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Indiana Governor Mike Pence Holds News Conference; Controversy Around Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired March 31, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, every one. I am Kate Bolduan.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman and we do have breaking news for you. Any minute now we expect a news conference from Indiana Governor Mike Pence. You're looking at live pictures right now. The governor is at the center of a swirling controversy. This is the third day in a row that he has spoken out, defended or justified the religious freedom law he signed last week, a law that critics say allows businesses to discriminate against gays.

Now, as a result, several cities and states have banned government funded travel to Indiana. The governor says this is about protecting religious freedom.

BOLDUAN: The governor writes in an opinion piece for today's "Wall Street Journal" that the law has in his view been grossly misconstrued as a license to discriminate. And a short time ago, Pence he spoke out once again now pledging to fix the law and clarify that it does not condone discrimination against gays and lesbians. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: You know there are no kinder more hospitable people in America than here in Indiana. If we have to make adjustments in this law to make it clear that simply that this law was never intended, as some have mischaracterized it, to create the impression that businesses have the right to turn away customers on the basis of sexual orientation, or any other reason, we're going to fix that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: But then you have this. You have the state really erupting in protests both on the streets as well as in some boardrooms. Businesses with interests in Indiana now almost demanding that the governor do something about it or else. And then there is the front page of the "Indianapolis Star" editorial. It reads very simply, "Fix this now".

And right now it all comes down to this press conference and what the governor is going to say and what will happen next.

[11:00:06] Let's go straight to Indianapolis first off. Rosa Flores is there for us. So Rosa what are you expecting to hear from the Governor?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Kate, we don't know exactly what the governor is going to say, but what I can tell you is that Republicans and the governor have been playing an interesting dance since yesterday, with Republican leadership saying yesterday that, not exactly that the governor had bombed the interview with ABC, but saying, you know, he didn't do a very good job at answering ABC's questions.

That's why we're holding a press conference today. That's why it's fascinating that now the governor is coming forward now, in front of reporters, and holding this press conference. But Republicans did make it clear that one of their goals now is to clarify the language of the bill. Take a listen to what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN BOSMA, (R) INDIANA HOUSE SPEAKER: What we're looking at, right now, is specific clarity to remove the misconception that RFRA allows the denial of services to any Hoosier.

DAVID LONG, (R) INDIANA SENATE PRESIDENT PRO TERM: The fact that he didn't, for whatever reason, we're setting the record straight today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Now, until now, the governor has not minced words, making it very clear that he has been for the clarification of the language of the bill, but in no way, up to now, has he said that he is for clearing this law from the books. So, Kate and John, it's going to be fascinating to hear what he says, because Democrats have been pushing for the repeal of this bill, and while they don't control chambers here, you know that they have the support of a lot of people from around the country.

BOLDUAN: And everyone is paying attention, but what is the way to fix it without throwing it out? That's going to be -- why all eyes are on the governor right now. Rosa, thank you very much. We're going to be sticking very close. We're watching for that press conference to start.

BERMAN: Let's talk more now about the politics, the law, the finances. So many implications about what you're about to see here with Governor Pence speaking any minute.

BOLDUAN: Joining us to discuss, Chief Political Analyst, Gloria Borger, CNN Political Commentator and New York Times Columnist, Ross Douthat , Indianapolis Star Opinion Editor, Tim Swarens, and CNN Political Commentator, Margaret Hoover. Margaret is president of The American Unity Fund, which actively lobbied for changes to Indiana law to protect LGBT rights.

Gloria, let me first go to you. If your anybody -- I have a special interest in this as a Hoosier. I care about what my state looks like and what's going on in my state, as well as anybody does looking from the outside in. But what is going on here? Did Pence just underestimate what going to be coming at him? He's a smart politician.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: I think Pence and the legislature did. Look, these religious freedom laws were originally intended to protect minorities from burdensome regulations against them. And what's happened here is that over the years, these laws have been used in a kind of a perversion to discriminate. There are states that have these kinds of laws on the books, but there are lots of states that also make it very clear that you cannot use these laws to discriminate against, for example, homosexuals.

So, in an effort to protect religious groups, you end up discriminating against other groups. What's different about the Indiana law is that it treats for-profit businesses as churches. And maybe there's a way, and I'm not -- and I'm not a legal expert here, but maybe there's a way for the legislature to say this is not meant to discriminate against gays. Period.

BERMAN: Margaret -

BORGER: Whether it's making them a protected class, I'm not quite sure how that would be done.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Here's exactly how it would be done. How it would be done, two amendments were suggested to this law that were voted down by the legislature. One amendment would've said, fine, have your restoration -- freedom restoration act. We respect religious freedom, but we're going to except civil rights laws. So civil rights laws will be protected. Another amendment, which was voted down, would've said, fine, then we're going to say it's in the interest of Illinois to eliminate discrimination. So that --

BOLDUAN: In Indiana.

HOOVER: In Indiana, sorry. Indiana, not Illinois. And if they said that as an amendment, it's in the interest of the state to eliminate discrimination, then it might have passed the heightened scrutiny test, when, inevitably, a state of lawsuits open up, because this is going to be thrown to the courts for judges to apply heightened scrutiny.

[ 11:04:43] BERMAN: Tim Swarnes, do we have you yet? Is Tim with us yet? Okay, let me go to Ross Douthat. Ross, you know, you write today in the New York Times, actually it's very interesting, you acknowledge, which some conservatives don't. You say, let's be clear about this, that this law in Indiana, last week, was driven largely by people concerned about issues, such as, will florists have to sell flowers or make wedding cakes for gay weddings. You say that was the impotence, here, for this law, at least in part. But what are critics missing here? You also say there are larger issues at play here that we have to consider.

ROSS DOUTHAT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, first of all, critics are just getting the genesis, history and design of these laws wrong. And Gloria, with all due respect, your description of the law, and its history, is basically inaccurate. The RFRA laws have been used, not as licenses to discriminate, in any meaningful way. Almost all of the cases involved that have reached the courts have involved, you know, sheiks carrying daggers onto plane flights and people who want to -- Muslims who don't want to cut their beards in prison and so on.

What we have at the moment, is a particular debate, about in jurisdictions, where same sex marriage or same-sex civil ceremonies are legal, whether or not people involved in the wedding industry, basically, wedding vendors, florist, bakers and so on, not whether they should be allowed to discriminate, but whether, in cases where they don't want to participate in a wedding, should they be fined, for non participation, with or without a day in court?

And all that the RFRA law would potentially do, in this circumstance, is give them a day in court. It doesn't even say anything remotely about how the judge would ultimately decide, and frankly the history of these rulings suggest that probably the florists and the bakers and the vendors, would ultimately lose. So all it's doing is giving them day in court. And on the issue of for-profit corporations and churches, the issues here doesn't involve churches at all. The first amendment issues clearly apply to churches. There's no debate about whether or not churches should be required to perform same-sex ceremonies. The question is about private parties. Most court rulings --

BERMAN: Ross.

BOLDUAN: Ross, give us a second. We're going to have to cut you off. Governor -

BERMAN: Governor Mike Pence, Governor Mike Pence here about to make an address and potentially answer questions on the controversy swirling around his state that has really become a national discussion. Let's listen.

GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: Thank you all for coming.

It's been a tough week here in the Hoosier State, but we're going to move forward, because I -- as governor, I have the great privilege of serving the greatest people on Earth, the people of Indiana.

Let me say, first and foremost, I was proud to sign the Religious Freedom Restoration Act last week.

I believe religious liberty -- as President Clinton said when he signed the federal law in 1993, I believe religious liberty is our first freedom, and it is vital to millions of Americans who cherish faith, as I and my family do.

But it's also vital to the framework of freedom in our nation, and this legislation was designed to ensure the vitality of religious liberty in the Hoosier State. I believe Hoosiers are entitled to the same protections that have been in place in our federal courts for the last 20-plus years and is the law in 30 other states.

But clearly, clearly, there's been misunderstanding and confusion and mischaracterization of this law, and I come before you today to say how we're going to address that.

We've been working over the last several days literally around the clock and talking with people across the State of Indiana, talking to business leaders and talking to organizations around the country who have spent time in Indiana, enjoy the hospitality of the people of Indiana, and we've been listening.

But let me say, first and foremost, as I've said to each one of them, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was about religious liberty, not about discrimination.

As I said last week, had this law been about legalizing discrimination, I would've vetoed it. This law does not give anyone a license to discriminate. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act in Indiana does not give anyone the right to deny services to anyone in this state. It is simply a balancing test used by our federal courts and jurisdictions across the country for more than two decades.

Let me say, on the -- the subject of the bill itself, I don't believe for a minute that it was the intention of the General Assembly to create a license to discriminate or right to deny services to gays, lesbians or anyone else in this state. And it certainly wasn't my intent.

But I can appreciate that that's become the perception, not just here in Indiana but all across this country, and we need to confront that and confront it boldly in a way that respects the interests of all involved.

A personal reflection for a moment, if I can.

I abhor discrimination. The way I was raised was like most Hoosiers, with the Golden Rule, that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

And I believe in my heart of hearts that no one should be harassed or mistreated because of who they are, who they love, or what they believe. And I believe every Hoosier shares that conviction.

But as I said, we've -- we've got a perception problem here, because some people have a different view. And we intend to correct that.

After much reflection and in consultation with leadership of the General Assembly, I have come to the conclusion that it would be helpful to move legislation this week that makes it clear that this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone.

Let me say that again: I think it would be helpful, and I'd like to see on my desk before the end of this week, legislation that is added to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in Indiana that makes it clear that this law does not give businesses the right to deny services to anyone.

We want to make it clear that Indiana is open for business. We want to make it clear that Hoosier hospitality is not a slogan, it's our way of life. It's the reason why people come here from around the world, and they come back again and again and again, because Hoosiers are the kindest, most generous, most decent people in the world.

Let me say I believe this is a clarification, but it's also a fix. It's a fix of a bill that through mischaracterization and confusion has come to be greatly misunderstood, and I'm determined to address this this week and to move forward as a state.

And I know we will. Indiana has come under the harsh glare of criticism from around the country. And some of us get paid to be under that harsh glare and that criticism, so we don't complain about it. But the things that have been said about our state have been at times deeply offensive to me. And I will continue to use every effort to defend the good and decent people of Indiana.

I think it's important that we take this action this week. I have spoken to legislative leaders all the way through the last hour, and we're gonna be working to make that happen.

With that, I'll be happy to take questions.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Go ahead.

QUESTION: The house speaker from your own party criticized how you answered the question this weekend, so I'd like to ask you again, under this law, is it legal for a florist to deny services to a same- sex couple, citing her religious beliefs.

PENCE: This law does not give anyone a license to deny services to gay and lesbian couples.

And, look, I could have handled that better this weekend. But I -- going into that interview this weekend, I was just determined to set the record straight about what this law really is.

I am very pleased that the reporting about the Religious Freedom Restoration Act has significantly improved over the last several days. I think there is a growing public understanding that Indiana has passed a law here that mirrors the federal law that President Clinton signed and it mirrors the laws and statutes of some 30 states. I'm grateful for that.

But on Sunday my intention was to set that record straight, but I want to be clear on that point. And thank you for the opportunity.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Go ahead.

QUESTION: Do you regret having signed this bill?

PENCE: Absolutely not.

Religious liberty is vitally important in the life of our nation, and to ensure that Hoosiers have the same level of scrutiny when they believe their religious liberty is intruded upon in our state courts that they already have in our federal courts, and that 30 other states have already had for some time, was simply the right thing to do. It's that important. And I was pleased to have signed it and I stand by the law.

QUESTION: (inaudible) opposed to giving protected status (inaudible)?

PENCE: Jim, I've never supported that. And I want to be clear. I...

It's not on my agenda, but I think it's a completely separate question.

I mean, we are talking about the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which is about restoring the highest level of scrutiny in our state courts when matters of government action intrude upon the religious liberty of Hoosiers.

That's where I want to stay focused. But I do believe that moving legislation this week that would make it clear this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone would be appropriate.

QUESTION: What would the legislation say?

PENCE: That's still under discussion and consideration.

QUESTION: Governor?

PENCE: But that's the direction.

Yes, please?

QUESTION: Governor, are you expecting a type of a backlash (inaudible)?

PENCE: Was I expecting this kind of backlash?

Heavens, no. To be candid with you, you know, when I first heard about the legislation, I heard that it was already federal law more than 20 years, heard that it was the law through statute and court decisions in 30 jurisdictions, and I -- in the wake of last year's Supreme Court case, the Hobby Lobby case, I just thought it was an appropriate addition to Indiana statutes.

It moved through the legislative process, with good debate but not a considerable amount of controversy. And so candidly, when this erupted last week, even though I'd made my position clear weeks ago that I would sign the bill, without much discussion, I was taken aback. I -- and I have to tell you that the gross mischaracterizations about this bill early on and some of the reckless reporting by some in the media about what this bill was all about was deeply disappointing to me and to millions of Hoosiers.

But we're making progress on that. We're -- I think it's -- we are turning back. I am grateful for the expressions of support that are being given from around the country, including many in the media that are articulating what this is all about. And we'll continue to move forward on that.

QUESTION: (inaudible).

A lot of concerns in a lot of municipalities (inaudible) Indiana is the exemption of (inaudible) human rights (inaudible). So just to make it clear, (inaudible) defense in the cases of (inaudible), are you (inaudible) to making sure that line (inaudible) specific in those -- in whatever (inaudible) local human rights (inaudible) are (inaudible)?

PENCE: Let me say the smear here against this bill is that it created a license to discriminate or a license to deny services. And that's just completely false and baseless.

Professor Conkle (ph), who I quoted in my editorial this morning in "The Wall Street Journal," said it well. This is not a license -- there's no license to discriminate. And so I think the -- I think the proper legislative remedy is to focus on the perception that has been created by the mischaracterization that -- and to make it clear that this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone.

QUESTION: Governor, (inaudible)...

PENCE: Yes, please.

QUESTION: (inaudible). Speaking of the backlash, (inaudible) talking about those from 1993, those (inaudible) in the late '90s or the 2000s, whole (inaudible) tremendously nationally and in Indiana.

Do you think (inaudible)?

PENCE: I would leave it -- I think the -- you mean the public -- the public reaction?

QUESTION: Right.

PENCE: I think it's explained by the fact that this was grossly mischaracterized by advocates who oppose the bill and also by, frankly, some very sloppy reporting for the first several days. So I really do believe that.

I mean, look, if I read some of the stuff about this bill, I would've had the same concern that millions of Hoosiers have had and people across the country have had. It just isn't so.

I mean, when President Clinton signed this bill in 1993, the American Civil Liberties Union said then that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was the most important legislation considered by Congress since the First Amendment was approved. OK?

When then State Senator Barack Obama voted for this bill in Illinois, it was with broad and bipartisan support.

One of the great pieces of -- of the legislative history of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is that it's been a way of bringing people together, consensus. This has been broadly supported on a bipartisan basis.

So I -- I would suggest to you that what explains the -- the concerns that have been expressed across our state and across this nation is the mischaracterization. And in a very real sense, that's why I think we need to focus specifically on this perception that this creates some license to discriminate, and that's what I'm calling on the legislature to do.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

PENCE: I -- I think that the language being worked out. OK?

What I want to make sure is that it is clear to Hoosiers, which are the people that I serve, and frankly, clear to anyone that would come to visit our state that there is, in this legislation, no license to discriminate, no right to deny services. And I think we can -- I think we can develop that language.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) issued an e-mail that his supporters are saying that (OFF-MIKE). PENCE: Look, this -- this law does not give anyone a license to discriminate. This law that I signed last week does not give anyone the right to deny services.

The language that I'm talking about adding, I believe would be consistent with what the general assembly intended and certainly what I intended in this case.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Back there. Back there.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

PENCE: I'm -- I'm calling on the general assembly to send me a bill that focuses on the issue here, that focuses on, frankly, the smear that's been leveled against this law and against the people of Indiana, and that is that somehow, through our legislative process, we enacted legislation that created a license to discriminate.

That -- that is -- that is so offensive to me as a Hoosier, and I know it's offensive -- and I know it's offensive to people across the State of Indiana that we have to correct that, first, just because it's not true. QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

PENCE: And secondly, we have to correct that perception because it has to do with the perception of our -- our state and our businesses.

Eric?

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

PENCE: I just think we need to make it very clear, irrespective of whether those ordinances exist in a community or not, that this law gives businesses a right to deny services to anyone. OK? And -- and -- and that's what I have to say about that.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Go.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

PENCE: The intent of the law...

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

PENCE: Well, the intent of the law when President Clinton signed it, the intent of the law when I signed it, was to give the courts in our state the highest level of scrutiny in cases where people feel that their religious liberty is being infringed upon by government action.

QUESTION: Governor (inaudible).

PENCE: I'm sorry, let's go here.

QUESTION: You talked about the perceptions out there, the smear. How does Indiana, the state of Indiana get its good name back?

PENCE: Well, first, the state of Indiana has a good name. This law has been smeared.

But, look, we're gonna mark our 200th anniversary next year. And the name and reputation of the people of Indiana is strong and secure.

But the reputation of this law and the intentions of our legislature have been called into question. And I believe we need to deal with it, and I believe we need to deal with it this week, and we will. We will fix this and we will move forward.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: That's what -- that's what -- that's what Hoosiers -- that's what Hoosiers do.

QUESTION: Can the mayor, Thomas (inaudible) because he's embarrassed to stage (inaudible). What are your thoughts about that?

PENCE: No comment.

Tom?

QUESTION: What exactly do you want to see in this (inaudible) for a clarification? What are you looking for?

PENCE: Well, I want to make it clear in the RFRA law that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone, that this is about -- and I've said before to people, you know, and I want to stipulate the coverage on this has gotten better and more fair, OK? But early on there was some really reckless and irresponsible reporting about this.

But, I just would submit to you that it's important that we address the principal allegation here with legislation in this law that makes it clear that it does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Maureen?

QUESTION: (inaudible) Can you cite an article, can you cite a report that (inaudible)?

PENCE: Maureen, I wasn't talking about you.

QUESTION: OK. Thank you.

PENCE: And, frankly, can I just -- can I just say this? I don't want to let the Indiana press off the hook here, but I will anyway, I think the Indiana press has had this right from early on, but that some of the national reporting on this has been ridiculous.

QUESTION: Could you (inaudible) cite a specific story?

PENCE: I -- I encourage you to do a quick Google search on license to discriminate business.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: You'll find all of it.

QUESTION: When you state such similar laws...

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Yes, sir?

QUESTION: (inaudible) economic quality (ph). You had 90 CEOs just yesterday (inaudible)?

PENCE: Well, I've been on the phone, talking to business leaders, our team's been talking to business leaders. I've been reaching out to the leaders of associations and corporations around the country, just setting the record straight about what this law actually does and what our intention is in passing it, and our determination to correct the perception that's taken hold.

QUESTION: Governor, you said in your press conference last week that this was a long time coming; the federal bill was signed into law in 1983. Why did Indiana act now?

PENCE: Yeah, it's a good question.

QUESTION: (inaudible)

PENCE: Well, I think the more relevant event was the Hobby Lobby case by the Supreme Court which is a case in point of the value of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. It really is.

The Obamacare was passed into law. It included mandates on health care coverage for businesses. And Hobby Lobby, and I also might add the University of Notre Dame, among others, filed federal lawsuits to challenge Obamacare under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.