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U.S. Drones Kill American Hostage, Terrorists; Freddie Gray Community Members: Crime Cameras at Scene Did Not Work; Freddie Gray's Funeral Set For Monday; Interview With Friend of American Hostage Killed In Drone Strike. Aired 14:30-15p ET
Aired April 23, 2015 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[14:32:28] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. We're following breaking news out of Washington where President Obama has confirmed three Americans, one hostage and two terrorists, have been killed, all of them inadvertently.
This the result of drone strikes near the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. The operations happened in January and targeted al Qaeda associated hot spots along the border there. One of the Americans killed was a hostage captured by al Qaeda in 2011, U.S. contractor Warren Weinstein. Another hostage, the Italian national, Giovanni Lo Porto, was killed alongside him. The two other Americans killed in these drone strikes were al Qaeda operatives, including Adam Gadahn, a native Californian, who became a key spokesman to the West for the terror group. The White House said intelligence officials did not know the hostages were in the buildings targeted by these drone strikes. President Obama saying today that he takes, quote, "full responsibility" as he apologized to the American people and the families of the victims.
CNN has also learned that Mr. Obama did not specifically authorize these drone strikes but that they were executed according to the administration within proper guidelines. That's only fueling more debate about the overall use of drones.
With me now, CNN's Atika Shubert.
Atika, this has been a long-running controversy, not just here in the states and in Europe, but certainly on the ground in the countries where these strikes take place. Extreme sensitivity to the civilian casualties. It's a big source of anti-Americanism. I know in my own experience in Pakistan, the drone strikes in particular. Why so much? What's the state of that debate today?
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been ongoing for a while, as you point out. Actually, the drone program had decreased significantly. At its height around 2010, there were more than 100 strikes. I think it was an estimated 120 or something drone strikes. That's a drone strike every two or three days. Since then, we have seen that drop dramatically. In fact, last year the whole drone program in Pakistan was put on pause as the Pakistani government was pursuing peace talks with the Taliban. But it ramped up again in June. This year, there have already been an estimated seven strikes. We believe now that it was a strike on January 15th, which may have killed the hostages. So clearly, this will spark the debate exactly on how do you get a target, how is that decision made, and why are we seeing so many of these drone strikes still being carried out?
SCIUTTO: Yes, it's -- in both these cases, you have two drone strikes: the one that killed the two hostages, plus the al Qaeda leader, Ahmed Farouq, and a separate strike that killed Adam Gadahn just a few days later, January 19th and January 15th.
[14:35:15] When you look at these cases -- and I believe our Pam Brown is joining us now as well. Pam, are you there?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: I'm here with you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Here's a real issue. You have the American and the Italian hostage who were killed, this is a horrible mistake. You have two American members of al Qaeda who were killed, Adam Gadahn and Ahmed Farouq, but there's a very severe legal process that the U.S. government did not go through on them, which would have been required if you're killing Americans, summary execution, in effect. They didn't go through because they said they didn't know they were in those buildings. How complicated is that process? And how much of a problem is it that these Americans were killed but did not have the legal backing to do so?
BROWN: Well, from a legal standpoint, Jim, it is a problem because as you point out, the Obama administration has set forth a number of steps that officials must go through in order to get approval to kill an American through a drone strike. We've learned, Jim, through our sources we've been speaking with today, that that approval process did not take place for either Ahmed Farouq or Adam Gadahn.
But the administration will tell you, well, this wasn't an intentional targeted killing. We didn't know they were in that compound, all we knew were that there were senior al Qaeda members in there, we didn't know their identities, which of course in and of itself, could raise some controversy too, or questions about whether or not we need to know more specifics.
As we know, Jim, it's not a perfect science. Even though they reach a near-certain assessment, intelligence can be imprecise. It's not a perfect science. I think that's part of what makes the drone program controversial, though the Obama administration will tell you it was within its legal bounds with these drone strikes and that there have been several examples where it's taken out terrorists who are a great threat to the United States.
SCIUTTO: Well, the intelligence wrong here on all counts, really, who the al Qaeda targets were who were killed and certainly having those hostages present at that site. But intelligence is difficult. It's never perfect, as you say, Pam.
Pamela Brown, Atika Shubert, great to have you both.
Brooke, back to you. The number of questions raised by this, there's going to be a serious investigation, it's going to take a long time to answer these questions, principally for the families involved.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: The family obviously has many, many questions. We're going to talk about why these eight surveillance cameras in this one neighborhood, why not a single one captured a lick of this arrest.
Again, just a reminder to all of you, we're here live in Baltimore this afternoon. We're anticipating protesters will be gathering for this rally here at City Hall, as they are angry. They're expressing outrage over the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray. That's the man who died after his spine was severed after this confrontation with Baltimore police. We mentioned those surveillance cameras in the neighborhood. Why weren't the moments leading up to Freddie Gray's death caught on camera? It's a question a lot of people here want answers to. Stay here. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.
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[14:42:30] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We're live here in Baltimore. The mayor of this city has pledged, and I'm quoting her, "transparency and accountability." Several people who live near this arrest scene claim there are multiple street cameras that could have recorded what happened and they are skeptical that not one of those eight cameras caught any of the arrest back on April 12th.
Joining me now, "Baltimore Sun" investigative reporter Mark Puente, has written extensively about police brutality cases here in the city of Baltimore. Nice to have you back on the show. We'll get to your piece and this investigation and money paid out.
But my first question to you as I was reading the Sun this morning, and one of your colleagues had a piece just about speaking with, and we're not going to name him, but speaking to one of the eyewitnesses of the arrest. It was his cell phone that was rolling. We've seen some of his video, describing the arrest, describing Freddie Gray, looking like he was twisted like origami. What more did he see, and especially, what more did he see that we have not seen?
MARK PUENTE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE BALTIMORE SUN: He said that when he ran outside, he was awoken, that Mr. Gray was being arrested. He said he ran out there. Freddie Gray was planted face down in the ground, an officer had a knee on his back, another one had him handcuffed and another officer was bending his legs backwards towards his back and he was being told to stop resisting but the friend of Mr. Gray said he wasn't resisting at all.
BALDWIN: The other issue that was brought up in that piece are those eight surveillance cameras. The people in this neighborhood are saying there are these eight surveillance cameras that the city has placed for precisely this reason and not a single one of them, they're skeptical that not a single one of them caught the arrest. In fact, one person was quoted as saying, "If I were to commit a crime, they would have every angle. It doesn't make any sense that these cameras work, but when police do something, they don't." What do you know about these cameras?
PUENTE: I don't know anything about them. Typically in law enforcement, they don't release videos right away. You have to wonder if it's part of the investigation, whether it captured something, that's the million dollar question that I would assume that'll come out at some point.
BALDWIN: I'm hearing, and maybe you don't know this either, that they're like automatic, robotic cameras.
PUENTE: They can be zoomed in if someone is watching it, if someone picks something up.
BALDWIN: Let's talk about the mayor here, Stephanie Rawlings- Blake. She's been criticized for being too calm, handling all this too calmly. She's actually responded to this criticism. Let me quote her saying, "Screaming and yelling is not going to get the Gray family the answers they're looking for." Are you hearing this sort of chorus of she needs to be banging her hands on desk a little louder?
PUENTE: People are saying that, but who am I to critique the mayor for her demeanor, her emotion? You know, she leads how she leads in. When we did our series of stories, she showed the same demeanor, didn't get excited or upset and she said what she had to say.
[14:45:05] BALDWIN: She says progress is being made, but your piece on these city lawsuits, in the millions, the last two weeks paying out $255,000. If the mayor is saying that that's all going down, what have you found?
PUENTE: We found that lawsuits have dropped some in the past two years. They've dropped about 20 percent. But one key that people should know is there's a cap in Maryland at $200,000. If someone gets that lawsuit, they can't get 2 or 3 million, it's very hard to get above that. So that cap could save the taxpayers of this city potentially millions of dollars. If it was in another jurisdiction like Texas where there's no cap, it could have been four or five times higher.
BALDWIN: So the settlements are still happening, they're just not quite as expensive - they're capped.
PUENTE: Still happening, right. There was also two of them, jury awards recently, for 2.3 million and one for 600,000 that will be appealed. If they're unsuccessful, it'll make it go up.
BALDWIN: Mark Puente, thank you so much, with "The Baltimore Sun." As we continue our conversations with you all at the paper here
in Baltimore, let me go to my colleague, Joe Johns, who's also here next to me in the City Hall area.
Joe, you're getting some information on Freddie Gray's funeral. What are you learning?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's absolutely right, Brooke. With me right now is Reverend Jamal Bryant of Empowerment Tempo here in Baltimore, it's an AME church.
You have some new information about where this funeral is going to be held and what time it's going to be held. Could you share that with us?
REV. JAMAL BRYANT, PASTOR, EMPOWERMENT TEMPO: Absolutely. The funeral is going to be Monday morning at 11:00 a.m. at the New Shiloh Baptist Church on Monroe Street, which is within walking distance from the community where it all took place.
JOHNS: My understanding is there are some concerns about finances for this family and the ability to put together a funeral, a memorial service, but you have figured out a way to cover the costs. Can you talk to me about that?
BRYANT: Absolutely. I think the conflict is that the police are on paid vacation and really ought to be contributing to the family's financial issues. But because they have not stepped up, Empowerment Temple AME Church is going to pay for, my church, is going to pay for the funeral and the burial.
JOHNS: That's your church?
BRYANT: Yes.
JOHNS: Okay. So as far as I can tell, Freddie Gray was not a member of New Shiloh, and I have talked to Reverend Harold Carter over there, was he a member of your church? Did he have any association with you?
BRYANT: He was not a member of the church, he was a member of the community and I think that's the responsibility of all of our churches to really step in and meet the need.
JOHNS: Now -- but he did attend your church. Is that right? From time to time?
BRYANT: Yes, on occasion, but was never a member of our church.
JOHNS: His girlfriend attended the church.
BRYANT: Yes. Absolutely.
JOHNS: The larger concerns here in the community, I know out at one of the protests last night, I did hear a lot of concerns about streets being barricaded and the restrictions that have been put on people who are trying to express their emotions about this case. You, too, have expressed some of those concerns.
BRYANT: Absolutely. It's provocation, really. They're forgetting that we are freedom of speech. If you look around, we're coming today peaceably. We've not had any record of any public disruption, but it's hard for us to even assemble with everything -- barricaded just this afternoon, they released all of the employees and sent a missive out to downtown workers to please leave at 2:00 because they weren't sure what's going to happen, police are coming in riot gear, expecting the worst when the citizens of this community have shown the absolute best.
JOHNS: Reverend Jamal Bryant, thank you so much for sharing that information.
Brooke, what we do know is that funeral will be 11:00 here in town at New Shiloh Church. The expectations for protests continue, at least for now.
Brooke.
BALDWIN: That's right. We're watching in the next half hour or so, we're anticipating a number of people to show up. I'm seeing some folks carrying posters, "Justice for Freddie Gray." But we're here for that, we're going to cover that when it happens. For now, Joe Johns, thank you.
Jim Sciutto, to you in Washington.
SCIUTTO: Thanks, Brooke. The other story we're following, of course, the accidental killing of an American hostage of al Qaeda in Pakistan by a U.S. drone strike. I'm going to speak shortly with a friend of Warren Weinstein, the American hostage killed in that strike in Afghanistan along the Pakistan border. What he says about trying many times and failing to secure his friend's release. That's right after this break.
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[14:51:54] SCIUTTO: Back now to our breaking news. A U.S. drone strike targeting an al Qaeda compound in January this year accidentally killed two innocent hostages, one of them the American Warren Weinstein. Weinstein was 73, focused on helping Pakistani families. He was abducted by al Qaeda back in 2011. Weinstein's family understandably devastated by the news. Here's what his wife, Elaine, said in a statement.
"We do not yet fully understand all of the facts surrounding Warren's death but we do understand that the U.S. government will be conducting an independent investigation of the circumstances. We look forward to the results of that investigation. But those who took Warren captive over three years ago bear ultimate responsibility."
Former ambassador Dan Simpson met Warren Weinstein in central Africa back in 1968, they've been friends ever since.
Dan, great to have you on. I just want to extend our thoughts here at CNN to you and Warren's family on what must be just a very difficult and sad day.
DAN SIMPSON, FRIEND OF WARREN WEINSTEIN: Thank you very much for asking me to be on. I welcome the opportunity to pay tribute to Warren. This was a man who basically dedicated his life to service, to people in general, but especially to people in countries where the standard of living was low and difficult. I met him first in Burundi, but his most recent experience had been in Pakistan. It's tragic that he was killed the way he was.
SCIUTTO: No question. A man who dedicated his life to helping other people in difficult and dangerous places. Dan, you could hear in his wife Elaine's statement a frustration with U.S. government efforts to get him freed. This is a frustration I've heard from other families who have had their loved ones taken, whether it be by terrorist groups or militant groups in countries. I wonder if you feel and the family feels satisfied with the efforts that the U.S. made to win his release before the horrible events that we learned about today.
SIMPSON: Well, I don't know in particular what they did, but for me, I revisited the question in 2014, last year, when the United States exchanged some of its prisoners at Guantanamo for Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl. Now, I'm not saying they shouldn't have done that, but the question that entered my mind then was if they could do that for him, why couldn't they do something comparable for a man who dedicated his life to service, who was 73 years old, who was not in good health, and so on? I guess I don't -- if you ask me, do I think the United States did as much as it could to free him? I would say no.
SCIUTTO: Our own Peter Bergen, terror analyst, who's been covering al Qaeda for more than a decade, met Osama bin Laden, has reported that there was an idea at least of somehow connecting the Bergdahl transfer to the case of Warren Weinstein, although they were held by different groups, that there was an effort led by a team in the Pentagon that was trying that. I wonder if you heard about any such efforts to connect those two so that the exchange might have involved more people.
[14:55:20] SIMPSON: No, I had not heard about that. Although, our Congressman from Pittsburgh, Mike Doyle, was in contact with John Kerry, the secretary of state, on the subject of Weinstein, of Warren Weinstein, and I would have thought that they would have told either one or the both of them if there had been such attempts. I don't know -- I mean, obviously I don't know who held him. But I think the idea of trading some of these people at Guantanamo, whom we want to get rid of anyway, for American hostages is not a bad or an original idea.
SCIUTTO: Dan, I wonder, you know, often in these stories, the truth of the person can be lost in the breaking news. You knew him well. You knew him for more than 40 years. Just before we leave you, what's one of your fondest memories of Warren Weinstein?
SIMPSON: Warren Weinstein was very sympathetic to the people of Burundi. Now Burundi is a small, rather obscure African country. But Warren made a supreme effort to get to know the people of this country, you know, and to be able to explain them to me, who was a new arrival there.
The other thing about Warren was he was a very humble person. In Burundi he drove a beat up old Volkswagen Beetle. He's just an inquiring mind and a gentle soul. I mean, think about him working in Lahore, Pakistan, as he's into his mid-70s. Because he loved the work. I mean, this is a special person. This is the kind of person that should be representing the United States overseas.
SCIUTTO: Well, he dedicated his life to service in a dangerous place, and he lost his life --
SIMPSON: And we killed him, you know. It wasn't intentional, I don't suppose, but we killed him.
SCIUTTO: No, certainly not intentional, but a sad fact, the U.S. killed its own here.
Dan Simpson, thanks so much for being on. This is a story we're going to stay on. Please stay with us.
After this break, we will have an interview, his first since this news broke, with Senator John McCain. Please stay with us.
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[14:59:55] SCIUTTO: Welcome. I'm Jim Sciutto live in Washington for CNN's special coverage of our breaking news. Two hostages, including an American, killed accidentally along with two American al Qaeda operatives by U.S. drone strikes.
