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Co-Pilot's Eye Problems; Locking the Cockpit; Pilot and Co- Pilots; Iran Talks. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 30, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:10:] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me on this Monday.

We have more of CNN's special live coverage of the downing of flight 9525. And now we have it. Confirmation today that Germanwings co- pilot, Andreas Lubitz, had been treated for suicidal tendencies. According to this German prosecutor, just revealing this treatment took place before Lubitz got his pilot license, so that was a couple of years ago, long before he crashed an Airbus A320 into the French Alps killing himself and all 149 people on board.

And while a French newspaper is reporting that he once got injections of anti-psychotic medicine, let me be clear, this is a claim CNN cannot confirm. This is on the French newspaper. The prosecutor says there was no recent evidence of physical illness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPH KUMPA, DUSSELDORF, GERMANY PUBLIC PROSECUTOR: We don't have any documentation that says that regarding his sight, any problems that he might have had or might have assumed to have, there isn't any documentation that says that this is caused by an organic illness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But we have just heard from sources close to the investigation that his vision problems were psychosomatic, in other words, caused by mental stress, not by some sort of physical condition.

On top of this revelation, something very rare, a leak. The German newspaper "Bild" publishing a chilling transcript of Flight 9525's cockpit voice recorder. And in this apparently it covers 10 or more minutes of sheer terror. You hear the captain who had mentioned before takeoff that he hadn't used the restroom back in Barcelona, realizes what's happening and he is heard apparently in this audio yelling, and I'm quoting him, "for God's sake, open the door."

On the audio, the passengers are heard screaming in the background. And then there is loud metallic bangs on the cockpit door. By this point in time, as you're listening, the plane has fallen 15,000 feet. Ninety seconds later, another cockpit alarm goes off. The pilot is screaming, open the damn door. And then sounds that are being interpreted as the plane's right wing actually scraping a mountaintop. More screams from passengers and then silence. CNN's Pamela Brown is our justice correspondent. She is there in

Germany for us right now.

And, Pamela, on top of everything I just went through, there is more coming out about this co-pilot from his ex-girlfriend, a former lover, and now this German prosecutor. Can you just piece it all together for me?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, some disturbing new details, Brooke, specifically about his medical condition that we've been hearing about. A source that I spoke with close to this investigation said that he was having some vision problems. He thought he was having some issues, so he went to the eye doctor. The eye doctor found that there was nothing wrong with his eyes and diagnosed him with a psychosomatic disorder, which is, as you said, it comes from mental stress. It's not an actual physical disorder.

And so we also have learned that he went to a neuropsychologist and he told that neuropsychologist that he was overburdened at work, that he was very stressed, but the source says that he never said anything about wanting to commit suicide or being aggressive toward others, despite what we heard, you know, from the prosecutor today that he was suicidal before he got his pilot's license. And then the prosecutor reiterated that more recently he never said anything about wanting to be suicidal. But a source I spoke to says clearly he was given what happened.

We know investigators found torn-up notes, doctor's notes, inside of his trash bin saying he was unfit to work. That's partly because of his diagnosis that he was psychosomatic. He tore those up, put them in the trash bin. Investigators say it's clear he was trying to hide his illness. What they didn't find, Brooke, is a confession of some sort. Something outlining that he wanted to crash a plane, like what authorities say he did, right into the Alps.

BALDWIN: Right. Huge question so far. Hadn't shared this information. Hadn't written about at motive, at least that investigators have found yet.

Pamela Brown, excellent reporting in Dusseldorf.

Obviously, a lot to talk about today, so let me just bring in Fred Tecce, former federal prosecutor in a number of fatal plane accidents and a commercial pilot himself.

So, Fred, welcome back.

And also I have with me Dr. Jacqueline Burnetti, an FAA designated senior aviation medical examiner.

So welcome to both of you.

And, Fred, I promise, I'm coming to you.

But, first, just on the medical vein. Dr. Burnetti, I have a lot for you. And to be crystal clear for everyone watching, you know, all these different bits and pieces of his medical history, it's painting a little bit more of a mosaic. But to your point before we even came on TV, we don't know exactly what was happening with him right before, you know, he took this plane down.

But first to begin with the vision problems. Can you explain to me what it means when a doctor says to you nothing physical is going on to explain vision issues, it's psychosomatic?

DR. JACQUELINE BURNETTI, FAA SENIOR AVIATION MEDICAL EXAMINER: All right. Well, speaking as a physician with 40 years' experience -

BALDWIN: Right.

BURNETTI: I'm not a psychiatrist but I know that a psychosomatic illness has to do with a dysfunction really in your nervous system. If you have mental stress, it could manifest itself simply as high blood pressure. But also if you get an imbalance in your sympathetic and parasympathetic nerves, it can manifest itself in changes in other organs. I find it particularly interesting that he had vision issues because vision is critical for flying.

[14:05:10] BALDWIN: Right.

BURNETTI: And, you know, it's almost as if he had an inner conflict. And, again, my own opinion.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BURNETTI: But that's what struck me is, did he have such an inner conflict or perhaps, you know, living with these issues and knowing there was a problem that it was manifested in a vision problem.

BALDWIN: Well, according to this European government official familiar with the investigation, he was saying work was too much for him, that it was stressful. So to your point, that could be it.

Number two, we've learned - again, CNN isn't - we can't confirm this. This is from this French newspaper and this is a couple of years ago before he got his pilot's license, that he had suicidal tendencies, that he was being treated for generalized anxiety disorder and severe depression and that he was getting anti-psychotic injections for that. What are those?

BURNETTI: This -- you're talking about major psychiatric drugs now that are used - you know, a psychosis is probably one of the worst things that can happen to you in the psychiatric realm. That's an actual disconnection with reality. And patients who are psychotic have delusions, they hear things, they may, in the reverse, just become extremely withdrawn. So those are very, you know, strong psychiatric medications. Certainly would not be allowable in the United States.

BALDWIN: You should not be flying a plane if you were getting these kinds of injections?

BURNETTI: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So, on the other hand, if someone was that sick, it would be apparent to the people around them. BALDWIN: Someone else.

BURNETTI: So that's not something you can usually hide.

BALDWIN: And, again, to be crystal clear, this was prior to getting his pilot's license.

BURNETTI: Prior - absolutely, prior to his license.

BALDWIN: So we don't know if he was getting these injections a week ago.

BURNETTI: So we can't - you know, there were questions, why didn't the doctor say something? He wasn't a pilot at the time.

BALDWIN: Right. That's exactly right.

BURNETTI: Yes.

BALDWIN: If you are exhibiting suicidal tendencies from, let's say, 2010, does that go away?

BURNETTI: You know, that's a -- that's a great question. And I suspect, depending -- first of all, in the United States, any history of suicidal ideation is an absolute denial for getting medical certification to fly. But I think that, under proper therapy, you know, these things could have been treated. It would be tragic if this young man was not taking his meds and, you know, was not getting the appropriate treatment for whatever the illness that he had.

BALDWIN: Right. Fred, to you. You know, should doctors be forced to - because we know this 27-year-old co-pilot, you know, went to this University of Dusseldorf, which, apparently, I think was a private doctor. It wasn't an aviation doctor. Therefore, there wasn't this mandate to report any kind of condition, the unfit for duty, you know, note that was found slashed in his waste basket in his apartment. Do you think laws or a policy should change? I understand a pilot's right to privacy, but at a point, should that doctor have had to have told the airline what the situation was?

FRED TECCE, COMMERCIAL PILOT: Well, you know, interesting, Brooke, that's really more (INAUDIBLE) in this country is more of a HIPAA question than it is an aviation question. You know, as a pilot, as a certified certificated pilot, we have an obligation to advise the FAA if we take any of these medications. I mean any kind of antidepressant, any ADD medications, all these things are grounds for surrendering your certificate. And as a commercial pilot, you have to get checked every year. And the fact is, if you make a false statement, if you deny using these types of medications, that's a crime.

And as a federal prosecutor, I've actually prosecuted people who made false statements on their application for the FAA medical examination.

BALDWIN: Have you really? TECCE: So it's - yes, I have. And it's a serious, serious violation. And the Department of Transportation, office of the inspector general and I took it very seriously. And I can tell you right now, moving forward in this country, you're going to see a lot more prosecutors take it seriously.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you, just from a pilot perspective as well, the like of this transcript, hearing, you know, what specifically this captain was saying and hearing the banging on the door, I immediately started thinking of the families and perhaps how this could be disrespectful to them and their loved ones. You know, the word I keep hearing is breach. This really was a breach.

TECCE: It was, but, you know, that's why, in our country, we have this policy that the actual recordings themselves are never released and the transcript - and I see no purpose to have released this for the families. I mean all this does is have to up the anguish that they're going through to know that their loved ones, particularly the family of the pilot, who I understand had two young children, to have to hear that this is what their loved ones experienced at the very end. As a pilot and as a person, I can't think of something more horrific.

BALDWIN: Jacqueline and Fred, let me just keep you around, if I may. We need to take a quick break.

Next, we'll take you inside a cockpit simulator, show you how this co- pilot managed to keep the pilot, keep the captain from getting back in.

Plus, a woman claiming to be the co-pilot's ex-girlfriend is now speaking out, revealing the chilling words he apparently shared with her.

[14:10:06] And developing right now, two men disguised as women, wearing wigs, breached the NSA headquarters today. We will tell you what happened next. Stay right here. This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

A helpless captain in a plane full of passengers who could not do a thing to stop the downing of this Germanwings Flight 9525. This leaked summary of the black box transcript reveals the pilot was indeed locked out of this cockpit after going back to the restroom. According to this German newspaper that published it over the weekend, the pilot pleaded with the co-pilot, banging on the door, let me back in. He could be heard screaming, for God's sake, open the door.

So, how easy or difficult is it for a pilot to get locked out. Here's my colleague, CNN's Kyung Lah, with an explainer.

[14:15:02] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The switch is surprisingly simple and exists in the cockpit of every single commercial plane that's flying around the world.

LAH (voice-over): He cannot imagine why a pilot would do this, but Bugs Forsyth knows how. A retired military and commercial pilot, Forsyth says he's flown thousands of hours in the A-320 cockpit, one of the safest high-tech passenger jets used around the world.

MAJ. GEN. H.H. "BUGS" FORSYTH, RETIRED MILITARY AND COMMERCIAL PILOT: Normal, lock and unlock.

LAH: He, like all pilots, has used the switch hundreds of times.

FORSYTH: The unlock you have to pull up and hold it. A light comes on and says the door is open. But if I release it, it goes back to normal position.

LAH (on camera): Norm means that it's locked?

FORSYTH: The norm is locked, that's correct.

LAH (voice-over): According to an Airbus operations video, there's a key pad entry on the outside that allows entry if you know the code. But if the person inside the cockpit switches it to lock, the keypad won't work for five minutes. And there's another override that goes beyond five minutes.

FORSYTH: I can also override the key pad and hold it in the locked position. And now he cannot use the key pad or enter the door at all. It is locked.

LAH (on camera): No one can get in?

FORSYTH: No one can get in.

LAH: So to keep your co-pilot out, what do you have to do?

FORSYTH: To keep him out - if he knew the keyboard pad number to get in, I just hold the lock. He cannot get in.

LAH: So can you manually fly this and hold the lock button?

FORSYTH: Oh, yes, easy.

LAH: But then that's a very purposeful act?

FORSYTH: Very much so. Very much so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pull up.

LAH (voice-over): Again and again we fly through the scenarios in auto pilot and manual. Both managed to crash the plane and both had to be deliberately programmed or flown into the ground.

LAH (on camera): What does that suggest to you as far as his determination?

FORSYTH: That he was very determined. Yes, that was his goal and he had a mission or a goal to kill himself and everybody on board. We deal with terrorists and people that aren't supposed to be in the cockpit. This person's supposed to be in the cockpit. That's what's scary.

LAH: So we now know how, the mechanics of it. But the question of why is what is so hard to understand.

Kyung Lah, CNN, Las Vegas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: All right, Kyung, thank you very much.

And in the wake of what happened on this Germanwings aircraft, it makes you wonder how well do pilots know one another before they enter a cockpit?

Back with me, Fred Tecce, a commercial pilot, former federal prosecutor who's investigated a number of fatal jet crashes. Also back with me, Dr. Jacqueline Burnetti, an FAA designated senior aviation medical examiner and also a pilot herself. So, welcome back to both of you.

TECCE: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: And, Fred, let me - let me begin with you. With regard to this particular captain and co-pilot on this Germanwings plane, I don't know how much they flew together, I just know that they flew the leg prior to what would have been the Barcelona/Dusseldorf leg. And my question to you would be, as a pilot, do you think you should have more of a working knowledge. I think of, you know, police officers, you have partners all the time, you know your tendencies, you know behaviors. It - would that even be plausible for captains and co- pilots?

TECCE: Well, I'm not sure how plausible. I mean some of these airlines have 15, 000, 18,000, 20,000 pilots and you - and, unfortunately, you rarely know who you're going to meet up with when you get into the cockpit.

I can tell you right now, as a pilot, I don't care who's in the right seat. The seat that I'm sitting in is not going to any crash site. So, you know, that - and I guarantee you that that's the mindset of many, many pilots. And we have every right to rely upon the system. I mean this guys was - was suicidal. I get that. But as - the former federal prosecutor in me really wants to label the guy as kind of a mass killer. And he killed 149 people. And he was adamant. He obviously had a plan to do this.

And so to answer your original question, you get to know them on a trip and my friends who are airline pilots will tell you that when they go to bid (ph) trips, particularly as you get up in seniority, you may recognize names on the list but you don't -- it's not like you fly with the same person day in and day out.

BALDWIN: And you're totally fine with that? TECCE: Well, I couldn't say yes in light of what happened (INAUDIBLE)

-

BALDWIN: I know this is such a rarity, Fred. I'm not trying to push it, but - but just asking.

TECCE: Right. Right. But the answer is, yes, I am totally fine with that.

BALDWIN: OK.

TECCE: And every time you or I or anybody else gets on a commercial airliner, we put our lives on the line.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. And to that point, you know, I've actually heard from a number of colleagues here at CNN. And, Jacqueline, let me just put this to you, who have been on planes just over the past week and in the wake of what happened with this French Alps crash, you know, one colleague was telling me the pilot here in the U.S. got on the loud speaker and said, hey, my name is, you know, Sam Smith, this is, you know, co-pilot, you know, J.D. and we just want to let - reassure you, we're thrilled to be, happy to be, you know, piloting this plane. We all want to be safe. I mean the fact that these, you know - who probably have been flying for years and years feel the need to reassure their passengers, what does that tell you?

BURNETTI: Well, I think it speaks to the professionalism of the American pilots. And, you know, similar thing I think happened after 9/11. And, you know, these men loved to fly.

[14:20:08] BALDWIN: And women, as you well know.

BURNETTI: And women. Yes, I should say that. Men and women love to fly. That's where they want to be. They want to be in that cockpit. And they take this responsibility seriously. I think that we had an outlier here and that people should feel comfortable with flying and have confidence in the American pilots.

BALDWIN: You were also making a point to me earlier that the issue is, and I know there's a lot of mandated retirements, what, at age 65 -

BURNETTI: Right. That's correct.

BALDWIN: Which means a lot of younger - crop of younger pilots are coming through. This pilot was 27 years of age.

BURNETTI: Well, right, Brooke. And what we mentioned was that, you know, back in the day, the glory days of flight, most of the pilots were -

BALDWIN: Military.

BURNETTI: Coming out of the military. So with that came the military discipline. And that -- that's not happening anymore. Although there are some pilots who have had military experience, a lot of these young pilots, especially in maybe the regional airlines, are coming out of flight schools that - and don't have that same discipline as maybe the military pilots (INAUDIBLE). Now, I don't want to - I don't want to over speak that, but -

TECCE: Well -

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Fred. I was just curious your take on that and we've got to wrap.

TECCE: Yes. Well, let me tell you, first of all, it's become so hard to become a pilot in the - up through general aviation ranks. It's a very difficult job (INAUDIBLE) with the regionals. You've got to really be dedicated and really want to do it. Remember, Lufthansa had avinicio (ph) training. This guy started and had 600 hours to the right seat of a commercial airliner, which is - which is a second. I mean to come up through the general aviation ranks, we still have a lot of our pilots come up from the military. It's a long, grueling, arduous, difficult task and you've got to really, really want to do it for not a lot of money. And that's why people do it, because they love to fly.

BALDWIN: Fred Tecce -

BURNETTI: Right. Right, and that's what they want. And, again, they get underpaid, but they want to be in the cockpit. They love what they are doing.

BALDWIN: They want it that badly.

BURNETTI: Right.

BALDWIN: And for Lufthansa training, nonetheless.

Fred Tecce and Dr. Jacqueline Burnetti, thank you both very much.

BURNETTI: Yes.

TECCE: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, time is running out for a deal with Iran over its nuclear program. All of this with, you know, much going on in the Middle East. Moments ago, we know that U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry actually gave CNN updates. We'll have that for you.

Also, one person is dead, another wounded, after two men dressed as women ran through this gate here at the NSA headquarters earlier this morning and were shot by police. What they had in their car, that's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:40] BALDWIN: Tension and high drama hang over the U.S./Iran nuclear talks. And as we head toward that deadline, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry told our correspondent, Elise Labott, moments ago that talks will continue into the night. His words, quote, "everyone knows the meaning of tomorrow." Sticking points here, let's talk about the sticking points, include

Iran's research limits in the final years of the deal and how quickly U.N. sanctions might be lifted. As diplomats are haggling now, and will do so into the night, the U.S. and Iran are at odds across the Middle East. In Yemen, we've been reporting on this, the U.S. supports the coalition led by Saudi Arabia that's striking rebel fighters backed by Iran. In Iraq, the U.S. is bombing ISIS fighters and propping up the Iraqi government. But near Tikrit, the Iraqis are getting help from Iran, which also opposes ISIS. And, thirdly, Syria. In Syria, the U.S. supports anti-government rebels who are fighting both ISIS and the Syrian president, Bashar al Assad, whose grip on power relies on help he's getting from Iran.

So, let me bring in Joseph Cirincione, president of Ploughshares Fund, a global security foundation. He is also author of "Nuclear Nightmare: Securing the World Before it is Too Late."

Sir, welcome.

JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, PRESIDENT, PLOUGHSHARES FUND: A pleasure to be here, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me also include this - make this note. You were also a member of Secretary of State John Kerry's International Security Advisory Board, which has held briefings on this very deal. You are not here with me, though, speaking on behalf of ISAB.

CIRINCIONE: That's right.

BALDWIN: So let's begin with - let me just begin with this. I talked to Fareed Zakaria about all of these complications at the end of last week, talking about how the U.S. is negotiating on this nuke deal with Iran while we are - the U.S. is, you know, basically fighting a proxy war with Iran in the Middle East. And he actually compared - he compared it with the cold war. I found this fascinating. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, CNN'S "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": When we were trying to do arms deals with the Soviet Union, the arms control agreements, we - they were simultaneously funding revolutionary groups, anti- American movements in Latin America, in central America.

BALDWIN: How is that not a total conflict of interest?

ZAKARIA: Well - but the point is, we're not - we're not pretending we're, you know, we're to get married to Iran.

BALDWIN: OK.

ZAKARIA: We're negotiating with an adversary to put limits on their nuclear program.

BALDWIN: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, Joe, so that said, we are 24 hours from this deadline.

CIRINCIONE: Yes.

BALDWIN: You heard Secretary Kerry saying they're going to work on this into the evening. What is the number one sticking point of this deal?

CIRINCIONE: Yes. Well, you know, I talked with Fareed yesterday on his show in New York -

BALDWIN: OK.

CIRINCIONE: About - about this. We have two sticking points. The number one, I would say, is the sanctions. We want to take our time to release these sanctions. If Iran complies with the deal, we'll release them slowly. If they cheat, we'll snap them back. Iran, of course, wants them lifted all at once. So this is what we're negotiating, the pace and sequencing, as well as some of these other complicated issues that you mentioned before.

BALDWIN: OK. So it's the sanctions. But isn't it also - I was reading this morning another sticking point is determining what to do with the stockpiles, the uranium stockpiles.

CIRINCIONE: Yes. Yes, there were - there were two issues -

BALDWIN: Explain that.

CIRINCIONE: There were two issues that have emerged at the end here, and one is the research and development that you mentioned. Iran's centrifuges are very old technology, 1970s, that they got from Pakistan. We don't want them, while they're frozen in this program, to be doing research and putting brand-new, much more efficient centrifuges in. Iran has agreed to that in principle, but how exactly do you do it? That's what we're negotiating.

[14:30:04] Plus, once you shrink the number of centrifuges, and it looks like we're going to get cuts of two-thirds of their installed - their centrifuges are going to be - be ripped out.