Return to Transcripts main page

WOLF

ISIS Takes Control of Major Iraqi City; Troops Forced Out of Ramadi; What's Next After Fall of Ramadi; Amtrak Resumes Full Services; Iraq Deploys Iranian-Backed Militia; Waco Shootout; Boeing Looking into Hacker Claims. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 18, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, noon in Waco, Texas, 8:00 p.m. in Ramadi, Iraq. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We start with major developments in Iraq. The provincial capital of the Anbar Province has now fallen to ISIS fighters. U.S.-led coalition air strikes were certainly not enough to keep the Iraqi military from being forced to flee the city.

Joining us now from the Pentagon is our own Correspondent Barbara Starr, and from Beirut, Lebanon Senior International Correspondent Nick Paton Walsh. Barbara, the deputy White House press secretary, Eric Schulz, downplaying the situation in Ramadi, saying he's confident that the tide will eventually turn back, he says, very soon, in Ramadi. He says the air strikes -- the U.S.-led air strikes will continue. Are you getting that same sort of upbeat assessment, what some are calling spin coming in from Pentagon officials?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Wolf, yes. This is the line that you're hearing this morning across Washington from the administration. Secretary of state, John Kerry, already saying he thinks Ramadi could be retaken very soon by the Iraqi forces. The Pentagon saying it's a setback but it's only a setback for today. That Iraqi forces will move with U.S. assistance to retake the city.

I think many people believe that will be very problematic. This is an urban area. Iraqi forces have fled. The people are under siege. ISIS has moved in IEDs, once again, a mass of fighters, a mass of fire power. Digging them out of an urban area is not something air strikes is going to be able to do. It doesn't work that way. Air strikes don't really work unless -- that way unless you're willing to take civilian casualties and the U.S. and the Iraqis are not.

So, they -- what we have here is exactly what the administration said it didn't think ISIS was capable of doing, massing a large number of its fighters and going in, once again, as an offensive military force. That's what happened in Ramadi and the big unanswered question is, why could the Iraqi security forces not stop them -- Wolf.

BLITZER: They did in Ramadi what they did in Mosul which is flee. What's your analysis, Nick, of what's going on because this looks like a disaster?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is exactly the opposite narrative that the U.S. and coalition have been trying to give about Anbar, that this is going to be the next place the Iraqi forces with the coalition's port (ph) cleaned ISIS out of. Instead, they're trying to explain, well, it's not that important but we're still going to have to retake it. So, a messy narrative.

Five hundred dead, though, in the last weekend's worth of clashes. ISIS really showing their capacity to penetrate right into the town. And, most shockingly, the elite of the elite, frankly, past the golden division of Iraq security forces leaving in a hurry and leaving behind what seems to be quite a lot of their armor and weaponry. Right now, about 15 kilometers to the east, Iraqi tribesmen loyal to the government, along with police, who, they say, had they simply had those days ago, even a fraction of them, they would have been able to affect a change inside Ramadi.

So, as messy response and many asking exactly how we got to this stage where Shia militia will be called upon to try and retake the city. And that's a very complicated task not only because, as Barbara says, ISIS will be dug in pretty fast with a lot of pretty good weaponry but also because they're Shia and this is a predominantly pretty Sunni town. And that sectarian divine that's enflaming the whole region could find a nasty moment there in Ramadi.

But the Iranian defense minister, he's also in Baghdad, too. That's leading to fears this is growing into a wider potential configuration (ph) for Iraq. He's meeting his counterparts to offer Iranian assistance. The U.S., really, not on the sidelines here but I think trying to construct an effective response -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Certainly they're trying to do something. We'll see what happens. All right, Nick, thank you very much. Barbara Starr, we'll get back to you at the Pentagon.

Let's talk a little bit more now about the importance of Ramadi and what has happened including the participation of Iranian-backed Shiite militias, the U.S.-backed coalition air power. Lots at stake right now. Ramadi sits at the west of Baghdad, to the west of Fallujah, which is also under ISIS control. The Anbar Province was the site of the most deadly battles for U.S. troops during the war in Iraq, more than 1,000 American military personnel were killed in the battle for Anbar Province.

Joining us now is our Global Affairs Analyst, retired Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, the former Delta Force commander. And joining us from Toronto, Mubin Shaikh. He's a former jihadist count-terror operative.

Let me start with you, Colonel Reese, to get your quick analysis. Ramadi a city of, what, a half a million people. About 120,000 of them have already fled. It looks like a disaster that's unfolding right now. What's going on?

[13:05:10] LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RETIRED), CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, Wolf, I mean, it is a setback. There is no question. The coalition have been doing some pretty good bombing out there, but you have to be able to follow it up with ground forces to go back and seize that terrain. I think one thing you're going to watch here, over the next couple days, is what the pictures you're seeing are all out of the north and northwest of Ramadi and because the fighting started to get so close in, the Iraqis have -- sometimes they have some problems which a lot of militaries do at some times is making sure the logistics can get up to help out the front line traces of the combat folks.

So, one thing we might see is a pullback of the Iraqi forces which leaves ISIS kind of in the clear in the north and northwest where the coalition air forces can go back in there and really bomb them hard with air strikes and allow the Iraqis to get re-set and go back in and grab that terrain.

BLITZER: Mubin, the ISIS fighters, who have now taken over Ramadi, just as they took over last year Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq, a city of some 2 million people, not only will they collect all the weapons that the Iraqi military abandoned, including armored personnel carriers, artillery, tanks, a lot of sophisticated weaponry that the Iraqi military, like they did in Mosul, now they did in Ramadi, simply abandoned. What are they going to do? Can they -- do these ISIS fighters have the capability to take advantage and actually use these sophisticated, largely U.S.-supplied military equipment?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIVE: Most definitely, Wolf, they do have the capabilities to use the weapons. A lot of the ISIS members are ex-Baathists. They came from the military and the intelligence establishment so that kind of training has already occurred. They've trained individuals in ISIS to have competency in the use of these weapons. And they've done this everywhere else. They've attacked other weapon storages. The training is in place already. They tend to send people who know how to use those weapons as well so that when they're -- when they're obtained they can be even used right away, if need be.

BLITZER: Well, let me ask Colonel Reese. Why is the Iraqi military so awful?

REESE: Wolf, they're not awful. All right. It's just a very difficult thing to sync together and one of the problems we've watched over the year is, they have to get rearmed and refit across the spectrum of their military. They've got a very good federal police force that did a great job up in Tikrit. They're out there now.

But at the end of the day, we have to bring all the combat power and the prime minister today signed a paper to allowing some of the badder (ph) corps and some of the other Shia militias that were very prominent up in Tikrit along with the federal police in the seventh division. They'll come out there and they'll help. I think this is good because, at the end of the day, the Iraqis -- it's not about Sunni and Shia. It's about Iraqi nationalists. And, right now, they have a common enemy and they want to defeat Daesh, ISIS out there in al Anbar. BLITZER: A final question to you on the U.S. Delta force operation,

the special operations force that went into Syria and killed Abu Sayyaf, described as the chief financial officer of ISIS. How big of a deal do you believe this is?

SHAIKH: Well, it's a, you know, mid-sized deal, I guess. I mean, the individual will be replaced, of course. But, on one side, a lot of documentation has been obtained in the raid. We'll see what kind of intelligence comes out of the wife of the individual. But you know what? There are far many more waiting in the wings. So, one down and many more to go.

BLITZER: Mubin Shaikh, thanks very much. James Reese. Guys, we're going to continue our reporting on what's going on. Major, major developments. And to our viewers out there, don't miss BLINDSIDED: HOW ISIS SHOOK THE WORLD that Fareed Zakaria reports. That airs tonight 9:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN.

Up next, more on the fall of Ramadi is raising serious concerns about the fight against ISIS, the future of Iraq as a country. The role of Iran, Shia versus Sunni tensions, we're going to get special insight and analyst on that.

And later, other news we're following here in the United States, Amtrak restoring full service out of Philadelphia following last week's derailment. We'll take a closer look at new safety measures that they're scrambling to put in place over the next several days.

[13:09:34]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The fall of a key Iraqi city to ISIS further complicates the efforts to defeat the terrorist group. Ramadi is only about 70 miles or so west of Baghdad as the capital of Iraq's hugely important Anbar Province. The loss of the city raising serious strategic and political concerns.

Let's get some more analysis on what's going on. Joining us now, the former assistant secretary of state, James Rubin, and the former Democratic Congresswoman, Jane Harman. She's currently director, president and CEO of the Wilson Center for Scholars here in Washington. How much of a setback, Jane, is this, the loss of ISIS -- the loss of Ramadi to ISIS right now?

JANE HARMAN, DIRECTOR, PRESIDENT AND CEO, WILSON CENTER: Well, I think it's -- in political terms which is what I assume you are asking me, Wolf, it's a big deal. And I can't imagine if I were a moderate Sunni, living in Iraq right now, why I would want to fight for Iraq. And what's wrong with this picture is these Shiite militias are, basically, Iranian-inspired militias. And if they're going to take over Sunni enclaves in Iraq, the message is that we're just repeating what the Maliki administration did wrong. A body is not an improvement. And I think this goes downhill fast.

BLITZER: There's a lot of concern, Jamie, the secretary of state John Kerry insisting he's, quote, "absolutely confident the tide will turn against ISIS in Ramadi." Is that kind of confidence, at least the public bluster, justified?

JAMES RUBIN, FORMER U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it's not justified based on the current alignment of forces that we have facing ISIS right now. It would be justified if we took a rather modest step forward. The reason the air power can't work is because it can't be coordinated with anyone on the ground. If the United States would deploy some of the special forces that were so effective in Syria for short periods of time to coordinate with its close air support and aircraft, then the American air power would have a far greater ability to destroy the ISIS forces.

If we're going to sit back and have Shiite militias do the fighting, then it's not going to go very well for a while. Secretary Kerry will be right, of course, over time if the entire Shiite military force is brought to bear on Ramadi, they will win.

[13:15:14] But what we don't want to see is a situation where the Iraq government is reliant solely on Shiite militias, meaning so reliant on Iran.

BLITZER: Yes, and because you know, Jane, the Iraqi Sunnis, and they feel oppressed by the majority Shiites in Iraq, let's not talk about the Kurds for the time being, but the Iraqi Sunnis in Anbar and elsewhere, will be very, very angry if the central Baghdad government brings in the these paramilitary Iranian backed Shiite forces to do the work for the Iraqi military. That potentially could be a huge disaster and set the scene for the disintegration of Iraq as the country we know.

HARMAN: I think we have to contemplate that, Wolf. I don't think this is a time for false cheerleading. And I'm not accusing Secretary Kerry of anything. He's tried his hardest to make the Abadi administration succeed, but it is not succeeding. The vice president, Joe Biden, recommended five or so years ago that - or more, maybe longer, that Iraq maybe should break into different parts according to the tribal affinities. I mean Sunni, Shia and Kurd and have a confederation government. Maybe we should be thinking about that because I'm afraid, and I think Jamie was exactly right, that if the moderate Sunnis in Iraq give up and they seem to be giving up, that this will - this country, no matter what Abadi tries to do and what we try do, will be overrun by Iran. I'm not confused about the right answer to the 2003 vote that I made, if I knew now what I had - if I knew then what I know now, I would have voted no.

BLITZER: Yes, so that's not even a question mark for you, Jane.

HARMAN: No.

BLITZER: If your - so the whole Iraq War, and you voted in favor of that resolution, from your perspective, that whole Iraq War turned out to be a mistake?

HARMAN: Colossal mistake. I voted for it because I believed the intelligence. The intelligence was wrong. My vote was wrong. And our second big mistake, by the way, was empowering Maliki to lead Iraq forward after we had sacrificed so much in terms of blood and treasure to get to a place with the surge, with the coined (ph) strategy where we thought Iraq could take off. Maliki was a disaster and Abadi is trying harder, has better instincts, but he's unable to push this giant rock up this giant hill fast enough, I think, to save cities like Ramadi. And let's not pretend that we can see the same movie over again and have it come out differently. That's not going to work.

BLITZER: Very quickly, Jamie, do you agree the war in Iraq was a mistake?

RUBIN: Well, clearly the devastating consequences of the war in Iraq far outweigh the advantage, which is the end of Saddam Hussein. But the great irony, Wolf, is that at the time that Dick Cheney was promoting the war, he argued that there were terrorists in Iraq. That Iraq was supporting terrorist organizations and that that's why we should go into Iraq. The great tragic irony is that a decade later, after billions if not trillions of dollars and thousands of Americans, there really are terrorist organizations in Iraq today. And now, having committed so much force and so many lives and so many billions of dollars, we're not prepared to take a few steps to defeat that force that poses a direct threat to the United States. Now Iraq poses a threat. It didn't 10 years ago and it's a shame that the politics, the pendulum of our political system, has swung so far to the other direction that our president and others aren't prepared to take some modest steps to defeat a genuine threat, not the fake threat, that was exaggerated 10 years ago.

BLITZER: Jamie Rubin, thanks very much. Jane Harman, thanks to you as well.

We're going to continue our special coverage, what's going on with ISIS and Ramadi. But there's other news we're following here in the United States. Get this, 170 bikers in Waco, Texas, now facing capital murder and organized crime charges following a deadly brawl outside a popular restaurant. A former ATF agent standing by to join us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:22:35] BLITZER: A popular sports bar and restaurant in Waco, Texas, is shut down today. Its liquor license suspended, its franchise agreement, revoked after a horrific fight there between rival biker gangs left nine people dead, 17 hospitalized and 170 people in jail. People described the scene afterward as gruesome. Law enforcement had been tipped off there might be some trouble and they were already present, but the battle that erupted was far more brutal and violent than officers expected. Moments ago, police detailed the charges against those arrested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE: Those individuals are being charged with engaging in organized crime, in reference to the shooting at Twin Peaks, which is a capital murder. It's a capital murder because of the number of victims that were killed in one episode here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The tragedy brought this swift response from the Twin Peaks corporate office. And I'll read it to you. "Unfortunately, the management team of the franchise restaurant in Waco chose to ignore the warnings and advice from both the police and our company and did not uphold the high security standards we have in place to ensure everyone is safe at our restaurants. We will not tolerate the actions of this relatively new franchisee and are revoking their franchise agreement immediately."

With us via Skype is security expert, former ATF agent Matthew Horace. He's senior vice president with FJC Security Service.

Matthew, are you surprised by what happened?

MATTHEW HORACE, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, FJC SECURITY SERVICES: Wolf, I'm not surprised at all. Whenever you get this many armed criminals in one place at one time, this is what you have the potential to happen. They do it year-round at different places around the country. Law enforcement follows these organizations from an intelligence and criminal perspective and we're very, very, very fortunate that this wasn't much worse than it was.

BLITZER: But a lot of people are dead. Well, here's the question, what should have been done to prevent this massacre?

HORACE: Well, I'm quite sure that law enforcement had intelligence about the event and we won't know immediately - we will know at some point down the line if law enforcement officers were on-site, meaning undercover or just from an intelligence capacity. So there are any number of things that could have been done but I can assure you - I can assure you this, with the OMOs, Outlaw Motorcycle Organizations, contempt for law enforcement, we're very fortunate on the heels of police week and police month that there wasn't more gun battle and that law enforcement officers weren't hurt or killed in this interaction.

[13:25:05] BLITZER: Because there are these biker gangs, as you know well, all over the place, all over the United States. And lessons have to be learned from what this - this terrible situation in Waco, Texas. Walk us through, looking forward, what some of those lessons are?

HORACE: Well, I think there needs to be, you know, the police chief said they wanted a very visible command presence. Again, when you have this many armed criminals at one place, you run the risk that this will happen. But obviously law enforcement has to work within the constraints that they have and continue to investigate them.

I can tell you from my experience at ATF, these groups are very violent and they don't get together for any other reason than to talk about criminal enterprises and things that they do. And the one thing that's for sure, the only people that they hate more than each other when these things happen are the police. We have to take the threats credibly, we have to investigate them very vigorously. I know throughout my career I've seen cases like this investigated from an undercover capacity trying to determine where these groups buy their firearms, how they get their firearms. But, listen, 180 arrests and 100 firearms, there are over 300 OMOs throughout the United States. Do the math. The overwhelming majority of them carry guns when they commit their crimes.

BLITZER: This is a serious, serious development and, you're absolutely right, Matthew, we've got to learn some lessons and make sure it doesn't happen again. Matthew Horace, former ATF agent, joining us. Appreciate it very much.

HORACE: Thank you.

BLITZER: Other news we're following, a plane passenger claims he hacked into the flight controls in mid-flight. The FBI now investigating. One airline says it is not possible though. We'll take a closer look at whether passengers are really at risk from hackers on board.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from Washington.

Boeing Airlines disputing sensational allegations that a passenger gained access to the plane's controls during a flight. According to federal court documents, Chris Roberts, a cybersecurity consultant based in Denver, claims he was able to hack into in-flight entertainment systems on up to 20 flights and from there get to other critical plane functions. But Boeing says it's not possible because the flight controls are isolated from the entertainment electronics. Still, the FBI says it's investigating after Roberts sent out disturbing tweets at a recent flight. Journalist Kim Zetter interviewed Roberts, wrote an important, in-depth article for "Wired" magazine. She's joining us. She's also the author of "Countdown to Zero Day." Also joining us, CNN safety analyst, former FAA safety inspector David Soucie.

So, what exactly has Roberts claimed to be - claimed to have done, Kim?

[13:29:55] KIM ZETTER, SENIOR REPORTER, WIRED.COM: Well, according to the FBI affidavit, he told the FBI back in February that he connected his laptop to a network box below the passenger seat and used a default password to get onto the entertainment fight - the in-flight entertainment system.