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Columbia Report on Botched "Rolling Stone" Story; Obama: There is no Formula to Follow on Iran; Boston Bombing Trial: Tsarnaev Closing Arguments Start Monday; Defense Tries to Save Tsarnaev from Death Penalty; Pope Francis's Easter Sunday Message Calls for Nonviolence; Are Budget Airlines Less Safe?; Pope Told to Lay Off the Pasta? Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 5, 2015 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[18:00:00] KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Part of his message, he's not what he looks like. Once married to a black woman, father to a biracial child.

(on camera): So, you're out here courting the black vote?

BOB HODGINS, FERGUSON CITY COUNCIL CANDIDATE: Yes, I am, as hard as I can. That's most of the voters.

LAH (voice-over): Has change arrived for the average person in Ferguson? The last city election saw less than 13 percent turnout.

(on camera): Did you vote in the last city election?

DOMINIC TOBINS, VOTER: The last city election, no, I didn't vote in the last city election, but this time I will.

LAH: Perhaps a sign of things to come in Ferguson's future.

Kyung Lah, CNN, Ferguson, Missouri.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Six o'clock Eastern this Sunday evening. Thanks so much for being with me. I'm Poppy Harlow, in New York.

And we begin this hour with our top story. Two hours from now, the writer behind a controversial "Rolling Stone" article on rape at the University of Virginia is expected to apologize. Sabrina Rubin Erdely wrote about an alleged gang rape at a campus security party last year.

The bombshell report led to condemnation of how the university responds to assault in campus. Their fraternity was shut down. It's since been reopened.

Soon, there were serious questions about that reporting. Police investigated, they were not able to find proof of that gang rape happening on that evening. They do say, though, that that victim Jackie likely may have been traumatized in another way.

I spoke to the reporter of that article in November before the story began to fall apart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SABRINA RUBIN ERDELY, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, ROLLING STONE: It's a situation where seemingly fraternities are calling the shots, where sexual assault is rampant, where rape victims are afraid and discouraged from coming forward by both their peers and subtly discouraged from administrators from filing reports.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, tonight, "Rolling Stone" is expected to release the results an independent outside review of the article by the Columbia Journalism Review.

CNN's Brian Stelter, senior media correspondent, joins me now with some breaking news.

I know you've been working sources to try to find out sort of what this report has uncovered. What do we know at this point?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, the public has not seen it and will not see it for a couple of more hours, but "Rolling Stone" has seen it. This is notable, Poppy, because this is one of the biggest journalistic sins we've seen in a long time. Journalists try so hard to get it right and to get their stories straight and get their sources to tell the truth.

But in this case, there were so many mistakes made along the way of this whole story, this 9,000-word story and that's why there is a 12,000-word investigation coming out tonight about it. But I'm told that "Rolling Stone" has made the decision they're not going to discipline anybody about this and they're not going to fire anybody, they're not going to suspend anybody and they decided this report is punishment enough.

And I have to say, this is pretty unprecedented -- to see a 12,000- word investigation into the wrongdoings of a news organization like this, it's rarely if ever happened. So, it is going to be pretty embarrassing for the magazine. But for the magazine, it's the first chance for them to regain their reputation, regain some credibility.

And so, the decision has been made. Nobody is going to be losing their jobs over this. But we do have to say, the writer, Sabrina, she probably won't be writing for the magazine again. She's a freelancer, yes.

HARLOW: The fact checker, though, will not be punished, for example. The fact checker dropped the ball. The editor, the head of the magazine, dropped the ball in terms of saying it was OK for this reporter not to at all talk to the alleged perpetrators.

STELTER: That's right.

We're talking about the one word that was used with me, one phrase that was used with me, was systemic failure and it was a failure from top to bottom. And like I said the public has not seen this report yet, but apparently, it's going to go into detail about what those failures were and why they happened.

HARLOW: You know, when you talk about the media messing up, it happens, but when you talk about the fact that this has the very dire consequence of harming all of those women that are raped and do undergo sexual assault on college campuses, one in five women that they might be taken less seriously the next time around and that's not something that can be reversed.

STELTER: No, that's not something that can be repaired by any investigation or any report or any review or any apology. We're going to hear from the writer tonight. Apparently, she's going to issue a statement of apology and maybe explain herself. But you're right, that's not going to reverse the damage here. And there are students at UVA who are worried about the chilling effect that this happened.

On the other hand, some students there, we talked to them over the weekend, yesterday, they say at least there are reforms now being put in place. Now, they're obviously belated and they could have come out sooner, but there are now reforms being put in place. Maybe there are some weird positives that come out of this really awful story.

And, by the way, we've never heard from Jackie -- the alleged victim in all of this who told this horrible story. We've never heard from her and I'm not sure if we're going to, she may remain silent.

HARLOW: Look, she shouldn't feel pressured to talk about this. She should go on with her life as best she can. The police do say they did not find evidence of this specific gang rape, but do not doubt that she was traumatized, that something traumatic could have happened to her.

STELTER: And to your point about one in five women --

HARLOW: Yes?

STELTER: -- we learned on Friday another sexual assault reported at UVA.

[18:05:01] It happened at the end of March, and it didn't happen between a woman and seven men the way that Jackie alleged. It happened between a girlfriend and a boyfriend that used to be together. They broke up. The woman wanted to stay away from the guy. And now, she said the guy assaulted her.

It was one of the more common cases.

HARLOW: Absolutely.

Let's bring in our legal panel to talk about this: criminal defense attorney Danny Cevallos is with me, HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson, Brian Stelter stays with us.

Guys, "Rolling Stone" -- to you, Danny, first -- is not going to punish anyone, fire anyone. Is there any legal recourse that could take place here by any of the parties -- UVA, for example?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: First, let's talk about UVA -- and we can remove them -- because UVA is the government, right? It's a public university. The government generally cannot sue for defamation.

The fraternity is another story. To prove defamation, you have to establish that the statement is about a person.

Joey Jackson is a big thief and that's clearly about Joey Jackson. If, on the other hand, I say all lawyers are thieves, Joey Jackson cannot sue me because groups can generally not sue.

But there is a theory is it is alive in Virginia, the small group theory, and the idea behind that is if a group is small enough that defaming the group clearly is imputed to the person, then under that small group theory, a defamation case can be had.

And is there anything more apt than a fraternity with anything from, who knows, 20 to 50 members, when you say the gamma house -- and I'm making up a fraternity -- is a bunch of jerks, it's pretty obvious who we're talking about.

HARLOW: And, Joey, that fraternity at UVA was immediately shut down by the university's president and has since then been reinstated, but it sounds like they have grounds here.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It sounds like they have more than grounds, Poppy, and tragic to be sure. The reality is it goes back to Brian, you know, your issue, "Rolling Stone" and the whole issue of a report being done, and the lack of corroboration.

We do, as lawyers, we try to do is we corroborate. You go before juries and you don't rely upon one person's word to tell a narrative, to tell a story, and certainly, if you do, you want other people to be inside that courtroom by way of analogy, Poppy, of course, I'm speaking to buttress the claims and support the claims.

But when you present a story and it's so widespread as this, and it hits home to all of us like this does, the issue of abuse on women on college campus, and there's nobody to corroborate it, and why didn't we do so? Because she asked us to not do so and we honored that request. That's problematic, very problematic.

HARLOW: Do you worry, Brian, that the fallout from this is going to mean that less, big, important news publications try to report on stories like this and tackle them?

STELTER: That's a very real concern. I've heard that from journalism investors.

On the flipside, this has brought more attention to the issue. So, it may actually bring more coverage, more dialogue and discussion, if this fraternity decides to sue, or if there's other actions, that will keep it in the news. We checked with the frat today, they say they might issue a statement tomorrow. They want to read this report, and then reach the decision.

But the fact that that possibility is on the table and that they may sue may keep this in the news for a while.

HARLOW: And, Danny, what about the author, Sabrina Rubin Erdely? What about any recourse against her, would anyone take that? Can they?

CEVALLOS: In theory, yes. But individuals usually make unappetizing defendants, why? Because they don't -- they have or don't have what we call in the business deep pockets. So in theory, that person may be liable, but they may not be as appetizing a defendant as "Rolling Stone" and the company behind it.

HARLOW: But "Rolling Stone", Joey, could if they wanted to legally go after her or, you know, for reputational damage to the magazine, but they dropped the ball, too.

JACKSON: And that's the problem here, Poppy. You have a system or should have a system in place which should be able to vet claims like this. And when you have fact checkers and editors that allow this to move forward it becomes a problem and there's at least negligence on their part, and I can certainly understand you want to protect the integrity of, you know, any -- even if it's an investigation or individual.

If a person is making a rape claim, you want to respect them, you don't want to go public because of the fear it would cause so much damage to them. But that doesn't mean you don't speak to people to see whether or not they're telling the truth or the information is accurate. And therein lies the greater problem and just in concluding this, that fraternity really took it on the chin in light of this. The school took it on the chin for reasons that Danny explains and it's that unlimited.

I think the other thing to look at, though, by now, it's so public that these are not true, right? These allegations are not true, then in some respect it clears their name, and it does them a lot of good.

STELTER: The solution to poor journalism is more journalism, right?

HARLOW: Better.

JACKSON: Better journalism.

HARLOW: Gentlemen, thank you very much, Danny, Joey and Brian.

Stay with us. Go to CNN.com and CNNMoney.com. After 8:00 p.m., Brian Stelter will have the latest on that report and what it says.

[18:10:00] Coming up next, President Obama doing everything he can to defend this deal, this nuclear deal with Iran. He's speaking out in a brand new interview with "The New York Times," what he said and what he wants to see Congress do. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARLOW: President Obama says when it comes to preventing a nuclear Iran, there is no formula to follow and there is nothing stronger right now than talking and diplomacy.

That is not the notion shared by Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who tells CNN he prefers the world powers to stand firm, to keep pressure on Iran, and to get a better deal than this one.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is at the White House this evening.

And, Sunlen, the president coming out, giving a big interview to "The New York Times" about this, he's not budging. What's he saying?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And this, Poppy, is part of the White House's aggressive sales pitch to get many people and many world leaders and Congress to sign on to this deal, and this is a big picture, 45-minute academic interview that Obama gave to "The New York Times", this was done on Saturday in the Oval Office.

And we saw President Obama in the course of this interview not only defends specifics of the deal with Iran, but also his original decisions to engage with Iran in the first place, something that started when he was then Senator Obama running for office in 2008 and he talked about how the mistrust, he believes, won't fade immediately between the two countries. He says that's not going to go away quickly, but that he observed a practical streak. That was a quote from him, a practical streak during the course of these negotiations with Iran.

And he was asked specifically about the ayatollah, the supreme leader and what he observed about him over the course of these negotiations. He said he's a tough read, but added this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He did give his negotiators in this deal the leeway, the capability to make important concessions that would allow this framework agreement to come to fruition.

[18:15:11] He does realize that the sanctions and the regime that we put together was weakening Iran over the long term and that -- you know, if, in fact, he wanted to see Iran re-enter the community of nations, then there are going to have to be changes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And there are a lot of people skeptical about this deal, most notably the U.S. Congress, who will be back from recess next week, Poppy. The president said that he understands that and there are a lot of details to be worked out -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Sunlen at the White House for us this evening -- thank you very much. I want our viewers to listen to a little bit more of what the

president said and bring in our Brian Stelter in, too, just to talk about the media strategy. So, let's listen to more of the president's interview with "New York Times'" Friedman and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: What I would say to the Israeli people is, however, there is no formula, there is no option to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon that will be more effective than the diplomatic initiative and framework that we put forward and that's demonstrable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN senior media correspondent Brian Stelter back here with me.

Look, huge wide-ranging interview with "The New York Times," with the big name at "The Times", Tom Friedman, what's the strategy here, the game plan for the president from his media team, between the framework of a deal and then finalizing what they hope will be the deal?

STELTER: Yes, this really caught my eye when it came online a few minutes ago, because we -- a couple of thing, number one, we rarely see the president speaks to "The New York Times." It's an outlet that's been wanting more interviews with him, haven't gotten them over the years. Number two, he's going to Tom Friedman, one of the leading foreign affairs columnist and thinkers in the world to deliver his message about Iran, this first interview since this deal was announced a number of days ago.

And we see it's an in-depth interview. You know, lately, the president and the White House had been avoiding sort of a sound bite interview, where they speak and they only get a few minutes on TV. This was a 45-minute interview and they put it all online. You can watch the whole thing on "The New York Times" Web site.

He did this recently with "Vox", with "Vice", with "BuzzFeed", they've been going to any number of, especially online outlets, where the president can speak at length uninterrupted essentially and really deliver his point of view about the world without, you know, being condensed into a 30-second sound bite. Now, of course, sound bites are the main way most people hear what the president's thinking.

HARLOW: Right.

STELTER: But you can see this White House is not -- they've never pleased by that. They're going out and looking for ways that the president can speak at length about these issues.

HARLOW: Is it effective?

STELTER: I'm not sure how many people actually sit down and watch these long interviews. However, we've seen a 5,000-word column written by Friedman all about it. So there are a wide variety of ways in order to consume it.

What Friedman asserts in this column is that he sees an Obama doctrine emerging. We've heard about this in the past. But Friedman's point of view on this is, you see why the president is trying to engage with countries like Iran and Cuba and by giving this interview it's getting someone like Friedman to go ahead and give him an airing.

HARLOW: Brian Stelter, good to be with you. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

STELTER: Thanks.

HARLOW: Coming up next, a somber Easter Sunday in Kenya, a day that celebrates resurrection, but after the nation was shaken to its core by al Shabaab terror attacks. A very emotional day for worshipper. We'll bring you that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:22:03] HARLOW: Christians in Garissa, Kenya, returned to church for Easter Sunday services today, just days after jihadist gunmen attacked a local college and killed 147 people there, mostly defenseless Christian students.

David McKenzie is on the story. He joins me this evening from Nairobi.

I can't imagine what a day it was especially this being Easter for all of the people and their families. What was the message from the churches today to the congregants?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Poppy. Such a tragic day and Kenya is in national mourning, and the congregations throughout the country were dealing with this loss any way they can. People filing into churches on Easter Sunday. The message was really one of peace, of course, and also a message that Kenya is one and will try to stop the message of violence and hate that appears to have spread to some Kenyans in the wake before this attack even happened.

Of course, for the students themselves, they had been sent back to Nairobi. The surviving students and emotional reunions with their parents and also tragic scenes at the morgue here in Nairobi with family members coming to see if they could identify their loved ones and anguished scenes as they made that awful time to actually find out that their loved one has died.

So, all in all, an extremely tragic and emotional day here in Kenya -- Poppy.

HARLOW: I know, David that the authorities there have identified the suspected mastermind of the attack. They've placed about a $215,000 bounty on his head. What do we know about him?

MCKENZIE: Well, they did name him early on and now, they're giving more details. It appears that Mohamed Mohamud was in charge of cross- border operations from Somalia into Kenya. He has deep links inside Kenya. In fact, taught, it appears at a madrassa, a religious school in Kenya before at some point going to Somalia and joining the fight with al Shabaab, the terror group there.

It's very disturbing to Kenyan authorities because it seems that these gunmen had close links to Kenya. In fact, many of them appeared to have spent a great deal of time in Kenya.

We are also learning that one of the alleged gunmen was the son of a Kenyan official, that he studied in Nairobi university, studied at law school and worked before disappearing eventually into Somalia, and then being a part of this attack.

So, following the leads and investigating the attack and there's also growing anger on social media and just on the street in Kenya that the Kenyan officials took so long to get to the scene to finish this standoff, to end the siege and they say that perhaps many lives could have been saved.

So, right now, the grief is mixed with rising anger -- Poppy.

[18:25:04] HARLOW: Completely understandable.

David McKenzie, live for us in Nairobi this evening -- thank you, David.

Coming up next, we're going to switch gears and talk about what is a very key day in the trial of the admitted Boston marathon bomber. Tomorrow is a very key day after these closing arguments. Could we see a quick verdict and then what's really critical? The sentencing phase. Will he get the death penalty? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Closing arguments begin Monday in the first phase of the Boston marathon bombing trial. A guilty verdict is all but certain. Lawyers for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev made it clear it is not an acquittal. It is sparing him from the death penalty.

Our Alexandra Field has been in court all week, and takes a look at the evidence presented so far.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The case against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. The story you've heard and evidence you've never seen before, Tsarnaev running from the blast site. Minutes later, shopping for milk at a Whole Foods grocery store in Cambridge and the blood- stained message meant to explain it all.

Marathon Monday, a surveillance camera near a bar catches Tamerlan and Dzhokhar walking down Boylston Street. They're carrying backups with the pressure bombs inside. They split up. Tamerlan heads toward the finish line, Dzhokhar takes his place in front of the Forum Restaurant. There is a phone call between the brothers and then the first explosion. Inside Marathon Sports, shattered glass and shell-shocked victims. Outside, video never seen before of the horror, the helplessness, and the heroes.

The further down Boylston Street, in front of the Forum Restaurant, there is confusion, heads turned toward the finish line.

[18:30:05] Dzhokhar gives a backward glance and leaves his backpack behind.

Six-year-old Jane Richard loses her leg in the blast. Her 8-year-old brother Martin is hurt even worse. Their father Bill remembers, "It was the last time I saw my son alive, barely."

Lucy Lu and Crystal Campbell can't be saved. Three days later all hell breaks loose. Six shots ring out on the MIT campus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer down. Officer down. All units.

FIELD: Officer Sean Collier is killed. Surveillance cameras catch two men walking towards his squad car and then taking off less than three minutes later. A student riding by on a bicycle will place Dzhokhar at the scene of the crime.

Tamerlan confesses to the murder and the bombings after carjacking a Chinese grad student Don Meng. He testifies Tamerlan says, you know who did it, I did it. Held at gunpoint and forced to hand over his ATM, Dzhokhar withdraws money from his account. Meng makes his getaway when the brother stopped for gas. Dzhokhar is inside stocking up on snacks. Meng narrowly escapes Tamerlan's grip running for his life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are the suspects of the marathon explosion.

FIELD: The manhunt intensifies. Police uses a safety feature with the GPS inside the Mercedes to track the brothers down. Watertown, there was a firefight. The brothers hurling pipe bombs and pressure cooker bombs. At least 56 shots are fired from the .9 millimeter handgun used to kill Officer Sean Collier. Police fire at least 210 shots.

Tamerlan dies after his brother drives the Mercedes over his body. A days later Dzhokhar is pulled out of a boat in a backyard riddled with more than 100 police bullets. His message etched in pencil. "We Muslims are one body. You hurt one, you hurt us all."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Alexander Field reporting. Thank you, Alex.

Let's bring in our legal analyst to talk about it. Criminal defense attorney Danny Cevallos, also former prosecutor, Joey Jackson.

Guys, thank you for being here. This is --

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Pleasure, Poppy.

HARLOW: -- not a traditional trial in any sense, but also you had the defense attorney come out in the opening statement, Joey, and say he did it.

JACKSON: It was him.

HARLOW: Right. So guilty verdict all be but certain, how quickly does this come?

JACKSON: You know, I think it comes relatively quickly. Now remember there are 30 counts and so the jury is going to have to listen to the judge's instructions and having listened to those instructions as to what the applicable law is apply that law to the facts here, but whatever you have and you say it's certainly a non-traditional trial inasmuch as generally neither Danny, criminal defense attorney, or myself get up at the outset of the trial and say my client really did do it, but I think it's part of a larger game.

Will the verdict be pretty swift? I think so, but then we move into that next phase, the penalty phase.

HARLOW: Right.

JACKSON: Which I don't think will be swift at all.

HARLOW: Right.

JACKSON: Not so much the verdict or the trial itself.

HARLOW: And so, Danny, exactly, the sentencing phase, you've got witnesses come again. Right? We're talking -- some people were saying it could be four weeks, it could be longer. What do you need to know about the sentencing phase here? Obviously, his defense attorney is just trying to make sure he doesn't get the death penalty.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In capital cases, the sentencing phase is different is from almost all other kinds of cases. The most notable feature is that the judge is not involved in the sentencing. He's not the one who metes out the final sentence. It's the jury. And also the evidence are very relaxed in these federal capital cases. We can look for virtually anything to come in which --

HARLOW: So new evidence can come in.

CEVALLOS: New evidence that we may not have seen at the trial. Like I said, the rules of evidence are very much relaxed so that usually in yours against the defendant, but it could go either way, but we can expect to see possibly even more evidence at the penalty phase. Of course both sides will be mindful, they don't want to be repetitive, but imagine, they will put on a very emotional case. The rules are certainly on the prosecution's side and we can expect en even more heartbreaking case that we have seen so far.

HARLOW: Yes. JACKSON: Just to add to that, Poppy. You have what are called

aggravating factors that the prosecution is going to look to, to sort of tell that jury, you know why he should go to death? Well, let me tell you. These are all the reasons why.

HARLOW: But --

JACKSON: Aggravated is to show the heinousness of the act.

HARLOW: Sure.

JACKSON: And then you have the mitigators for the prosecution -- excuse me, for the defense to say, you know what? He's a troubled guy, his brother made him do it.

HARLOW: Right.

JACKSON: These are the reasons you shouldn't put him to death.

HARLOW: Is he going to take the stand?

JACKSON: You know, I don't see that in as much as, you know, listen, it's always difficult not only in the guilt phase, but certainly in the penalty phase to put anybody on the stand who's going to be ravaged by a prosecutor who was going to ask very, you know, stiff questions. This is cross-examination.

HARLOW: He's not take the stand.

JACKSON: Yes --

CEVALLOS: I'll take a more direct route. Likely he's not taking the stand and here's why. History may prove me wrong, but the whole gist, the whole gamut that the defense has tried this entire case is sympathy. This guy was a patsy. It was his older brother.

HARLOW: Right.

CEVALLOS: He is the one that made him do it. The only thing they may have going for him is sympathy. Why put your client on the stand?

HARLOW: Right.

CEVALLOS: And possibly remove that one element you have going for you.

[18:35:07] HARLOW: Because as much as you train him, you never know what he's going to say.

JACKSON: Exactly, Poppy. He might even say, you know what? Put me to death.

HARLOW: Right. He may want --

JACKSON: Remember he's been talking about the jealousy he has of his brother for actually being dead. HARLOW: Right.

JACKSON: And as a result of that realizing that ultimate dream.

HARLOW: Before we go, I do want to talk about a fascinating, important woman in all of this, Judy Clarke, the defense attorney, someone who has defended Zacarias Moussaoui, who has defended the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. What do we know about her, Danny?

CEVALLOS: She's a very accomplished defense attorney and a defender. And if anybody puts to rest the myth that somehow public defenders are less effective, let me disabuse you of that notion and let Judy Clarke do it, too. She is one of the leading capital punishment defense attorneys with the Federal Public Defender. She's outstanding. I mean, she's very respected and as you can see from her resume, she's handled some of the biggest cases around.

HARLOW: Right.

CEVALLOS: And as we said, her gamut from the beginning has been smart in that she's not fighting the idea of liability, but she is fighting to save his life because that's the endgame here.

JACKSON: Absolutely is. One hundred percent. Could she do it? That's another story.

HARLOW: We'll be watching.

JACKSON: Do you think he lives or does he die?

CEVALLOS: I think he lives.

JACKSON: You think he lives.

CEVALLOS: I think no one save this tape, just in case. I don't want to have to come back and --

HARLOW: This tape will be saved. We'll be following it, gentlemen.

JACKSON: I think he dies.

HARLOW: You do?

JACKSON: I do.

HARLOW: You do.

JACKSON: I do.

HARLOW: Thank you very much, guys.

We'll be following it again. These closing arguments beginning in the first phase of the trial tomorrow morning.

JACKSON: Thank you, Poppy. HARLOW: Coming up next, we're going to switch gears and talk about

this budget airlines. Are they less safe at all than traditional carriers or are they just as safe?

The Germanwings tragedy has revived this old question. We'll take a look at the facts, the evidence next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:23] HARLOW: The investigators have now collected all of the main evidence from the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525 that includes more than 2,000 DNA samples, 40 cell phones and both of those critical black boxes. A private security company is now standing guard at the site until all the remaining debris can be collected and this crash has raised some concerns about budget carriers like Germanwings and whether low cost means less safe.

Here's Rene Marsh.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Until the Germanwings deadly crash, the low-cost carrier had a spotless safety record, but now the incident is drawing scrutiny about how safe budget carriers are.

AMY FRAHER, AUTHOR, "THE NEXT CRASH": Pilots are often asked to fly more while being paid less, which increases stress in their lives.

MARSH: While investigators are focusing on medical issues and not pilot pay or experience, critics believe the cost-cutting airline culture could have deadly consequences.

FRAHER: These kinds of things cumulatively we have added up to create a situation where pilots are basically distracted, they are having labor disputes with management.

MARSH: Commercial airline pilot James Schilling says low cost does not mean low safety.

JAMES SCHILLING, COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOT: Low cost carriers do make their living at trying to keep the tickets as low as they can. But everybody, whether you're a low cost carrier or one of the international major airlines, you have a minimum standard that you have to meet.

MARSH: Statistics show low-cost carriers like Ryanair, EasyJet, JetBlue, Spirit and Southwest Airlines, have good safety records.

FRAHER: They don't look at near-miss accidents. They don't look at the kind of accidents that potentially could occur. The statistical studies have limitations.

MARSH: Some argue it's not who you fly but where you fly. Africa had the worst safety record. For every one million flights, 6.83 had a catastrophic end. Experts blame weak government safety regulations. In the U.S., only .20 ended with a crash.

SCHILLING: There are places throughout the world where safety and security is not as good as it is here in the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Rene Marsh with that report for us.

Joining me to talk about it, CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo.

Mary, thanks for being here.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Thank you.

HARLOW: Look, we heard in that report about labor strikes, disagreements among pilots and their employers, it happens at the most expensive airlines, too, but when you look at budget carriers and some low wages for some of the pilots there, some reduced benefits in all of this, does that actually translate to less safe?

SCHIAVO: Well, actually it can. It depends on three things. It depends on whether the low-cost carrier skimps on pilot salaries, training and maintenance. For example, after ValuJet crash about 15 years ago into the Florida everglades, the National Transportation Safety Board found they skimped on maintenance and pilot pay and training, all three, and the crash as recently in the United States other than Asiana have been lower cost regional carriers, and they found that the piles didn't have sufficient training, didn't have sufficient pay, and that translated to problems. The FAA changed the regs and required more training.

HARLOW: Shouldn't we also keep in mind, though, that when we fly under the flag of the big carriers, the Delta, United, et cetera, a lot of times some of those smaller regional flights are actually being operated by other airlines. Some of them are lower cost budget airlines.

SCHIAVO: You know, Americans probably are surprised to learn that 54 percent of the flights in the United States of America are on these lower costs. They're usually lower cost regional carriers but they're lower cost to the airline. They're not lower cost to the passenger and the government attacked this problem, this disparity and safety way back in the '90s and they came up with the program called One Level of Safety.

And since that time it has gradually been bringing up the safety of these regional carriers but in some cases with wages and training they still have a ways to go. The pilots tend to have less hours and less experience.

HARLOW: And, Mary, I do want to ask you about this because this just happened today. Not about budget airlines but you had this United flight from Chicago to Los Angeles diverted to Denver after the co- pilot fainted during the trip. An HLN employee was onboard, said the crew followed protocol perfectly. They had two people in the cockpit right away after this. But how often do things like this happen? SCHIAVO: Well, quite a bit. In 2013, in fact, back-to-back weeks,

Alaska Airlines had two pilots. There was a flu bug going around and they passed out and the passengers saw that and that's why in the United States and now several countries have joined in after Germanwings, it's the two person in the cockpit rule. The pilot leaves, the flight attendant goes in, because it could be the one flying that has a medical emergency, and it happens probably several times a year.

[18:45:11] HARLOW: Mary Schiavo, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

HARLOW: Coming up -- coming up next, it is Easter Sunday and the Pope gave a very poignant address and message today from the Vatican, drawing attention to conflicts from the Middle East to Africa. What he said, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: It is a time of hope and rebirth for Christians around the world, but in Kenya, Easter Sunday is being celebrated with armed guards stationed outside of churches. The country ramping up security following that brutal terror attack this week. Militants killed 147 college students and executed many of them just for being Christians.

Joining me now, CNN religion commentator Father Edward Beck.

Thank you for being here. Happy Easter.

FR. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: Happy Easter. Thanks.

HARLOW: Thanks for spending part of it with me.

BECK: Sure.

HARLOW: Look, we've seen the persecution of Christians especially of late across the Middle East, across Africa. Do you see the problem of the persecution of Christians getting worse?

BECK: It certainly seems to. Cardinal Dolan said the other day -- Cardinal Dolan of New York -- that it's the worst that it's been since the first century.

HARLOW: Yes.

BECK: The persecution of Christians. And I think part of it is we're actually seeing what's happening. I mean, they're posting videos of it and in real time with social media --

[18:50:05] HARLOW: So we feel it more?

BECK: I think we feel it more but it is happening more, and that's why I think the Pope is speaking out against it because it's becoming such a problem. HARLOW: What -- he gave a really lovely remark at -- remarks at the

Vatican today, pointing to so many corners of this world where there has been persecution and atrocity from Syria and Iraq to Yemen to the Middle East to what happened in Kenya this week. What did you make of his message?

BECK: I think that he's speaking what people want to hear him say in the sense that he is the moral diplomat for the world. He is the peacemaker. He's the vicar of Christ on earth. So an Easter message has to be one that says what are we called to as an Easter people? And we just went through Good Friday, so he's acknowledging there are suffering everywhere in the world and he named all of those places.

But his point is, it shouldn't be the end for us. We're supposed to be a people of hope and it shouldn't be about violence and killing. It should be religion. It's supposed to bring people together. The word means to tie us back to our roots, and unfortunately the history of religion, much of it has been about warfare.

HARLOW: Do you think there has been a lot of talk about whether millennials, my generation, and younger Americans are turning away from religion? Obviously, not all of them, but do you think that we are seeing that and what can be done from people in your position?

BECK: Well, you know, I hate to say we have to make it relevant, but we have to somehow have them apply it to their lives and see where the relevance in their lives is. Millennials are turning away from institutional religion, but we're told by polls that they're praying more and more spiritual, because they perceive institutional religion as being judgmental, anti-gay, and they're saying I don't want to be part of that kind of institution, if that's what religion is, I don't want it. But I want spirituality. I want faith. How do I get to that?

HARLOW: I do want to bring up the finale of "FINDING JESUS," the CNN original series.

BECK: Yes.

HARLOW: It has gotten all of text, a lot of people talking about it. It's airing tonight. The episode looks at the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. Let me play a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RABBI DR. JOSHUA GARROWAY, HEBREW UNION COLLEGE: As a first century Jewish man, it would have been incredibly likely that Jesus would have been married during his lifetime.

PROF. CANDIDA MOSS, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: This is high stakes stuff, so if Jesus, the son of God, was married, maybe he had children. If he had that kind of an intimate relationship, people want to know and if he had children, that means that there might be people wondering around today with sort of holy blood in them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: So very controversial question. Did -- was Mary Magdalene sort of the -- you know, the partner of Jesus in all of this? What do we know?

BECK: You know, it's interesting, Poppy. The only one who has said that is Dan Brown in the "Da Vinci Codes."

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: People talk about it as though it's fact.

BECK: I know. It's nowhere in the scripture. Now Mary Magdalene is given a very heightened role. She is a follower of Jesus. Unusual for a rabbi to have women followers. We proclaimed today she is the first to visit the empty tomb and she carries the message of the resurrection to the disciples, so gee, he appears to a woman first? So he certainly exalted her position.

HARLOW: Yes.

BECK: But there's no indication in the scripture, even the Gnostic gospels, the apocrypha gospels, that they were married in any way. So it's interesting that we're having a whole show on it.

HARLOW: Yes.

BECK: But we'll see what they say about it.

HARLOW: We'll be watching it tonight. "FINDING JESUS, THE FINALE."

Happy Easter.

BECK: Happy Easter. Thanks.

HARLOW: Thank you for being with me, Fr. Beck. Appreciate it.

A reminder tonight on CNN, could the lost gospel of Mary Magdalene shed new light on her relationship with Jesus? The finale of "FINDING JESUS," 9:00 Eastern right here.

Coming up next, nutritionist have their own Easter message for the Pope. Stay away from the peas and the pasta. A little moment of levity next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:57:25] HARLOW: Here's a question for you. How do you tell the Pope that he might need to lose a few pounds? An Italian news agency is reporting doctors want him to lay off the pasta and to get a little bit more exercise.

Here's our Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nobody likes being told to put down their fork, so imagine how the Pope felt when he was allegedly told --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lay off the pasta.

MOOS (on camera): Lay off the pasta? Who wants to be the one to tell the Pope that?

(Voice-over): The Italian press agency Ansa reported that doctors told Pope Francis to eat less pasta and get more exercise. Vatican observers say that since he became Pope, Francis has grown not just in stature but in size, though it's hard to tell given what a pontiff wears, or maybe it's the Vatican Swiss Guard's vertical stripes that make the Pope look bigger.

He got some non-medical advice from the spaghetti-eating Cardinal Dolan on the "Today" show.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: Listen, Holy Father. You said you always listen to your cardinals. Listen to me. Get a new doctor.

MOOS: The Italian press agency reports doctors want the Pope to eat pasta just two days per week. But is it OK for him to eat pizza delivered directly to his Pope mobile? This after Francis said he missed stepping out unrecognized to get pizza.

This is a Pope who's been immortalized in cake, immortalized in chocolate. Who knew chocolate could look so slimming? The Pope is known to suffer from lower back pain and sciatica, conditions worsened by weight.

(On camera): Officially, the Vatican had no comment. Unofficially, we hear that the Pope's doctor denied talking to the press.

(Voice-over): Still, size doesn't stop the pontiff from being a non- magnet. "They are going to eat him alive," commented the cardinal. A weight loss clinic director once held a five pound model of fat to make a point about pasta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you like it or not to wear?

MOOS: This Pope could wear anything and people would still go crazy. At least there's plenty of him for a kid to hold on to.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Thanks so much for being with us. We've got a great lineup for you tonight right here on CNN, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Back-to-back episodes of the CNN original series "FINDING JESUS."

First, did Jesus have a brother? That's at 7:00, then at 8:00, "The True Cross." At 9:00, could Jesus have had a wife? Then at 10:00, you won't want to miss this, an all-new episode of "THE WONDER LIST," Bill Weir explores Venice and what it will take to save Venice from sinking. I'm Poppy Harlow. Thanks so much for being with me on this Easter

Sunday. Have a great week.