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Indiana Governor Orders Defends Freedom of Religion Law; Church Caught in Religious Freedom Debate; Lufthansa CEO Offers Help But No Answers. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 1, 2015 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[09:00:27] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, Indiana's governor in a fix over a fix. Despite major backlash he says it's not about changing the law, it's about changing how people perceive the state's Religious Freedom Law.

Plus, what did Lufthansa know and when did they know it? What we're finding out about the co-pilot of that plane that plunged into the Alps.

And nuclear talks go into overtime. Negotiators extending the deadline to hammer out an agreement on Iran's nuclear weapons program. But will more time help?

Let's talk live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

We start with a question. Is it freedom or discrimination? On one side those who say religious freedom laws in 19 states ensured their beliefs are not violated. On the other, critics who say those laws legalize discrimination against gays and lesbians.

And now Indiana Governor Mike Pence whose decision to sign one of these bill into law unleashed this tidal wave of controversy wants a fix. What that fix is, we don't exactly know yet. But we have new information on the timing.

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GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I've come to the conclusion that it would be helpful to move legislation this week that makes it clear that this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone.

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COSTELLO: Pence's request comes as another governor, Arkansas's Asa Hutchinson, follows through with his pledge to implement similar legislation. That decision could come as early as today.

CNN is covering all the angles. Rosa Flores is in Indianapolis, but we begin in Arkansas with Victor Blackwell.

Good morning, Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. I just spoke with the Governor's Office and they have said again that the governor will sign this bill. Again, this could happen as early as today.

We're expecting some public comment from the Governor's Office. They have not decided if it will be just a simple written statement or a news conference like we saw from Indiana's governor, but that should come by noon Eastern.

I also spoke with the House minority leader, Representative Eddie Armstrong, and he says that the session is going to end very soon and there are few options here in Arkansas for any type of fix. The deadline to present any bills to offer a fix has passed. The session is supposed to end tomorrow. But he calls it reckless to end a session this way. He's asking the governor to consider vetoing this bill based upon the economic impact on the state of Arkansas.

We're already hearing, though, from the largest private employer here in the state, Wal-Mart. They issued a statement after the House passed this bill yesterday.

And let's put it up on the screen. Wal-Mart CEO Doug McMillan says, "Today's passage of House Bill 1228 threatens to undermine the spirit of inclusion, present throughout the state of Arkansas, and does not reflect the values we proudly uphold. For these reasons we are asking Governor Hutchinson to veto this legislation.

As you saw there, there were more than 100 protesters with the human rights campaign here on the steps of the Arkansas capital asking the governor to veto the bill.

The bill's sponsor says that all those people simply do not understand the mission of this bill. He spoke with "NEW DAY" early this morning. Listen.

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BOB BALLINGER (R), ARKANSAS STATE HOUSE: There's a lot of passion. They don't want to see this bill passed and so they're -- I think that a lot of times people are getting the cart out before the horse and they just don't really realize what this is. I mean, this is really a relatively minor increase in protection for what a person believes and for the most part everyone believes that an individual should be able to carry out their beliefs the way they want without government interference.

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BLACKWELL: His argument that this prevents people from being forced to participate in activities that contradict their deeply held religious beliefs. The opponents of this bill say that it is just a thinly veiled discrimination bill against the LGBT community.

Again, we're expecting a statement from Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson by noon Eastern today -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Victor Blackwell, reporting live from Arkansas this morning.

Let's head to Indianapolis now and bring in CNN's Rosa Flores.

So, Rosa, Governor Pence facing criticism but he defends his actions. Here's what he said in an interview with Sean Hannity.

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PENCE: I stand by this law. The law doesn't need to be fixed, we need to fix the perception. And this law does not give anyone a license to discriminate. It's simply a balancing test that's used in our courts, has been used in the federal courts for more than 20 years. And so what we're contemplating today was that the legislature would send me a bill that simply makes it clear what was always -- is always the truth about this bill, that makes it clear that this law does not give businesses the right to deny services to anyone.

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[09:05:28] COSTELLO: All right. So, Rosa, the governor wants clarity, not change. What does that mean?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Carol, before I get into that, let me just tell you what's going on right now as we speak inside the capital. So I just talked to the speaker of the House. He tells me that they're expecting for that language that will provide clarity tomorrow morning.

He also tells me that he is meeting with the governor today. Now my producer is inside the capital right now and tells me that he just walked in to the governor's office. So they're meeting right now behind closed doors discussing exactly what we're talking about right now, the language, perhaps.

Now about the clarity. The speaker of the House has told me several times that one of the things that could be included in this bill, that could provide clarity, is something specific as this, saying that the RFRA law cannot be used as a defense in a discrimination case.

Now you're probably wondering, we've heard a lot of people who oppose this law. But is anyone in Indiana supporting this law? There are some. We found one, a business owner. Here's what he said.

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CASEY SAMSON, OWNER, SAMSON FAMILY LEATHER: Well, I think what the law does for us is protects us from the government forcing us to do something that we're not comfortable with, whether that challenges our religious beliefs or moral beliefs. I know the law focuses on religion, but there's so much specific for our religion that ties into our moral beliefs at the same time. And it just protects us from being forced to do something against our will.

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FLORES: And examples of that, perhaps, Carol, I asked him. So give me an example of what that would be and he said, OK, so he personalizes leather products. And he said if someone walks into my store and asks me to personalize one of my products with either hate speech or a racial slur, he said that he wants to be able to say no to that.

Now he's gotten a lot of backlash, let me tell you something, because he's been out front about supporting this law. He also says that some business owners have thanked him for standing up and speaking publicly on such a controversial issue.

COSTELLO: All right. Rosa Flores, we'll check back with you. Thanks so much.

There's been a lot of talk about Jesus in light of this controversy and what he would do. Although as RedState's Erick Erickson points out in his blog this morning, "I have no authority to talk about Jesus for I and the rest of the media are," in Erickson's world, "agents of Satan" for forcing Christians to violate their conscience. Erickson claims if these religious freedom laws are rescinded it could change the church as we know it.

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ERICK ERICKSON, REDSTATE: If the state has the power to change the definition of an institution that it did not create but that God himself created, the state can compel and coerce the church who honor the definition or sit on the sidelines and stay silent. A Christian on the sidelines is a Christian not going forth. A Christian on the sidelines is a Christian not engaged in the great commission Christ himself gave us.

You can be a sincere Christian and support the idea of gay marriage. I think you're wrong, but you can. But you would be foolish to ignore what is going to happen to the church once the state decides something is a matter of equal protection.

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COSTELLO: With me now to talk about this. Matthew Vines. He's an evangelical Christian. He's gay, he's a youth leader. And he's the author of the bestselling book "God and the Gay Christian."

Welcome, Matthew.

MATTHEW VINES, AUTHOR, GOD AND THE GAY CHRISTIANS: Thank you so much for having me, Carol.

COSTELLO: I'm glad you're here. Is Erickson right? VINES: No, Erick Erickson's views represent the belief of the older

guard within, even the conservative church. I represent the views of my generation, the millennials, who tend to have a much more open stance on this issue. In facer, even I grew up in Wichita, Kansas, in an evangelical church there. At even in the evangelical world, there have been several major churches in the last several months that have become fully affirming of the LGBT community and that are arguing that being gay is not a sin.

And that Christians who read the way that Erickson does, who read the bible that way, are reading it incorrectly.

COSTELLO: OK. We're going to get more into that in just a second. I want to -- I want to read you something else Erickson wrote this morning.

He said, quote, "There is no evidence Jesus baked a cake to celebrate sin but the media wants you to think he did. Just pay no attention to the guy in the bible who spoke the most about hell fire. Oh, wait, that would be the very same Jesus."

Is that what the state is asking Christians to do?

VINES: These kinds of laws are actually allowing Christians to distort their faith, not to express it. Jesus said that greatness comes through humbling yourself and serving others, not through refusing to serve others. For Christians to want to fight on this issue and to use their political power in order to refuse service to others is a complete misrepresentation of the Jesus that we find in the gospels and the Jesus that the Christian tradition has historically honored and seek to live our lives after.

COSTELLO: I think what some Christians believe is that they're forced to participate at a gay wedding and they don't believe in homosexuality and they believe it's a sin, which is their right. That this will spill over into their church and they'll be forced to worship a certain way.

VINES: Those are two separate issues. Making a cake for someone, even for someone's wedding, is not participating in that wedding in any way that requires you to change your beliefs about that subject.

Churches will always have the right to marry whomever they want to marry or not marry whomever they want to marry. At the same time, that's not to say that we won't have more of a conversation within the church about how we should respond to this topic. But that's an intra-family conversation, within Christianity. It's not about government coercion.

And I do believe that Christians should be going back to scripture, taking a much more careful look as I argue in my book. That the bible does not condemn same-sex relationships that are based on long-term commitment and love and that the bible's core teachings about marriage, that marriage is about keeping covenant with your spouse to reflect God's covenant with humanity. That's something that same-sex couples can live out and at the same time of relationships do embody. COSTELLO: OK. And I want to get back to the number of young

evangelicals who accept same-sex marriage. A poll from the Public Religion Research Institute, a nonpartisan groups, shows the majority of evangelical Christians under the age of 35 support same-sex marriage.

So just I wanted to get that out because you weren't making up those statistics up, not by a long shot. My final question, though, I want to look at the glass half full. When all is said and done, is there any good that can come of this debate?

VINES: Yes. The good is that the backlash to this debate is helping to show more Christians that wanting to refuse service to the LGBT community or to anyone is a terrible way to be representing our faith. I think that allows me and the work that I'm doing, the conferences that I'm running, I'm running a conference in Atlanta, that's June, through the reformation project, the organization that I run.

And we're working to train Christians who want to be more vocal in changing their churches, making their churches passionately inclusive of the LGBT community. And I think that this is -- this backlash is a wakeup call to Christians. That they way we've been operating is not acceptable. And now people like me have the opportunity to say from a Christian standpoint it's not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus.

COSTELLO: Matthew Vines, thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.

VINES: Thank you so much.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, amid new revelations about of the co- pilot's depression issues, families of crash victims are demanding answers.

Frederik Pleitgen is in Dusseldorf.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'll have the latest on the Germanwings crash investigation and also that new information that Lufthansa knew that its co-pilot had psychological problems.

All that and more when we come back.

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[09:17:18] COSTELLO: Our grief is still with us, every day, everywhere. Those words from the CEO of Lufthansa as he visited a memorial to the victims of Flight 9525, promising to help as long as help is needed.

But what the families of those killed in that crash want to know now are answers. Why was Andreas Lubitz allowed to fly, after the airline now admits it knew about his severe depression diagnosis six years ago?

But as you're about to see, the CEO refused to give any answers at all.

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CARSTEN SPOHR, LUFTHANSA CEO: Merci beaucoup. Merci.

REPORTER: Sir, when did you find the 2009 e-mail from Lubitz?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, there's no --

REPORTER: Why did it take you so long to publish this email?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no questions and answers.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: At least he didn't run away.

Frederik Pleitgen is following the story from Dusseldorf, Germany.

Hi, Fred.

PLEITGEN: Hi, Carol.

Yes, and I do think we need to give the CEO of Lufthansa the benefit of the doubt, though. Maybe he didn't feel that setting would be appropriate to answer those questions. But certainly, the questions are out there and there are many people who want answers from Lufthansa at this point in time.

We have to keep in mind that right after the crash, Lufthansa said that, yes, Lubitz had taken a break during the time he was in pilot training around 2008, 2009. However, they didn't specify the reasons. They even said this wasn't something that was uncommon.

Even back then, there were questions as to why he would have taken that break.

Then, later, the state prosecutor in Dusseldorf came out and said, yes, Lubitz did have suicidal tendencies around or shortly before that time, however, he was also receiving psychological counseling around the time now of the crash. But at this point, psychologist didn't consider him a threat to himself or be a threat to anyone else.

So, certainly, the big question is, how much of this information did Lufthansa at what point? They came out with a statement where they said they had looked through their files again, they had found this e- mail correspondence where Lubitz in 2009 told the Lufthansa school that he was taking time off, he was informing them that he had had very heavy depressions at a previous period.

So, the big question is, at what point during this investigation did Lufthansa know about this and why didn't they come up with this information any earlier, Carol. COSTELLO: Let's talk about the leaks that have been out there,

including this possible cell phone video taken inside the plane as it went down. There are conflicting reports about the voracity of those reports and if it's fake or if it's real. What are you hearing?

PLEITGEN: Well, this is apparently the work of a French investigative journalist who worked with "The Bild" newspaper of Germany, as well as "Paris Match" of France.

[19:20:09] And I actually know the manager of "Bild" who's in charge with all of this quite well. His name is Julian Reichelt. He is someone who I have to say is an exceptional journalist. I have talked to him about this.

Now, he is very confident about the authenticity of the video. He says he has seen it. He told our own NEW DAY crew earlier today what exactly is on the video.

Let's have a look.

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JULIAN REICHELT, EDITOR-IN-CHEF, BILD ONLINE: We saw the video with our colleagues at "Paris Match", and it was kind of disturbing, upsetting material. You know, it's shot in the cabin. It shows that there was, you know, a lot of chaos going on, that people apparently were very much aware of where this was heading.

It also seemed to document that there was a metallic bang -- what sounds like a metallic bang on a door which, you know, is kind of in line with, you know, results of the previous investigation that say that the pilot was trying to break into the cockpit. That is what we saw.

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PLEITGEN: That was Julian Reichelt of the "Bild" newspaper of Germany. Of course, some chilling information that seems to be coming out.

But, you're right, the French prosecutor who's in charge of all this, of course, very angry about all of this. The French have said that they think that these newspaper reports are untrue and they've also come out and said that so far, no cell phone video has been used in the investigation and if anybody has any, they need to turn it over immediately. So, they certainly are calling for this video if it's out there to be handed over immediately -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Frederik Pleitgen reporting live from Dusseldorf, Germany, this morning.

So, let's talk more about this. I want to bring in Mary Schiavo. She's a CNN aviation analyst, former inspector for the U.S. Department of Transportation, and now works with a law firm representing airplane crash victims.

Welcome, Mary.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: I'm glad you're here.

So, you saw the Lufthansa CEO at the memorial site near the crash site and the press conference ended so uncomfortably.

Should he have gone?

SCHIAVO: Well, he should have done some explaining. But I'm sure he'll have to do some explaining and investigation, because the fact that they had this notice should have set off a set of events. I mean, he have reached mental illness and mental health treatment, where it does get treated like other conditions, if you had a condition for a heart condition, for example. Even bladder medication, you have to report it, it has to be tested, you have to see if you can tolerate the medicine.

What should have happened when Lubitz reported this to Lufthansa is a period of his medicals should have been removed. He should have had testing. They had to evaluate whether his treatment actually was successful and if the medications he would be on for that treatment were approved.

So, I think that this memo shows that they clearly did not do what they were supposed to have done. Maybe that's why he stopped talking, probably wise on his part.

COSTELLO: Of course, the fact that this co-pilot suffered from depression came through another leak, right? If I were a family member, I might be a little concerned because in the initial press conference with the airline, their people came out and said this. Let's listen.

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SPOHR (through translator): There was, I want to mention this, a longer break in his training six years ago but after his qualifications had been checked again, he had taken up his training again. Following that, he passed all medical and flight related test. He was 100 percent fit to fly without any limitations or requirements.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, did he skip over the part of that e-mail chain that said that this guy was suffering from severe depression and neglect to tell all of us at the time? What happened do you think?

SCHIAVO: Or he didn't find it until the investigators showed up with the French equivalent of a subpoena and said, we'll be taking all these records now, thank you very much.

It's possible that the latter is the case as well. But it's kind of a misnomer what he said, because when he said he showed up and reentered the flight training, at that point, if he didn't resurface his psychological problems, his psychiatric problems, then he would have simply checked he didn't have any. That would have broken that very important chain of information that allows the airline and the airline's medical review officer, every airline has one, you're required.

That helps them monitor, you know, just mental health conditions, any other condition. You know, we're not taking on people's mental health. For example, women going through menopause. Female pilots have to report hormonal treatments.

It's really about reporting and making sure the medications don't harm your ability to fly. So, mental health is just one of the conditions you have to follow.

COSTELLO: I understand. OK. So, I want to go back to the leaking of information for just a minute. I mean, the co-pilot's depression was leaked, the lockout of the cabin was leaked. The timeline was leaked.

Is this just someone who wants to make money by selling information to journalists who will buy it? I shouldn't call them journalists because journalists don't buy information. Or is this someone who doesn't think the airline has been forthcoming?

[09:25:03] SCHIAVO: My guess is somebody who doesn't think the airline is forthcoming, because it would be difficult to see how they could be making money at this, particularly the crash site cell phone, because that's extremely serious because you've tampered with a crime scene. You've moved away evidence. You secreted away and tampered with evidence.

And, remember, that property belongs to someone, and there are also standards. In the United States, it's law that those personal effects must be collected and there must be an effort to return them. So, not only has he tampered or whoever it is tampered with a criminal investigation or removed evidence, they've also stolen property.

So, it's a highly significant thing. But that being said, I personally believe that it probably is accurate, I have had other crash cases that I've worked on where there was cell phone video that survived.

COSTELLO: Mary Schiavo, thanks for your insight as always. I appreciate it.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM: John Boehner in Jerusalem, meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Why both are in total agreement on an Iran nukes deal. We'll talk about that next.

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COSTELLO: And good morning. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Carol Costello.

The deadline has come and gone, but world leaders are still trying to hammer out a nuclear deal with Iran. Despite some progress, officials say a major roadblock -- well, more than one major roadblock remains.

All of this as the Republican House Speaker John Boehner travels to Israel and meets with the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who says a potential agreement threatens the security of his country.