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Lubitz Tested Plan Earlier the Same Day; Texas Gunman Tweeted with Terrorists; Interview with Rep. Elijah Cummings; Did State's Attorney Overcharge Officers?. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired May 6, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[07:00:14] FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He waited for the captain to leave the cockpit.

And I have the report -- this initial report in front of me right now. And it says at seven hours and 19 minutes there is the noise of the cockpit door opening then closing. And this means that the captain has left the cockpit.

Then we get to the really interesting part. It says that at seven hours, 20 minutes and 50 seconds, the selected altitude decreased to 100 feet for three seconds and then increased to the maximum value of 49,000 feet and stabilized again at 35,000 feet. So a major dip in altitude for a very short time, followed again by a major spike in altitude. And then leveling out, which is of course, one of the things that leads the investigators to believe that very possibly this was a significant event later in the doomed flight.

And then they come to the conclusion -- these are the initial findings of this report. They say, "Several altitude selections towards 100 feet were recorded during descent on the flight that preceded the accident flight while the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit."

So this scenario is exactly the same one as the one on the doomed flight. It looks very, very much like a practice run.

And, of course, all of this raises major questions about the thing that we've been talking about since all of this happened: how premeditated was all this, how meticulously planned all this? Because we have to keep in mind this was a man with psychological problems who was trying to cover them up. This is a man who had looked up ways to commit suicide. And this is a man who also looked up the locking mechanism of the cockpit door preceding all this. It seems as though there was a lot more planning that went into this than we've previously known, guys.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN: OK, Fred, if you stick around with us, that would be great, because we also want to bring in CNN's aviation analyst, Miles O'Brien, to analyze all this for us.

Miles, is there any other way to interpret this? I mean, all of the facts Fred that just gave us about what the altitude monitor was showing, how else can you see it than this was a dry run?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: It was a dry run, there's no question, Alisyn. The captain leaves the cockpit, and the co-pilot spends a lot of time playing with the selection knob on the autopilot for altitude.

We want to clarify that the altitude was not changing in the way the selection was indicated. It was still going down in a steady state. Air traffic controllers and, of course, the captain in the back of the plane would have noticed if the plane had been dipping and flying in such a manner.

But on the Airbus, you have a computer system that tends to overrule what the pilot wants to do if it's outside the boundaries of acceptability for the aircraft and safety. And so this would be a good way to test to where the alarm bells might go off so that you can set the selection for the intent, which of course, we all know what happened.

CAMEROTA: But, Miles, I want to stick with that for a second. So if this computer system overrules something that's an anomaly, why wasn't it triggering?

O'BRIEN: Well, I think he was trying to figure out the outer bounds of what the computer would allow, using the laws of flight that were in play.

So, you know, if you make it too steep or too fast, the computer would overrule him. He was trying to see if I set it for 100 feet, and it's a descent of a certain rate, will it allow me to do that? And I think that's what he discovered in that brief dry run.

CAMEROTA: Fred, can we pull up that full screen that you just showed us? The one that showed what was happening at 7 hours, 20 minutes, 50 seconds. And that showed right there -- we have it on our screen now -- the selected altitude decreased to 100 feet for three seconds.

Again, as Miles said, the plane didn't decrease to that, but the selection decreased to that. And then it increased to the maximum value of 49,000 feet, and it stabilized again at 35,000 feet. Surely, that would have set off some sort of alarm bells, not literally, but some sort of notice by the air traffic controllers.

Do we have any sense, Fred -- I know this report just came out in the last hour. Do we have any comment from them yet?

PLEITGEN: That's a really interesting question. Because of course, what Miles was talking about was him basically trying to trick the airplane and seeing what the airplane would allow him to do. But the big question is would air traffic control have noticed?

And the interesting part about all this is that all of this occurred, as we said, while the pilot was not -- the captain was not in the cockpit. But also during the time that apparently the plane was already going into its final descent. Because shortly before bringing the plane down, he was already asked to descend from 37,000 feet to 35,000 feet. And during the time that he kept resetting the altitude to 100 feet was also a time that he was already bringing the airplane down to -- I think it was 25,000 feet that the air traffic controllers let him go to.

[07:05:07] There's no indication in reports that, during the preceding flight, that this raised any sort of alarm bells with air traffic control. It's very hard to say whether or not they noticed, whether or not they had the technical capabilities to notice the dips that were going on.

And again, we also have to keep in mind -- and I'm sure Miles can speak more to this -- is that a lot of these altitude changes that he was doing, the ones that seem really irrational, the ones that go from 100 feet to 49,000 feet, they only happened for a couple of seconds. The first dip to 100 feet, where he set it to 100 feet was only for three seconds.

So the question is, was he trying to find ways to fool air traffic control, as well? Or at least try to keep them off his back for as long as possible?

CAMEROTA: So, Miles, would air traffic controllers noticed that something was amiss?

O'BRIEN: No. Because what you see here is the selection button doing this and the plane doing a steady descent, which -- and in the term of art in aviation is busted altitude. They didn't bust altitude. They did exactly what controllers said for them to do. The aircraft performed exactly. And on the radar screen, the controller would have no idea that he was monkeying around with the knob in this manner. So it didn't change the rate of descent or the actual floor of where the plane went.

What it would have done is given someone who is doing it some indication as to whether the Airbus would have disengaged the autopilot, an alarm system would have overruled or some other system and the plane would have overruled what the pilot was doing.

CAMEROTA: Well, that's helpful, Miles. So in other words, that explains why he was allowed to then get on another flight and pilot that flight, because otherwise, would they have prevented him from getting back on board?

O'BRIEN: This would have been a big incident if there had been a divergence of altitude that matched the selection on the autopilot. That would have been a big deal. We would have been talking about it, regardless of the crash. How could that have happened? And certainly, he would have been pulled off the line.

CAMEROTA: All right. Miles, Fred, thanks so much. We'll be analyzing much more in this bombshell report that has just come out this morning. Thanks so much.

Let's get over to Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right. To Sunday's attack outside a cartoon contest in Texas now. Is there a broader plot to uncover? That's the question for intelligence officials following revelations one of the gunmen was in contact with an ISIS recruiter and a terrorist from al-Shabaab. We get the latest now from CNN's Kyung Lah. She's live in the

gunmen's hometown of Phoenix, Arizona.

Kyung, good morning.

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

The investigation now trying to focus on the accomplices trying to widen this dragnet. What we have learned from investigators here is that the apartment was relatively barren.

The apartment complex behind me that the two men lived in. There was a hard drive recovered, and they are analyzing that hard drive.

But the investigators already know that one of the gunmen, Elton Simpson, was in communication with a known ISIS fighter, that recruiter you were mentioning. He was having public exchanges on Twitter. That ISIS fighter retweeting one of Simpson's tweets.

So the focus now is looking at social media. How close were these two men? At this point, investigators believe that it may be shy of being directed, that the two men may not have been directed, but certainly, they were more than just inspired -- Chris.

CUOMO: Kyung, thanks for digging.

Let's bring in CNN national security commentator and the former chair of the U.S. House Intelligence Committee Mr. Mike Rogers.

Mike, thank you for joining us. We want to know whether or not they were connected, but does it really matter? Inspired versus directed, the end result is the same, no?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. And this is exactly what ISIS has been trying to do with its public statements, with its social media networks by trying to push both individuals to do it on their own and individuals to have conversations with them to do these types of terrorist attacks.

CUOMO: Now, the idea that ISIS takes credit for something that looks like an abject failure, looks like a success of great police work taking these guys out before they could do anything. But what does that mean about what they consider success?

ROGERS: Absolutely. Any disruptive act, Chris, I mean any disruptive act -- if it's a mall that shuts down commerce, if it's an event like this that draws all of this attention and they did wound a security officer, it puts a little fear in the hearts and souls of people all over the country, this is a place in Texas. I think that's exactly what they're trying to accomplish.

So they'd like to have more deaths and casualties for the chaos and the marketing, but this is just fine for them. And it shows it gives them credibility with other jihadists that their activities are just about the sacrilegious effort of protecting the Prophet Mohammed. That is, in addition, a gain for them when they're trying to recruit people to jihad.

CUOMO: A common concern would be is this proof that we are not good enough at catching bad guys before they act?

ROGERS: It is really difficult. It's very difficult. And, you know, the Patriot Act is getting ready to come up here. And the discussion is not even to allow people to track those phone calls coming from overseas into the United States. So we're making it more difficult for law enforcement to try to catch these people and follow these types of communications. That's really very concerning.

[07:10:23] So yes, it is very, very difficult. If they decide to self-radicalize, if they're engaged in the social media that is provided by ISIS, you can't track it all. It's against the law to track it all, and it probably should be. But at some point, you have these events that are not impossible but pretty darn tough.

CUOMO: Now, at the same time, we have these guys who look like they slipped through, right? Because one of them you were monitoring. You had a case against them that you couldn't make.

The other headline this morning, U.S. issues bounty on four ISIS high- value targets. What's that about?

ROGERS: You know, there's a program through the Justice Department and the State Department where they put out bounties for information leading to the -- to either the arrest or taking them off the battlefield.

Big -- it had some great success in Iraq. Most of the money that was spent in this program, some $100 million over the last decade, went to cases in Iraq. It has had good opportunity to catch some folks, and it has -- you know, it's kind of mixed results in its success.

But what it does is sends a very clear signal. And I think this was important. That we take their leadership of ISIS seriously, and we're going to offer people who are disgruntled the opportunity to do something about it.

It didn't work with al Qaeda senior leadership so well. It might work with ISIS, but it sends a very clear signal that we're not going to let you go unfettered in this particular terrorist operation you're running in Syria.

CUOMO: In America we understand the threat. It is painfully obvious. The question is how we deal with that as a combination culture, right -- Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist.

What do you see in the Texas situation in terms of this question about what is the right thing to do towards Muslims and what isn't? Some people are saying it's a First Amendment issue. I'm not so sure about that. But what is the line about how much you do what Islam doesn't like you to do?

ROGERS: Yes, you know, this is that time problem in a society that appreciates our freedom of speech. And, you know, some would argue did this go over the -- over the line?

We have this debate every day outside of religious circles on people's lifestyles and other things. When does it -- when should it end? When does it start? And you know, the standard for my family when my mother used to say, "Your freedom of speech ends at the end of your fist touching the beginning of my nose." Pretty good standard to live by.

If people are going to want to have this kind of expression, I don't think you ought to go out of your way to agitate -- agitate folks, but having discussions about how you might disagree with their particular tenets of their religion is clearly covered under the First Amendment freedom and protection.

CUOMO: Absolutely. But even the pope said, "You talk about my mother, I'll punch you in the face."

And the -- but it is interesting, though, the Garland, Texas, thing has brought up this American sentiment that, you know, this Islamophobia is very real in this country and something we have to negotiate. Mike Rogers, thank you so much for the intelligence perspective, as always -- Mick.

ROGERS: Thanks, Chris.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris.

Baltimore's top cop speaking out to CNN in his first interview since Freddie Gray's death and making a rather surprising admission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: There is a lack of trust within this community. Period. Bottom line. And that's going to take healing. That's going to take us acknowledging as a police department, not just here in Baltimore, but law enforcement as a whole, that we've been part of the problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Commissioner Anthony Batts also says he was surprised that six of his officers were charged in Gray's death. In the meantime, Tuesday new attorney general, Loretta Lynch, met with police, community and city leaders as well as separately meeting with Gray's family in Baltimore.

CAMEROTA: Another thaw between the U.S. and Cuba. Ferry service will begin soon for Americans to travel between the two countries. The two Florida-based ferries and a carrier out of Cuba confirming they can now operate. Florida and Cuba separated by just 90 miles.

CUOMO: Scary video, this out of Boston. A huge tree -- watch it. Guess who it fell on? Kids. This happened Monday evening. They're just playing in a public park, 2 and 8, these little boys. Rushed to the hospital. One of them being treated for a skull fracture. The park remains closed. Its other trees are being inspected. Now, why do we show you this? Because we want to scare you about your

kids? No. But it raises a real issue. People don't like to spend money in their government on going through infrastructure, in doing these kinds of things, tree checking. These things get cut very quickly in budgets, because it's seen as a waste, superfluous.

PEREIRA: When you think about it oftentimes, the videos that we show you are oftentimes things -- sinkholes or this kind of things, infrastructure.

CUOMO: Things you've got to pay attention to. People don't want to spend the money on it. You've got to be careful.

CAMEROTA: And that tree looked fine. Like, that was an alive tree. That wasn't a dead tree.

PEREIRA: A healthy-looking tree.

CAMEROTA: And it fell. So scary.

Well, Attorney General Loretta Lynch promising to support Baltimore through its unrest after the death of Freddie Gray. Maryland Congressman Elijah Cummings, who's been on the ground through it all, joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:18:38] CUOMO: Attorney General Loretta Lynch, barely in office a week, already on the ground now in Baltimore, trying to get hands on there. She spent hours meeting with officials, community leaders and politicians on the local and national level Tuesday, hoping to find a way forward for the city.

The issues are real. The solutions matter just as much. So let's talk about whether or not it's heading the right way with Congressman Elijah Cummings, a native of Baltimore, represents the city, met with attorney general Loretta Lynch, was on the streets keeping people calm. The community appreciated it, and so did we.

Good to have you with us, Congressman. Let's get right to the criticism that is coming up about these charges. Mosby went too fast. She wanted to please the people, not Lady Justice. And now you've got names wrong and the probable cause, you've got charges that may not stick. Do you feel the criticism is justified?

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: No, I don't feel it's justified. She is the state's attorney. And she made a decision based upon her own investigation and that of the Baltimore City Police Department.

Look, Chris, I practiced criminal law for years. And you're going to always have criticism of a prosecutor. That's just the way it is.

But, again, I believe in her. She's an outstanding attorney. The impeccable integrity. And I think she made the decision that was in her best judgment. And I trust her judgment. And then, I mean, we're in the beginning stages, Chris, of this situation. And we'll see how it goes.

[07:20:05] CUOMO: The names wrong, what do you make of that? And the false imprisonment charge, which of course, you understand, but for the audience, it's basically saying, "You guys didn't get it right, and I'm charging you as criminals." Is that going to have a chilling effect on police officers? Those two issues.

CUMMINGS: I would -- I would hope not. The thing that we've got to keep in mind is that we have a young man, Freddie Gray, that is dead. Seems like sometimes we take our focus off of that. And he was a young man that was otherwise healthy before he came in contact with the police.

And so I think that we have to let the justice system work the way the justice system is supposed to work. And I'm sure that, again, the -- all of this will now be in the public stage -- on the public stage. And all will be able to see and hear what exactly happened. And the jury at some point will, I'm sure, come back with a fair and just verdict.

CUOMO: The reports, though, about the names being wrong and that maybe the knife did qualify as illegal, does that give you cause for concern, Congressman?

CUMMINGS: Not at all because, again, having practiced criminal law, Chris, I'm telling you, I would look for every single -- to determine whether every "I" is dotted and every "T" is crossed. As a defense attorney, I'm looking for anything I can get my hands on to try to take away any kind of momentum that a prosecutor might have. That's the way our criminal system operates.

And so I trust the system. I trust our prosecutor. And I trust what she's done. And I know she's going to give it her best.

And again, if the officers are found not guilty, so be it. But this is the process that we go through. People in my neighborhood go through this process every day.

CUOMO: We know -- we know that people on the streets in those communities, a big push back from them on the streets where you grew up where, "Hey, if they were one of us it wouldn't have taken a week and a half. They would have charged us right away." And that goes to the feelings of it not being a fair system. That's why justice is so important in this matter.

Let me ask you something: Are you having any good luck with pushing the issues that are really behind the outrage of the community? Obviously, they're angry about Freddie Gray and some issues about policing, but not having jobs, not having the education, those intractable problems, is this a window of opportunity for you to go back to the brothers and sisters in Washington and say help there and we'll have less of what we're dealing with, with Freddie Gray?

CUMMINGS: Without a doubt, Chris. I've said it before. The death, the tragic death of Freddie Gray, happened in a moment. And now it must lead to a movement that changed the lives of so many. I've got to tell you, Chris, over the last few days, I've been going

to nonstop meetings, telephone calls coming from private foundations, corporations, government officials wanting to make sure that we address the issues of education, job training, criminal justice reform, sentencing reform, health reforms, things that go to the bottom line of healing a community and allowing everybody to be a part of what we call the Inclusion Revolution.

And so without a doubt we are at that moment, but we've got to take advantage of this moment, Chris. Because if we don't, it will pass by. And we'll be talking about these things five years from now; only they will be worse.

So, again, I know the mayor is working 24/7. I talked to her three or four times yesterday. I know she's meeting with various philanthropic organizations, our universities here in Maryland, and talking to Governor Hogan and the Congress. And I'm calling on Speaker Boehner to help us out in trying to resolve some of these issues.

CUOMO: You know, on the people there in that community, a lot of them are pointing fingers at Republicans and saying, "They don't want to help us. They don't want to help us."

You know, Baltimore's been run by Democrats and, recently, African- American Democrats for a really long time. It's not really about Republicans. I mean, the Democrats, you've had your people in there, Congressman Cummings. I mean, you guys are as responsible for what has and hasn't been done as anybody else. Isn't that fair?

CUMMINGS: Chris -- come on, Chris. You know, it's not about personalities. It's about policy. And you know and I know that a lot of the policies coming down from Washington, coming down from the state, actually, too. But coming from Washington are not necessarily kind to urban areas.

So, particularly, yes, lately -- I mean, you keep in mind that Freddie Gray had a serious problem with lead poisoning. And we just found out that that budget has been cut 33 percent. The neighborhood's budget figure has been cut some 70 percent. So, come on.

But not only that. As I said you've got to have money to do a lot of these things.

[07:25:22] So hopefully people will wake up and understand that this Inclusion Revolution is so important, because it's good for all of us. All of us need to do well. We can't have our children being blocked from opportunity. What are they going to do?

CUOMO: Understood.

CUMMINGS: And so, again, I'm excited. I'm excited. And I know that we're going to make a big difference here.

CUOMO: I heard those people calling out to you, Congressman Cummings, to fight the good fight, and I know you've promised to do it. And we'll stay on it. Thank you very much, Congressman. Appreciate having you on the show.

CUMMINGS: And it was good having you in Baltimore.

CUOMO: We'll be back -- Mick.

PEREIRA: All right. Hillary Clinton making a big announcement about her plans for immigration reform. Could this be the issue that wins her the White House? Take a look Inside Politics.

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