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Terrorism Fears; Jeb Bush on Iraq War; Drone Danger. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired May 14, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:12] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Developing outside the White House here just in the last half-hour, a street on the north side of the White House has reopened, but police shut it down entirely after this man attempted to fly this drone. Here's the photo of it. We're seeing this for the first time, this thing. Tried to fly this over the fence of the White House. You don't want to try to do that.

Pamela Brown, CNN justice correspondent, tell me, what exactly is this thing, and what was this man trying to do?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Brooke, you're not allowed to fly drones in D.C., let alone around the White House.

BALDWIN: No.

BROWN: That is a restricted airspace. What we can tell you here, though, and we see a picture of this drone, the small UAV that was used in this case. The Secret Service just releasing this statement, Brooke, basically saying that Secret Service Uniformed Division officers saw this man flying the UAV, it says, below 100 feet in altitude.

And the individual, it then goes to say, was detained by Secret Service and instructed to land the small UAV. The statement says that he did comply, Brooke, and the small UAV was recovered in Lafayette Park. Of course, that UAV was swept by Secret Service and then subsequently declared safe by the Metropolitan Police Department.

And we now know that that individual was turned over to the custody of the U.S. Park Police. But, Brooke, this is the second time just in a few months where a drone has been near the White House. We know one landed on the White House lawn back in January. It turns out that there was a malfunction with the drone and the operator was not charged in that case. It was a government employee.

But this is something the National Security Council, the Department of Justice, the FAA are all trying to grapple with, how to provide security, how to protect places like the White House from drones, from people who may be bad actors. And in this case, we don't know what the situation is. We're waiting to find out from the D.C. U.S. attorney's office. But it raises a lot of questions and highlights the issue, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You just don't do this. And you don't do this a stone's throw especially from the White House. Pamela Brown, thank you so much for that update.

And now let's go to what we know today, new details in this deadly train derailment and questions still about what this man was doing in those moments and seconds leading up to the crash. He's 32-year-old engineer Brandon Bostian. And he claims he can't remember a thing. And authorities, including Bostian's lawyer, don't even seem to agree on whether the train's driver is cooperating with investigators.

We know he handed over his cell phone and a blood sample. And now questions remain about his willingness to talk. His lawyer says Bostian spoke to police for hours, but it's a different tale from police officers, who tell CNN that Bostian refused to answer questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL NUTTER (D), MAYOR OF PHILADELPHIA: The engineer was injured. Again, I want to remind you, the engineer, of course, was in the first train car, the engine component. That car, we believe, actually tumbled over and over and over numerous times, and the engineer survived, taken out of the vehicle, went to a hospital, received treatment, was interviewed by the police department.

And I believe it was a pretty short interview, in which he apparently indicated that he did not want to be interviewed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So you just heard Mayor Michael Nutter say it, that Bostian, the engineer here, this is the person who actually drives the twain, was injured, as well as at least 200 other people. We also have learned today that eight people have died.

Joining me now, CNN's Erin McLaughlin.

And, Erin, can you tell me about this eighth individual?

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brooke. Some grim news here in Philadelphia. We now have learned the identity of the eighth victim. He's been identified by his family as 45-year-old Bob Gildersleeve.

Now, his family had been sick with worry. They reported him missing following the crash. His wife had said she dropped him off at a train -- the train station in Baltimore. That was the last time she saw him, and now this grim news that his body has been discovered. The family, his wife releasing the following statement, saying: "He has been my best friend for 29 years, and we just celebrated our 18th wedding anniversary and Mother's Day on Sunday. He is a remarkable dad to our daughter Ryan and son Marc."

[15:05:01] The statement goes on to describe him as funny, sarcastic, the kind of

individual who lights up any room with his presence. Now, we understand that his body was found in the wreckage this morning around 8:00 a.m. Cadaver dogs had been called to the first car, which had been badly mangled. It was in that wreckage that they found his remains. They actually had to pry open the wreckage with hydraulics.

And they then brought it to the medical examiner's office. And now we're learning his identity from his family -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: So, eight lives lost, so many people injured. Just hearing all these different stories of how people were -- you know, luggage flung into them or metal seats uprooted or people found hanging upside down. You know, I know we have been hearing a lot from hospital officials, Erin. Just let me follow up with those injured.

I know eight people are still in critical condition, some of whom still have had surgeries to endure. What can you tell me about those people who have been injured here?

MCLAUGHLIN: Now, we're still waiting for an update on their condition. We now understand from authorities that all 243 people though that they believed to have been on board that Amtrak train have been accounted for.

Here, you could see behind me is the crash site. They have been working all day to clear it up. We have seen it moved, pulled one of the final cars away earlier this morning, one of the final cars that we could actually see. And you can see cranes there at work. They have been inspecting the tracks.

Right now, authorities are saying they're trying to prepare this corridor for train traffic. They're hoping that, at the very minimum, a limited service will be resumed on Monday, full service possibly Monday or Tuesday -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right. Erin McLaughlin in Philadelphia, Erin, thank you so much.

Coming up next, some concerning news in the fight against terrorists, what British intelligence is now revealing about potential terror suspects who leave the war zone in Syria and return to the U.K.

And just a short time ago, Jeb Bush took another crack at the question, was the Iraq War a mistake? We have his answer for you straight ahead here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:11:36]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Today, we learned Scotland Yard is releasing some troubling new numbers in the fight against terrorism. Britain's top counterterrorism officer says more than 700 potential terror suspects have traveled from the U.K. to Syria. Of those, nearly half have returned and are now considered to be of -- quote, unquote -- "specific concern."

Scotland Yard is also warning these suspected terrorists are being arrested in Britain at a rate of almost one every single day.

So I have got Buck Sexton with me. He's a former CIA counterterrorism analyst and with us here now officially at CNN.

Here's the thing I think it's important to point out to people. It's not illegal to travel to Syria, right? So if you're going from the U.K., you hop over to Syria for whatever reason you have, at what point does the U.K. or Scotland Yard sort of say, hmm, we need to follow this guy, and we especially need to follow him upon return home?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's an additional level of complication, because it's certainly not illegal to travel to Turkey, one of the biggest tourist destinations in the world.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Turkey to Syria, yes.

SEXTON: Right. No, right, but so -- because, generally, generally speaking, they're not even -- there's no evidence that they're traveling to Syria, per se.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SEXTON: They will be traveling to a regional country. So, you clearly can't stop somebody for that.

In this country, what we have seen in some cases is individuals who are very loud about their intention to join the Islamic State and on social media or elsewhere, and the FBI perhaps catches wind of that. And then that step to go to the airport can be enough to give material support to a terrorist organization.

Absent that, just the travel, of course, is not illegal. So all you're talking about now is looking at essentially a profile of likely Islamic State joiners, essentially, people that might decide based upon where they're going and some other factors to be a part of this. It's very hard to track them once they leave, of course, the U.K. You don't know what they're doing necessarily inside of Syria. Very hard to find them there.

BALDWIN: We don't know. Have no idea.

SEXTON: You don't know.

BALDWIN: Training, studying under whoever, they don't know.

SEXTON: And then there's the additional level of even those who come back -- and we see it's a very troubling number, a large number. And it's also different age groups and different sorts of parts of... (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We will get to that in a minute.

SEXTON: Right. But you don't know. When they come back, you have to be able to prove in a court that they did something illegal. Right? It's not even just the suspicion of it looks like this is somebody who might have been fighting with ISIS. If you don't have evidence to put into a court of law, you can't hold them, you can't detain them, you can't do anything, except maybe keep them out of the country, which is something I know the U.K. is considering with some of these returnees.

BALDWIN: To your point, we looked at some numbers here, a stat from Britain's top counterterrorism officer. He says the new stats indicate more than one in 10 of those arrested on suspicion of terror- related crimes in 2014-2015 were female, while 17 percent were under the age of 20.

SEXTON: This goes to the clarion call from the Islamic State that they want people to join a utopian jihadist society, essentially. They're not just saying, we want fighters. They're saying, we want engineers, we want medics, we want women to marry the fighters. We want an entire society to essentially transplant itself from elsewhere in the world and join this burgeoning Islamic State.

Now, what we have seen, of course, are individuals who go and do that in many cases find out that this is a nightmarish totalitarian hellhole and they want to get out of there. It's not what they were promised or it's not what they thought they were joining . But that's the initial pitch, that they're joining this perfect Islamist jihadist society.

And that's why you have people all the way down to we have seen 15- year-olds reportedly going to join the Islamic State, 15-year-old girls actually going to join.

BALDWIN: Lured by the ISIS brand, right?

SEXTON: Right. They think that they're going to be a part of this grandiose project of caliphate-building. And, like I said, it's literally supposed to be the perfect society. And so people get there, they realize what this actually is, what's going on.

[15:15:03]

Some of them either die quickly if they try to fight against either Assad or Iraqi forces or wherever they're deployed. Others, though, they just recognize that this is a completely dysfunctional state, if you want to call it that. They're not able to operate services the way that even a Third World country would be able to in many cases.

And on top of that, you have amputations and the horrific application of Sharia law, which tends to, for a lot of people, be a reason to leave. But then the question becomes, what do you do with the disaffected who want to leave the Islamic State, which is what we're seeing in at least some cases, and how would you separate out the disaffected out from the individuals who are just coming back and maybe they have decided, I'm more useful to ISIS if I strike in my home country? Separating those two things out is very hard, no matter what intel agency you're talking about.

BALDWIN: As I'm listening to you, I was also getting information here. And I'm going to turn and do this off camera. Thank you very much, Lindsey (ph).

I just got handed a piece of paper. As we're talking about ISIS, and we were discussing earlier on this week -- and, granted, CNN cannot independently confirm this, but talking about the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and reports that he was severely injured in March.

Just got this in, so we're just going to do this here on the fly. I want you to react to it. ISIS' media arm -- yes, they have a media arm -- has released an Arabic audio statement from ISIS' leader, al- Baghdadi. We're working on translating it.

But to -- just react to the significance that, you know, this man -- and, again, remember also that Department of State, I believe it was last week, put the bounty on four very senior ISIS leaders' heads. The fact that he apparently has spoken and released audio via this media arm of ISIS tells you what?

SEXTON: Well, there are oftentimes reports in these sorts of insurgency -- insurgency situations of the leader, whoever it may be, being killed and they turn out to not be true. Especially, we're talking about strikes against terrorists. This has been the case.

And then actually if you look at a historical parallel, Abu Musab al Zarqawi, when he was killed, the Iraqi insurgency actually got worse. So, the idea that if you strike at the head of the snake, you're necessary going to deal with underlying violent situation, I don't think that that -- I think the history would actually point in the other direction in many cases. So, you can't really be sure.

And here, this is obviously ISIS trying to say, yes, yes, you thought you got him, but you didn't.

BALDWIN: But you didn't.

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: Keep dreaming, essentially. It looks like it's unlikely we got him in this case.

BALDWIN: Right.

SEXTON: Eventually, we probably will. The coalition probably will get him. The life span of an al Qaeda leader tends not to be very long. But getting the leadership doesn't deal with the underlying problem. It doesn't deal with the philosophy. There are plenty of fighters who will replace him if we do get him.

BALDWIN: Al Qaeda or, in this case, the leader of ISIS. Buck Sexton, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Coming up next here, we have to talk about Jeb Bush, Jeb Bush having a

hard time escaping the legacy of his brother. He was confronted after -- at a town hall event by someone who blamed President George W. Bush for helping create the terror group ISIS, what his response was and what he recently said here in response to going into Iraq in the early 2000s. We have that for you.

Also, an update on the donations that ABC News anchor George Stephanopoulos apparently has made to the Clinton Foundation. We have got some news. Our senior media correspondent Brian Stelter will have that information coming up next.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:20]

BALDWIN: Got some breaking news now here regarding donations that ABC News anchor George Stephanopoulos has admitted to making to the Clinton Foundation.

I have got CNN senior media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES" Brian Stelter with me.

I think we should back up and explain all of this. But also you tell me. You just got off the phone with George Stephanopoulos.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this has really evolved quite a lot in the last six hours or so.

BALDWIN: Happened quickly.

STELTER: So, I will try to explain what the issue at hand is.

BALDWIN: Yes.

STELTER: Journalists generally do not give money to political candidates or campaigns, but the Clinton Foundation is kind of one of a kind. It's a charitable organization...

BALDWIN: Charitable organization.

STELTER: ... but run by a former president and a possible future president, a candidate for president. So it is something that is very unique.

And it was discovered by reporters overnight apparently and then revealed this morning that Stephanopoulos had donated $25,000 last year and $25,000 the year before that to the foundation. This raised a lot of eyebrows. So, immediately, Stephanopoulos apologized, and ABC said, he made a mistake, but we're going to stand by him. It's OK.

You know, Stephanopoulos, one of the biggest stars on all of television. BALDWIN: Huge.

STELTER: And, of course, 20 years ago, he was one of the Bill Clinton's closest advisers. So Republicans, some conservatives have always been somewhat skeptical of him, always wondered if he could be fair when covering politics.

But he's done a lot to earn people's respect and trust. He is one of the most well-respected anchors at ABC, also one of the best paid. So, he donates millions of dollars to charities. He happens to give to the Clinton Foundation as well.

BALDWIN: So he's donated -- you mentioned the two times. So, he's discovered a third time.

STELTER: And then he discovered a third. So, that's what happened in the last hour or so. He came out and said, actually, I also gave another time back in 2012. I forgot about it, but it's in the records. So, actually, it's a grand total of $75,000, which is not a small amount of money.

BALDWIN: Right.

STELTER: People are automatically and immediately wondering, was this some sort of quid pro quo? Do you give this money to get access to the Clintons? Stephanopoulos just told me absolutely not.

In fact, I think we can put on screen what he just said to me. He said: "I gave the donations for all the right reasons, for the best of intentions, to support causes I believe in."

BALDWIN: There you go.

STELTER: "In retrospect, though, I realized," and he went on to say, "I should have gone above and beyond that just to avoid anything that would even raise any possible appearance of a conflict."

In other words, he's saying he should have disclosed this, he shouldn't have done this. And then he concluded by saying: "That's why it was a mistake and that's why I'm sorry to our viewers and to my colleagues."

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: I think he's actually going to address this on air on Sunday.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: On Sunday. Obviously, he covers politics intensely. How will this affect covering, I don't know, whether it's moderating debates?

STELTER: Right.

Well, that was the first question this morning. Can he moderate a Republican presidential primary debate? Behind the scenes, there was immediate pressure from some candidates and some campaigns saying, no, he cannot be on stage moderating a debate. We saw Rand Paul say that earlier today. And we actually saw Mike Lee's communication director, Senator Mike Lee's communications director, say, we're not going to put Mike Lee on ABC until Stephanopoulos recuses himself from all campaign coverage.

[15:25:05]

BALDWIN: OK.

STELTER: Stephanopoulos is going halfway here. He's told me in the last few minutes he will not moderate ABC's February presidential primary debate.

BALDWIN: OK.

STELTER: He said to me, I just don't want to be a distraction, so I'm not going to moderate that debate.

But he said, I am going to continue to cover the campaign. And that now becomes this issue that's out there among some Republican presidential candidates. They may or may not want to play ball with ABC if Stephanopoulos is seen as being tainted.

BALDWIN: All right.

STELTER: This just goes to show, you know, journalists are held to a very high standard. Even someone who believes he's doing the right thing by donating to charity can sometimes find himself in a world of trouble.

BALDWIN: Brian Stelter, thank you so much for going directly to him and getting his response to all this. I appreciate it.

STELTER: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Let's stay on politics of a different kind here and let's talk about Jeb Bush. Jeb Bush has given his most direct answer yet since backpedaling on whether the U.S. should have invaded Iraq when his brother was president.

I want you to listen to what he told reporters today. This was at a town hall in Tempe, Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: So here's the deal. If we're all supposed to answer hypothetical questions, knowing what we know now, what would you have done, I would have not engaged, I would not have gone into Iraq.

That's not to say that the world is safer because Saddam Hussein is gone. It is significantly safer. That's not to say that there was a courageous effort to bring about a surge that created stability in Iraq. All of that is true. And that's not to say that the men and women that have served in uniform and many others that went to Iraq to serve did so -- they did so certainly honorably.

But we have answered the question now. So now, going forward, what's the role of America going forward?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All week long, the likely 2016 presidential hopeful had not been able to escape those questions about the war his brother green- lighted in 2003.

So our chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, is here with me now to sort of really walk through, you know, what he said on FOX News Channel just a couple days ago and how that has, you know, morphed into what we saw today, although, when I was talking to Wolf about this last hour, to be precise, when he was first talking about it, he was referencing had he had the intelligence he had then vs. what we all know now.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: At the time, right. Right.

This all stems from him saying that he misinterpreted or misheard the question that Megyn Kelly of FOX was asking, which was very clearly, knowing what you know now, would you have invaded Iraq?

BALDWIN: Misheard. Right.

BASH: The way you answered it -- and you can tell if you look at the entirety of his answer, that was clearly what he was thinking that she -- answered.

But the issue at this point is that this is day four, because the interview aired on Monday. And he's still trying to explain what his position is. And if it were another candidate whose name is not Bush, or a potential candidate, obviously it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But the question, of course, is why, because he is George W. Bush's brother and this issue marred his legacy, wasn't he better prepared for -- he should have gotten...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Why wasn't he? Because this would have been like the top of the list for, and here's my answer?

BASH: And I actually just hung up the phone with a Bush adviser.

BALDWIN: OK.

BASH: I was asking that very question. And the answer is before the Megyn Kelly interview, they did do prep.

BALDWIN: They did.

BASH: And he was ready to give an answer, and because he thought he mis -- he heard the question in a way that wasn't really asked, he fumbled. And that's just the bottom line. And what was interesting about what you just played today is that he

didn't even wait for a question today. They are so sort of ensconced in this mixed-message issue that they have been dealing with every single day this week that he knows he has to try to clean it up, which is why he said what he said today.

Yesterday and today, what he said is that he, as the governor of Florida, when he was having to deal with the families of fallen soldiers and military men and women, it was hard for him and that he didn't want to have to sort of have them die in vain, which is the issue. The other thing that he said today, which perhaps is even as much, if not more human, is that it is his brother.

And it's -- basically, it's hard for him to throw his brother under the bus. Now, those weren't the exact words that he used, but he did say, in a response to a question by our own Maeve Reston, who is out in Arizona, I don't go out of my way to disagree with my brother, I'm loyal to him.

And that really does kind of speak to a bigger issue for him.

BALDWIN: What about the fact that, you know, on the flip side, just giving Jeb Bush credit in the sense that he's put himself out there, I mean, people, media, students, 19-year-old student asking a question of him vs. being in a more controlled setting?

I know you had referenced once before even just Governor Scott Walker, because he wasn't really answering questions on foreign policy. I think it was in London. They said no media when he's going to Israel. Right?

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: No one was with him. No one was allowed. He just got back, and there was no media allowed.

Look, I think that that is an important point. We do so much, you know, kind of holding politicians' feet to the fire.

BALDWIN: Focusing on missteps.

BASH: Focusing on missteps, and really complaining when there's no access.

We do have, we, as reporters, and even voters out there, have a lot of access to Jeb Bush, the not-yet presidential candidate. I mean, even today, he had a meeting with reporters. He was answering questions from voters. Same goes for yesterday and the day before. He's been doing it for months and months and months, and kind of hasn't really stepped in it the way he did this week.