voted on?

Should we be paying these things as taxpayers. And, also, again, it is just I do not understand the necessity that far. This is maybe out of my

league. But, like Dr. Drew has said, were there steps before and then there are people who have not committed a crime who have not gotten needs

met.

PINSKY: Let me bring somebody in who has been through this.

SCHACHER: OK.

PINSKY: On Skype, I have Aurora Persichetti. She is 18 years old. She is a transgendered YouTuber. Aurora, thank you so much for joining us. My

question to you is, is this judge correct. This woman should get the surgery regardless of the cost. Is that right?

AURORA PERSICHETTI, TRANSGENDER YOUTUBER: Well, I am personally, I am not a professional, but I am so happy that the transgender community is being

looked at with equality regarding access to medical care in this case.

PINSKY: And --

PERSICHETTI: And having said that --

PINSKY: Go ahead. Yes, please.

PERSICHETTI: Transgender like me with private insurance have to battle getting these surgeries covered.

PINSKY: So, you are a little envious, a little jealous, which I do not blame you. Maybe you should commit a crime. Maybe you go to prison and

get the surgery then. But, listen, you are in the middle of your transition or you already completed now?

PERSICHETTI: I am six months, actually into my hormone replacement therapy.

PINSKY: And, are you -- is your intention, you feel as though it is appropriate for you to have the complete procedure?

PERSICHETTI: Well, yes. I think so. I noticed --

PINSKY: Well, what I want to ask is have you looked at the prices of stuff? $100,000 sounds like you are getting the best treatment. Is that

what it is going to cost you?

PERSICHETTI: Of course, yes. It is very expensive. And, ethically, that is the part where I feel conflicted. Well, considering that Norsworthy is

a convicted murderer, I am so glad in the eyes of the law this medical condition is being viewed the same as any other medical condition that

people are treated for in prison. This is a huge step for transgender equality. Not only in health care, but in raising awareness to the general

public of transgender citizens.

SCHACHER: To that point, though, Dr. Drew, I just wanted to say I do understand why people are outraged. But why are we singling out this

transgender woman? Why are not we up in arms for paying for all of inmates` medical treatment, the chemotherapy, all the other stuff? Why are

we singling her out?

PINSKY: If there were some super fancy treatment for some obscure illness that there was a good treatment for that they did not have to have the

fanciest cure for, I could make the same argument, whatever the illness.

I am just saying do you have to go to math with every treatment for every condition when you have got a convicted murderer on your hands? Listen, I

want to get to the audience. We have a question from the audience. What do you have out there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: So, my question is it a struggle to want the surgery and not being able to have it, and can you relate to this inmate`s

desperation for the surgery?

PINSKY: And, we are asking that of our guest. Yes? Aurora? Aurora, go ahead.

PERSICHETTI: Yes, I -- well, personally, I do believe that surgery is necessary for lots of people. Though, I do not think having a penis or a

vagina should define whether you are a man or a woman.

And, I of course struggle actually, because in the future, although I am only six months on hormones, it is very early into the process, I do

believe many transwomen and transmen as well believed that the surgery is the end goal of a transition. But it is just -- financial aspect.

PINSKY: Right. Aurora is making Kelvin and our case, which is not everyone has to have the surgery. A lot of people strive for it, but not

everyone needs it in order to be properly treated. We have another audience question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: So, if the inmate were a cancer patient, could he or she be denied chemotherapy?

PINSKY: No, no.

SCHACHER: Why?

PINSKY: No! Because what she might be denied is some experimental treatment that costs $100,000. You could deny that. You could deny that.

SCHACHER: This is life and death of the her too, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I am not saying it is not.

SCHACHER: I know you are upset.

HO: Oh, no. You put him in the fetal position, Sam.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Sam!

SCHACHER: Just stay down there.

HO: Dr. Drew. Here is my point too. I mean if we think about depression there is obviously lots of levels of how to treat depression, right? Some

people do not recover from medication treatment, from psycho therapy. And, then they have to go to some extreme method, some extensive --

PINSKY: That is your theory. I hear that is your theory. I know you are surmising that this is where they have gotten to and again, we are getting

her out of the male population also. I get it. I get it. Another audience question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Hi, Dr. Drew. I am a clinical psychologist for one of the maximum security prisons. And, my question is --

PINSKY: Wow.

SCHACHER: Ooh!

PINSKY: Wait. Stay with us! Why did not you step up sooner. We need to talk to you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: My question is, if you have already probably spent over $100,000 in mental health services serving the depression for

the last 15 years. So, if the surgery would actually --

PINSKY: If they had done it sooner, we would have saved that money?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Exactly.

SCHACHER: Oh!

PINSKY: Good case. A legitimate. That is a legitimate case.

HO: Smart psychologist.

PINSKY: Yes. Thank you for that. Well done. So, here is the deal. I do not know that we have the answer here. And, thank god we on this panel are

not making this decision. I think all of us, the eyebrows should be raised. There is no doubt about it. When excessive expense, no expense is

spared is really we are talking here.

Where no expense is spared for the treatment of somebody who should be being punished, our eyebrows should be raised. I am not saying draconian

treatment. And, as you just heard from our psychologist from a maximum security prison, it may be to our advantage to do these kinds of expensive

treatments earlier and save expenses later. We are back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: What happens when a woman demands an open marriage and gets it? 18 years into a committed legally binding

relationship with her husband, Scott. Robin Rinaldi took a one-year time- out.

She says she was having a serious mid-life crisis. So, during a 12-month stretch, Robin hooked up with about a dozen men and women, friends and

strangers, and joined a sex communes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Time for a segment we call, "What the?" -- unbelievable stories dominating your conversations at the office, at home, on the internet.

Back with Sam, Judy and Kelvin. Robin says she is happy now, but kind of wonder about the husband. Is he happy? She will join us to tell us the

story in just a minute. So, you, guys, you heard the story. Is it OK? Mark would be cool with this?

SCHACHER: Would my husband be cool with this? No. And, you know what? And, her husband was not cool with it either. But, they -- He was

reluctant. But, we have to remember, even if you do not agree with it, these are two adults who agreed on these terms, reluctant or not, and you

cannot fault her for that. I do kind of feel like she was trying to get her cake and eat it too, though.

PINSKY: And, Judy, the last thing we could do if a marriage is sputtering is to say, "Well, I will tell you what? Let us bring out the people in.

That will solve it."

HO: Right. That never works.

PINSKY: Never works.

HO: I feel like that is not the first time that we have heard that,. You know, let us bring in some excitement. Let us bring somebody else in the

marriage. This is done in a very systematic way. She really kind of went about this.

PINSKY: Thought about it.

HO: And, she was very goal-oriented.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: My concern is, was there a part of her that was very oppositional because look at what her husband did. He basically did not consider her

needs and what she wanted, went and got the vasectomy. So, now, she is saying well then I get to do what I want too.

PINSKY: Well, it is interesting when I explained to the audience here what the story, just during the break I explained it to them. When I mentioned

that the husband got a vasectomy at the time in which she was saying maybe she wanted to have children, all the women in the audience like caught

their breath, like "Oh, this is terrible. Do whatever you want, honey."

(LAUGHING)

WASHINGTON: I am wondering was that ever discussed, Judy, like you were saying, you know, having children? I mean, usually, when you go into a

marriage, you have an understanding about things, things I would like to do, my career, children.

PINSKY: I did talk to her before the show. They changed -- She changed her ideas later on. They both started with, "I do not think so."

WASHINGTON: OK.

PINSKY: And, then she went, "Well, let us talk about it later." Well, later she decided I am ready now." And, he was, "Huh-uh."

WASHINGTON: That was still very shady of him to do that without telling her, absolutely. And, I understand her desire to want to explore her inner

freak. But, I am just -- my concern --

PINSKY: How about if she were a guy doing this? Would not we be disgusted?

WASHINGTON: Oh, we will be --

PINSKY: We could be pissed. Right? And, I do not excuse guys. I was like, "Dudes, go get do your thing when you are in your early 20s."

WASHINGTON: Yes.

PINSKY: That is the time to do that, not when you got a marriage, not when you got kids.

WASHINGTON: Right.

PINSKY: Stop it with this mid-life crisis, BS. It is nonsense. Do it early and do not get hurt and do not hurt anybody else.

WASHINGTON: Yes. Is it that what it supposed to be, though? You do what you do when you are younger, you get married. I thought we were supposed

to fight through these things, till death do us part.

SCHACHER: Right.

WASHINGTON: And, so, I am a little shocked that it is a little rocky now and I am going to go out and get another guy, get another woman, join some

sex communes. I thought it was supposed to be, we are in this together until the end.

PINSKY: All right. Well, Robin Rinaldi, documented her erelong experiment in something called, "The Wild Oats Project." One woman`s mid life quest

for passion at any cost. She is here. And, Robin, we are going give you a chance to defend yourself and tell us why you did this.

ROBIN RINALDI, OPEN-MARRIAGE SEX: Well, I was 43 when my husband decided to get the vasectomy. And, we had talked about it for years, about five

years. My maternal urge came on late. And, when he said no, I realized it is too late to really go out and rush to have a child with someone else.

It was just -- it was going to be me, no children, no family, four lovers total at a straight and narrow youth. And, I had kind of put all my eggs

into this, you know, building a family basket. And --

PINSKY: Unfortunately, nothing was done with those eggs.

(LAUGHING)

RINALDI: Yes. So to speak. Literally.

PINSKY: I am just saying.

RINALDI: And, that is when I just said this, "I cannot. This will not do." And, instead of, you know, running off, leaving or you know right off

the bat or going off and cheating because I knew that was about to happen. I could feel it, I went to him and said let us try something.

And, I have to say, it was not an attempt to save my marriage. It was an attempt to save part of my soul while preserving hopefully the marriage.

We knew it was risky, and he agreed.

PINSKY: And you, however, broke couple of the rules right off the top.

RIALDI: We both did. We both broke -- we made three rules and we both broke two of them over the course of the year. But, I will say that both

of us -- well, I can speak for myself. When I would break a rule, I would run straight back to them and kind of try to do it again.

PINSKY: What was the rule? What did you break?

RINALDI: I broke the condom rule once or twice and I know. And, I felt, "Oh my God, I agonized over it." And, then I went back to it. And, then I

stick with it. My husband broke a serious relationship rule.

PINSKY: I feel like I am talking to the -- whenever I hear that, I feel like I am talking to the teen moms, like, "What?"

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: "How old are you?"

SCHACHER: Right.

HO: What? What?

PINSKY: The teen moms say that to me. "Oh, no, we are going to go down." Like, what were you thinking?" Anyway, sorry. But, go ahead. So, any

other rule?

RINALDI: Well, he broke the serious relationship rule. We had one where we were not supposed to see someone over a long period of time, and he

ended up doing that. He also broke the safe sex rule.

PINSKY: I am going to stop you. Judy, no surprise that intimacy develops, real intimacy, that somebody gets a relationship out of this because we are

humans. That is what happens when people get close like this, no?

HO: That is right. Humans are built to want and have attachment. And, we are actually built to want and have attachment with few close individuals

in our lives. It is not a free-for-all. So, when you start to putting in the mix physical relationship, physical intimacy, it is going to bleed

over.

I do not care if you are a man or a woman. Maybe women are somehow a little bit more susceptible to it because of cultural values, but it is

across the board. All humans, men and women all need attachment.

WASHINGTON: Do we know if we had someone, I guess I can say, on deck? Because just kind of hearing the story, it seemed like he was a little too

-- oh, from just what I know, you can correct me if I am wrong. But, just like that is why he had the long relationship, because he maybe already had

her, the relationship, so the minute he had an opportunity, they became even realer.

RINALDI: In all fairness to him, and by the way we are still friends. We had a very amicable --

PINSKY: But not friends . If you want to know what the outcome with the marriage, not so much.

SCHACHER: Right.

RINALDI: Right.

WASHINGTON: Not too much.

RINALDI: OK. But in all fairness to him, I do not think he had someone on deck.

PINSKY: OK.

RINALDI: I think he developed -- see, I think he had what Dr. Drew says we all should do, and I agree with him. "Do it in your 20s, and then

graduate toward commitment."

PINSKY: He had done that?

RINALDI: He was committed to me.

PINSKY: So, he had done that?

RINALDI: He had already done that.

PINSKY: You had not done that.

RINALDI: And, I think he was not looking for that. So, he ends up with the one woman. I had never done that, and so it just kind of exploded.

PINSKY: And you ended up in a sex commune. Tell us about that.

RINALDI: Yes. OK. So -- Slow down just a little bit.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Kelvin. Kelvin. I will slow down. Kelvin, take notes! Take notes.

(LAUGHING)

WASHINGTON: OK. OK. She perked up.

RINALDI: So, I am a journalist in San Francisco. And, as a journalist, I write about subcultures, and you know I am more curious and open to things

than maybe your average housewife, let us say. And, so, I end up going to this sexual education center called "One Taste" and it focuses on female

sexuality.

And, I ended up hanging out there a lot. I actually ended up living there. They had like a residence that was more like a dorm, like everyone had

their own private room. And I ended up living there for about three months and making a lot of friends and that kind of thing. So, it was not really

like the `70s sex communes you see where everyone is like in a naked pile or something.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: All right. We got to take a quick break. When we come back, we will have questions for Robin and from our audience.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: "Good Girls Speaks Experience: I am a 44- year-old professional, well-educated, attractive woman in an open marriage, seeking single men age 35-50 to help me explore my sexuality. You must be

trustworthy, smart and skilled at conversation as well as in bed.

We will first meet in public for coffee or a drink. If that goes well, we will have dinner possibly followed by sex. Our time together will be

limited to three days, as I cannot became seriously involved. I am not posting because I am horny or want a fast hook-up."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We are talking about a wife who posted that ad on craigslist. Well, was that ad on craigslist? That is the very ad. OK. It was on the

casual encounters as part of craigslist as part of her year-long open experiment.

I am back with Sam, Judy, Kelvin, and of course Robin Rinaldi, the woman at the center of the story. Robin, thanks for joining us. What happened with

that craigslist post?

RINALDI: It was taken down within about three minutes.

PINSKY: Why?

RINALDI: It was flagged by craigslist users, and it took me hours to find out why? Because you cannot really call craigslist. You have to do it

all, like on their forums. And, I found out it was because people equated open marriage with cheating. They disapproved of it. And, also because I

did not list my stats, which meant my measurements.

PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.

RINALDI: And, so, I went out to look at how many men had posted for casual encounters who were married, not open marriage, cheating. 511. And women,

11 ads by women. And half of those were saying I do not want a married man. So, there was a big double standard on craigslist.

PINSKY: We have an audience question. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: If you did not instill your wild oaths before you were married, why did you wait until you were married to do it?

RINALDI: That is such a fair question. And, my husband and I had actually discussed it when we got married. And, you know, I fell in love with him

early. So, I figured you have to give some stuff up, right?

You make a choice in life. But then when it happened that I ended up wanting to have children and he just said no, I felt like I was just up

against a wall. Like I could not go to my deathbed with no children and hardly any lovers.

PINSKY: Does that satisfy you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Well, how old are you --

PINSKY: Well, right into the microphone. Not just Robin. Here we go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: How old were you when you got married?

RINALDI: We met when I was 25. And ,we got married in my 30s. And, I started wanting to have kids in my like mid-to-late 30s. And, that is when

we started talking about it.

PINSKY: I want to take this back to my panel, because I have heard her talk before. And, I tell you, what people start to get very excited. They

have significant problems with Robin as it pertains to the sanctity of marriage. They feel that she besmirched the sanctity of marriage, that she

was playing with that, right?

And, the other issue is female sexuality generally, which craigslist post brings up. People are fearful of female sexuality. So, when she comes

out, it goes, "Hey, I do this in a certain kind of way. People are like, "Hey, honey, what do you think? What you doing here? "

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: But 500 men did the same thing, Kelvin.

WASHINGTON: Yes. I mean there is a double standard unfortunately when guys go out and sow the royal oats or they are doing anything.

PINSKY: It is still disgusting. It is terrible.

WASHINGTON: It is terrible but, "Yes, bro, get them." You know?

PINSKY: Yes.

WASHINGTON: So, maybe we do need to put some more emphasis and guys need to protect themselves and be careful with what they are doing as well.

PINSKY: Do it in their 20s, Sam.

SCHACHER: Yes. And, I do not think that people should be shaming her. You know, I have read some of the posts.

PINSKY: How about the marriage thing?

SCHACHER: Slut shaming her.

PINSKY: What about marriage.

SCHACHER: The marriage thing, listen. I feel like I can ask Robin this.

PINSKY: Ask her.

SCHACHER: Robin, I feel like that you were avoiding the unavoidable, which was divorce. Looking back, do you think that if you would have spent a

whole year dedicated to really trying to ignite your marriage that possibly you could have saved it?

PINSKY: Or -- Or let me --

SCHACHER: Or you just divorce.

PINSKY: Yes. Let me get the option. Get a divorce.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: Go out and be single and do it straight.

RINALDI: First of all, I spent the five years -- that is fair.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: And, by the way, there is a weird piece we left out. She would go home on the weekends and stay with her husband.

SCHACHER: That is right.

RINALDI: The five years prior to this, it was not just me asking to have a baby. I put a stripper`s pole in the living room. I went and took

striptease lessons. I bought lingerie. I bought a thing of weekends in Northern California.

Like I was working if on my marriage. I was in therapy for 15 years. I worked on myself head to toe. Noon to midnight for my entire life. This

was my year of making out.

PINSKY: You regret this. The question really what Sam is asking, do you regret having done this?

RINALDI: No, I do not.

PINSKY: OK. Audience question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: So, I was wondering, since we are talk about marriage, and you guys are the psychologist and you know about this stuff,

what is it that makes a psychologically long lasting and healthy marriage?

PINSKY: OK. Put that in a bottle, and we will share the Nobel prize, Judy and I. You have a crack at it.

(LAUGHING)

HO: Well, I think direct communication is a huge part of it. And, this is one of the issues I think why people take some concerns with Robin`s

actions is that you are somehow still emotionally connected and bonded with this individual. And, even though the communication itself seemed to be

there, most of the times you were not present in that marriage.

And, I think if you do not work on yourself first like you said, the individual part, when you come together, even if there is direct

communication, something is missing and lost in the translation. And, I know you documented this in your wild oats project that you experienced

some trauma when you were a kid.

And, sometimes when we do that, we recreate some of that drama and chaos in our adult relationships. So we have not really learned how to have a good

and stable relationships. And, we do tend to runaway when conflict comes up because you just do not want to have to go through that again. So,

maybe you can share a little bit about that and how that plays into the way you dealt with this.

RINALDI: I think that did play into it. I think that, you know, not having the model of watching how parents work things out in a healthy way

is damaging in many ways in the long run. But I also think that my alcoholic upbringing, I was the first child in an alcoholic household.

Everyone knows what that means textbook, hero, overachiever, valedictorian, good girl, well-behaved, over responsible. This was almost my breaking out

of that. This was almost the last step. I learn in order in a year of open marriage than I learned in 15 years of therapy. It was messy, but I

learned it.

PINSKY: Listen, as far as what the marriages take, passion, which is really the one that is difficult. That is the one where if we could bottle

it, we would really is a Nobel prize on our hands. Passion is important. Love and attachment. So, Friendship, connection, empathy, caring, critical

and the piece we all lost in this country, commitment. You hang in no matter what.

Now, they made their choice. Did not work out. But generally, hanging in. Now, they made their choice. It did not work out, but generally hanging

in, being committed is a necessary ingredient. And it is good for kids. We are back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: It is time now for our "Click Fix," where my panel tells me what is happening on your all Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram feeds. Back with

Sam, Judy and Kelvin. Kelvin is up first.

WASHINGTON: Yes, all right. So, Dr. Drew, this is blowing up all over Instagram and Twitter. And, everyone is doing this. We know who Kylie

Jenner is, of course, part of the Kardashian empire, Bruce and Kris` daughter. And, she is known for her full lips. And, so, what people have

been doing is following what she does is trying to stick a shot glass. Put it on their lips so they can get a duck pouty bee-stungy look --

PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Hold on. They are sucking on a shot glass to traumatize their lips?

WASHINGTON: Yes. Exactly. So, they suck and get the whole vacuum situation going, Dr. Drew. And, their lips --

PINSKY: Oh my God, look at this picture!

WASHINGTON: And the problem with it is, Dr. Drew, is that it is making for what you are seeing here, people`s lips are exploding. People`s blood

vessels are happening.

PINSKY: Well, that is --

WASHINGTON: It looks like Duffy Duck. I do not know what is going on here.

PINSKY: That is the only way it works is by exploding the blood vessels.

WASHINGTON: Yes.

PINSKY: That is what the inflammatory fluid is coming from. Now, Kylie Jenner actually reacted in that story on Twitter. She writes, in part,

quote, "I am not here to try it and encourage people, young girls to look like me or to think this is the way they should look." However, there is a

contradictory tweet. Is that right, Kelvin?

WASHINGTON: Well, I just know that if the people are doing this, I am concerned, Dr. Drew, about boredom. Like what are we doing that we are

this bored?

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes.

WASHINGTON: We need to get some more activities for our students.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Thank you. Yes.

WASHINGTON: And, I do not know if there is a tweet I am missing or something, but this is concerning to me that we are not reading books, that

we are not going out --

PINSKY: You kids go out and play stickball.

(LAUGHING)

WASHINGTON: Do not do something that you are going to explode your lips. And, what happens, Dr. Drew, is a lot of kids are thinking it is going to

be fun and happen for 30 seconds and it has actually as you mentioned --

PINSKY: You can damage yourself.

WASHINGTON: Damage your lips.

PINSKY: It is ridiculous.

SCHACHER: It is starting to go viral too. A number of them have gone viral. That is what is really scary. Hunger for fame and virability.

PINSKY: It is hunger for fame, body dysmorphia all rolled into one psychotic package. Fantastic.

SCHACHER: Sam, what do you got?

PINSKY: OK. So, I saw this story from the UK and -- on Facebook, and basically it was this woman who was really upset because she found out that

her husband was cheating on her with their neighbor. And, she decided I am going to put you on a sex ban for life.

So, she said I am not going to divorce you, even though I do not want to be with you, because I do not want other women to be with you. So, he sleeps

on the couch. She sleeps upstairs. She checks his Facebook.

Checks his phone. She smells him when he comes in the door to make sure that he is not wearing any perfume. And, he is going along with it. He is

like, "OK, that is fine. I am going the prove to you that I can earn your trust."

PINSKY: He thinks he is going to get her back. No way.

SCHACHER: Yes.

WASHINGTON: Is he not still cheating?

SCHACHER: According to him. And, she is really -- she is like an investigator on him.

WASHINGTON: Yes.

HO: Yes.

SCHACHER: So, according to her, he has not yet cheated. But she does not even want to be with him. She just does not want him to be with someone

else.

PINSKY: You know, I like it is old school. Rather than checking the phone and checking the computers, she just smells him.

(LAUGHING)

HO: It is just her keen sense of smell. But, you know what? This is at least better than the woman who say you cannot have my man, so I am going

to cut off your penis.

SCHACHER: True.

PINSKY: Better. Better. Preferable.

HO: We have done that. It is way better.

PINSKY: Judy, speaking of cutting off penises --

SCHACHER: What?

PINSKY: The only thing that a guy would not -- wait.

WASHINGTON: Hey! Hey!

PINSKY: The second to the penis is this, he would not want this to be cut off.

HO: Oh, boy, your whole head.

SCHACHER: Excuse me?

HO: Speaking of crazy stories from other countries, there is a man in Russia. This has been trending on Twitter. I have actually heard about it

between my friend as well. A man in Russia has a muscle disease. So, he actually has not had a healthy body for a long time.

He is 30 years old. He has been talking to an Italian surgeon for over two years. They are going to do the first ever head to another body transplant

that all of these surgeons and doctors are ling up to try the help out on this operation.

They think it is going to take about 36 hours, about $15 million and there are conspiracy theories flying around that it is a marketing ploy because

there is a character who had a head transplant on Metal Gear Solid 5. I love video games. That is why I know this.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: Yes!

PINSKY: You are a geek.

HO: Anyways -- yes.

PINSKY: OK. We have photos we are looking at courtesy of east to west news. That is the gentleman that wants his head transplanted. I believe

that is the surgeon, Sergio Canavero. I heard something today.

SCHACHER: Can that happen?

PINSKY: No. No way. But, he -- first of all, you cannot re-grow the brain. We cannot do that. And, if we could, we could treat people with

transactions in court.

SCHACHER: Well, you have your brain, Dr. Drew. You love it.

PINSKY: Yes. He was talking about -- Thank you, thank you. We are talking about this part right here. Once, it has been cut, it does not

grow back down into the body. If we could do that if somebody broke their neck and was paralyzed, we could cure that. We cannot do that yet.

Someday.

WASHINGTON: Whose head are we talking about here?

PINSKY: That guy. The guy in the picture.

SCHACHER: A different body. A healthy body.

WASHINGTON: OK.

PINSKY: It is that guy who got -- He got severe --

WASHINGTON: Whose body are we talking about? Either way, no matter what part we are talking about, I need to know whose -- is it a Lebron-type body

or something?

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Lebron, Kelvin wants a head transplant.

WASHINGTON: That is who body I want.

PINSKY: You want Lebron. Got it. And, we are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: It is time now for Dr. Drew`s Qs, we call it. This is your chance to ask me anything. You can ask on Facebook, Twitter, even here in our

audience. I am taking questions on any topics. We are starting with Jeremy on Facebook. He asked "Have you ever answered the call when someone

said is there a doctor in the house?"

(LAUGHING)

Two things about that. Adam Carolla used to always say, what people ask, "What kind of doctor is Drew?" I always go, he is kind of a doctor if

somebody, if you are on an airplane and if somebody said, "Is there a doctor, he gets up and comes over and tries to help." And, yes, strangely

enough, on planes a few times, I have been asked. Nothing ever very serious. Let us go to the studio. What have you got?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hi. I am happily divorced from an unhealthy marriage.

PINSKY: Did you try a year of openness?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: No. No, I did not. But I -- sex is one of the leading rates of divorce.

PINSKY: Problems with sex. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes. Issues with sex, excuse me.

PINSKY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: And, so, do you think that it should be more verbalized, you know what I mean?

PINSKY: Earlier.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Earlier.

PINSKY: Remember, early in the show I said passion and then connection, love, and then commitment. The passion part is one of the three pillars of

a sustained relationship. And, that is the part that is renewing. If you do not pay attention to that or if you think it is not important, you will

regret it. It is hard to sustain a relationship. You just have a friendship then.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I think we rushed in. We did not even build the friendship.

PINSKY: See.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: There was celibacy before the marriage.

PINSKY: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: So, it is like a good and bad thing. A great thing to do, but it was a bad thing to get into a marriage with --

per se.

PINSKY: So, I will tell you what? Talk to Robin after the show --

(LAUGHING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Oh, no.

PINSKY: And she will give you something he has to know -- no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: No, thanks.

PINSKY: OK. Thanks for your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: But, thank you, doctor.

PINSKY: All right. This is now James on Facebook. Would I suggest using marijuana for better sleep? Is it a form of dependency? There is sort of

two questions loaded in that, obviously there is ridiculous political energy around the whole pot thing.

Everybody get over that. Sleep, it is good like once in a while to use it for sleep. But regularly for sleep it will end up backfiring eventually.

And, yes, if you are insisting on using it every day for sleep, that does become a dependency. Audience?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Hey, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hey!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: I just came out of like a six-month -- it was a three and a half year relationship, but that was about six months ago.

And, I am looking to continue the physical aspect of it.

PINSKY: With the same person?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: With the same person. And, everybody is saying, "You know, not a good idea."

PINSKY: Not a good idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: You know, once you get attach to it. Is there any way around that? I mean is --

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: So you want to go -- No, no. I love how men think. It is so awesome. So, you want to go from -- is it a girlfriend? Boyfriend-

girlfriend to friends with benefits. That is what you wanted?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Right. And, there has been a time period in between.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Two weeks?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Six months. Six months.

PINSKY: And, did she break up with you or you with her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: More so she with me.

PINSKY: That is right. If you get back into it. I understand why you want to do that. But if you get back into it, eventually somebody gets

connected and it does not you typically were. People get hurt that way. So, I would not recommend that.

So, one more. Jackie on Twitter. Have I ever gone to therapy? Yes, I went to therapy for a long, long time. I went for like 11 years. It was

one of the most important things I ever did. And, it informed and helped not just with patients, but even when I work on radio, and I have to make

very rapid assessments.

Because of really good therapy, I learned to listen -- this is going to sound bizarre. I listen not just carefully, I learned that in medical

school. I listen with my whole body. How I react to people informs what I am hearing. One more studio audience question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hi, Dr. Drew. You have had many interviews. So, what would you say is your most favorite celebrity interview?

PINSKY: Well, there was this one little girl that fell asleep when I was interviewing her. I wonder if you guys have that. Do you have some

footage of that? Can we play that, perhaps. Let us play that for the audience.

Oh, there she is. Honey boo boo. And, when I tried to interview her, she would have none of it. I have also tasted -- there she, asleep. While I

am trying to interview. So, what are you going to do? I want to thank our live audience. Thank all of you at home for watching. Thank you again.

See you next time. Good night.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

END