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Airline Knew of Depression; Indiana Religious Freedom Law. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 31, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:07] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Here we go. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

Breaking news here in the apparent deliberate crash of that Germanwings flight. Here's what we now know. This cell phone - really this card out of this cell phone, it was found at the crash site, reportedly contains video of the final, terrifying moments on board this flight, Flight 9525. And according to this German tabloid "Bild," in "Paris Match," that's a French magazine, they were working together, they have this card. And in it they have been able to see this video that showed chaos. And you could hear the screams as cries of "My God" could be heard in multiple languages.

All of this as we are getting this new revelation here about how much this airline, Lufthansa, knew about the co-pilot's mental state when they hired him. That airline now admitting, after further internal investigations, that it knew that Andreas Lubitz had suffered depression. And specifically medical documentation from the co-pilot himself to his flight school a couple of years ago about a, quote, "previous episode of severe depression."

So I have a lot to get through here. CNN's Will Ripley joins me now from Dusseldorf. I also have Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the U.S. Transportation Department. And Justin Green is with me, aviation attorney and pilot.

But, Will, first to you. I mean can you just talk me through what we're learning about this - it's been described, no one's publishing the video, but the description here of these final moments on this plane.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, you know, we've been - we've been remarking this week that the weather has been worsening, although it's cleared up a bit. And the details that continue to emerge day after day just keep getting worse for these families.

First, we heard about the cockpit voice recording transcript, which described that terrifying eight-minute descent. And now word that this - this card from a cell phone with recoverable video has uncovered and been reported upon by "Bild" and that French magazine as well.

This video describing, as you said, the final moments. Too shaky, too chaotic on the video to be able to see what was happening, but to hear the screams, to hear that metallic banging believed to be the pilot captain, Patrick Sondenheimer, trying to break into the cockpit. The terror as people were looking out the windows, seeing the French Alps, that terrain getting closer and closer. And then, of course, that catastrophic impact that obliterated pretty much everything and yet somehow this card survived, was found, and was leaked to the press.

It is heartbreaking for the families of the 150 people who were on that plane that they have to continue to learn just how awful it was in those final minutes, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And reading about it in the press from this tabloid. To be clear, again, I guess these publications, they're not publishing the video, but the descriptions are pretty - it's pretty traumatic to read. And, you know, to your point, Will, and, Mary, let me pose this to you, having, you know, investigated a number of situations, the odds of a SIM card from inside of someone's cell phone surviving this kind of impact - I mean you have seen the debris on this mountain - have you ever heard of such a thing?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Actually, yes.

BALDWIN: Really?

SCHIAVO: And I have other cases that I've worked before where the phone and the phone video and the phone recording survived. You would be surprised on how many occasions - now most of them I can't talk about because most of them are subject to a protective order, but many times they do survive. In fact, I wrote a book a while back and I said in there, you know, if something goes wrong on your plane, start recording. Leave a trail.

BALDWIN: And that is precisely what someone did. What we don't know, and I'm just glancing down. I was handed this piece of paper. We don't know if the person who took the video was a member of the crew, an astute, quick-thinking member of the crew, knowing this plane was going to go down, or a passenger. But according to this newspaper, the recording was made from the back of the plane.

What strikes me, Justin, too, is that if it was the back of the plane, but what could be heard was the metallic banging on the cockpit door. I don't know how familiar you are with an Airbus 320, but to me that's telling me that banging was pretty darn loud to be all the way up in the front of the plane if someone was taking this video on a cell phone in the back.

JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: I think that's right. And what we talked about before we came on the air has to be said, is that this is the leakiest investigation I think I've ever heard - maybe Mary has never - you know, heard some even leakier one, but I haven't. And this information coming out, the video information can be very important in accident investigations but it -

[14:05:02] BALDWIN: It's a piece of evidence.

GREEN: But it should be with the investigators. It shouldn't be with the tabloids. At this point the families don't need to turn on their TV, don't need to go to the store and see this on the front page of a tabloid.

BALDWIN: Mary, do you agree with, Justin, this is the leakiest investigation you've ever seen?

SCHIAVO: I've seen some leaky ones in my day, particularly when I was in the department. But Justin's right because the way the NTSB handles it is when they have information like this - for example, on September 11, 2001, flight, Flight 93, the families were asked if they wanted to hear the CVR. They had professional help standing by. Only those who opted in. It was treated with the utmost of discretion and only those who wanted to know this did know this to help protect the families. So this is just a terrible way for these families to hear it. Unprecedented in that regard.

BALDWIN: When you do hear some of the details - and, again, we're just giving the description and that's as far as we'll go. But when you hear metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object, and that jives with what we read as part of this transcript that was also leaked by this German paper, "Bild." And then, Mary, towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Perhaps that heavy shake, again, corroborating with the transcript when apparently the plane wing might have hit a mountain top.

SCHIAVO: Exactly. And, again, the parallels to United Flight 93 from September 11, 2001, are rather eerie because, in that case, they did try to use the catering cart to bang down the cockpit door, the passengers and the flight attendants did try to do that. Depending upon the airline rules, they can have a flight ax. But that - the food cart could have made that kind of a sound. And it's a long way to the back of 320, so it must have been horrifically loud.

BALDWIN: And then just one more quickly to you before we talk legalities and this other news, Justin, about what was learned about this co-pilot many years ago in reporting depression. Um, I'm forgetting my train of thought. Let me just actually move to that, Justin, because the other piece of this that we're learning today was that when this pilot was part of this flight training school, this was back in 2009, there was actual documentation of him discussing, you know, bouts of depression. And so only through internal investigation, you have to imagine Lufthansa, you know, turning over every single rock of his past to try to figure out, what could we have known? In order to become a pilot with Lufthansa, how would they not have seen this documentation from years ago?

GREEN: They must - they must have seen it and they must have known. And the question I have is, having known that he had depression, what steps did they take in order to make sure it wasn't anything worse than that and whether he was, in fact, fit to fly. And apparently he wasn't fit to fly because we've heard stories and apparently they're confirmed that he was psychotic.

BALDWIN: Right. What steps - before we come back to the legality of the airline -

GREEN: Sure.

BALDWIN: Versus anyone else, what sort of steps, Mary, would an airline have to take in order to hire someone as a pilot?

SCHIAVO: Right.

BALDWIN: I mean you could even use a U.S. example. But what kinds of steps would someone have to go through and what kind of records would be checked and followed up on?

SCHIAVO: Right. Many. Many. And, in fact, in the United States, having any suicidal ideation, thoughts of suicide and psychosis, not just depression, any kind of psychosis and taking more than one psychotropic or psychotic alleviating drug disqualifies you from the cockpit. That's it, you're done. Suicidal thought, you're out of the cockpit.

Now, if you take an anti-depressant, there are only four allowed in the United States. It's Prozac, Lexapro, Zoloft, and Celexa. You have to be monitored. You have to have a medical exam every six months. And the airline has to provide a letter to the FAA every three months that they are monitoring you. And this is for depression with one drug only. This pilot, under U.S. law, would not fly.

BALDWIN: So when you talk about potential legal issues here and you're wondering if, you know, you lost a loved one on this plane and you're learning that there was, you know, physical documentation from multiple years ago that these issues that she just outlined were present in his - in his, you know, medical records, I'm wondering how much the airline, how much Lufthansa is to blame for that.

GREEN: Right. The airline has to make a decision whether it's going to come into court and fight their liability. And I think that this information tells me that they're not going to come in and fight their liability. They're going to come in and say, look, we're going to compensate the families fairly. Under - under - you know, the law does not allow us to go after the airline for punitive damages. So what the airline's liability for is basically to make sure that the families stay in their homes, that the kids stay in school, that the families, you know, lifestyle remains the same.

BALDWIN: OK. Both of you, let me just ask you to stay with me. I have more for you.

There have been a lot of reports, rumors about this co-pilot's love life. But now let's talk about the facts. Sources are telling CNN about his girlfriend and what she says about their relationship and what she might have known.

[14:10:02] Also ahead, just in, one of the search officials raising the possibility that the second black box, that flight data recorder, may be buried. Hear how they would retrieve it.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. We'll be back after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Breaking news on CNN here. This cell phone video - this actually, let's be precise, it was a card that was found in this cell phone showing some of the video, this was found at the crash site, reportedly containing footage of the final moments onboard Germanwings Flight 9525. Just an absolutely horrific piece of evidence here as part of this investigation.

And as we are learning, as investigators are learning a bit more about a possible motive for why this young co-pilot, this 27-year-old, Andreas Lubitz, may have intentionally steered the plane into the side of a mountain, here's what we're learning on that. A source telling CNN that investigators are working on the theory that Lubitz was worried that his medical problems would have forced him out of his job and stripped him of his license to fly.

[14:15:02] Will Ripley back with me from Dusseldorf, Germany. Also still with me, CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo and aviation attorney and pilot Justin Green.

Will, let me begin, though, with what investigators are learning in talking to this young man's girlfriend and what she knew ahead of time, if anything. What did she share with them?

RIPLEY: Well, and keep in mind, Brooke, too, this is a girlfriend that he met back when he was growing up about two hours from here and working at Burger King flipping burgers. A member of the local gliding club. A teenager who dreamed of flying. So these two have known each other for quite some time. They've been in a long-term relationship. And they have had some problems as of late. But she told investigators she was very optimistic that they would work the problems out. And she was shocked, just like everyone else, about what Lubitz did.

However, she knows that he saw two doctors recently, an eye doctor and a neuro physicist. And she also told investigators that she knew that both of those doctors deemed Lubitz unfit to fly because of his psychological problems. So she was aware that he shouldn't have been flying. However, she thought that things were apparently better with him, with them as a couple, than they were because she never could have imagined what he was going to do, which just goes to show you that even if you're in a close relationship with someone for years, they may be hiding a secret, a secret that Lubitz hit so effectively, not only from his girlfriend, but his co-workers, from his employer. They were aware of his depression. The question, though, to what extent and was he able to convince them that he was OK. Clearly he wasn't. But who knew?

BALDWIN: That's - that's the thing that's missing in all of this, according to your report and our crew's reporting, that so far investigators have not been able to find any shred of evidence that he spoke with anyone or even wrote anything down of his intentions or his motive of why he would want to do this.

Mary, to Will's point about multiple doctors now we're hearing - and we know about the note that was shredded up in his apartment waste basket from a doctor saying unfit for duty, unfit to work. Part of this early motive that's coming out from investigators is this notion that perhaps, you know, he was worried that it would get out to his employer, to the airline, that because of his medical conditions, he'd be yanked out of the cockpit. My issue with that is, so why would you then feel the need to fly and take the lives of 149 people with you?

SCHIAVO: Well, that's a big mystery. But I think the multiple doctors is the key. Even under the United States federal aviation regulations, if you're taking more than one anti-depressant, if you have combined your medication, it's the combination effect. If one won't control - one of the four approved ones, won't control the depression, you can't mix them up. You can't go to several doctors and forum shop for the right, you know, for the cocktail of drugs that you want. And I think, without a doubt, he would have lost his medical and his ability to fly, particularly with any kind of vision problems, which he imagined with it. So I think that probably gives us our motive right there.

BALDWIN: All right. So perhaps the motive there and also, Justin, let me just read this. This is also what we have today into CNN. This is from the commander, this is part of the recovery team there on the mountain in the French Alps, in saying on the - we know they found the cockpit voice recorder and so much, obviously, was gleaned from that. But they're also looking for the other black box that the - the flight data recorder. So they're saying there's a possibility that that second black box could have been buried under the shale and gravel at the crash site given the speed of the crash, but that recovering the black box is the team's priority. Can you just remind us, once they find that, I'm just going to be optimistic, once they find it, what - what will they learn from that?

GREEN: Well, the flight data recorder is basically going to give all of the information about what the airplane was doing. And in this case, very often the - like I like to describe it, the flight data recorder, it says what the airplane is doing and the cockpit voice recorder sometimes will say why the pilots are doing something. So the flight data recorder will say what input the pilot made to the autopilot, for example, or whether he pushed forward on the side stick. And then the - the cockpit voice recorder usually will give some information of what the pilots were thinking and why perhaps that they made their actions.

BALDWIN: Mary, I was asking you if you'd ever heard of even the SIM card, going back to the cell phone video that ultimately was found and part of, you know, has been put out there with this French magazine and this German newspaper. I mean, to you, the notion of finding - we know they found the outer metallic casing of this thing, but are you confident that they will, somewhere under this shale and the gravel of this, you know, monumentous space in France, will they find it?

SCHIAVO: Well, I think they probably have a pretty good chance of finding it. If they find it - let's put it this way, if they find it, I think they will have data. I really don't think that they won't be able to get data off of it. But in this particular crash, the cockpit voice recorder might indeed be the more valuable.

BALDWIN: Yes. SCHIAVO: Usually it's that flight data recorder, because we're trying to piece together why the plane crashed. Here they might have gotten a crucial piece of evidence already.

[14:20:02] BALDWIN: All right, Mary Schiavo, Justin Green, and Will Ripley, thank you all very much.

Just ahead, we have more on our breaking news here, including where search crews are in their efforts there in the French Alps and beyond.

Plus, another breaking story here on this Tuesday. Indiana's governor standing before reporters trying to clarify this controversial religion law that he signed. Hear how he answers critics about whether it discriminates against gays and lesbians. And I will speak live with the editor behind this front page. Those three little words that has everyone's attention today. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A perception problem that needs to be clarified and fixed. Those words today coming from Indiana's Republican Governor Mike Pence about the state's new controversial religious freedom law. After protests and backlash and businesses pulling out, huge public outcry, the governor is now asking state lawmakers to send him legislation this week to correct the problem. Critics argue that the law's intent was to make it legal to discriminate and deny services to gays and lesbians. The governor then strongly denies that claim. Here he was today.

[14:25:03] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: The Religious Freedom Restoration Act was about religious liberty, not about discrimination. As I said last week, had this law been about legalizing discrimination, I would have vetoed it. This law does not give anyone a license to discriminate. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act in Indiana does not give anyone the right to deny services to anyone in this state.

Was I expecting this kind of backlash? Heavens no. To be candid with you, you know, when - when I first heard about the legislation, heard that it was already federal law for more than 20 years, I heard that it was the law through statute and court decisions in 30 jurisdictions. In the wake of last year's Supreme Court case, the Hobby Lobby case, I just thought it was an appropriate addition to Indiana's statutes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: He mentioned the federal laws and other state laws. Let me just spell this out for you. Even though similar religious freedom laws are indeed on the books in other state, all those yellow states you see, Indiana's law stands out because it does allow a person, even a business, to cite religious beliefs as a legal defense in private disputes. And that is even if the government is not, in any way, involved. Now to this. You've seen the cover of "The Indianapolis Star." Black

and white, bold, "Fix This Now" makes it crystal clear, obviously, how the newspaper feels about this new law, pointedly telling the governor and lawmakers and who knows who else, fix this now. The paper's executive editor and vice president, Jeff Taylor, joins me now.

Jeff, welcome.

JEFF TAYLOR, EXECUTIVE EDITOR AND VICE PRESIDENT, "THE INDIANAPOLIS STAR": Thank you.

BALDWIN: So I will get to your, you know, very bold three words here on the cover page, but first let's get to the news since the printing of the paper. We just played some sound from the governor saying, you know, that, yes, he wants to amend this law, that he abhors discrimination, but he's not going to add those additional protections for gays and lesbians. Not on his agenda. What is your - your paper's response to that?

TAYLOR: Well, we haven't prepared a response to that. We're still actively covering the story today. You know, the governor said that he wants to amend this or to pass legislation that will make it clear that this law can't be used as a tool for discrimination. We haven't seen the specific language yet. We haven't seen the details. We'll need to see that as the days unfold here ahead of us.

BALDWIN: Windy there. Windy in Indianapolis. But I'm going to continue going.

TAYLOR: It is.

BALDWIN: I still can - I can hear you. But, you know, your paper's bold black and white cover photo "Fix This Now," is that a message, Jeff, to the governor? And who else? And how risky, by the way, was this for you all considering there are many other conservative areas of your state?

TAYLOR: We - we made the decision that we needed to take - make a bold statement. The state was in a crisis moment. We believe that we had a responsibility to say emphatically what we thought needed to happen for the state to begin to move forward. And, you know, the basis of that was that we can't take half steps here. There needs to be significant, bold steps taken to address the concerns about whether the law could be used to discriminate. Our position was that while we value religious freedom, that's a fundamental value, and we believe in the First Amendment protections there. We also believe in equality for all and that we can have a situation in the state where equality protections are in place for everyone at the same time that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is in place. It exists in other places. It can exist here.

BALDWIN: You know, in talking about other places and talking about being in the thick of it, I know, you know, you have reporters covering this right now. You're in the middle of it. And part of that here, you're a member of the media, I'm a member of the media, and I heard the governor today really, you know, raking the media over the coals for what he called this smear campaign against this law. Do you think the governor is being fair blaming the media? I mean how has this story been told, at least from your paper's perspective, since day one?

TAYLOR: Well, I think blaming the media is always part of what you hear from - in these situations. But I think that if you really look at the coverage that's been done, I can speaking for us, we have worked hard to try to make sure that we present all sides of the - all views in this. We published opinion pieces from people who are on both sides of the law. And, you know, we looked at the - a what the law really means.

[14:29:50] A story that we published on Sunday took a deep dive into what it means. And the reality is that the law probably is not as bad ultimately as critics might fear. And it's also not as clear cut and focused and narrow as the proponents would want everyone to believe either.