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Robert Bates Vows Shooting was a Mistake; Aaron Hernandez Jurors Speak Out. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 17, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have taken the third largest airport in Yemen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty of murder in the first degree.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury speaks out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have got to make that decision to either put him away or let him go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Friday, April 17, 8:00 in the east. Alisyn and Michaela are off. Poppy and J.B. are with me this morning. We have history of the wrong kind being made. Loretta Lynch is still waiting on a vote on whether or not she will be the first African-American attorney general in U.S. history, 160 days.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It is a historic delay and it has infuriated Democrats. Harry Reid saying he will force a vote if he has to. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty joins us now from the White House with the latest. Good morning.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Poppy. Well, this hold up will continue until next week, but there are small signs of progress. Sources from Democrats and Republican sides both tell us there are areas of compromise that they are working on with this other unrelated bill that's standing in Loretta Lynch's way. That's a bill on anti human-trafficking. Now, Majority Leader in the Senate Mitch McConnell says that he intends to move to that trafficking bill first next week, then potentially that would pave the way for Loretta Lynch to finally get her vote. The White House, meanwhile, they have been really combative, increasing the rhetoric recently, calling this delay shameful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So she has waited now more than twice as long as the previous seven attorneys general nominees combined to get a vote on the floor of the United States Senate. That is an unconscionable delay and there is no excuse or explanation for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And by CNN's count Lynch does have enough Republican support to potentially gain confirmation if it's held to a vote next week, but there are a lot of ifs there next week.

CUOMO: There are a lot of ifs. Let's try and put some more definitive answers to some of these things. Thank you for that, Sunlen. So let's talk about what is stalled in Congress and what Congress is choosing to do with its time with Texas Republican Representative Kevin Brady. He's the vice chair of the Congressional Joint Economic Committee and authored two tax bills that passed the House. One would repeal entirely the estate tax, which he is calling the death tax, and would reinstate state and local deductions. President Obama threatening to veto both measures.

Representative, thank you very much for joining us on NEW DAY. Let's first start what you are not doing down there. Do you believe the Senate should have the vote on Loretta Lynch? I know you're in the House and this is the Senate, but do you think it's the right thing to do?

REP. KEVIN BRADY, (R) TEXAS: At the end of the day they will have a vote on her. I certainly think they ought to have the right to actually examine her positions, her views. The attorney general's office which used to be an independent office that actually used to enforced the law no longer is that, so I think there's reasonable questions on both sides of the aisle about how the new attorney general will handle it. So I think at the right time they will get it done.

CUOMO: Even Rudy Giuliani says she is an excellent --

BRADY: This is the top law enforcement officer in the country taking over, we think, a very troubled agency that a lot of Americans don't believe really it stands up for them. So yes, I think it's right to have some deliberations.

CUOMO: So have the deliberations, have the hearings, have it out, have the vote. That would be the point. Same thing on the AUMF. Now, that does involve you. Now, you look around the world, I don't have to tell you. You know better than I do, we have big problems in a lot of different areas and the strategy is under scrutiny and probably with good reason. And yet you guys aren't taking up the issue even though you say it's so important. Why not?

BRADY: Actually, I think you are wrong there.

CUOMO: How so?

BRADY: Taking it up means actually examining what the president has proposed for authorization of force. There's so much more there than just a line or two of his request. In fact both parties in both chambers are starting to hold hearing on exactly what we ought to be doing because at the end of the day most of us believe that we ought to be not just confronting terrorism and defeating it, but we ought to do it in a way where our military doesn't have one hand tied behind their back. The president has not necessarily taken that role.

So there are a lot of issues to tackle the economy and the people struggling to find jobs, especially college graduates, small businesses, family owned farms. Look, this is a big issue, which is why we are looking for ways to make it a little easier for families to stretch their budget and for family-owned businesses and farms to actually be able to pass that down to the next generation. That's why the vote yesterday was so important.

CUOMO: Listen, I get the segue there, and I am going to talk to you about that, but I'm just saying, yes, they are starting to hold hearings, but they are not doing enough on something that matters so much. That's my point, congressman.

BRADY: Chris, I appreciate that, but I will tell you what, these are important issues. Congress shouldn't just rubber stamp what the president sends them. They ought to examine it and do it the right way. And what you're seeing in Congress, major votes to actually fix big problems like Medicare. In fact, fewer and fewer doctors can see our seniors, a growing population. Both parties came together to send to the president this week a solution that has evaded us for 15 years. There is an awful lot, frankly, going on in Congress, maybe on issues you would like to see done today, but I just disagree with that premise.

[08:05:28] CUOMO: All right, and that is your right, sir, and that's why we have you on NEW DAY. And I hope you are right. I hope we do see more on these issues that matter. Let's talk about the headline bill you have. You are calling it the death tax. Make the case for it. Why is this good for American families to have no estate tax at all?

BRADY: Yes, this is the number one reason the death tax, why a family-owned farms and businesses aren't passed down to the next generation. Just imagine working your whole life to build your business up or to take over the family farm, intending to give it to your children or grandchildren so they have better options, and on your death Uncle Sam swoops in and takes nearly half of what you worked a lifetime building up.

We believe this is wrong. It actually hurts the economy and it doesn't help income inequality. At the end of the day, this is wrong. This is really an attack on the American dream. And we believe you can actually generate more revenue by doing away with the tax than keeping it. So it has been 10 years since the House or Senate has taken a stand on the estate or death tax. It was a good, I think, bipartisan vote yesterday in the House, and we'll see where it goes.

CUOMO: You can argue the same conclusion but with completely opposite reasoning, which is yes, it is an attack on the American dream because you are taking care of the richest people in ways that has never been done before. You say farms, and I get why you do. But the numbers are not helpful to your cause. Only 120 small businesses and farms, 100 of them, by the way, were large farms, were hit by the estate tax in 2013. The tiny number effected, there were all sorts of provisions for them to soften the blow, valuation rules, delayed tax payments, and other breaks and discounts. That was from a recent op-ed about this. It's not about farms, is it? It's about fat cats.

BRADY: Actually it is. You just cited one of the most misleading statements and statistics --

CUOMO: Was the number right or wrong?

BRADY: They talk about how many people -- it's wrong in its perspective because it doesn't identify all the family-owned businesses, one out of three, which spend money and time trying to protect their estate to be able to pass it down to the next generation. It doesn't talk about the family-owned farms and businesses that are spending time and money trying to make sure they can deal with the death tax. The superrich they don't pay the estate tax.

CUOMO: So why don't you make it so they do have to pay.

BRADY: They have loopholes, legions of lawyers.

CUOMO: So close those loopholes, make them pay it.

BRADY: Actually, so government will choose if you are too successful or not. At the end of the day, here is a basic question. Spend my time, work, and sacrifice and risk, is that money yours or that the government's? Is it yours to pass down to your children or is it the government's? The death tax does not affect the Kennedys, the Trumps, the Gates. They have foundations.

CUOMO: You can fix that. You give them $10 million in exemptions for a couple. That's $10 million. Who has that? It's less than one- tenth of the population.

BRADY: When I leave this interview, I am going to see a small business person who is doing air conditioning and heating his whole life. He has been spending money for 20 years trying to make sure he can actually pass that small business down to his children. These are not the superrich. And a lot more than just a few are affected by what I think is a terrible tax.

CUOMO: If you've got more than $10 million, that's doing pretty well.

Hold on one second, congressman. I don't understand why you are pushing it with your district being what it is --

BRADY: Tell that --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I want to know who you are doing this for, because your district, you have lower median income than the national average. You only have 4.5 percent make it over $200,000. Who are you doing this for?

BRADY: Who I'm doing this for is Ms. Snook, who later today is going to tell us in the public why she has been forced back to the bank for the third time to take out a loan to pay the death tax just to keep the family farm that has been in their family for 80 to 100 years. Their grandfather paid it, father paid it, surviving spouse, she's paying. That's exactly why I'm doing this for.

CUOMO: The exemption is $10 million for a couple. It winds up affecting less than 5,500 families.

BRADY: You have no perspective on a business that has a print shop, that has land, perhaps a building, will get over that exemption. The family farm with 700 acres, not a big one at all, they are over that exemption. Again, you may hide behind the Donald Trumps of the world, but in fact this is hitting everyday Americans. That's why in poll after poll, nearly 70 percent of Americans think this is the wrong tax at the wrong time and it hurts the wrong people.

[08:10:19] CUOMO: Nobody likes taxes, but I wonder how high on the list of the average family the estate tax is on their worries about their household? But we'll see. It will bear out when people start debating it.

BRADY: It is. And it's a good debate. It has been 10 years and this is a great debate to have. Whose money is this?

CUOMO: Congressman, thank you very much for coming on NEW DAY. I love having this kind of robust debate and look forward to having you back.

BRADY: Great. Thanks, Chris. Appreciate it.

CUOMO: Absolutely, sir. Poppy?

HARLOW: What a conversation, Chris. Thank you for that.

Authorities now saying that this man tried to train and did train with Islamic extremists in Syria and then came back here to the United States and plotted to kill Americans. He is 22 years old. He's from Ohio and he is now facing terrorism charges. According to his indictment Abdirahman Sheik Mohamud got his marching orders from a Muslim cleric last year, came back here to the United States with the goal of executing American soldiers. Our Atika Shubert is tracking the latest developments for us this morning. It's very troubling.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is very troubling, Poppy. And what is especially chilling is that according to this indictment Abdirahman Mohamud was already planning to go to Syria to join terror groups even as he was applying for his citizenship, and he left just two months after getting his passport. Take a look at what he was planning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHUBERT: Back from Syria radicalized, and, according to authorities, with intent to kill. This man, a 23-year-old American, is in custody this morning. The FBI says he was hoping to do something big in the U.S.

Abdirahman Sheik Mohamud left his hometown of Columbus, Ohio, in April of last year according to an indictment, on a one way ticket to Athens, Greece. But Mohamud never boarded his connection flight after stopping in Istanbul, Turkey. Instead, authorities say, an accomplice picked him up and drove him to the border town where he crossed over into Syria.

Mohamud allegedly trained with terrorists in shooting weapons, breaking into houses, using explosives, and hand to hand combat. Officials did not say which group he trained with. Two months into the military-type camp, a cleric told Mohamud to, quote, "return to the United States and carry out an act of terrorism," according to the indictment.

In June, now back in Ohio, the 23-year-old allegedly told others that he wanted to kill American soldiers execution-style at a military base in Texas, and his backup plan was to attack a prison, specifically wanting to target armed forces, including police officers. It's not clear just how far along any such plans were. Muhammad expressing support for ISIS on social media a full year prior to leaving for Syria officials say, uploading images of the terrorist group to his Facebook page.

SEN. RON JOHNSON, (R) WISCONSIN: As long as ISIS remains, as long as they are not defeated, they are going to continue to inspire individuals like that to go and join the jihad, get trained, come back and pose a threat to the west and to America.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SHUBERT: Now he faces three counts in all, two of aiding terrorists individuals and a terrorist group, another charge of giving false information to the FBI. Now, the arraignment will be in just a few hours, and according to his defense lawyer he will plead not guilty to all three charges, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Interesting to hear what he has to say. Thanks, Atika.

The fighting only getting more intense in Yemen this morning. Officials say the southern city of Aden is being overrun by Houthi rebels and Saudi airstrikes right now are of little help. Locals are left in dire need of dwindling food and medical supplies. CNN is the only network taking you to that besieged city. Our Nima Elbagir joins us live now with more on what she found. Nima?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, we are on our way back from Aden. It is absolutely a city under siege, and they need everything you can imagine -- fuel, food, clean water. We'll show you these pictures. This is the hospital we visited. The chief of surgery told me they have stopped counting the numbers of the dead and the dying that have come through their doors. There was a little boy we met there, a five-year-old, and he absolutely would break your heart. He was hit with shrapnel when he was playing at his friend's house. They had actually just gone back to pick up a football. There are so many stories like this in Aden because it is street by street fighting, and it is the civilians that are being caught in the middle.

The only crowds that we found in Aden were in front of the bakeries where people queuing 24 hours a day because there is so little food left. Nobody wants to take the risk that they're going to be the ones going home to their families empty-handed And all the while, as you said, there is this constant threat of a continuing advance by the Houthi forces -- Chris.

[08:15:09] CUOMO: And the fact that you reported that the hospital there had stopped counting the number of dead because they are so overwhelmed really just tells you how dire the situation is. We are glad you are safe and we'll check back with you as you get more understanding of what's going on on the ground. Thank you, Nima.

The Tulsa deputy who gunned down a man during an undercover sting is speaking out this morning. His name is Robert Bates and he says he was well-trained for the job and can prove it, and at the same time, he is apologizing for making such a horrible mistake of confusing a taser for a gun and then killing the man.

Let's get right to CNN's Ed Lavandera. He's live in Tulsa.

How's the latest, Ed?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris.

Well, this is the first time we heard from Robert Bates, and it's been well-documented over the last week and a half that Mr. Bates says that he confused his handgun or his -- the taser for his handgun, and that's what led to this tragedy, but he says it was not intentional, speaking to the "Today" show this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BATES, RESERVE DEPUTY CHARGED IN DEATHLY SHOOTING: I was actually parked down the street at the Sinclair station, several blocks away from where the activity took place. In other words, the drug guy, the dope, and the gun purchased. He decided to bolt from the undercovers truck and run and he came to me. I yelled "taser, taser", as required in training. The deputy below me ducked, and he pulled away from it so that I could -- I rate this as number one on the list of things in my life that I regret.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: And he was also asked about the controversy swirling around his training and "The Tulsa World" newspaper in the city of Tulsa reporting that the documents the training records were falsified and several employees of the sheriff's department were demoted because they refused to sign off on all of that, and Mr. Bates says he was properly trained -- Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and he also says he has all of the documents to prove that, but none of us, the public has not seen those yet. Ed Lavandera for us on the story, thank you.

Also this, ISIS and Iraqi forces engaging in fierce battles for the control of the city of Ramadi. Security forces who have spent days defending that city may have to pull back if more reinforcements do not arrive soon. Also, this new disturbing images this morning, and what you are seeing is families fleeing the city of Ramadi hoping to find some sort of safe haven in nearby Baghdad.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A huge drug haul in the Pacific -- 28,000 pounds of cocaine was seized in nearly two dozen operations near Central and South America. Officials estimate the value at $424 million. Look at that.

The Navy, Coast Guard, and Royal Canadian navy ships has seized more cocaine in the last few months than in all of 2014.

HARLOW: ESPN reporter Britt McHenry suspended after a video of her expletive-filled rant against a parking lot attendant exploded online. It followed the reporter's car being towed.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRITT MCHENRY, ESPN REPORTER: Do you feel good about your job, so I could be a college drop out and do the same thing? Why, because I have a brain and you don't? Maybe if I was missing some teeth they would hire me here.

Oh like yours cause they look so stunning, cause I'm on television, and you're in a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) trailer honey. Lose some weight, baby girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: McHenry apologized, saying in a statement, quote, "I allowed my emotions to get the best of me.

BERMAN: It's really tough to hear that. It's tough to hear that.

CUOMO: I think she's got trouble. I think she's got trouble coming her way because of the things she said and how she said it, and the situation. It stinks to get your car towed, I don't know if you've ever dealt with it. But --

BERMAN: Getting your car towed is not losing a family member.

CUOMO: That's exactly right. And it's also not a reason to not respect people who have to do their job. Wow, that was a rough one.

All right. Jurors in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial, they are opening up to our Anderson Cooper exclusively about not just reaching the verdict, and why, and you will be surprised by the things they say they did not believe about the defense and the prosecution. We will play it for you and make sense of it with analysis ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We learned yesterday that he said to his guards that he didn't do it, that you all were wrong. When you hear that, what do you think?

MALE JUROR: My first thought was if we were wrong, if he had something else to say, maybe he should have testified at some point in that trial. Maybe there should have been a little more so we could have actually heard his side of the story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: The perspective of one of the jurors in the Aaron Hernandez trial, the panel sat down exclusively with our Anderson Cooper.

Here to discuss all of it, Joey Jackson, HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. Also joining me, Mo Ivory, radio personality and an attorney herself.

Guys, thank you both for being here with me.

Mo, let me begin with you. You just heard it from one of the jurors there, he said -- look, if he was innocent why didn't he take the stand?

This is what defense attorneys grabble with every time, do I put my client on the stand?

In retrospect listening to what the juror had to say, did the defense make a mistake?

MO IVORY, RADIO PERSONALITY AND ATTORNEY: Yes, I guess so because obviously the jury felt if he would have heard from him, if they would and get an opportunity to understand what he thought took place, and from listening with the jury I tend to agree it might have come out differently if he would have testified because they were in tune to listening exactly what every witness was saying, and tying the pieces together, and they were not lazy but were smart and working to put the puzzle together, and he might have been that last piece if he would have testified.

HARLOW: Joey, when we look at this, one of the other jurors said that one of the issues they had, the defense changed in the midst of the trial, and in the opening statement, they said Hernandez was not there.

[08:25:06] In the middle of the trial, they said he was there but he did not pull the trigger. And they didn't need him to pull the trigger to declare that he was guilty in this case? How much do you think this hurt him?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it's big, Poppy, for the following reason. You have to have a theory and you have to stick to it. And in addition to saying what you mentioned, they also said, wait, the defense said what he had in his hand could have been a remote control, then it could have been an iPad, then it could have been a gun but not the same caliber gun, so that's confusing.

What you do is that at the outset of the case, you know, win, lose or draw, you have your theory and you're going to impress upon the jury that your theory should carry the day. And when you start to alter it, it makes it appear, well, if you're not sure of yourself how can we be sure of what you are saying.

HARLOW: Look, when you look at what they need for murder one, it was not just premeditation. There was another aspect of it. So, take a listen to this from one of the jurors. Let's discuss it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FEMALE JUROR: It was his indifference, and that was part of what I had to look at, and it was -- even if there was no premeditation, he could have made choices when he was there. He was there, they admitted that, and he could have made different choices and he chose not to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: A word that came up a lot, Mo, in that interview with Anderson was indifference, and this goes to the extreme cruelty aspect of getting to murder one and finding Aaron Hernandez guilty. It brings up the question of whether how somebody acted after a crime was committed matters. Clearly, here they say it does in a big way.

IVORY: Sure, in Massachusetts, it matters, because that extreme cruelty and atrocity standard, you can do away with the premeditation and still find that, and really what does that mean? Like, how do you get to extreme cruelty and atrocity?

It's all looking at the actions of the person. It's looking at what did they do prior? What did they do after?

And just think when they -- you know, this woman, this juror, especially that was just speaking, it was the one that I felt was -- you know, she might have gone another way. I think when she walked in, she didn't want to find Aaron Hernandez guilty. But as she started putting the things together and as she even said during the interview with Anderson, that she really needed help from the other jurors to really understand what it was that she needed to find here, and I do think all those other things -- even one juror said he was walking around in the house with a gun and he had a child.

HARLOW: Yes.

IVORY: Now, if you take that separately away from it being the night of the murder that he walked around in the house, it really isn't that odd for a person, a homeowner, a parent who owns a gun to transport that gun from one dresser to the next, and it wouldn't really have meant anything. But it meant something because it was the night of the murder. And these incidents alone, even though they say -- they were very clear to -- this was a smart jury, and they were clear to say that they weren't thinking about things that didn't matter and they were only listening to the juror's instructions, some things really did matter.

HARLOW: And I wonder, Joey, if you think where this trial a took place, plays into the uniqueness of it in terms of where it was held, right? Because I wonder if he had been tried in a different jurisdiction, would he have been convicted under these circumstances, because the premeditation, they didn't have it there, but they did have that extreme cruelty aspect?

JACKSON: You know, I'm willing and inclined to say yes. And you never really know, Poppy, and I don't know juries. I speak to enough jurors after the fact and what the things they say surprised me. But this particular jury, it appears, though, some of them knew him, some of them were fans, and others of them were not so much fans. And it appeared to be that they evaluated all of this, almost seven days, 35 hours of deliberating, and it appeared they put all the pieces together, whether it's the issues of his behavior that you asked Mo about, the consciousness of guilty.

Reasonable people do reasonable things under reasonable circumstances, and when you look at how he behaved and you look at all the evidence that the prosecution brought to bear, where it's the prints, whether it's the DNA, whether it's the Nike shoes, whether it's the gun beforehand, the gun after the fact, I think the jury really grabbled with it, not an easy decision to make, and I think ultimately they made the right one.

HARLOW: And they took their time and they went through. And, you know, it's interesting, they told Anderson, look, we don't want to get into the emotions of our personal exchange in the juror room, that is sacrosanct, that is private, but here is how we came to our decision.

JACKSON: So odd. So odd.

HARLOW: Mo, Joey, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

JACKSON: Always.

IVORY: Absolutely.

HARLOW: John?

BERMAN: The tabloid headlines with major legal implications. The ex- fiance of actress Sophia Vergara trying to keep her from destroying embryos they frozen while they were together? Who gets the final say on these embryos and what does this mean for similar cases around the country?

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