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Is "Thug" The New N-Word; Did Freddie Gray Have Pre-Existing Injury?; Orioles-White Sox Play In Empty Ballpark; Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 30, 2015 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- from the actions of the officers and the issues of whether or not charges should be brought has nothing at all -- doesn't in any way, shape or form if it were true and I'm not saying that it is because I have no information that it is.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: You have no information about it. Interestingly those who want to forward the speculation are also ignoring that it's not just about the spine, it's about a crushed voice box and what would that have had to do with it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when we ignore the fact that Freddie was running down the street before the police officers ever put their hands on him and came out unresponsive. So that's why I have to say I can't put much credence in that.

CUOMO: Thank you very much for helping us understand the system and where the family is and answering the speculation. Appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Have a good day.

CUOMO: Alisyn, back to you in New York.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris, we're going to be talking a lot about a word, thugs. That's how violent protesters in Baltimore have been described, but is that word too offensive to use? We will debate that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's amazing you don't call six police officers who kill a man without probable cause thugs, but children who are frustrated and don't have an outlet, you call them thugs? Thugs is the 21st Century word for the n-word and it is repulsive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:35:07] CAMEROTA: Well, that was Reverend Jamal Bryant criticizing the use of a word we've heard a lot this week, thug. Even President Obama and Baltimore's mayor have called the rioters thugs. So what makes that such a charged word and is it the new n-word?

Joining us to debate this is Retired NYPD Detective Harry Houck and CNN political commentator and host of "Huff Host Live" Marc Lamont Hill. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us.

Marc, I want to start by putting the Merriam Webster definition of thug up on the screen because I think it's instructive. Here is what it says.

It's from the Hindi word literally means thief. It dates back to 1810. The definition is a brutal ruffian or assassin also gangster or killer so why mark is this such a loaded racial word now?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Words come from text and words are comprised of text, but then you have context. And it's not just what the word means in the dictionary, which I agree is very instructive.

But how it gets taken up even that word takes on new meaning by say 1837 and becomes a word used by British colonist to describe the other folk, the dark folk, the exotic folk.

And throughout the 19th Century and 20th Century, thug has taken on new meaning. Right now in 2015, thug is almost exclusively used for black people who make white people uncomfortable in certain kinds of spaces.

We saw it with Richard Sherman last year. We see it with these people in Baltimore right now. All of whom are black.

CAMEROTA: Well, hold on, Marc. Let me challenge you for one second because President Obama uses it fairly liberally. He's used it to describe Ukrainian rebels. He is using it to describe ISIS. He has used to describe al Qaeda. He used it to describe people this week who have been throwing rocks at police officers. He has sort of a wider indiscriminate use of that term. It's not always dark people.

HILL: With the exception of Ukrainians all of those people are dark and all of them are still considered ethnic others, even Ukrainian rebels. I think that actually supports my point.

But the bigger here is not so much how President Obama is using it. It's how everyone else is using it. I'm not excusing President Obama. I think President Obama's wrong too, but I think the idea that we only use it for people in the United States -- we use it for the white rioters after the Kentucky game.

We didn't use it for the police officers who hurt him. We didn't use it for the guy in South Carolina, who shot someone running away. We rarely use the term thug for white people. That's the problem.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Harry --

HILL: Go ahead.

PEREIRA: I want to bring Harry in because I want to make sure he gets a chance to be part of the conversation too, Marc. I can hear your passion. What about this notion marc is speaking about, Harry? You have used the term and you're comfortable using it. HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: No problem.

PEREIRA: But what about the idea that this is a label and labels only further marginalize people that are having trouble.

HOUCK: Listen, Alisyn read the definition of thug.

PEREIRA: Yes.

HOUCK: All right, thug's a bad guy, simple as that. It's got nothing to do with your color. Let me tell you something. This is political correctness going amuck.

PEREIRA: Is it?

HOUCK: What's next? Word criminal, we can't use the word criminal now?

PEREIRA: It's a different nuance, isn't there room for nuance in this, Harry?

HOUCK: You've got gangster rappers always use the word thug all the time.

PEREIRA: Do you know why? Reclaiming it.

HOUCK: No, they're taking the word for themselves.

HILL: Wait a minute.

HOUCK: Listen, if you automatically think when somebody says thug, all right, that it means a black person. You need to look in the mirror and say, am I a racist? I'll tell you, yes, because I've called white people thugs.

I've asked some people what do you think when they think thug and they think bad guy. I mean, this is just the left trying to take that word away, all right, so nobody can use it.

PEREIRA: What about even just using a label instead of looking at the root cause. This is what I want to ask both of you and challenge both of you on. If instead we're arguing about a label, are we not looking at the root of the problem? Does it not distract from what's going on in Baltimore if we're just having this battle about a word?

HOUCK: Exactly. That's exactly what's going on.

HILL: I think it is the problem. I think it is the problem though, Alisyn, because part of what I've been saying and what many people have been saying is we are criminalizing young people. And this is part of the problem that happens in Baltimore in urban spaces all around America is that we see 16-year-old and 17-year-old youth.

We don't see those people who make bad choices. We don't see them as people who need training or investment. We see them as young criminals who need to be arrested early. The language itself is reflective of the practice.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but let's talk about the language. So for people who are setting cars on fire and injuring police officers by hurling bricks at them, what do you want to call them, Marc?

HILL: Well, it depends on the context, but in this particular context if you guys are calling them rioters, I say, OK, I think this is an uprising. I understand why you would call this a riot. Some of them are engaged in criminal activity, I understand that. But the label thugs themselves is to undermine and dismiss --

HOUCK: Marc, you don't want to call them criminals. You won't even call them criminals. I mean, they're thugs, criminals, use whatever word you want. What they're trying to do is some of the politicians in Baltimore are trying to deflect away from the criminal activity, from the thugery that's going on down there and make excuses for the young people out there destroying the city.

[07:40:09] CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: The mayor of Baltimore wasn't making excuses. The mayor of Baltimore used the word thug and later apologized for it. She wasn't saying it's OK to destroy --

HOUCK: That's because she's listening to her friend, who doesn't like the word. That's basically why.

HILL: Just let me finish though. Just let me finish the thought. You're acting like a thug right now, Harry. What I'm saying is that she wanted to challenge these young people to say, look, what you're doing is wrong.

But I don't want to create a context where we begin to see these young people purely through the lens of criminality because it stops us from doing the thing that we want to do which is change things, fix things, invest in them.

That's the problem for me. It's not critiquing bad behavior. It's the way we critique bad behavior.

HOUCK: Yes, let's look at the problem. Let's look at why things are the way they are in Baltimore.

CAMEROTA: Sure.

HOUCK: You know, why are we even talking about thug is insanity to me and we shouldn't be talking about it? How are we going to clear up the problem? This is deflection away from the real problems that are going on.

PEREIRA: But language matters though, Harry.

HOUCK: Yes, but I mean, you can't change the definition of a word just because you don't like it or because you're politically correct -- PEREIRA: Gentlemen, we have to leave it here. We could probably go

for another hour on this very topic. But we don't want to distract from the true story. Harry and Marc Lamont Hill, we appreciate you guys bringing you passion today.

CAMEROTA: Thanks. We do want to know what you think about all of this. Please tweet us using #newdayCNN. We'd love to hear your thought on all this language.

PEREIRA: Meanwhile back to the questions about the investigation. There are increasing questions surrounding the death of Freddie Gray. These questions of did he have a pre-existing medical condition? A reporter who has done a whole lot of digging will join Chris next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:45:38]

CUOMO: All right, you want the big questions from Baltimore? Here they are. Did Freddie Gray hurt himself in that van? "The Washington Post" says that someone who is in the van with him believes that was true. Is that worth you believing? OK.

Is tomorrow the big day when the police turn over their findings? Are you going to hear whether or not there are charges and is all of this just an excuse for pre-existing injury that Freddie Gray had and that's why his back broke?

Those are the big questions. We have someone who's digging for answers every day, Mark Puente, investigative reporter for "Baltimore Sun."

Mark, thank you for being with us. Let's check these boxes one by one. Let's start with the first one in time. Freddie Gray, pre- existing condition, hurt his spine, had a lawsuit, had a settlement from a car accident or maybe it was lead poisoning. What have you figured out?

MARK PUENTE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "BALTIMORE SUN": Court records show that there was a settlement filed paperwork for settlement in Howard County. We went and got the records. Records say it was related to a lead paint lawsuit from years ago.

His sister has a similar case, one case number off. Some web sites put it out there that it was a settlement related to a car accident. That's not true. There's another district court case where Freddie Gray is listed in a tort injury case.

The lawyer for the Gray family says that it was Freddie Gray Sr., the father. I tracked downed 74-year-old lady, who was listed as a plaintiff in that case. She says it's not Freddie Gray Jr., it's the father. So we're debunking the claims.

CUOMO: So they are debunking the claims, one hanging question, that Freddie Gray, yes or no, checked the box in one of those legal documents, one of those pleadings that said car accident, work related or something -- what did that mean?

PUENTE: He did. He checked auto accidents. There are three boxes he checked. But he also wrote something underneath where you can't make it out, but his sister's document she checked other and she wrote lead.

But he also acknowledged that the injuries occurred when he was a minor. He listed the minor. The sister's form says the exact same thing, so related to the lead paint case.

CUOMO: Conspiracy theory not relevant to this investigation in terms of what happened to his back. Done. Next one, the idea from "The Washington Post," a guy in the van with him says, he hurt himself, that's what I think. How much weight do you put on it?

PUENTE: I can't speak to what Peter Herman reported. He's a fine reporter. I respect his work. I didn't get that report so let Peter Herman speak for that?

CUOMO: What questions does it raise?

PUENTE: It raises a question, was there a pre-existing injury. If that's true, but I haven't the report and I can't speak to what's in that story.

CUOMO: And also whatever thrashing around me was done, remember, it's not just the spine. It's also the voice box, right. So he have a crushed voice box need an answer for that also.

Then a big one here that goes to the dynamic of this investigation and how the leadership is working. Tomorrow's the big day, Puente. You and I both know it because dot, dot, dot.

Why do we think that? Why do we think that tomorrow is such a big day? Why do so many people in the city have expectations that it comes to tomorrow.

PUENTE: That expectation was set by the police commissioner almost two weeks ago when he said he turns his findings over to the state's attorney on May 1st. People at that point started thinking we'll find out how Freddie Gray died and what caused his injuries.

They've kind of backed off and claimed in the last 48 hours, we'll turn the report over, but it's not going to be public. Even the family attorney doesn't want the findings known. They want a thorough investigation.

He's trying to tamp on expectations throughout the city so people don't have an outburst or think they're being misled. So tomorrow is the big day.

CUOMO: This is your city, you work these situation. Is this investigation going as they normally would, is this too long? Is this reasonable?

PUENTE: I've been here a year and digging in investigative stuff related to police cases. Compared to what the "Baltimore Sun" did in our six-month investigation, this one is moving rather fast. They haven't put out information in other case. The national media's here, international media's here. So that's helping drive some of this and it's faster than other cases.

CUOMO: People are following this. They are looking at micro and macro, Freddie Gray specifically, what it says about the policing culture if anything in general. What are your three biggest questions right now?

PUENTE: The biggest questions, as the mayor said, the probable cause, how did Mr. Gray get injured and will it be determined that it was misconduct by officers or there is no misconduct.

CUOMO: You're digging in on it and we're relying on you for that and doing our own reporting as well. Thank you for collaborating with us. Appreciate it. Alisyn, back to you.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris. So this week's chaos leading to surreal sight in Baltimore, the Orioles and the White Sox marking history playing with no fans in the stands. Andy Scholes will have more in our "Bleacher Report" next.

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[07:52:35]

PEREIRA: History being made. For the first time ever a major league baseball game was closed to the public, all of that unrest in Baltimore and beyond, spilled over even into the world of sports. Andy Scholes has more in this morning's "Bleacher Report." And he is in Vegas and we will talk about, too.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS: It had to be weird for the White Sox and Orioles players. You know, they used to hearing the crowd coming down, when a big player hit a home run, but we didn't have any of that in Camden Yards yesterday.

This is the first time in Major League history that a game was played without anybody in the fans, and the players had fun with it before game, signing fake autographs.

And the Orioles scored six runs in the first inning, and three coming off a home run by Khris Davis. And some fans watched this from outside the gates, and they were happy as Baltimore beat Chicago 8-2.

After the game, the Orioles players, they talked about how it felt playing in that empty ballpark.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM JONES, ORIOLES OUTFIELDER: No noise. No sound. It was just quiet. It was weird, different.

BUCK SHOWALTER, ORIOLES MANAGER: Coming up the runway and walking out, it was like batting practice. When we hit here, nobody is here yet, and you realize you are minutes away from playing a Major League Baseball game that's going to count.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: All right, so we are in Las Vegas, getting for what's being called the fight of the century. We got Floyd Mayweather versus Manny Pacquiao. We've been waiting five years for this. It's going to happen Saturday night here at the MGM Garden Arena.

The two fighters, they held their pre-fight press conference yesterday, both of them said they are confident and the best shape they have been in in a very long time.

Both of them actually also said that this fight is going to live up to the hype come Saturday night. Guys, a lot of people are hoping that's the case.

I talked to one gentleman that paid $74,000 for two front row tickets to the fight. The ticket prices are through the roof, and you know, he said he is hoping it's a once in a lifetime event. We all hope that's the case.

CAMEROTA: We have the one and only George Foreman coming up to talk about that fight. I say one and only, but there are five of them.

All right, meanwhile, we want to get back to Chris who is on the streets of Baltimore with all of the action last night there and this morning -- Chris.

CUOMO: Very good reference, Alisyn, knowing that foreman named his kids after himself. Back here in Baltimore, we do know that there is more of this issue everywhere else in the country.

[07:55:09] Witness New York, 100 arrests there, and we are going to take you to the hot spots and figure out what is going on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:59:24]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: Protests across the nation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Emotions are high across the country.

CUOMO: Curfew, once again, the moment of truth in Baltimore. New questions this morning about what happened to Freddie Gray inside that police van.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were two people in the back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This prisoner seems to be saying he was intentionally trying to hurt himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can you thrash around having a severed spine at the neck? (END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: You are watching NEW DAY. It's Thursday, April 30th, 8:00 in the east. Alisyn and Michaela are in New York, there is a lot of news there. Frustration and anger building over the death of Freddie Gray here in Baltimore and around the country. Now on the streets last night, this 10 p.m. curfew, it worked.