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DR. DREW

A State Of Emergency In Baltimore, Looting, Violence On The Streets, Fifteen Police Officers Injured, At Least 27 Have Been Arrested; Bruce Jenner Confirms What Most Have Been Suspecting And Talking About For Quite Some Time; Bobby Brown Is Taking Legal Action That Would Give Him Access To Bobbi Kristina`s Money

Aired April 27, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:07] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: We begin with breaking news tonight. There is a state of emergency in

Baltimore, looting, violence on the streets there today. I think everyone is aware. Fifteen police officers injured, at least 27 have been arrested

on the very day when Freddie Gray had been laid to rest. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. ERIC KOWALCZYK, BALTIMORE POLICE CAPTAIN: Attacked officers without provocation. They have no regard for the safety of the people that

live in that community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (1): This is active looting going on right now. I assume that CVS Pharmacy is basically trashed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): The crowd is not obeying police orders for the crowd to disperse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): This is a police officer that had been pulled out. You got to move back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (2): I am looking at another officer who is down, who looks that he is being given assistance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Right now a bunch of crowd jumping on a police car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): Look at how that vehicle has been trashed. Look at this, this guy is taking a picture of somebody in front

of that police vehicle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): Are throwing bricks and rocks and bottles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): This is a picture of a CVS Pharmacy and casually people are just going in there, stealing whatever the hell

they want to steal in there and then they are leaving and -- I do not see any police there. Where are the police?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University, Vanessa Barnett and Hiphollywood.com and Loni

Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell.". And, on the phone, I have CNN Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez,

in Baltimore. Evan, can you give us an update?

EVAN PERES, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Drew, what we have situation here now with the police is that they say they are -- they have

been trying to allow protesters to exercise their right to free speech. The mayor says that that situation has now been exploited by people who are

now looting and rioting all over the city -- in different parts of the city.

She says that this is an intolerable situation. What we have witnessed, however, all day as you heard from some of the clips from CNN`s

coverage today, is that police seem to be holding back. They seem to not be immediately trying to take on some of the rioters. --

PINSKY: Evan, let me ask you this.

PEREZ: And, that is how you have --

PINSKY: I want to ask you this. I see the sort of standing back that they have been there standing -- not even standing down, just standing

away. And, my question is are they expecting more trouble during the night? Is it like Ferguson where they are anticipating escalation or are

they going to take further action if in fact that is the case?

PEREZ: Well, that is the situation. --

PINSKY: Here is a live picture we are looking at.

PEREZ: Everybody expects that it will get worse or it gets better --

PINSKY: I am sorry. We are looking at a picture of -- I imagine, something burning down in the neiborhood thethat has been the object of all

this rioting. Do you know what is on fire right now? What the building is?

PEREZ: Well, there was a fire at the CVS. I cannot tell whether that is the same fire that we are looking at or whether it is an additional

fire. It is something that we are trying to figure out. It is hard for the police to even keep track of exactly where these flare-ups, literally

and figuratively are taking place.

PINSKY: I am also seeing -- it looks as though the streets are reflective water. Has it been raining or is that just from the fire

department?

PEREZ: No. The fire department has been trying to put out some of the fires, but what is happening is also that we have shown on our air.

Some people have tried to cut the fire hoses.

PINSKY: Wow.

PEREZ: To try to stop the fire department from taking the -- from putting out the fire. So, it is something that -- it is quite lawless in

some parts of the city.

PINSKY: Evan, thank you so much for the update. We may be checking back with you. My question is for the panel. Were they unprepared for

this? Is this completely something that caught them by surprise? Vanessa, what do you think?

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I do not think anyone can prepare for anything like this. I do not think they thought it would go

this far. There have been several days of peaceful protest. I think that does need to be pointed out. And, I do not think they ever wanted --

PINSKY: Well, does that matter now, Vanessa?

BARNETT: It does not matter.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: It does not matter. But if you are asking if they were prepared, I do not their they were because they had seen that there were

days of peaceful protest. I do not think you can ever prepare for something this --

PINSKY: This extreme --

BARNETT: -- outrageous.

PINSKY: Yes. And, Lonie, I mean do not the police have -- and the mayor for that matter, does not she and the police, do not they have a

responsibility to protect businesses, to protect all the peaceful members of this community?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: They do. They do.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

COOMBS: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. That is their job. However, as we have seen in other places, you know, Ferguson and other places where they

came out with the riot gear right away and the tanks and everything, people said you are overreacting and you are assuming that there is going to be,

you know, bad stuff. And you know, you are throwing too much on to the fire essentially.

PINSKY: well --

COOMBS: It is hard for the police honestly to get it just right.

PINSKY: Right.

COOMBS: Especially when it is an ongoing thing, you know? It is escalating very quickly right now. It appears throughout the day today.

And, we do not know what is going to happen tonight, now that it is dark. It is really frightening for everybody. But, it seems at least the

community members and the leaders are all out there on the forefront.

They seemed to be talking to each other and to the public. You know, the police are out there in force. They have called in over 300 state

troopers. So, it seems like there is, you know, a reaction --

PINSKY: Well, it is more intense now.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: We have the national guard coming in and what not. But, it is almost like, Loni, you raise an interesting point here. There needs to

be what some what some disciplines call a goldilocks, a goldilocks effect, a just so, a just right discipline-associated with this.

COOMBS: Right.

PINSKY: And, you know, police cannot get it right. Overreaction in Ferguson, under-reaction here. Where is that goldilocks zone? Where is

the just-so, just-right police, police activity.

COOMBS: Well, and the hard thing about that is you do not know what you are dealing with every time, either. I mean --

PINSKY: But, I wonder -- you know, so many disciplines worry about, you know? -- it is not just police, it is many disciplines trying to get it

right. And, interestingly police are faced with that same phenomenon here and they just have not been able to find it.

Now, the mayor took criticism over the weekend, which she said the following, quote, "It is a very delicate balancing act." Again, this is

the goldilocks effect I am thinking about. Because, while we try to make sure they were protected from the cars and the other things that were going

on, we also gave those who wished to destroy space the space to do that as well.

So Judy, do you think -- I mean that is an interesting -- you know, I think about how we operate in mental health situations where people become

aggressive. You give them room but you contain. And, I think they need to do a better job with containment.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right. And, maybe that is where the mayor was going with this. And, she was hoping it would

be something where some people could have free expression that means a little bit of aggression, and that is OK.

But once the aggression starts, Dr. Drew, we know this from experience. It just grows. There is more and more of it because everybody

jumps on board and everybody carries the emotions of the public.

PINSKY: It seems Pollyanna-ish to me to think that, "Oh, a little bit of aggression, everybody. Just bring it down after that."

HO: No.

PINSKY: I mean once it gets going, it escalates. Now, the mayor did speak to media just a short time ago, very short time ago. And, she

addressed her comments, her previous comments here. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, BALTIMORE MAYOR: We want -- we balance a very fine line between giving protesters, giving protesters peaceful

protesters space to protest. What I said is, in doing so, people can hijack that and use that space for bad. I did not say that we were

accepting of it.

I did not say that we were passive to it. I was just explaining how property damage can happen during a peaceful protest. It is very

unfortunate that members of your industry decided to mischaracterize my words and try to use it as a way to say that we are inciting violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Again, I do not want to take anything away from the poor mayor. I mean she seems like a competent person and she is trying her

best. Look at this video. It was posted to Twitter. It shows looters inside that CVS store that we think is on fire now.

They completely trashed it and then -- oh, my gosh -- seemingly burned it down. With the fire department being unable to get in there and do

their job with the looters cutting the hoses as they tried to put out the fire, there may be people in there for all we know. Judy, last comment.

HO: Well, you know, this is what speak to what we talk about as a catharsis theory of aggression, Dr. Drew. When you start to get angry and

aggress, it does not actually make you less angry, it makes you more angry.

PINSKY: No. That is right. It is not as you can discharge things like that and goes away. People get angry, they escalate and then they

feed off one another.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: Next up, more live from the scene in Baltimore.

And, later, more on the Bruce Jenner interview and the impact of his transition. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are furiously trying to get that hose hooked up, so that they can get the water in good enough amounts

on that fire at CVS.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: As far as they take that.

MARQUEZ: What does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It means it is behind you right now. Exactly. What is behind you now. See.

MARQUEZ: Did you see that? If you just saw that. They just -- while we were talking, they just cut the hose with a knife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa, Loni, and the breaking news, rioting in Baltimore. The governor declared a state of emergency. He is sending

in National Guard. Vanessa, is that going to escalate things or is that a god idea to try to bring some peace?

BARNETT: I think you mentioned it before that when you bring more into this situation, the first reaction is for people to be even more

enraged. But something has to be done.

PINSKY: Something has to be done.

BARNETT: They cannot just sit there and let these people take over the city. And, then I also do want to point out that there are people that

still need protection there too.

PINSKY: Right.

BARNETT: There are people that are scared for their lives.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: There are people that are involved that need the help.

PINSKY: That is who they are trying to protect.

BARNETT: And, I heard the churches are now getting involved. They have asked the men of the community to come out and actually help the

police officers and they are directing people, directing the police officers to where they need to go. So, this is a community that not

everyone wants to be on that side. They need help.

PINSKY: I got still on the scene there, CNN Correspondent Evan Perez. Evan, we are looking at a big fire in multiple buildings. Any more

information on what that is?

PEREZ: No. We still do not have a good look at what exactly -- what is the problem at that location.

PINSKY: How about the press? Has the press --

PEREZ: You know, there is a lot of police --

PINSKY: Has the press been cleared out because of the amount of violence in the area?

PEREZ: Well, we have had -- we have had to be more careful because there are, you know, there have been instances of reporters getting injured

in some of these situations and also the police and the fire are trying to get access to whatever is going on down there.

I mean, the police told us there are two officers who are still hospitalized as well, as you mentioned 15 officers were injured. And, so,

that is -- there is a very dangerous situation going on right now.

PINSKY: And, are you hearing anything of a worrisome nature as you sort of -- on the ground there, do you hear gunshots? Do you hear

screaming? Is it relatively quiet now other than the firefighters?

PEREZ: Other than the firefighters and, you know, the police trying to respond to this. It is really -- that is about it. And, what is going

on is it appears to be people are, you know, flaring up in different locations. They quickly move to another place and start trouble there.

The police are having a hard time trying to keep up exactly where next things is going to happen.

PINSKY: So sad. Thanks, Evan. Earlier today, the Baltimore police captain spoke about his officers having been attacked. Take a look at

this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. ERIC KOWALCZYK, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: This afternoon a group of outrageous criminals attacked our officers. Right now, we have

seven officers that have serious injuries, including broken bones and one officer who is unconscious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Vanessa, do you actually think this sort of demonstration is going to advance any sort of deeper understanding?

BARNETT: Of course not.

PINSKY: Right.

BARNETT: Of course not. But these are not the people that are out there doing the peaceful protests. These are not the people trying to send

a message that we want answers and that Freddie Gray`s death can be in vain. Like now the attention has focused -- has switched focus and is

unfortunate, because that community still deserves answers on Freddie Gray.

PINSKY: Well, you like the mayor, right? You like the Baltimore mayor, Vanessa. Would you take some sort of explanation from her?

BARNETT: I feel like in the things that I have seen her say -- I do like her. I think she is a competent woman, but I also think that she said

herself that she is waiting for the answers. No one has them yet. And, I think that is where some of this anger comes from.

PINSKY: Lon, I just do not see where this stops. You know, to me, every answer is met with more questions and more aggression.

COOMBS: Well, yes. And, the problem is, when you have it escalating to these riots, now the time, the energy, the resources, the focus that

should be on the real issue here are all diverted.

Because now you are talking about life or death situations, you know, with fires and people cutting the hoses, so they cannot put out the fires

and the rioting and the people getting injured and attack.

So, everybody is having to focus on that. And, so, those answers are being put on the back burner. People cannot focus on that while they are

having to deal with these critical issues right now.

PINSKY: And, now the aggression is sort of spilling out into social media. My friend, Carson Daly tweeted earlier today, quote, "It really

sucks to see all these looters ruining the great city of Baltimore. This is not the protest. This is a violent attack on your own city."

He then got a deluge of hate tweets. Now, you someone tweeted to him, "You deleted that tweet quickly, I see," which he had done. He pulled

down the tweet because of the aggression that he got.

He then responded, quote, "Not worth all the hate. The whole thing is sad to watch, all of it. I hope no more people get hurt. That is all."

Judy, you know, people are not listening to each other. They are just expressing aggression and hatred.

HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, I think, unfortunately, when people come to these protests, I think a lot of them are hoping for an

immediate solution or an immediate answer.

And, after a couple of days when you do not get it, there is going to be a couple people who say, "Well, let us bring this to the next level, so

we can get a reaction." And, of course, that is not how protests work, right, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: We cannot change the entire system with a couple days of peaceful protest.

PINSKY: No.

HO: It is only the beginning.

PINSKY: And, this is all a process. I am certainly no expert in this area, but watching the city of Baltimore burn down like this is not an

answer. People -- as Carson Daly said, they are attacking their own community. People they know are going to lose jobs because of their

assault on their own community. This is not how we solve problems.

I understand the frustration. It seems like we cannot go more than a day or so without hearing about a problem with police maltreatment of

African-Americans particularly. And, I think it is something that is now top of mind. It is certainly something that people are not going to let go

of. Let us see if we can find a sweet spot to answer, to solve these problems.

Next up, Bruce Jenner confirms what most have been suspecting and talking about for quite some time. You will hear from him.

And, later, Bobby Brown is taking legal action that would give him access to Bobbi Kristina`s money. Shocking. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE JENNER, KRIS JENNER`S EX-HUSBAND: No. I am very fortunate. I have a very loving family. We are very close. And, yes, I mean there is a

lot of characters and a lot of personalities that we deal, so -- you know a lots of things are happening. But, I do my best to try to keep everything

calm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE JENNER, KRIS KARDASHIAN`S EX-HUSBAND: You know, a lot of things are happening, but I do my best to try to keep everything calm.

(END VDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: There has been so much buzz about Bruce Jenner`s appearance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR (voice-over): His Adam`s apple changed. He is growing his hair out very long. His birthday, he showed up

with a bright manicure on his fingers. So, little bit here and there --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Radar Online reports that Bruce Jenner`s mother confirms her son is transitioning to becoming a woman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DYLAN HOWARD, RADAR ONLINE`S EDITORIAL DIRECTOR: That she supports him wholeheartedly. She went on to say, quote, "I just love him like I

always have."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Several sources are reporting that Olympic gold medalist turned Kim Kardashian`s stepfather will star in an

upcoming documentary style series for E! And that he will sit down for an interview with Diane Sawyer.

(END VIDEP CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): It is a two-hour primetime special. Speculation is that the interview will be about his extreme transformation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa and Loni, and our most tweeted story of the night. Bruce Jenner is now a woman. He hears what Jenner said in

an interview with ABC News` Diane Sawyer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE JENNER, KRIS JENNER`S EX-HUSBAND: For all intents and purposes, I am a woman. People look at me differently. They see you as this macho

male but my heart and my soul and everything that I do in life, it is part of me, that female side is part of me. That is who I am.

PINSKY: Joining my panel is Candis Cayne. She is a transgender actress. Candis, you seem to -- I have heard, understood something was

going on before the rest of us caught on. Tell me about that.

CANDIS CAYNE, TRANSGENDER ACTRESS: Well, I mean, it is just kind of an innate sense that us transwomen have, you know. I sensed something was

happening years ago but, of course, everybody has to transition at their own pace.

PINSKY: How do you feel about the way he has done this? The way he did it. It seemed like it was conscious that he and the family allowed

information to trickle out. We all sort of became used to it and then, boom, does a comprehensive interview? Was that the right way to go about

this? Is the transgender community behind what he is doing?

CAYNE: Well, I mean I do not think that Bruce had any choice. I mean he is a national figure. He is a public figurer. He is hounded by the

paparazzi daily. How else do you supposed to deal with this other than face it head on and try to make it work to your best way it can work.

PINSKY: Yes. Judy, I agree with Candis. And, what does he supposed to do? Fade off into the woods. He has to be public about this. Everyone

is going to figure it out. There is going to be pictures. Why not deal with straight on.

The people are questioning, though, whether his motivation was solely to come clean with this in the shadow of him coming up with the reality

series and what not the motivation seems a little bit uncertain.

HO: Dr. Drew, I do not believe that is untrue at all. He talks about the fact that he knew when he was a little child, when he was 7 or 8,

wanting to put on the dresses of his sister and his mom. And that is my experience with the gender dysphoric individuals I have worked with that

there is a sense that they know, something does not feel right as young as 4 or 5 years old sometimes.

PINSKY: Now, Judy, he said that gender dysphoria or that being a transgender identifying is such is not a mental illness. And, yet gender

dysphoria is in the DSM-5. I spoke to psychiatrist earlier today.

He said, if you do not have the dysphoric component, it really is not a mental illness. It is just a gender identification. Candis, does that

make sense to you ? Can you clarify that for people that may have difficulty understanding it?

CAYNE: Well, I mean, to me as a transwoman, there is nothing wrong with me. I have always been a good, normal, viable person in the society.

And, the idea that saying that what I am and who I am is some sort of dysmorphia is --

PINSKY: Well, dysmorphia is a different thing. That is a different thing. However, did you see -- you made me think about dysmorphia,

Candis. I wonder how you felt about this when Bruce held up the dress that he wanted to wear and it was so tiny. It was like his body image did not

fit the clothing he planned to be in. I thought, "Wow, could that be a dysmorphia in addition to the gender identity issue?"

CAYNE: It was a cute dress. I do not know what to say about that. Other than, you know, maybe Bruce is still just trying to be a little bit

private about what he wears and how he goes about doing things.

PINSKY: vanessa, does this all make sense to you? We have been dragging you into mental health awareness and behavioral spectrum. Are you

-- got your head around this one?

BARNETT: No. In all honesty, I do not. I do not think I will ever fully understand it. I hear you talk about the dysmorphia side versus the

--

PINSKY: Yes -- versus dysphoria. Versus the identity.

BARNETT: Right. Versus the identity. I watched the entire special. I thought Diane Sawyer was fantastic.

PINSKY: Yes. It was a great interview.

BARNETT: And I just --

PINSKY: You do not get it.

BARNETT: I want him to be able to live in his truth. And, whatever that is, that is up for him to determine.

PINSKY: Of course.

BARNETT: I think that he should be respected. I felt hurt when I saw the paparazzi were screaming at him and whistling, and things of that

nature. I think that was too far.

PINSKY: Yes. He is a sensitive man. A genuine man too, a woman now.

BARNETT: Exactly.

PINSKY: You can tell. He is a very sensitive person.

BARNETT: He seem anything puppy, but as for me, no. I still do not fully understand.

PINSKY: All right. And, then the other issue just to complicate things for you, Vanessa, there is this issue of sexual orientation, which

is different from gender identification. And, Diane Sawyer asked Jenner about this. I thought she handle this rather well. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: If you were male and you become female but you like women, are you a lesbian? Are you a heterosexual who --

JENNER: You are going back to the sex thing. And, it is apples and oranges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, ultimately he identified it as asexual. But, Candis, help Vanessa with this part of it.

CAYNE: Well, I mean it is really -- I know it seems confusing for a lot of people but your identity as your gender is completely different than

your sexual identity.

PINSKY: How do you identify, Candis.

CAYNE: I identify straight.

PINSKY: Which means you are sexually attracted to --

CAYNE: Men.

PINSKY: To men at this point.

CAYNE: Yes.

PINSKY: And, I am also curious how the men that are attracted to you identify themselves. Do they identify --

CAYNE: Straight when they look at me.

PINSKY: No. I understand. How would woman that are attracted to Bruce Jenner identify themselves.

CAYNE: Lesbians.

PINSKY: Lesbians. So --

CAYNE: I mean as soon as Bruce decides to take the final steps, Bruce is going to be sleeping with women, which makes her lesbian.

PINSKY: Right. I think he has nod fully decided. Loni, I did not have the chance to talk to you. I will get you in the next block here.

But, that is another piece of this whole process. It tends to unroll. It does not necessarily happen all at once.

And, people are confused why he was not able to say. I am going to get this surgery or I had that surgery. He is in the process and he is

making these determinations as he goes along. Only 30 percent of people who identify as transgender ever have any surgeries. And, yet they are

perfectly comfortable in their transgender role.

Next up, new interview with Kim Kardashian about Bruce`s transition. You will hear from her.

And, later, legal maneuvering from Bobbi Kristina`s father, Bobby Brown. Is he after her money? After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LARRY KING, LATE NIGHT SHOW HOST: Bruce, how do you deal with all of that?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE JENNER, KRIS JENNER`S EX-HUSBAND: No. I am very fortunate. I have a very loving family. We are very close. And, yes, I mean there is a

lot of characters and a lot of personalities that we deal, so -- I know a lots of things are happening. But, I do my best to try to keep everything

calm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa and Loni and our transgender actress, Candis Cayne. Bruce Jenner revealed he is transitioning to female in

interview with ABC News, Diane Sawyer. Here is more of that interview. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNER: I look it at this way. Bruce always telling a lie. He has lived a lie his whole life about who he is. And, I cannot do that any

longer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Loni, it really was not very poignant interview, was not it? I mean, you see him as a very genuine real guy -- woman now.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: And, a person who has been in pain for quite some time.

COOMBS: For a long time, Dr. Drew. And, I think has put that, you know, aside because he loved his family, he loved his children and was

thinking about them. And, you know, I was brought the tears during the interview when he had his four older children, who told the producers we

want to come on and show our support for our father. And, you know what? I think as Vanessa talked about -- I think it is hard for everyone.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: You know, the first time around to get your mind around it and think especially for these children, these young people who are his

children and have known him to be dad all of these years. And, yet, the way they are standing up for him and showing him love and support and are

going to be him through this. I think it is just so admirable for them and the courage that Bruce is showing for being able to speak out this way.

And, you know, I understand people are always cynical in our day and age. But, I saw a lot of sincerity there, a lot of relief from pain, you

know, at having this secret forever and that the hope of being able to have this new life for himself and find this happiness.

PINSKY: And, Candis, does it bother you or surprise you that people have difficulty getting their head around it or does it make sense to you?

I mean you lived with this most of your life. So, I imagine it makes more sense to you since you live with it. But for people who may not be

familiar with it, trying to understand it, is it troubling to you that they have such difficulty?

CAYNE: I think people are just scared about what they do not know. For me, it is something that I have lived with my entire life. So, I

understand it. I embrace it.

PINSKY: But, I want to stop you. Can you understand like Vanessa is having trouble getting her head around it. Can you understand that, that

is hard for Vanessa because she is not familiar with it.

CAYNE: Well, I mean if things are confusing when people do not understand them, that does not mean that they are wrong or that there is

something bad about it. It is just different than you. I mean I did not wake up when I was a kid and be completely present in who I was as my

identity.

I had to search my soul on a daily basis and try to figure out who I was. Most people do not ever have to do that. They figure out what they

are going to wear, what boyfriends they are going to like. They do not have to go and go to their core and figure out who they are as a human

being. I mean it is hard for people to understand that.

PINSKY: NBC`s "Today" show talked to Kim Kardashian about her stepfather, Bruce Jenner. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM KARDASHIAN, BRUCE JENNER`S STEPDAUGHTER: I am really happy for him that he is living his life the way he wants to live it. And, that he

has found inner peace and just pure happiness. That is what life is about. I do not know what life would be like if you always felt like you were not

yourself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, Jenner told Diane Sawyer that Kim had walked in on him wearing women`s clothing, but they, quote, "Did not speak about it for

ages." Judy, that must have been a tough family secret to hold and who knows how Kim felt about that for a long time. She seems remarkably OK

with it now.

HO: That is right. Maybe she had a little bit of time to process it and now it makes sense to her. And, honestly, when you watch the interview

with Bruce Jenner, he just seems really at peace of himself, really comfortable talking about it.

And, it took him 65 years, Dr. Drew to get to this place. Even though he struggled so much with it, even at times feeling suicidal. And, I think

this is kind of the progression of what this is life for people who have gender identity issues for some of their life. And, when it gets to the

other side, it is so much better.

PINSKY: And, Candis, Judy brings up suicide ideality. It is a very high percentage of people with this sorts of phenomena feel suicidal at

some point. Did you ever feel that way.

CAYNE: I personally did not feel that way because I had a huge support system with my parents and brother and my sister-in-law. It was an

amazing thing for me but that is, you know, that is the thing about this kind of interview with Diane Sawyer.

PINSKY: How old were you when you came forward with this?

CAYNE: My first thought of it when I was around 7. But, I did not materialize that until I was in my early 20s.

PINSKY: And, so you are in your early 20s and you sit your entire family down and give it to them in one presentation or do you sort of hint

at it for a while? How did you go about that?

CAYNE: Well, for me personally, there was no Google --

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Right, right.

CAYNE: -- at that age. So, I just assumed because I was attracted to men and I was a man that I was just gay. And, then I came out as gay and

then I realized that I was completely still unhappy. And I had one of those, you know, come to Jesus moments where I was like, "No, I am supposed

to be a woman." And, that is when I came out to them again.

PINSKY: Had you heard about it somewhere? Or did it occur to you spontaneously? Have you read about it?

CAYNE: Well, I was in -- of course I thought about it. I did not know how to vocalize it. But my living in New York City and the club

scene, I saw girls that were going through this transition.

PINSKY: Got it. Got it.

CAYNE: And I thought, "Oh, this makes sense. You can do that."

PINSKY: All right, Candis, thanks so much for joining us. My thoughts on this are, I thought Diane Sawyer did a great job. I thought

people are going to be a little critical of her not going in deeper on some of the issues. There may have been limitations on what he was willing to

do. And, well, he should have that ability to say what he will and will not talk about.

She dealt with the important issues very well, very clearly without going for any low hanging fruit. At no point took the low road with this

entire process. I think he when the day is done will have done something good for transgender individuals. In that, here we are talking about it

constantly. Any television show, every radio station, everyone is discussing it.

It is top of mind and is becoming far less stigmatized, in my opinion, as a result. So, you may have ambivalence about somebody who does reality

shows but when the day is done, I think it will be a net positive.

Next up, Nick Gordon back on Twitter, what he is saying about Bobbi Kristina.

And later, is Brian Williams` career over? The human lie detector is here to analyze what he had said. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Bobby Brown is just ignoring his decision. He does not want to make it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: I would like to believe, in fact I do believe wholeheartedly that Bobby Brown is smart enough and man enough and strong enough to make

the decision if the quality of life was going to be severely interrupted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: He is not going to take her off the machine. He is not going to fight to keep her off the machines. He is literally going to

letting go, let God.

PINSKY: We are not letting God, because God will let her go. We are very active, Vanessa, in keeping her alive. That is not letting God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICCI GILBERT-DANIELS, R&B ARTIST: I hope that bobby brown makes the call. I hope that everyone just allows this man to be the father, the

loving father that he is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa, Loni and a segment we call, "Celebrity Behavior." Atlanta T.V. station, WXIA is reporting Bobby Brown

is seeking legal guardianship over his daughter`s estate.

A lawyer for Cissy Houston says, quote, "We hope to resolve this in a manner that is respectful of Bobbi Kristina`s sensitive health information.

The Houston family is always lookout for the best interest of Bobbi Kristina Brown. We trust that others have the same objective." Loni, is

this request legitimate and exactly what is it that he wants?

COOMBS: Well, I cannot attribute what motive he has behind him. However, there is a legitimate basis for this. Look, this money is kind of

limbo right now . There is a built-in conflict in what Whitney Houston wanted to have done with her money.

We are talking about $20 million here. She said that Bobby has the right to determine the medical decisions over Bobbi Kristina but then Cissy

Houston, the grandmother, would be over the money and would give the money at certain periods of time to Bobbi Kristina and if Bobbi Kristina died,

all the money goes back to Cissy Houston.

PINSKY: Cissy and the brothers, right?

COOMBS: Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: And, to the brothers. But here we have a situation where we are stuck in limbo because Bobbi Kristina, cannot determine for herself

where the money should go, obviously. But it does not go to Cissy Houston and the brothers because she has not died.

So, who is going to take care of the money? Who is going to decide what to do with the money? And, as we know, Bobbi Kristina, as long as she

stays in limbo does need medical care and who is going to pay for that?

PINSKY: So, Loni, hold on -- yes, I know. This is going to get ridiculous after a while.

COOMBS: Right.

PINSKY: Do you think Cissy is making a claim on the other side?

COOMBS: Well, we do not know. She is not saying that. And, what she said in the statement that came out, look, essentially, she recognizes that

as long as Bobbi Kristina is in this state, she needs medical care and it costs money.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: So, she is helping to work it out, not with all of the money going to you know, Bobbi --

PINSKY: And, she could go through that money with this care pretty easily.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: This is some of the tragedy of people being in these chronic states. Judy, you know, here we are, this is what I predicted. It is

going to be a horrible tragedy where the individual, the patient, is in a state that none of us would ever wish to be in. Now, they are going to

fight over the money and the money is part of it or maybe all of it will go into the care of somebody who is never going to get better.

HO: Right. And, you know, right now they are estimating $20 million or so in the estate. And, how much of that is going to go to this medical

care and how long are they going to keep her on here?

PINSKY: And, the whole thing could. It is a young girl.

HO: Exactly. We do not know.

PINSKY: To keep up -- This is not somebody with consciousness.

HO: That is right. And, so, because she cannot speak up about it, everybody is in limbo. And, then it becomes a whole entirely different

thing, Dr. Drew. Where is the grieving and processing of her life in monitoring that?

PINSKY: Never. Never. It never happens. It is just ongoing misery. Vanessa, now, do you begin to understand what I was talking about? This is

precisely what I knew would happen. This is precisely what I was fearful of. This is what I have tried to save other patients from. This is what I

saved my own father from. And, here we are, where this is going to be this horrible, horrible chronic state with everybody in misery now.

BARNETT: I understand what you are saying, but she is alive.

PINSKY: Should not we let God do his thing before? I mean he is going to --

BARNETT: Who is to say this is not God`s plan? I do not think you can say that.

PINSKY: Well, we made sure -- we are the ones that took over and made this God`s plan by using machines and intervening in ways that are so

aggressive.

BARNETT: By using the doctors that he has here on earth. Look, we could debate that all day long. But at the end of the day, she is still

alive, she does still need the care and you cannot go pulling plugs. Now, there are no plugs to pull. She is breathing on her own.

PINSKY: Right. Right. She is in a limbo state. Danine wrote a great tweet. Can we put that out there, again. She said basically, "Leave

everything in God`s hands except the money." Leave everything in God`s hands, except for the money. I see. Right, Danine. Exactly.

Now, Nick Gordon back on Twitter he posted this message, quote, "Back like I left something." I do not know what that means. This is his first

appearance on social media since he went into treatment. Vanessa, are you hearing anything? Is he still in treatment? I hope he is. That kid needs

a lot of ongoing care.

BARNETT: I hope he is still in treatment. And, just to help you out. "Back like I left something" is a little slang. You know, when you return

if you leave something somewhere you go back to where you left it. A little slang for me.

PINSKY: Man, I feel uncool. I know I have always feel uncool, but I really feel uncool.

BARNETT: And I think he is saying that he is back. He thinks he is better than ever and I think he is definitely going to try to see Bobbi

Kristina.

PINSKY: Oh man, that will be interesting.

All right. Next, it is not looking good for Brian Williams` comeback. And, if you want to see more about this story and others, please follow us

on Facebook. We also have our after-show there. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: New information on Brian Williams` suspension. Now, that it is approaching its third month.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS ANCHOR: The helicopter we were traveling in was forced down after being hit down by an RPG.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANINE DRIVER, KNOWN AS "HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: A lie is a lie is a lie. He is lying. This is not if there is a Santa Claus or an Easter Bunny.

Listen, he said a couple things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: This was a bungled attempt by me to thank one special Veteran. They have my greatest respect and also now my apology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKIE WRIGHT, FOUNDER, BRING BACK BRIAN WILLIAMS` FACEBOOK PAGE: Brian is like a beacon of hope and a positivity if you will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELSEY WILLIS, BRIAN WILLIAMS SUPPORTER: And, at the end of the day, he is a part of my family. He was the only constant thing in my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP0

PINSKY: Should his career be over?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa and Loni. Joining us, Janine Driver, the "Human lie detector." NBC anchor, Brian Williams, suspended

for having made a claim about his war coverage that turned out to be false. Tonight, there is new information on the network is investigation into a

series of alleged exaggerations. Vanessa, give me some details about this.

BARNETT: Yes, so, we are hearing that these new details are coming from a leak from an NBC executive. And, we are also hearing that they

reportedly uncovered ten possible fabrications. This is getting kind of crazy. And, they are about dodging the rocket fire, seeing the floating

body in Katrina, more war stories that he may have fabricated.

We are also hearing that there was speculation that if he were to resign, they were going to give him $30 million but now we are hearing that

new boss at NBC actually wants him to come back and Brian said he is not going anywhere unless he gets fired.

PINSKY: Loni, do you have any inside info on this? Are they trying to save tens of millions of dollars in severance pay?

COOMBS: Well, of course. If they have to sever it, if they decide that they do not want him to come back, it is always about the money and

trying to save money. And, he had signed apparently a $50 million contract. So, they are trying to, you know, anywhere between $20 to $30

million.

PINSKY: So, is that why they are leaking the information to disparage him further or make a case against him so they will not have to pay him?

COOMBS: Well, here is the thing. I think that, that report that they compile, this investigative report, that said there is a tangible 11 war

exaggerations, that is leverage. To say, "Look, we have all this stuff hanging over your head. And, if you do not agree to the number we want, we

are going to release it." However, now that it is leaked, it kind of takes away the power of that leverage.

PINSKY: Interesting.

COOMBS: So, I do not think the management leaked that. It might have been somebody else. We are not sure of it, though.

PINSKY: Interesting. Now, Janine, tell me about the kind of lying this was. You said a liar is a liar. But, I understand you break down

lying into different categories. And, he fits one particular category.

JANINE DRIVER, THE HUMAN LIE DETECTOR": Right. So, there is four different types of liars, Dr. Drew. There is a pro-social and anti-social.

Pro-social is the what we call the white lie, anti-social is the bully. Self-enhancement, these are the types of lies where, you know -- think

about it, when do we -- we get a breast implant, self-enhanced, right? We make ourselves look better.

PINSKY: Is it exaggeration self-enhancement?

DRIVER: Yes, a self-enhancement is something, Dr. Drew, that does not cause pain necessarily to someone else but does enhance you. It makes you

look better.

PINSKY: So, that is Brian Williams. That is his thing.

DRIVER: Yes. However --

PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead.

DRIVER: However, the next lie is a selfish lie, which is one step away from anti-social. And, if you are a military person who has actually

been shot at or a family member who has lost someone in the military, you may look at Brian Williams` lie as a selfish lie, which is a selfish lie

causes harm to someone else and you gain something from it.

But, here is really important, not only the type of lies are out there, Dr, Drew, with Brian Williams` original account of the story with

being shot down, the original, the truthful version, he blinked 37 times in 25 seconds. This is his baseline.

When he apologized recently, just a couple months ago, his blink rate and 25 seconds was 30 blinks. That is his average blink rate. We think

people who lie have an increase in blink rate. Not our buddy here, Brian Williams. His blink rate when lying decreases.

When he talked on Letterman in 2013 and exaggerated about being shot down, he blinked 12 times in 35 seconds. And, when he talked about seeing

a body floating down in Hurricane Katrina in 2006 interview, he blinked once again 15 times out of 25 seconds.

This is important for people to know at home. Just because someone blinks a lot does not mean they are lying. Here sometimes people staring

you in the eye, "You call me a cheater, what kind of person do you think I am?" Some cheaters give you extra eye contact. And, that is what we see

with Brian Williams.

PINSKY: I was smiling because Vanessa never blinks. But, Judy does that makes sense with you from a psychological -- from somebody with, you

know, a clinical degree.

HO: Sure. And, for myself, I blink all the time no matter what. So, you know, I do not think that applies necessarily to me.

PINSKY: I like that we are all commenting about our own blinking. I have dry eyes, everybody. I blink a lot. I got dry eyes.

(LAUGHING)

HO: Exactly. Me, too. But, you know, Dr. Drew, I think it is important to think about the fact that he may not be deliberately

fabricating. There is a lot of research about false memories. And, a lot of them, they are not intentional. It is about combining true issues along

with other dotted information you have gone along the way. And, I know that that is still a possibility here that we must consider.

PINSKY: Yes. Memory is imperfect for sure. And, maybe he did on some level think this was really what happened to him and that a little bit

of exaggeration as Janine is saying, and the blinking is evidence that something might have been going on there.

Thank you, panel. Thank you, Janine as always. You can of course DVR us, then watch us anytime. Be sure to join us on our Facebook page for our

After Show. "Forensic Files" begins now.

END