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AT THIS HOUR

ISIS Claims 1st Attack on U.S. Soil in Texas; How Does Intelligence Community Take ISIS Warning?; Who are Elton Simpson, Nadir Soofi?; What Elton Simpson's Attorney Remembers of Him; Obama Sends Loretta Lynch to Baltimore. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired May 5, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: We'll have that when it happens here on CNN. Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: For the first time, ISIS claims responsibility for an attack on U.S. soil and warns of more to come. Were the Texas gunmen under orders from abroad?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama speaks candidly about race as the White House sends the new attorney general, Loretta Lynch, to Baltimore. The big tasks she faces as that city struggles to heal following the death of Freddie Gray and charges against six officers.

BERMAN: He has won the Iowa caucuses and says he has already defeated the Clinton machine once so could Mike Huckabee be the next president? You're looking at live pictures from Hope, Arkansas, as the former governor jumps into the race during our show, AT THIS HOUR.

BOLDUAN: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman.

New this morning, ISIS is claiming its first attack on U.S. soil. The terror group announced on its radio station that Sunday's shooting outside a contest to draw cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, was carried out by its soldiers. One question this morning, were these men acting under direct orders from ISIS or were they just inspired by ISIS? Does that distinction even matter anymore?

BOLDUAN: It does seem clear the men were ready to battle both wearing body protection as they opened fire by police outside of the event in garland, Texas. Police returned fire killing both of them.

Senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, has more on what we're learning about these men.

And, Nick, what John was talking about the connection to ISIS.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is an important connection if they were part of a chain of command. That's vital in stopping future attacks and it's the key indicating sign, for example, you can pick up when eavesdropping that someone might be out to plan something like we saw in garland, Texas. What we heard today from the ISIS radio station thought to be broadcasting out of mostly northern Iraq is scant detail. It calls the two men the soldiers of the caliphate, refers to them as brothers and repeats what we know of reading any media source there was an exchange of fire with the security guard who they injured outside that exhibition. Now it goes on to put out a threat against the United States which says, "We say to the U.S. that future attacks are going to be harsher and worse. The Islamic state soldiers will inflict harm on you with the grace of God. The future is just around the corner."

That really echoes a lot of rhetoric we've heard from ISIS in the past and doesn't suggest that a wave of attacks is imminent on the U.S. But the key question really is we know one of the gunmen, Elton Simpson, tweeted a pledge of allegiance to the "leader of the faithful" in his tweet. That's ISIS' head, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. He made that tweet and then carried out the attack. Did ISIS know anything about the attack before that moment or did they simply read what came on social media or afterwards and decided it was wise to try to latch themselves onto that for propaganda value. Investigators need to know the answer. Even if it is the case, it raises lone wolves training themselves over the Internet. How do you really fight that kind of enemy -- John?

BERMAN: It could be a more difficult battle to begin with.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

Nick, thank you so much.

Nick lays it out perfectly. That shootout raises many new questions. Nick laying out a lot of them about vulnerability here in the United States in the face of terror.

Let's continue the discussion with our counterterrorism analyst, Philip Mudd.

As we're discussing, how does the intelligence community in the aftermath of this shooting, how does the intelligence community then take this warning? How do they find out if there was a direct connection or if this was an ISIS inspired attack?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: We understand the motivation. You look at the tweet from attackers talking about is. The question you pose is do we have an indication that this was directed and not inspired. The first question is travel. Did they go some place to meet is individuals? I doubt it. Especially given the lack of sophistication in the attack. The second is communications. That's one reason that the search of the apartment is so important. Is there something on a laptop, another computer, a cell phone that suggests that there were communications or planning either with an ISIS headquarters person or with co-conspirators in advance of the attack? We should know that pretty quickly.

[11:05:10] BERMAN: How big of a deal is this? They did not manage to carry out their attack. They picked a hard target. They were armed. They had body armor. They were at least at a minimum inspired by ISIS and they tried to kill people on U.S. soil. Is this enough a seminal moment in the U.S. struggle against terror?

MUDD: I think it is this moment goes back about five to eight years. The first step was al Qaeda conducting an orchestrated attack on 9/11. The hijackers, trained, funded, et cetera, by al Qaeda. The second stage is franchises, like the al Qaeda franchise and group in Yemen that directed the bomber who almost took down that airliner over Detroit. The third stage is what you see now, I'm going to say 2007 and 2008. Not an affiliated group but an individual that raises his hand that says, "I never met an ISIS person but I like the ideology and I want to participate in this war." The problem is you don't have a central target to direct intelligence resources against. You have 300 million people in this country and people talk about looking on Facebook or Twitter to find people like that. That's an impossible task.

BOLDUAN: That gets to the bigger point of how do you stop them before it occurs. This is seen as law enforcement success that they stopped guys before they got through the security perimeter. Is it an intelligence failure or expose the challenge of the intelligence that they couldn't stop these guys before they got to that parking lot considering one of the guys, Simpson, has been on the radar since '06.

MUDD: You're right. You have basic intelligence here that's raised by this phenomenon of individuals that participate in this jihad but never met an ISIS or al Qaeda member. As an intelligence professional, these people don't give me a vulnerability to look at. If they are communicating with is central, if I'm picking up on those communications, that's a clear vulnerability. If they sit in a basement in Texas saying we want to buy Kevlar and get weapons, there's little vulnerability there. One quick point on the comment about them being on the radar already. When you're at the threat table every morning at 7:00 a.m., every morning there are cases of is inspired kids in America who are either traveling to Iraq or Syria today, May 5th, 2015, or who have already traveled there. People considering or people gone. You have to weigh that against somebody you picked up five years ago who was prosecuted in 2011 to say how much time do I want to spend on current cases and how much time do I want to spend five years down the road on somebody I'm worried about. That's a tough resource question for a manager.

BERMAN: Phil, when ISIS claimed responsibility, they made sure to mention Nation of the Cross. All of these references to the cross itself. Clearly, ISIS itself wants to paint this as a battle of civilizations.

MUDD: What you see here is, we look at ISIS as an organization that owns territory in Syria and Iraq and spread out to places like -- they claim at least places like Yemen, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan. What they're trying to do with this language is to tell local populations we're not just a group that wants to own a village. They declared a caliphate also. They declared the return of an entire universe of Islam across the Middle East. What they are trying to do is portray this as a battle between Islam and Christianity and to tell people in villages in Pakistan, Syria and Iraq, we, ISIS, are the defenders of Islam against Christianity. We're not just chump-change terrorists who own territory. That's what they're trying to do here.

BERMAN: Phil Mudd, thank you.

MUDD: Thank you.

BERMAN: You have been out there in this battle on the front lines.

The American Freedom Defense Initiative was the group hosting the contest in Texas to draw cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that was the target of these gunmen. The group's president, Pamela Geller, hopes to host more events like this despite now these calls by ISIS for more attacks.

BOLDUAN: Joining us to talk more about the event, the shooting and the threat following is the vice president of the American Freedom defense Initiative, Robert Spencer.

Mr. Spencer, thank you so much for your time.

ROBERT SPENCER, VICE PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FREEDOM DEFENSE INITIATIVE: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: You heard our discussion there with Phil Mudd and you have ISIS, in part, they say future attacks will be harsher and worse. Are you guys having second thoughts about future events in light of this?

SPENCER: No, I think this only underscores the necessity to hold events like this, to show we won't be cowed, we will not curtail our activities or be intimidated or bow to violent intimidation. What they want to do is force us to mandate death for those that insult Islam or Muhammad. If you are not a Muslim, you do not believe in those laws and in a pluralistic society we have to get around with one another and put up with offense to our core beliefs by those that do not behold them. So if we kowtow to this and say Muhammad and Islam are off-limit off-limits, we're aiding it.

[11:10:48] BERMAN: Do you feel the event was a success?

SPENCER: Absolutely, it was a success. It was a success because we made the point that we were not going to bow, surrender or submit. And the Garland police did a stellar job.

BERMAN: What about the fact there was violence and proved the point you were trying to make.

SPENCER: Yes, absolutely.

BERMAN: Are you looking, by holding more events, you could say you are looking for more violence to make this point.

SPENCER: Of course not. That's a ridiculous idea. What we are trying to do -- (CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: I have seen it written though, you said you're not going to bow or stop. This proves the point you need to have more of these events. I want to get your take on the question. If your event was -- if the intent was to serve as bait, it worked.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Is that what you're telling me?

SPENCER: The intent was to stand, to stand on our feet and say we are not going to submit. We are not going to bow to you. We're going to continue to do that. We don't want violence. We're not inciting the violence. The ones inciting violence are on Twitter saying you have to go kill people who draw cartoons. They are just cartoons.

BERMAN: There is no question that you were the target here. No question it was an event within your free speech rights in this country. We can draw what we want to draw.

BOLDUAN: Do you change plans now in light of the violence and in light of the future threat? Do you change plans for your event?

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: I want to put this out there. There is a lot of talk and debate over if this event is controversial or not. We won't debate here. If you have a right to hold this event. You have a right to hold this event. We won't debate if violence is OK in light of this event. Absolutely not. I don't even want to debate the line between free speech and provocation. I want to talk to you and get your take, in light of the fact that there was violence attempted at your event and you want to hold more events, do you now need to change plans very realistically, not using the bully pulpit here?

SPENCER: We have to take adequate security measures. We did at Garland. Jihadis were stopped. They want to replicate the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre and kill massive numbers of people. They weren't able to get into the building. Garland police did a tremendous job. We'll have to have that security and more in the future.

BERMAN: There is at least one police officer there who knows how to use a service revolver.

SPENCER: We owe him a great debt of gratitude.

BERMAN: Robert Spencer, thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: Have you met him?

SPENCER: We're trying to catch him now.

BERMAN: Robert Spencer, thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, "a harmless man," that is how the former attorney for Elton Simpson remembers him. And now what does she think after he tried to shoot up that event in Texas, that cartoon contest? She's joining us next.

BERMAN: Plus, a new contender in the Republican field. You're looking at live pictures right now. Is that Tony Orlando? I think that's Tony Orlando performing at the Mike Huckabee announcement event. This is why you have to stay with us.

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[11:17:37] BOLDUAN: New this morning, ISIS is claiming responsibility for the attack on the cartoon contest in garland, Texas. You remember that, according to Islamic tradition, any depiction of Muhammad is prohibited. It's still not clear if the two men who opened fire were ordered to do so by the terror group or were simply inspired.

BERMAN: So who were these men? Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi, they drove from Arizona to Texas to shoot up this event.

Kyung Lah joins us from Phoenix where these guys were roommates -- Kyung?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They were roommates in this apartment complex behind me. We're learning more about the two men. Elton Simpson is considered at least by authorities a loosely much more of the ring leader. If you look at his high school images, what you get is more of a typical American upbringing. He played basketball in high school. He was a captain of his basketball team. He converted to Islam in high school and there wasn't apparent signs in the early years until he became much more of an adult and then that tweet where he did pledge allegiance to the leader of is. As far as Nadir Soofi, he grew up partially in Pakistan according to a source that knows the family. He went to school there at a prestigious private school and he grew up there after his parents did divorce. Here in Arizona, he's known as a pizza shop owner. He has a son who is quite young.

His grandmother spoke to CNN affiliate, KPRC, and she says she doesn't believe it was grandson that was an instigator but the other gunman, Simpson. Here's what she says.

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SHIRLEY DROMGOOLE, GRANDMOTHER OF NADIR SOOFI: Whoever he was with talked him into it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's how you feel about it?

DROMGOOLE: Yes. There's no other way it would have happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: The most alarming thing about all of this is family members, friends, people who knew them, didn't see any of those signs. These two men, John and Kate, went to mosques together and the president says he didn't see signs either.

BERMAN: Kyung Lah, thank you so much.

One other person that didn't see signs was a lawyer that represented Elton Simpson when he was charged before for making false statements to the FBI.

We're joined now by that lawyer, Kristina Sitton.

Are you with us right now?

Kristina, thank you so much for being with us.

You have said, along with the family of this man, that you thought Elton Simpson was completely harmless. Explain what he was like.

[11:20:15] KRISTINA SITTON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ELTON SIMPSON: I did. He was a very kind hearted, respectful young man. He always treated me with respect.

BERMAN: Respect. It turns out, respect three our four years ago and, Sunday, he goes to an event to kill people. How do you get from a respectful young man to a would-be masked killer?

SITTON: I can't imagine. I can only think that he must have snapped at the event that was taking place there.

BOLDUAN: Can you describe his personality? How much time did you spend with him would you say?

SITTON: I spent quite a bit of time. I represented him for approximately two years. During the course of the case we had to review about 1,500 hours of wires that were taken during the conversations that he had with the confidential informant. I spent quite a bit of time with him often time hours at a time in my office. I remember several times in my office if the meeting was going long, he would ask to leave so he could go pray somewhere quiet.

BOLDUAN: So he was very religious. He was devout. Do you think that was a central part of your interactions with him?

SITTON: Yes. He was a very devout Muslim. I did get the sense that he was trying to convert myself and my staff and the people that were working with me. I don't generally get into personal matters like that with my client so I would just kind of brush it off.

BERMAN: Did you ever sense any kind of radical Islam?

SITTON: I certainly did not. I've been asked that question numerous times over the last several days. I didn't observe anything that had anything to do with radicalization or odd tendencies toward his faith.

BERMAN: I understand that you did have contact with him after the specific case. He came to you when he said he was placed on a no- fly list. Did he give you any indication why that might have been or did you learn of why that might have been because that would be an indication that there is serious suspicion about what he's doing.

SITTON: Yes. During the case the FBI had apparently attempted to get him on the no-fly list and was not successful. Afterward, they were successful on putting him on the no-fly list. He contacted me and let me know he was trying to go to a funeral in the Midwest and he attempted to get on a plane in Phoenix and wasn't able to board a plane.

BOLDUAN: Folks are asking, his family wondering the same thing, were signs missed? Do you think looking back that signs could have been missed or do you think this is a completely different person than the person you interacted with?

SITTON: This is a completely different person than the one I interacted with. I asked myself the same question just recently. If you would have asked me that question the day before this attack happened, I would have told you there are no signs. He was a perfectly nice young man.

BERMAN: It may be frightening if there were no signs at all, if no one picked up any indication that it may be a problem for investigators going forward to detect other instances like this.

Kristina Sitton, thank you for being with us.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

SITTON: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: We have a big announcement just minutes away. He was once the runner-up for the Republican nomination for president. Is it Mike Huckabee's turn in 2016? You're looking at live pictures right now from his announcement. They are showing a campaign video right now. He's minutes away from taking the podium. He's known as a very powerful political speaker. What will he say? Stay with us.

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[11:27:44] BOLDUAN: After days of debate over whether President Obama should head to Baltimore, the White House is sending its new attorney general. The administration says Loretta Lynch has been closely monitoring the unrest there and is heading there today to meet with city officials, faith and community leaders.

BERMAN: Joining us from Baltimore, Athena Jones. Also joining us is actress and activist, Sonja Sohn, who lived and worked in Baltimore for more than a decade and was very, very active in the community there.

First, Athena, to you.

What is this new attorney general going to do today? What is the mission of this trip?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John. This is really about talking to the people in the community, city officials, law enforcement, community leaders and hearing what they have to say. It's about continuing a conversation the administration has been having about how to improve community/police relations. The president spoke about this yesterday. It's something that was on Loretta Lynch's agenda before the death of Freddie Gray and the events of last week. Something that's likely to come up with recommendations aimed at combating the distrust between the community and police in communities like Baltimore and really in cities across the country. Recommendations like training police on bias and making sure they investigate any incidents of fatalities and body worn cameras. That's likely to come up. The Department of Justice is investigating the Freddie Gray case. We don't expect this to be a day of big decisions. It's going to be about continuing the conversation. We'll be watching her as she makes these stops over the course of the day -- John?

[11:59:21] BOLDUAN: Athena, thank you so much. Athena is on the ground for us.

Let's bring in Sonja Sohn.

Sonja, you are not only an actress but, most importantly, here you have spent 10-plus years in Baltimore as your time in acting. You became an activist and inspired you in your time there. And you recently wrote a compelling piece in "The New York Times" about what motivated you, your time in Baltimore, to become an activist. Part of it is appropriate for a discussion today.