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AT THIS HOUR

Germanwings Co-pilot Did Trial Run; Was Knife Found on Freddie Gray Legal; Texas Shooter Talked to British Jihadist on Twitter. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired May 6, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:20] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Practice run to mass murder. A new report says the pilot accused of crashing a plane full of people into the Alps did a trial run earlier that day so how did it go unnoticed?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Was the knife found on Freddie Gray legal? A single spring could be the game changer in the case against the six Baltimore police officers charged in his death. We'll explain.

BERMAN: And then possible online link to ISIS. The Texas shooter and his Twitter talk to a British jihadist. Does this indicate there was some kind of international plot?

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

BOLDUAN: I'm Kate Bolduan.

New developments this morning coming in about the hours leading up to the Germanwings flight that slammed into the French Alps killing all 150 people onboard. An interim report put out by French investigators found out that Andreas Lubitz practiced in the hours ahead of time. Lubitz did this while the captain was out of the cockpit, the same captain on the deadly flight later that day.

Frederik Pleitgen joins us now.

Fred, a lot here in this report.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There is a lot here in that report. We've been talking so much since this crash happened about the premeditated nature of all of this and how much planning Lubitz put into killing all those people when he steered that plane into the French Alps. It seems as though right now that he did rehearse what he was going to do on the flight immediately before the doomed flight later that day and those are the words of the French investigators who put out that interim report today. There is interesting quotes in all of that. Just like in the doomed flight, he waited for the pilot to leave the cockpit and then started fidgeting around with the controls. One quote we have here is selected altitude decreased to 100 feet. That's a selected altitude of the autopilot for three seconds and then increased to the maximum value of 49,000 feet and then stabilized at 35,000 feet. Later in the initial findings from the report they say several altitude selections toward 100 feet were recorded during descent on the flight that preceded the flight. That indicates or strongly suggests that this is so important that they put this into the interim report that it appears to them that he did in fact rehearse all this.

It's interesting to point out that while the co-pilot changed the selected altitude of the autopilot several times, at no point did that influence the trajectory of the plane. It was supposed to be going down at that point in time. It did. They believe that because trajectory of the plane wasn't changed because the altitude changes were so quick that he readjusted them and that's why the pilot at this point didn't notice that the co-pilot was fidgeting around with controls. It is a very interesting new finding and one that indicates that even more planning went into this than we had initially thought.

BERMAN: Crucial new findings which lay out the time line of what this man was thinking.

Fred, thank you so much.

It raises so many new questions, which is why we're lucky to have with us CNN aviation analyst, Mary Schiavo, former inspector general for the Department of Transportation. And here with us in New York, CNN aviation analyst, Les Abend.

Les, you are a commercial pilot, and, Les, any reason to do what this man did to keep setting the descent to 100 feet and cancelling it.

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: It's a two-step process when you select an altitude. The first process is to select the altitude that you're clear to and second process is how do we get to that altitude. There are various ways to do it. There's vertical speed mode. There's flight level change mode. He probably had already established the airplane in a descent. There was clearance involved down to 25,000 feet. Judging by that graph, it's strange the captain would have left the cockpit knowing that descent would have been initiated into Barcelona at that point in time. There's something curious about that why he had to go to the lab at that point. Regardless, I know we're talking about this from the standpoint of it could be a practice but it very well could have been he may have been contemplating doing it at that time because he was trained in that system.

BERMAN: He may have been a man thinking about suicide having second thoughts five times before landing the plane.

[11:05:12] BOLDUAN: That's an interesting point, Les. Absolutely. Something to consider.

Mary, when you see that graph and those wild changes in altitude selection, it does beg the question is there any way or any expectation that the pilot when he came back in would have noticed anything or that anyone on the ground should have noticed anything there? MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: No. That's the heartbreak on top

of heartbreak. There's lots of data available but unless the plane is equipped to stream the data and they decide to stream the data of the performance from the flight and someone is monitoring it, they wouldn't have noticed. It's clear that the pilot didn't notice for another reason the front lab was inoperative and he went clear to the back. He was gone for four minutes. There was nothing indicated in the report that when he came back he said anything or at least that was captured on CVR that I felt something or heard something or nothing. So while you could capture that kind of data and in fact after every flight if you wanted to you could change the configuration and get the data off the flight data recorder. They're not made that way now. It's not monitored now even though that data could be available.

BERMAN: Two questions here, Les. There are possible ways in the future that people would notice, as Mary said, live streaming of that data if someone knew what to look for and an additional person in the cockpit which many European airlines instituted since. US Airlines has that. Someone would have noticed if he was doing this.

ABEND: It would have been a flight attendant into the cockpit as a precaution more for nefarious event to come into the cabin as a security procedure and that flight attendant would say -- you're looking at a pilot qualified changing some sort of mode on the autopilot, it wouldn't have set off alarm bells regardless.

BERMAN: Unless you know what you're looking for.

ABEND: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: Do you foresee -- flight attendants on American Airlines, Mary, do they have training to notice if a pilot was putting in some very drastically changing altitude selections?

SCHIAVO: By in large, no. They're not trained in that. There are savvy flight attendants and some have pilot licenses themselves. Not usually. They are in there to safeguard the pilot who is not flying who is outside the door is not gone that long and they are really there to safeguard the door and just to make sure that the pilot doesn't get sick or pass out or die while the other one is out of the cockpit. So they are watching the door. And usually it's a very short event.

BOLDUAN: Amazing this is coming out in the interim report.

Mary, always great to see you. Les, thank you so much.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Lots to discuss on that front as well going ahead.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, was the knife found in Freddie Gray's pocket when he was arrested, was it illegal? One of the officers charged is now questioning the prosecutor over that weapon. What this challenge could mean for the case against the officers. BERMAN: Plus, the big dog played D. New comments to CNN from Bill

Clinton. How he now explains the controversial finances inside his foundation.

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[11:11:49] BOLDUAN: New this morning in the investigation into Freddie Gray's death, one of the six Baltimore police officers charged in the case is now challenging the prosecutor in court over some of the charges. Officer Edward Nero insists the knife that Gray was carrying at the time of his arrest was illegal contradicting the case against him. Marilyn Mosby says the knife found was legal meaning that his arrest was not.

BERMAN: Officer Nero is demanding to see the knife. Mosby issued a statement saying, quote, "The evidence we collected cannot be disclosed, relayed or released to the public before trial." And she went onto condemn anyone with access to trial evidence that leaks information prior to the resolution of the case. She said the knife was legal.

CNN legal analyst, Paul Callan, is with us, a former prosecutor. And we're joined by attorney, Eric Guster.

Paul, it seems to me either this knife was legal or it is not. That will be cleared up soon. A separate issue is whether the cops knew it was legal or it's not. The state prosecutor, the state attorney seems to suggest they knew it was legal yet they still arrested Freddie Gray?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's where the difference lies in the case. Bear in mind, the reports were that Freddie Gray began running the minute he saw the cops and he was in a high crime neighborhood. The Supreme Court has said that would have justified a reasonable stop. They could have pursued him and stopped and made inquiry. She doesn't talk about that. It's mixed up together like the initial stop was illegal. Now, the second part is could they arrest him after the stop? If that knife was a spring assisted switchblade or gravity knife, it may have been illegal under Maryland law. If in fact it was not, then maybe the arrest was made just to teach him a lesson because he gave the cops lip when they stopped him, which is what the D.A. is saying. Defense attorneys have every right to ask to see that knife and have their own experts examine it because I can tell you it's confusing sometimes as to whether these knives are legal or illegal.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: That can come down to the spring, the button, the way that the switchblade opens up and opening mechanism which is confusing to lay people.

CALLAN: How confusing it is in New York the D.A. went after some of the biggest stores in the country. Home Depot and others that were accidentally selling illegal knives.

(CROSSTALK)

CALLAN: Cops on the street have the same problem.

BOLDUAN: On the most basic point, Eric, if when the knife is revealed, if it is found that this was an illegal knife meaning the arrest was legal and correct, it gets confusing, illegal/legal, do the charges against Officer Nero, will they be dropped immediately? What happens?

ERIC GUSTER, ATTORNEY: We have to remember he's facing more than just this one charge. He has two counts of assault and two counts of misconduct in office. So what the defense lawyers are doing, they're trying to chip away at the prosecution's case bit by bit because this is just like them carving out Mt. Rushmore. They are filing motions to try to take away one charge at a time. I believe the case will go away on that particular count. However, he faces two charges of assault and two counts of misconduct in office. That would just take away part of his criminal responsibility.

[11:15:23] BERMAN: That's the false imprisonment charge. The false imprisonment charge is the one that hangs on whether this knife was legal or it's not, Paul. Would the cops need to know whether the knife was a switchblade or not to be convicted of false imprisonment?

CALLAN: I think you're onto something. It's an important part of the case. If they knew it was a legal knife and they throw him in the back of the paddy wagon and they proceed to give him a rough ride and when he should be hospitalized they continue with the ride to torture him for the nastiness that proceed possibly, then you have a very serious case here. On the other hand, if it's a close call, if the cop in good faith thought it was an illegal knife, he had grounds to put him in custody and take him to the precinct and have him examined further at the precinct.

BOLDUAN: It's important to note this doesn't get to the most important issue regardless of if they're chipping away at charges or not on how did Freddie Gray die. We're talking about the arresting event. How he died that happened right after that, this does not get to that.

BERMAN: People thought these would be the easiest charges to prove and get convictions on and they could disappear.

All right, Eric Guster, Paul Callan, thanks for being with us.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Go ahead.

GUSTER: Thank you. Even if the knife was legal, if they abused him, hurt him, they would face those other charges. That's just one part of the case that may go away. He still faces a few other charges as well.

BERMAN: Agree.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Thanks so much.

Ahead for us, the Twitter jihadist who may have played a role in Texas shootings. What did he say that has investigators now on the hunt?

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[11:20:31] BERMAN: We have new information this morning on the Texas shooting. One of the gunmen, Elton Simpson, appears to have exchanged tweets with a British ISIS recruiter, Hussain. Officials say Hussain may have played a key role in inspiring Simpson.

BOLDUAN: He's British hacker who is believed to have joined ISIS in the last couple years. U.S. officials say Hussain recruits online and inspires others to launch attacks in the West.

Let's bring in CNN terror analyst, Paul Cruickshank.

Paul, great to see you.

Paul, you know a lot about these guys especially their impact and their reach when it comes to social media. How dangerous is this guy?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: There's concern about this British ISIS attacker. He is believed to have moved from the U.K. to Syria in early 2013 to join up with ISIS and to play a significant role within that terrorist organization helping them with some of these hacks in recent months. Just before the attack, Elton Simpson called on Twitter followers to follow Hussain and claimed ownership for ISIS after this attack and also there was a tweet in the hours before the attack warning something was in the works. Soon we'll come to your streets with death and slaughter he said before this attack in Texas. The idea is he might have had full knowledge of this attack and just the past few hours he released another tweet saying, "You ain't seen anything yet. Soon, soon." Obviously, there's concern he has knowledge of another attack in the works in the United States.

BERMAN: What are the range of this guy's responsibilities? Just a recruiter or just a propagandist? Is it possible he tried to inspire these people in the United States or is he an operational planner?

CRUICKSHANK: The concern that U.S. authorities have is he's playing an operational role in terms of encouraging people in the United States in the West to launch attacks. He's very prolific on Twitter. Twitter keeps suspending his account but he pops up with new accounts all the time. He's able to stay online and get this message out from the ISIS point of view and he has very significant hacking skills. He was part of an international hacking collective called team poison convicted in the U.K. in 2012 for stealing some personal information of Tony Blair's and posting it online and he puts these hacking capabilities at the service of ISIS and back in March when there was that threat put out by ISIS supporters putting out that information about U.S. military online, you'll recall that he was one of the ISIS figures who was posting that on Twitter. So a very dangerous individual indeed because of his tech savvy skills and knowledge. BOLDUAN: How serious is this trend. It's a scary trend for sure.

How worried are officials taking this in terms of lone wolves and these operatives and ISIS operatives communicating via social media with what would become these lone wolves like Elton Simpson? It seems at this moment extremely tough to stay on top of these communications and on top of this threat.

CRUICKSHANK: It's very concerning indeed. If these lone wolves in the West are reaching out and interacting with ISIS figures, that can give extra inspiration to launch attacks. They feel it's part of a greater cause. The last few months we've seen a number of plots and attacks in which lone wolves prior to the attack have pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. We saw that in Paris with the kosher market attack pledging allegiance and then in Copenhagen with the shooting at the event there where he pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al Baghdadi a few minutes before the attack on Facebook. All of this is allowing ISIS to take ownership and to use it for propaganda purposes and to inspire future attacks.

[11:24:51] BOLDUAN: It's that propaganda inspiring future attacks, recruiting, that's all a big part of their operation at this point.

Paul Cruickshank, great to see you as always.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, was it rehearsal for murder? A new report says the pilot accused of crashing the commercial jet into the French Alps killing everyone onboard that he did a trial run earlier in the day. We'll delve further into this. How could it go unnoticed?

BERMAN: And confident, reckless. Prosecutor versus prosecutor. New scathing criticism for Marilyn Mosby from inside Baltimore.

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BOLDUAN: New information this morning on the crash Germanwings flight suggests the crash was not only premeditated but practiced. Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz set the altitude to hundreds of feet on an earlier flight data when he was alone in the cockpit at that time.

BERMAN: On the return flight, Lubitz is accused of deliberately crashing his plane into the French Alps killing all 150 people on board.

I want to bring in Justin Green, aviation attorney and private pilot.

Justin, I want to show a graphic image of what he did. You can see hopefully the descent of this line. Gradual descent. The red line is what he was setting the autopilot. The altitude to be. Never actually engaged. The plane never went to that altitude but kept on setting it at 100 feet. Saying, "I might take this plane to 100 feet. I might crash this plane right now."