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Sources: Co-Pilot Passed Recent Medical Exam; Arab Leaders Meet As Yemen Violence Grows; Friend: Co-Pilot Flew A Glider Over Crash Site; Teams Continue Slow Body Recovering in Alps; Medical Problem in Cockpit Just One Theory of Germanwings Crash; Controversy over Indiana Religious Freedom Law. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired March 28, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:15] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Five o'clock Eastern. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

Our top story continues to be this tragic, tragic plane crash. The man who killed himself and 149 other people on that Germanwings airliner was physically fit, according to authorities. But officials are more concerned with who knew the co-pilot's mental state. What was he thinking when he was flying that plane, a German aviation official telling CNN today that Andreas Lubitz passed his annual medical exam less than a year ago. That would presumably include a vision test. A reporter in the "New York Times" quotes officials who say that Lubitz was being treated for some sort of vision problem that could potentially have impacted his flying career. That is in addition to other reports that Lubitz was potentially hiding some sort of other illness from his bosses at the airline.

Officials are also taking and talking to the co-pilot's friends, co- workers, also his former girlfriend. That former girlfriend telling a German newspaper that Andreas Lubitz would often dream that his plane was going down. CNN cannot independently confirm that report. At the same time, it is the desperate search for the still missing flight data recorder in the French Alps and the heart breaking recovery of those remains of all 150 people who died on that mountainside.

With more on this, CNN's Nic Robertson joins me now from an area, the staging area really right near the crash site where those rescue workers are working those recovery efforts around the clock. Thank you for being with us, Nic. In terms of how the search is going right now, what are they facing?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're being told it's going well. Today the weather was favorable for the helicopter pilots. They were able to get 40 recovery workers on the ground. That was the number, that was what they were targeting for today. There are about 400 officials that are working on the effort to recover the bodies, to identify the bodies, to the investigation side, the air accident investigation, the criminal investigation. You know, there were 13 investigators from France -- rather from Germany and from Spain here as well working with the French teams. There are 24 people that are dedicated to the forensic analysis of the bodies. They're doing DNA tests, biometric tests, fingerprint analysis. All these sorts of things. But while they're recovering the bodies, one of the most important things is to find that flight data recorder. We talked to one of the helicopter pilots today. And he gave us an assessment that makes you realize just how hard it is to do all of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID HARAULT, SEARCH AND RESCUE HELICOPTER PILOT: Very difficult condition. We are in a closed area, very very closed from the mountains. It's a very short place. So it's quite difficult for us.

ROBERTSON: Dangerous?

HARAULT: We can't say dangerous because we have to stay focused on what we do. But it's a lot of mental condition and a lot of concentration. I don't want to focus on the possible victims I see on the floor. So I'm proud because I know I will bring back bodies to the family. And I think it's very important. It's my duty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, that pilot, he's actually from this region here. He's a specialist mountaineering pilot. And those sentiments he had doing his duty and this real sense of trying to help the families, you know, we hear that from the community here. Everyone here in these mountain villages really want to help those families who are arriving here and they're still arriving each day coming to try and get understanding and to get close to where their loved ones were lost -- Poppy.

HARLOW: I can't imagine the pain for all of those families trying to get whatever remains they can. Thank you very much, Nic. We appreciate it.

You are asking us a lot of questions on Twitter, our viewers. So, I want to bring our panel in to talk about them. Please continue to tweet us @Germanwingsqs right there on Twitter.

But let's bring in CNN aviation analyst Richard Quest. Also Jeff Gardere, clinical and forensic psychologist joins us now. Les Abend, the 777 captain and a CNN aviation analyst. Also joining us in Washington, Tom Fuentes, former FBI assistant director.

Let's get straight to the first question. To you Richard Quest, what precautionary measures if any can the international aviation community take to prevent this in the future?

[17:05:02] RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: They're going to be looking at it. The organizations involved are really twofold. They are IATA which the organization for airlines and ITEO which is the international body of the U.N. which looks after this. Both of them are going to be very, very hesitant to do much without working through the ramifications. They're going to say all right, you've got two people in the cockpit now. That's going to become pretty universal. But it's difficult to know what more you do. And you shouldn't until you've looked really at it very closely.

HARLOW: After MH 370 disappeared you covered this extensively.

QUEST: Right.

HARLOW: A lot of people were and continue to be up in arms. They feel like everyone should know where a plane is at all times. And that hasn't changed any.

QUEST: Oh no, it has.

HARLOW: Not for all airlines.

QUEST: Oh, no. ITEO, no, no, there was a study, a report, and there now is a recommendation that's moving forward. The object of the exercise is not to tell the airlines you must do it this way. You tell them, you must know where your planes are within 15 minutes. And that's what they've done.

HARLOW: So do you think that there will be changes made after this?

QUEST: Yes, yes, I do.

HARLOW: But it's going to take a little bit more thought as to work out what that change is.

QUEST: Sure.

HARLOW: But yes, I do.

QUEST: Okay. Jeff Gardere, to you, as a clinical psychologist this viewer asked how often do U.S. airline companies test for mental health issues in pilots? Well, we know they don't have to.

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, they don't have to.

HARLOW: And I think the question really is, should they?

GARDERE: Well, they do that initially that we know. And they do that with police officers and so on. What happens on the annual exams? And what we see in most of these situations, they test them for physical issues to make sure that they're ready to fly. If a psychological issue does come up that is very obvious, then of course they'll document that and work with the individual. But what we're seeing is people are afraid to say, yes, I'm having a severe psychological problem or depression because then they think that they'll be branded and may not be able to fly. So they've got to get psychologists in or psychiatrists as part of these annual exams. And I think that's what's going to happen.

HARLOW: Les, can you jump in on that, as a pilot who goes through these physical examinations and stress tests to see how well you respond in stress cases, do you wish that you had to also undergo psychological examinations every six months?

LES ABEND, BOEING 777 CAPTAIN: Well, I mean, I did it and the doctor's correct. But I did it during my initial application process. There's going to be a lot of push back from my peers, especially if I have to do it every six months. But let me add to what the doctor's saying with reference to evaluations. It's not that it's an evaluation. But we go down anywhere from depending upon the airline six to nine months here in the states we go to a current training. It's not only a process of looking at our performance in the simulator, going through ground school, we also get advised on programs that are available with the union and the company that we can say hey, listen, we see somebody that might be having some issues behind the scenes. Granted it doesn't cover everything.

HARLOW: It's not fail safe.

ABEND: It's not fail safe and nothing really is. But I want to reassure the public that there are mechanisms in place and we still are looking at a terrible terrible anomaly.

HARLOW: And a rarity. Richard Quest, quickly to you then I got to get to Tom Fuentes.

QUEST: I just want to ask you very quickly. Forget the medical examiner. Private psychologist, pilot goes to see a psychologist, a private psychologist about a problem. The psychologist knows the man is a pilot. Does that -- should that psychologist, private one, have the duty to tell the airline if he's found his patient unfit?

GARDERE: In the United States, yes, you are mandated reporter. In Germany my understanding is the confidentiality laws still stick even if you think the person may be dangerous.

HARLOW: All right. Let me bring Tom Fuentes in here. From a law enforcement angle, Tom Fuentes, because now it is in the hands of the investigators and the FBI is assisting in anyway that it can from here in the United States. What are the most difficult questions that they are facing now?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think, Poppy, the main thing is that, you know, to be certain exactly what was going on in his mind to cause him to do this. And we don't ever know that we're going to know all the answers to that for sure. And in some of these cases, the motivation or the final motivation, often the person takes it to the grave. In this case unfortunately 150 people have gone to the grave. And, you know, that's just a difficult circumstance to ever know what led to this.

HARLOW: Tom Fuentes, thank you very much. Les, Jeff, Richard, thank you. Stand by. We're going to take a quick break. On the other side we're going to talk about some new information that we are getting from multiple media reports talking to friends of Andreas Lubitz, the copilot here, also the ex-girlfriend, some of them saying that he was obsessed with the Alps. More on that when we get back.

[17:10:00] Ahead of that, throughout the hour we're going to be taking a look at the victims who lost their lives onboard Flight 9525. Among them three Americans. They include 37-year-old Robert Oliver Calvo. Also a U.S. citizen who lived in Barcelona with his wife and his two children. His father now urging the other grieving families not to think about how their loved ones died but of all the wonderful moments that they had as a family together. Also on board, Yvonne and Emily Selke of Virginia. Friends say the two were on vacation, enjoying some quality mother-daughter time together. Yvonne a respected government contractor and consultant, Emily a music industry major, an honor student at Drexel University. Here's what one of her friends told our Anderson Cooper about her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY HOLMES, FRIEND OF SELKE FAMILY: I think what people need to know about them is that they were two -- not two Americans on the plane, not a mother and daughter on a plane, but to Yvonne and Emily, two amazing, loving people who were left behind friends and family who love and miss them a lot. And I think that's the thing that people need to know about them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: In an interview with the guardian, Emily's father described the two as being quote, "wonderful to a fault."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:14:29] HARLOW: Many new developments and revelations about the co-pilot of this flight who investigators believe deliberately piloted this plane and all 149 people on board with him right into the French Alps. Let's take it back to our panel to continue discussing it.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with me. We've just learned a friend of the co-pilot says that he was obsessed with this region of the Alps that they were flying over. Lubitz was a glider in his spare time. And he reportedly took several gliding trips over the crash site. You know, the significance of that is still really a big question, Richard Quest. But when you read that, that his friend who was gliding with him said he was obsessed with this region of the Alps, do you make anything of that or is that just a side point?

QUEST: He's supposed to have glided over there with his family. His family was supposed to have been, you know, familiar. I've seen both sides of this particular story. Some say that there's nothing to it. It's the Alps. A large mountain ranges in Europe. He works for Germanwings. He's crossed this mountain range on a daily basis.

HARLOW: Back and forth and back and forth.

QUEST: So to suggest that this was the moment. I mean, Tom Fuentes has maybe more. I can't say the total relevance.

HARLOW: Tom Fuentes, to you, do you think that investigators, I mean, you've been involved when you were with the FBI at looking at plane incidents. Do you think that investigators are going to make anything of a fact like that?

FUENTES: No. Because in this particular situation. If this guy was only suicidal and only had depression, he could have flown himself into the side of a mountain all by himself in a hang-glider or let loose. It's a very dangerous sport in the first place. He didn't have to take 149 men, women and babies with him.

HARLOW: Yes.

FUENTES: So we're talking about somebody that had severe anger problems. There were other things going on in his life. I'm sure we'll find out more about in the days ahead. And especially from the police. And I think the reason the prosecutors haven't said more is they're probably still waiting for more of his internet records to come in. You know, they have a subpoena process similar to what we have in the states. Waiting for phone records, waiting for more interviews of colleagues, friends, and neighbors, you know. So they want to have a fuller picture before they announce to the world what they really think was going on here. But he didn't just decide to end his own life. He wanted to murder 149 people beside himself and be famous. So there's more to the psychology of what was going on in his head than meets the eye.

HARLOW: Yes. Les, to you, what we know from some of this initial battle that has come in, apparently Lubitz reset the auto pilot to 100 feet over a mountain range. One of our viewers wrote this in. Why is the auto pilot allowed to be set to 100 feet? Why in any situation would the auto pilot ever be turned to below 1500 feet? Well, sometimes pilot do land, right with autopilot. But I think specifically over a mountain range?

ABEND: More specifically it wasn't the auto pilot so much that he said what we called the remote control panel which works in conjunction with the auto pilot. OK? So initially the auto pilot was set or remote control panel was set for an altitude of 38,000 feet from what we understand, and then like you said it was dialed down to 100 feet. We need that. I mean, it has to have all selections for us to be able to manipulate the airplane in all phases of flight, approach. Yes. I'm not totally familiar with an airbus A-320. But there's aspects of the airplane that are very similar to others. And it's part of the system. You can't take that away from a pilot. He knew that that ability was there. It depended upon the mode that he utilized to get down to that 100 feet. He could have done it with vertical speed. He actually could have actually done it -- he could have actually done it -- he could have hand flying the airplane. We don't know for sure whether the auto pilot was actually engaged. I have a feeling he may have been hand flying the airplane.

HARLOW: Richard?

QUEST: And also remember he set it to 100 feet. But the mountain was 600.

ABEND: Six thousand, was it not?

QUEST: No. I think -- well, yes, I do beg your pardon, yes. So the settings --

ABEND: It was a deliberate effort.

QUEST: There were 1001 different ways -- thank you, thank you -- in which he could have moved that plane. He could have just literally done the side stick and left it there.

HARLOW: Another question that a lot of people have been asking is, you know, if someone is deemed mentally unfit, for example there have been "New York Times" reports and other reports that he had a severe depressive about during his pilot training, that he took a break in 2009 and then was allowed back in. The chief executive of the company saying that he was perfectly fit to fly. If someone goes through that, Richard, should that -- and Les to you as well -- should they be allowed to pilot these planes?

[17:19:22] QUEST: Well, in this case, the interesting question is when he had his break in training, was the airline informed about it? I've seen some things overnight that suggest that Lufthansa itself might not have known about it because it might have been the training division of Lufthansa or the subcontracted company that does that. So did Lufthansa ever actually know about all of this?

HARLOW: Right. And that we don't know yet.

QUEST: No, we don't.

HARLOW: But Les, don't we run into a very difficult point where you do not want to make people -- pilots feel as though they cannot come forward with a problem to get help or they will lose their job? At the same time, you do not want them flying if they are not fit. Where is the line?

ABEND: And you make a very good point. It's a fine line. If we are always think that we're going to be under the gun and potentially lose our license or our medical for a period of time, you know, it's hard to get to that point. You know, if we have a medical problem, we may -- we're going to consult another doctor and see how serious that medical problem is. If it's serious enough then we're going to take ourselves off of flight status. And it may be serious enough that we have to report it to our companies. Richard and I were talking about that during the break. So indeed those kind of things -- those mechanisms are there. But you're right --

HARLOW: It's a big question right now.

ABEND: -- it's a fine line that you sometimes walk.

HARLOW: No question. Les, thank you, Richard, thank you. Tom Fuentes thank you as well. Gentlemen stay with us. We'll going to continue to talk about this through the hour. Coming up much more on the crash of Flight 9525 including a new statement from the father of co-pilot Andreas Lubitz. Also the United Nations, workers from the U.N. feeling that Yemen -- fleeing Yemen rather as Arab leaders meet to discuss the crisis, the chaos in Yemen. We're going to talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:24:58] HARLOW: The President of Yemen is in Egypt today pleading with his Arab league counterparts to help him try to regain control of Yemen. This as Arab leaders met to discuss the crisis, the majority of United Nations humanitarian workers who were left in Yemen have now evacuated that country. Meantime, Saudi Arabia continuing its air strikes in Yemen, bombarding the rebel forces that forced the President to flee.

Bob Baer joins me now. He's a former CIA operative and CNN's intelligence and security analyst. Bob looking at the situation in Yemen, earlier on the show we had a journalist from Yemen on the phone with us saying there's no one in power here. It's not clear who that the Houthi rebels are in power. We don't know who is empower, this is absolute chaos. And he also talked about how impoverished many in that country are that they do not have the resources to flee. Do you think that there is any chance that some stability will come in the near term to Yemen in terms of a stable government?

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Poppy, as of today, no. The Houthis are continuing to move on Aden, Yemen's second largest city. I would imagine they're going to take it in spite of the bombardment. You have, what's happening there is the country is fragmenting into pieces. You have the Shia, the Houthis, the Sunni fundamentalists there in Shabwa, you've got the tribes in Marib and on and on. So, this country is falling apart before our eyes. And this is why the Saudis are so concerned because they simply feel that chaos on their southern border will migrate across the border. Remember there's a million Yemenis living in Saudi Arabia at least. And Bin Laden was a Yemeni origin. So, this is really an existential threat to the gulf. And this is why they're trying to enlist the Egyptians. And Saudis don't like the Egyptians. But right now they'll take any allies they can get and they'll take any U.S. help they can get. But at the end of the day the chances of the gulf countries, the GCC, retaking so to speak Yemen and reinstituted Houthi, the legitimate president are close to zeal.

HARLOW: How important is the stability of Yemen to the region just strategically speaking, Bob?

BAER: Well, like I said, it's the weak underbelly of Saudi Arabia and the gulf. Our greatest fear and the greatest fear of the United States is that this chaos in the Middle East, five or six civil wars going on, will move into the gulf, which produces 60 percent of the world's reserves of oil. It would affect us. We would be faced with the decision, if that does happen and it's remote right now but still a possibility of actually instituting the Kissinger plan which would be to go in and seize the oil fields, simply to protect the world's economy. It sounds dire. But who would have predicted five years ago there would be five major civil wars in the Middle East?

HARLOW: Also the Saudis today really touting their air bombardment of Houthi strongholds within Yemen saying they've been very successful. Giving that, that aside, there's been some talk about whether Egypt might send ground forces in, do you believe from what we know to stabilize things in Yemen it's going to take more than air strikes?

BAER: Oh, absolutely it's not going to work. The Saudi Air Force is not all that bad, not as good as the American air force. Not nearly as good. They're not going to be able to shut down the Houthis entirely from the air. Egyptians are tied up in the Sinai. They've got a major problem with Libya. So I doubt they're going to be sending in their army. This is really symbolic support for Saudi Arabia. It's the Sunni countries all coming together saying we agree with you, Yemen is a threat to our security. And we stand by you. But what can they do? Not much.

HARLOW: Bob Baer, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

[17:28:49] Coming up, an update on the Germanwings crash investigation. Our Karl Penhaul takes you inside the terrain, the treacherous search terrain, that all of these search and recovery crews are dealing with around the clock. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:32:10] HARLOW: This just in to us here at CNN. News of a devastated father, a father that not only learned that his son died in the crash of flight 9525 but that his son was the one who deliberately without explanation, steered it right into the Alps. A French mayor describing 27-year-old Andreas Lubitz's father as a man who, quote, "is completely devastated, who carries the weight of all the responsibility of this tragedy." The mayor went on to say, that he is a man, this father, whose life is shattered. He says, "It hurt me to see him expressing his emotions as he lost a loved one, but also because his son may be the reason of this tragedy. So I respect this man, who despite himself, is at the center of a tragedy he did not ask for." More on that as we get it.

A Virginia man who lost his wife and his daughter in the Germanwings plane tragedy is now speaking out. Raymond Selke says, quote, "My wife and daughter, Yvonne and Emily Selke, were widely loved and respected by family, friends, colleagues and our community. They were deeply attuned to the needs of others and regularly engaged in volunteer service supporting needy individuals in the community at large. My son and I are incredibly proud of our girls and will miss them terribly."

That statement comes as teams high up in the Alps continue the slow and treacherous task of recovering the victims' bodies.

Here's Karl Penhaul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Swinging on a wire, they recover the remains. Hundreds of feet below, emergency crews cling to the mountainside, just so they don't fall. Investigators say the speed of the crash pulverized plane and passengers. The recovery operation, they say, is bit by bit, bag by bag.

You can just pick out the small red flags rescuers dig into the earth when they discover new fragments.

And that looks like a scorch mark.

The French prosecutor said the plane hit the mountain, bounced off and then disintegrated.

It's a tough hike through rugged mountains and steep value his.

(on camera): It's still a little while before dawn but we're going toward a trail head.

(voice-over): In order to understand why some rescues describe this as their biggest-ever challenge, we try to get closer to the crash zone.

(on camera): There was a little bit of frost this morning. Now the sun's coming down. Certainly no sign of snow just yet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

PENHAUL (voice-over): "Few people except shepherds live up here. Conditions are too inhospitable."

(on camera): Getting up here is literally hanging on to tree roots and grass. You can see why they are going to have to fly anything out of that crash site by helicopter.

(voice-over): The whir of rotor blades helps us pinpoint the site. From our vantage point high above, we see teams working with mountaineers to keep them safe. High winds make flying treacherous.

Saying farewell is never easy, but perhaps those grieving could find a little consolation amid these crags. The peace of the running water, peace of snow-capped peaks, peace to loved ones lost.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:35:44] HARLOW: Karl Penhaul, thank you very much for that report.

Let's talk more about these recovery efforts with our experts. Joining me here in New York again, CNN aviation correspondent, Richard Quest; and also Les Abend, a Boeing 777 captain and a CNN aviation analyst.

Thank you for both being here.

Les, when you see this as a pilot -- and you wrote a moving op-ed on CNN.com about this -- I just wonder how the rest of the piloting community and you are reacting to this, knowing, by all accounts from the authorities from the airline, that this co-pilot drove the plane right into the Alps. How do you grapple with that as a pilot?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: It hits me in the gut. We're all in shock. We discussed this on the way back, my co-pilot, which you met --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: As you were flying back from London? ABEND: Absolutely. We both discussed it. And we're just -- to us,

it's inconceivable. I mean, we made numerous trips back to the lavatory to grab a cup of coffee. Neither one of us would have thought for one moment -- and we've never flown together. Neither one of us would have thought for one moment that we would take the controls of the airplane and do this horrific crime that occurred. All I can say it's very shocking.

HARLOW: Richard?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You have to remember, with pilots, you're dealing with a body of men and women for whom this has been in many cases -- most cases I think -- it's been a lifelong ambition. Not only that, they have to be among the best of the best --

HARLOW: Yeah.

QUEST: -- to actually qualify to get to training, to merely be selected. And then you've got to literally work your way up through the airline. So it is -- the pilots I've spoken to in the last few days, the CEOs I've spoken to, the senior management in airlines, it is incomprehensible.

HARLOW: And that point and coupled with the rarity of something like this happening, Les, has some experts saying we should not be talking about this potentially psychological instability, depression, potentially, as the main or a big risk to airline passengers. We should really keep our eye on the ball in terms of counterterrorism efforts. Do you agree with that, Les?

ABEND: I do. And I think that's where the big threat is going to come. It absolutely will come that direction. We've been putting -- that's been our focus, really, where things have gone all these years. I don't see -- this is an awful, awful anomaly. Not saying that we shouldn't address the issue and educate the public, but as I mentioned in my op-ed piece, we've destroyed some of our credibility. I had a passenger get on that flight that wanted to know how I was doing with my family.

HARLOW: Really?

ABEND: Yes. And I mean, he didn't vocalize it directly to me. He vocalized it to one of my flight attendants. And she was offending by that. But he's verbalizing it. Other passengers may just be thinking it. That's what upsets us.

QUEST: Germanwings flight crews in Europe have been making their announcements. You've seen the stories. Some of them have been saying on the public address system, "Ladies and gentlemen, there will always be two of us in the cockpit." Some of them have been standing at the cockpit door when passengers have been embarking and disembarking so that passengers can put a face, not just a voice to them. One of them specifically said it's been a very difficult time for ourselves, the Germanwings family and for you, the passengers. Please, do not take this out on the flight crew. [17:39:24] HARLOW: Absolutely. Everyone, everyone just trying the

absolute best they can do under these circumstances.

Richard, Les, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

There are still so many questions about what could have happened inside that cockpit on that fateful day. Also the medical condition of the co-pilot, 27-year-old Andreas Lubitz. What exactly was it? What do we know and what don't we know? We're going to address that next.

But first, we continue to remember the victims of this flight, 9525. Marina Lopez Bellio was traveling with her 7-month-old baby, Julian. They were headed home to the U.K. after attending a funeral in Spain. Marina bought their airline ticket last minute. Her family says she just wanted to get home to her son as soon as possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Investigators are hoping that a second black box will confirm, without a doubt, what happened inside the cockpit of flight 9525.

One airline expert says he does not believe the crash had anything to do with the co-pilot having any sort of medical problem in the cockpit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I'm just wondering if there is a situation where he could have become incapacitated, ill, and sort of knocked that switch as it were to lock the door without intending to do so. Is that a possibility?

GEOFFREY THOMAS, EDITOR, AIRLINERATINGS.COM: I don't believe that's a possibility. I mean, extremely unlikely that his incapacitation caused him first of all to slump forward and to the side to knock his side stick, and at the same time his other hand went onto the control -- the side on the other side and disconnected the very button that would allow the other pilot to get back into the cockpit. It seems to be beyond the realms of mathematical possibility that those two actions could result.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:45:00] HARLOW: CNN aviation analyst, Les Abend, is back with me. Not only is he a CNN aviation analyst, he is a Boeing 777 pilot.

We have this picture of what it is like inside an A320 cockpit. What that airline expert was responding to were some who said, could he have fallen onto this switch that automatically locks the door that clearly locked the captain out? Could that have happened? This expert says no. Is that possible?

ABEND: It would have to be a heck of a fall and he'd probably have to have a stroke situation, something where he was incapacitated. HARLOW: No loud sound like that was caught on the cockpit voice

recorder?

ABEND: Not that we're aware of. But, yeah, it's back on the lower part of the center console -- the center pedestal, is what we call it. It's got a position of lock and open. And I don't see that happening. I'm not totally familiar with the Airbus with reference to the manual aspect of the door, but the door can be locked perhaps manually, also, so.

HARLOW: So the cockpit doors were made to be locked and shut at all times after 9/11. This was a safety precaution.

ABEND: Right.

HARLOW: Some look at this and say, we have to reassess because what was meant to keep people safe actually kept the good person out. It kept the captain out, who was banging on the door trying to get back in. Do you think that needs to be re-examined, that rule, or how people can override the system, a captain, for example, to get back in his cockpit?

ABEND: I think that's a Band-Aid situation. We're going the wrong direction. What we need to do is re-evaluate how we evaluate pilots psychologically, perhaps, emphasize to the public how this is being done so that we can regain their confidence, that we're not suffering from mental illness. Doing what the cockpit was designed to do means a whole system configuration redesign, really. I don't see it. We want to keep terrorists out of the cockpit. Let's make the procedure the same for all countries that we follow here in the states.

HARLOW: It sounds like you're saying perhaps we do need to have mental examinations for pilots.

ABEND: Well, I say it from the standpoint of let's -- it's not they want to be examined every six months psychologically. But let's look at the way we initially hire our pilots. Let's look at perhaps that medical examiner that understands our job, ask us pertinent questions. I can live with that. But changing the door configuration for an anomaly? I'm not in agreement with that.

HARLOW: Les, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Stay with me. We're going to continue to cover this of course throughout the evening.

But coming up, we have to talk about this other very big story. New fallout from Indiana's controversial new law just signed by the governor of Indiana this week. He says it in no way discriminates. These folks disagree.

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[17:51:48] HARLOW: That's people chanting "no hate in our state" as they march in Indianapolis today, protesting a new law, a new religious freedom law signed by the state's governor, some say disallows businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers, citing religious reasons.

Shasta Darlington joins me now.

Look, I spoke with the governor's office about it this week. They say that's not the case, this is not a discriminatory law, but this, protects religious freedoms and allows them to take it to court if a government body is involved. It's pretty confusing.

SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is pretty confusing. But we've talked to legal experts who say the problem with this particular law is the language is so broad that that isn't the case. It isn't just to be used when a government action is taken. But it could, indeed, be used in a dispute between two private parties. That's the real problem with this law. There are already on the books in 20 different states, but this particular law is just very broad.

We've seen businesses lashing out, boycotting this law and boycotting Indiana. The list is growing. We've got CEOs from Apple, Yelp, Salesforce.com. And today, Angie's List, based in Indianapolis, came out and said they'll cancel a planned expansion there because of this bill. They say, among other things, it could make it difficult to recruit the people they want to recruit.

HARLOW: What's interesting is the Republican mayor of Indianapolis split with his Republican governor on this, saying I'm not in favor of this, it is going to be economically detrimental to my city, a city where, by the way, the NCAA final four is about to take place.

DARLINGTON: Exactly. We've had a lot of backlash on that as well. The NCAA has come out with a statement saying they're opposed to this legislation, that they feel it could affect their players, it could affect their employees, and they will rethink hosting future events in Indiana.

The most recent is we've heard from former NBA star, Charles Barkley. Let me read what he said. It's pretty interesting. "Discrimination in any form is unacceptable to me. As long as anti-gay legislation exists in any state, I strongly believe big events such as the Final Four and Super Bowl should not be held in those state's cities." So pretty strong language.

And I think we could see more of this, which will likely have the effect that other states considering similar bill will think twice.

[17:54:08] HARLOW: Will the NCAA still hold the final four there? That is supposed to take place in a week's time. We'll see.

Shasta Darlington, thank you so much.

Quick break. We're back in a minute.

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HARLOW: Getting kids off the streets and into biking, that is the focus of this week's "CNN Hero."

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ALLIE TORGAN, CNN HERO: I've been riding since age 4. I will never forget my father when he let go of my seat and I was there on my own, and that was 70 years ago.

A lot of kids have never really left the city. To them, everything is concrete.

Is everybody excited?

(SHOUTING)

TORGAN: I just decided to take kids who've never had my kind of experience on these mountain bike rides.

OK, you guys. Let's hit the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was getting straight "F"s. I got expelled. On these long bike rides, I kind of feel like it clears my mind.

TORGAN: Looking good.

I've been doing this for almost 30 years. You bring them where there are no buildings. It is like, wow, I didn't know that this exists.

And then we have our Earn-a-Bike program where kid in the community come after school.

What's wrong with it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The chain.

TORGAN: So the chain's loose?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

TORGAN: They learn how to work on bikes and they earn points toward bikes of their own.

Oh, that looks great.

They learn good job skills.

This bike's getting quite an overhaul.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now I have "A"s and "B"s. They're like my guide to a better life.

TORGAN: There is opportunity to see that, yes, I have been able to accomplish what I thought I couldn't. It is not just biking. We are imparting life lessons.

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[17:57:00] HARLOW: Our thanks to that "CNN Hero."

I'm Poppy Harlow. Thanks for being with me. I'll see you back at 7:00 eastern.

But right now, time for "SMERCONISH."