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New Clues Found in Co-pilot's Home. Lufthansa Institutes "2- Person" Cockpit Rule; Prosecutor: Co-Pilot Hid "Mental Illness". Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired March 27, 2015 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: A lot of dads deal with this. And single dads have to do it alone.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Beautiful.
CUOMO: He didn't stop there. He started a Facebook page to encourage other single dads not to be scared. And now 9,000 followers.
CAMEROTA: That's great.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Well done.
CUOMO: So thank you very much.
CAMEROTA: That's better.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Send the alfalfa. That was better.
CUOMO: It's hard. It's hard. And he's got that nice smooth head. But he doesn't want that look for his daughter.
PEREIRA: No.
CAMEROTA: Good.
CUOMO: All right. A lot of news this morning. So let's get you to a special edition of the "NEWSROOM" with Anderson Cooper -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Chris --
CUOMO: Good morning.
COOPER: Chris and Alisyn, good morning. Michaela, as well. Thank you so much for joining us.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
COOPER: And a good morning to you. I'm Anderson Cooper. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and watching around the world.
This morning, new evidence that Andreas Lubitz should never have been in the cockpit on Tuesday when he plowed the Germanwings airliner into the French Alps. Now just a short time ago German prosecutors revealed that the co-pilot was hiding a medical condition from his employers and that he was deemed unable to work, even on the very day he killed 149 people aboard his flight.
Now this new evidence apparently seized in a police search of his apartment and the home of his parents. Investigators are searching for a motive. Was this an act of terror or a twisted mind hell bent on suicide and mass murderer?
CNN's Fred Pleitgen is in Cologne, Germany with the latest -- Fred.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. All of this comes from a statement that the public prosecutor in the town of Dusseldorf gave out. And one of the things that you read when you read that language in German is that it's very blunt for German standards. They're very clear about the fact that Andreas Lubitz was hiding that medical condition that he had from his employer.
He was hiding it from his employer for a very long time and he was hiding it from his employer on the day that this doomed flight took place. Now they didn't elaborate on what exactly that medical condition was, whether it was some sort of mental illness or whether it was -- or more physical illness. However, they did say that they did find several doctors' notes that have been torn up, including one that covers the day of the doomed flight.
Now all of this, as you said, took place after they searched the homes, both in Montabaur as well as in Dusseldorf. The indication that we're getting is that this information, the medical records were found in the apartment in Dusseldorf. They also said there was no good-bye note. They said that there doesn't seem to be any sort of political or religious motive but that this seems to be due to the fact that he had this medical condition that, again, they didn't elaborate on because the statement that the public prosecutor gave out was not something that they said on camera, it was something where they just gave out a written statement.
It wasn't very long but it was very, very clear, especially if you know the way that German authorities normally communicate. They were very blunt about the fact that they believe that he was trying to hide this condition and that that might have something to do or very probably has something to do with why that plane crashed on Tuesday -- Anderson.
COOPER: Now, Frederik, German privacy laws prevent somebody from giving out medical information. Does that still apply when the person is deceased and in a case like this?
PLEITGEN: Yes, it certainly still does. It still is the case that medical records won't be given out. It's one of the issues that we're having. But certainly one of the things that we're being told by Lufthansa as well because we kept asking them about personal information about this pilot. And they said simply something that they cannot disclose. Now on top of that, of course, you also have the fact that all of this
is part of a criminal investigation right now. And that also might be one of the reasons why the prosecutor isn't elaborating more on what that medical condition might be because, of course, at this point this time what they're going to be doing is they're going to be speaking to the doctor that treated him. They're going to be speaking to relatives, to friends to see whether or not they knew something about this condition that he was trying to hide from his employer -- Anderson.
COOPER: That was my next question. Do we know, have they interviewed his parents at this point?
PLEITGEN: We're not sure about the parents. Again, this comes from that statement as well. We're not sure if the parents are part of it. We do believe that the parents were interviewed at some stage of the game. I'm not sure if it was about this medical condition per se, but the authorities have been saying that, yes, they have been in touch with the parents.
Keep in mind that the parents were also one of the ones who were flown to France for that day when all the relatives of those who were deceased were brought very close to where the crash site was. And it was at that point in time that the authorities said, well, we have this new information. So they have been questioned. Friends have been questioned.
What the authorities are saying in this letter now from the public prosecutor's office is that there are interviews that are ongoing and also, of course, records that are being checked. So certainly they are going in many directions with all of this, but most certainly the direct relatives of Andreas Lubitz and the ones where he was living at, because he was living at his parents' house with his parents and his brother, are going to be very much the focal point of them trying to get additional information as to what exactly that illness was as to how much it contributed to him steering that plane into the mountains.
[09:05:04] COOPER: And, Fred, do we have any idea of how long he's had this condition or this illness? How long he's known about it? How long -- how far these notes from doctors go back?
PLEITGEN: You know, we don't have any substantial information as to how long he's already had this condition, however, of course there is this information that we've been talking about for a while now, that in 2008 when he was going through his pilot training, that he took some time off during that pilot training and -- for several months.
And there have been some media outlets that have said that it might have been due to the fact that he was suffering from some sort of depression, that he might have had some sort of psychological issues there. That has not been substantiated yet. But it does appear that he has had this medical condition for a very long time because the prosecutor, in his notes said that this was something that was an ongoing illness that was also requiring ongoing medical attention from some sort of doctor as well. COOPER: And, Fred, you talked about, you know, interviews coming
ahead. Do we know anything -- are there more locations for authorities to search or have they pretty much exhausted all the locations where this co-pilot lived, where he would have spent time or had documents?
PLEITGEN: Well, that's a -- you know, that's actually a very good question because there will be other places where they're going to search as well.
Keep in mind, this man's a pilot so he is someone who's been traveling considerably. He had his hometown in Montabaur which is about 100 miles from where I am. It's a fairly sort of rural suburban area so they're obviously going to be asking questions there. Then you have his apartment in Dusseldorf. That's obviously a place where he also knew people. He also knew people around the area.
You have the flight school, the Lufthansa flight school that he attended in the town of Bremen, in northern Germany. He spent considerable time there. Was there signals that maybe people saw at that point? He spent time in Arizona. We know that at well. At least half a year. This was something I was told by Lufthansa yesterday. He had to spend at least half a year at the Academy at Lufthansa in Arizona flight training there. So it's another place that they would potentially look.
And then of course you have this place where I am right now. The Lufthansa -- the Germanwings headquarters in Cologne, which is also significant because of course a lot of his colleagues are here. A lot of the -- a lot of the Germanwings flights originate from her. This is the Germanwings hub so he will have spent considerable time here.
Frankfurt, for instance, the Lufthansa hob, so there's a lot of places that they'll be looking at. Of course being a pilot he travels to a lot of places. He deals with a lot of other individuals. So there is still a lot of information that the authorities will try to get speaking to his colleagues, speaking to people that he might have met along the way.
COOPER: And obviously they'll be wanting to check any kind of medication that he may have been taking if it was something, a mental health issue, if it was something like even depression. Obviously there are many medications he could have been taking if he was actually actively trying to treat this or a therapist that he was trying to talk to.
But again, we'll have to wait and see on that. Fred Pleitgen, appreciate the update. We'll continue to check in with you over the next two of hours.
And before this latest information his employer stressed that the co- pilot showed no signs of being unfit to fly. In fact the Lufthansa CEO have an exclusive interview to CNN saying he's proud of his company's record and says even the best safety nets are not fool proof.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARSTEN SPOHR, CEO, LUFTHANSA AIRLINES: That something of this kind would ever happen to us is incomprehensible. And I think we just need to understand this is a single case which every safety system in the world cannot completely rule out. I think that's what we take as an explanation if you want to call it that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Of course once we know more about what the medical condition of this co-pilot was, it will be interesting to see what sort of policies Lufthansa actually has to try to help somebody deal with that, whether it is something that he could have gone to his employer with or whether he feared repercussions if he did go to his employer.
CNN's Rosie Tomkins is in Montabaur, Germany, which is as Fred said the hometown of Andreas Lubitz.
Obviously it has got to be an extraordinarily difficult time for -- obviously for family members but also for all those who knew this young man.
Rosie, are investigators -- have they finished the search to your knowledge, of his family's house, of his property there?
Obviously we're having a problem getting in touch with Rosie. We'll check back in with her.
The German prosecutor spoke a short time ago. And I want to bring our panel in this morning. Flight instructor, former pilot for Northwest Airlines, Scott Miller. CNN aviation analyst and former managing director for the NTSB, Peter Goelz and CNN aviation analyst Miles O'Brien.
Miles, it will be very interesting to see, again, how much the employer actually knew about any medical condition that this copilot had. Clearly it seems like he was trying to hide it from the employer according to the prosecutor.
[09:10:10] MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Yes. Really, frankly, probably more common than we'd like to think. Generally, you know, pilots, of course, in the U.S. and I believe in Europe as well have to have twice annual medical exams in order to receive their FAA first class medical certificate.
Generally they go to one doctor for that and then they have a personal doctor for the rest of their medical requirements, and there's not communication necessarily between those two doctors. There's sort of two paths that go on. And pilots are reluctant to self-report a lot of conditions because ultimately it can ground them and derail their careers. And there's plenty of track record of airlines not being understanding of some of these conditions, put it that way.
So it's a difficult situation and I think the -- there's got to be a solution here that allows the pilots to freely volunteer this kind of information without fear of some sort of incrimination in their careers.
COOPER: I understand, Miles, that we're getting some more sound from German prosecutor. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPH KUMPA, GERMAN PROSECUTOR (Through Translator): We have secured documents of medical nature and that indicate to a medical illness, mental illness. And we also found sick notes that were torn to pieces, that were -- sick notes that also included the day of the act, and this is why we assume that the killed person kept secret his illness before his employer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So there you have now from the employer talking about a mental illness.
Scott, a former pilot from Northwest Airlines, how difficult is it for a pilot -- I mean, depending on the severity of the mental condition, I mean, if it's something like depression, how difficult is it for a pilot to seek out help?
SCOTT MILLER, FORMER NORTHWEST AIRLINES PILOT: Well, it can present a large challenge. It is true that the aviation medical examiner issues those first class medical certificates. Pilots are required to disclose during those investigation -- or during those examinations any sort of problems they've experienced since their prior examination.
True, it is a self-reporting issue, but most pilots that I'm aware of are very conscientious about that. In most cases, we want to make sure that we're providing the highest level of safety for our passengers and ensuring we're fit to fly is the best way to do that. There can be some repercussions and it can be difficult. Most airlines are developing some programs right now that allow pilots to proactively seek treatment that won't affect their employment status.
COOPER: Peter, obviously this is something that's going to get a lot of attention now moving forward. You just had the German prosecutor there talking specifically about a mental illness. Again, I mean, there's a huge range that he could be referring to, you know, on one side it could be something as severe as schizophrenia or something like that. Obviously there's also depression and a whole host of possibilities.
It would not be surprising, Peter, if this co-pilot had a separate doctor away from the company physician that he was trying to or that he was getting these notes from.
PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, that's right. And, you know, frankly, this whole topic needs to be examined with a great deal of candor. Let's be honest about this. You know, pilots shop around good flight surgeons to take their medicals from, and pilot unions historically have had very tough relationships with management and they are rightfully fearful that if they self-report on issues like fatigue, on alcohol abuse, on drug abuse, on mental health issues, they are terrified that their careers are going to be hurt.
And, frankly, companies have the right to say, listen, if this guy's drinking, I don't want him in the cockpit. It is a very tough issue, but the first thing we have to do is start to have some real candor on everybody's part to examine it so that the flying public can be made safer.
COOPER: Miles, it's very possible other colleagues would also say to somebody, I don't want to be in the cockpit with this person, this person has a mental condition, this person is depressed, this person is whatever the case may be.
O'BRIEN: Well, that's a key point, Anderson. You know, historically this is how aviation has policed its own.
[09:15:00] Pilots evaluate each other. They spend a lot of time together in a very small room after all, and that's a key point to consider in this case. You've got a very, very green pilot, only 600 hours, 100 hours only in the Airbus A-320.
That's a very low bar to be in that seat. You would need twice as many hours to fly in that seat in the United States and have to have a rating called an ATP, airline transport pilot, which is kind of a PhD of flying.
The point in that is that it takes more time, more hours, more vetting along the way, more opportunity for pilots to evaluate the new pilot. This pilot was an unknown quantity because he was so new. That undermines that self-reporting capacity that pilots have amongst themselves.
COOPER: And if he's ripping up notes from the doctor, notes which would have excused him from work, again, that raises a question of how seriously was he taking his own illness, how seriously was he taking his own treatment and was he actually pursuing treatment? A lot we don't know at this hour.
Scott Miller, Peter Goelz, Miles O'Brien, thanks. We're on until the 11:00 hour this morning.
Still to come, like a fortress, that is how one expert described the strength of that cockpit door. Why some post 9/11 security features designed to keep pilots safe in this case may have backfired aboard Germanwings Flight 9525.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:20:16] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
COOPER: Welcome back.
We have two new pieces of information to tell you about. First of all, we've just gotten word that Lufthansa has now changed its rules that will now require two people to be in the cockpit at all times. This would seem an obvious change given what has happened on board flight 9525. We heard at a press conference yesterday from Lufthansa officials that
there was no regulation in Europe that would mandate having two people in the cockpit. The Lufthansa CEO yesterday said there was no consideration of changing that yesterday, that they felt their procedures in place had worked well up until obviously the Germanwings crash.
Now, they are changing their rule of mandating there have to be two authorized people in the cockpit at all times. That could be a cabin crew member if one of the pilots needs to leave for any reason to go to the bathroom or any kind of a break. A flight crew member would come into the cockpit until the pilot returned.
The other piece of information, we now have prosecutor on camera saying that the co-pilot did have a mental condition, a mental illness, and this is the first time we're actually hearing directly from the prosecutor talking about the mental illness though he didn't go into great detail.
Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPH KUMPA, GERMAN PROSECUTOR (through translator): We have secured documents of medical nature and that indicate to a medical illness, a mental illness. And we also found sick notes that were torn to pieces that were sick notes that included the day of the act, and this is why we assume that the killed person kept secret his illness before his employer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I want to bring in CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem. She's also the former assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
And I want to read something that you wrote on CNN.com. "We have built no backup plans into the secure cockpit programs." You wrote, "No system of security should rely on a single point of entry and while the post-9/11 security planning made sense then, it may have outlived the threat now."
Peter Goelz is also joining us now.
Explain, first of all, the word now that Lufthansa is changing their policy. That seems an obvious thing.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY: It's absolutely obvious. But no one should think that everything is solved. Look, airline travel, just given the nature of global travel, just look at how many countries were represented on this flight, is only as strong as its weakest link. So, one airline doing it isn't going to be solving it.
COOPER: It has to be across the board.
KAYYEM: It has to be across the board, international rules and regulations as we have in many different areas.
But as we, for example, in counter terrorism efforts, the December 25th attack in 2009, you know, you can have as much rigorous security as you want in one country, but if the guy gets on in Yemen or Tunisia, wherever, it doesn't work. So, that's part. What we need to do is get universal rules. One airline doing it is great given what we saw happen this week, but it's not -- the world is too globalized to think that one fix like this is going to stop the threat.
COOPER: Peter Goelz, we have heard some other European carriers have already begun to change their policies. But to Juliette's point, this really does need to be something that's across the board.
PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it needs to be thought through, too. What exactly are you asking the flight attendant or cabin crew member to do while he or she is sitting in the cockpit? Are they now going to be assessing the mental health of the pilot? What happens if the -- what are they expected to do if something untoward happens?
And remember, in the United States as Juliette knows, upwards of 15 percent to 20 percent of the pilots are armed. What exactly are we asking flight attendants to do?
COOPER: Well, I'm wondering, does this case make people reassess the idea of arming pilots?
KAYYEM: It might. I mean, the -- look, any security measure can also be used to create fear or to create harm. I mean, we know that. Look at the cockpit door scenario. We thought after 9/11, this makes sense. We've got to protect the pilots.
COOPER: And it does make sense.
KAYYEM: And it does make sense. The tragedy and tragic irony is, of course, we have where pilots are locking themselves in and destroying airplanes. The same is true with guns. They can be used to protect 200 people on the planes, they also can be used to kill them.
[09:25:00] No single security effort is going to solve or make us perfectly safe. It's just -- you're not ever going to have airline travel be risk-free, but you can minimize the risks through all these different mechanisms, cockpit doors, two pilots always in the cockpit, none of them is going to be perfect.
COOPER: Peter, it is something that the CEO of Lufthansa also said yesterday that all the security precautions you have in place, in the end, it is the pilot or co-pilot who's behind, you know, who's at the controls of this aircraft, and no matter what all the security precautions are, somebody has to fly the plane and the person who flies the plane can also destroy that plane.
GOELZ: Well, that's right. It's a very vexing problem. I think what needs to be done is there needs to be some thoughtful reassessment of the cockpit policy, the security policy, whether it's wise to have guns in the cockpit in the United States. You know, if you carry a gun in the cockpit, you're not allowed to
leave the cockpit with it. It's not as though you're going to go into the cabin and start a shootout. It's there to defend the cockpit. We've seen that the cockpit door does a great job in this, unfortunately.
So, I think we need to a thoughtful review of what we're asking the flight crew to do, how we're going to assess it. But it's got to be coupled with a review of how pilots and other people in the transportation industry who have the responsibility of hundreds of lives, how do we get them to honestly believe that there will be no retaliation if they admit that they're having issues?
COOPER: Well, that -- frankly, that's an issue which exists far beyond just the airline industry.
GOELZ: Yes.
COOPER: For any employee in any company --
KAYYEM: Look at the military, the same problem. And --
COOPER: There are concerns about reporting, about acknowledging. I mean, look at the stigma that mental health issues have in this country for anybody to come forward and say, I've suffered from depression, I have a mental condition.
KAYYEM: And the challenge for a big institution like an airline or even the military is if someone does come forward, you want them to come forward, but maybe they shouldn't be flying the plane with 200 passengers on it.
So, that's a challenge for institutions and that sort of suggests that there should be continuous review on psychology.
But I just want to pick up on what was said. That's exactly right. Our security tends to be static on the last threat, which was, of course, 9/11. Not the last threat but the last major attack. We need to be more nimble given the kinds of threats we have and that includes I think reexamining the cockpit door.
COOPER: And, for you, what would a re-examination of the cockpit door look like? What does that mean?
KAYYEM: I mean, it would either be, I mean, it would be -- either business appropriate, right? This is actually right. And that we figure out another way to protect ourselves from suicidal sociopathic pilots, or it is that you have some sort of mechanism on the ground or outside the cockpit door that at least someone can get in.
And maybe it's not possible, but certainly it has to be examined, because our security measures have been used against protecting people.
COOPER: Peter, the chance of a pilot doing something like this, I mean, it has happened to other incidents, silk air, there is a far greater chance of a deranged passenger or a passenger with evil intent rushing the cockpit door than there is, you know, the one or two people on the other side of the cockpit door doing harm to the aircraft.
GOELZ: Absolutely. And, you know, the arming of the -- of the -- the arming of the cockpit door has been enormously successful. A terrorist cannot enter the cockpit now, and that's it. But there has to be a continuous reassessment, and we do that as -- we do that in intelligence all the time. You know, we are continually assessing the threats.
And in this case I think it's been -- it's been a while since we've looked at these policies and procedures, and we need to do it again and we need to include all the stakeholders. Not just the pilots, not just the security people, but we need to talk to the flight attendants because they're really on the front line, aren't they?
COOPER: No doubt about it. Incredibly difficult job.
Juliette, thank you very much. Peter Goelz, as well.
Now, we learned just moments ago from the prosecutor that Andreas Lubitz had been hiding an ongoing mental health condition from his employer. The exact nature of that condition we do not know but that, the first time now we've been getting that directly from the prosecutor. He had a note from his doctor that would have allowed him to take time off from work, including the day of the crash. That note was found discarded and apparently torn up.
Senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is following this story.
Elizabeth, obviously this getting a little bit more -- another piece of the puzzle though there's still a lot we don't know about the nature of his medical condition, his mental condition.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, Anderson. That's going to be really key in trying to understand why this man did what he did.
I want us to be very, very careful here because many people suffer from mental illness, but they don't -- excuse me -- drive a plane into a mountain top. So I think it would be facile and a big mistake to say let's say if it turns out that he has depression, oh, he has depression, that's why he did it.
