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WSJ Report: Israel Spied on Iran Nuclear Talks; Netanyahu Apologizes to Arabs. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired March 24, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Israel accused of spying on the U.S. and Iran.

[05:59:06] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prime minister's office here categorically denies any spying on the U.S. or any of its other allies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Obama had said he would slash the current number of U.S. troops in Afghanistan by half. Ghani wants the president to reconsider.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much flexibility is there in the draw-down?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Islamic State Hacking Division calling on ISIS sympathizers to, quote, "kill the service members in their own lands."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no way that all of these people could receive a personal security detail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This case is not closed. It's suspended.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no evidence of a brutal rape at any University of Virginia fraternity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY, with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It's Tuesday, March 24, just before 6 a.m. in the east, and we do have breaking news overnight. Israel spied on the U.S. nuclear talks with Iran, eavesdropping on closed-door meetings to then leak information to U.S. lawmakers. Why? In an effort to sink a possible deal.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: The "Wall Street Journal" reports U.S. officials were aware of the spying almost from the beginning. How did the U.S. find out about it? By reportedly spying on the Israelis. We've got this story of subterfuge covered from every angle the way only CNN can.

Let's begin with CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson in London. What do we know, Nic? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what

"The Wall Street Journal" is saying here is that Israel was engaged in a broad campaign of intelligence-gathering to have an influence over the outcome of the Iran talks, that it was involved in eavesdropping that was involved in access to confidential U.S. briefings. That it was speaking to foreign diplomats, European diplomats who had access to this information.

"The Wall Street Journal" says, to gather the evidence of this article, that they've spoken to dozens of current and former U.S. and Israeli diplomats that they have talked to many others.

No surprise, obviously, that the United States and Israel would spy on each other. But the real surprise here is that Israel would turn and try and use this information against the White House to further its position. And it was discovered, as you say, by U.S. intelligence agencies spying on what Israeli was doing and hearing language in conversations there which made them realize that the information that they had and were discussing could only have come from a knowledge of what was going on inside those talks. So eavesdropping at the highest level -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right. So Nic, we have the intrigue of the politics surrounding the talks. Let's get into the talks themselves. The issue of centrifuges -- how many, what they can be used for -- that's central right now. What do we understand?

ROBERTSON: Well, one of the points that arises in the "Wall Street Journal" article is they used a number of 6,500 centrifuges, a part of the deal; that Iran might be able to use the IR-4-type centrifuge. This is a relatively advanced type of centrifuge. It's more reliable, and it produces more and better enriched uranium per enrichment cycle.

We've also heard last week from European diplomats, European sources that the figure of 6,000 centrifuges is something that's coming up in the talks.

So what does it mean? From what the State Department has been briefing us, centrifuges are just part of the bigger narrative. But the bigger number, it makes it sound like Iran is getting more of what it wants. And therefore, a high number means you have leverage, therefore, to perhaps sway the way people are thinking about the outcome of the talks.

State Department again continues to say this is part of a matrix, that you cannot take one item like centrifuges and get an idea of the strength of the negotiations based on that -- Chris.

CAMEROTA: OK, Nic. I'll take it. Thanks so much for that background.

Well, Israel denies the allegations of spying outlined in the "Wall Street Journal" report.

Let's go to CNN global affairs correspondent Elise Labott, live in Jerusalem with more. What are they saying, Elise? ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, vehemently denying, Alisyn. A senior Israeli official saying that, quote, "These allegations are utterly false. The state of Israel does not conduct espionage against the United States or Israel's other allies. The false allegations are clearly intended to undermine the strong ties between the United States and Israel and the security and intelligence relationship we share."

It's really no secret that Israel had a significant amount of intelligence on the details of this deal. When I was traveling to Washington with Prime Minister Netanyahu for the speech, senior Israeli officials told us they did. And in fact, the U.S. was very concerned that Israel was going to leak some of these details. That they were very coy about where they were getting some of that information.

But some of that information did come from other parties in the talks. The Israelis have been very up-front about the fact that they're trying to influence this deal with Iran, make it much tougher. To that end, the Israeli intelligence minister is leading a delegation to talk to some of the countries involved in Europe in the talks. He was just in Paris, seeing the French taking a tougher line in these nuclear negotiations, more in line than their thinking, almost. And now that delegation heads to London to try and make the case that this deal could be much tougher -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Elise. Thank you very much.

So we know that Israel is denying it. But the White House probably not buying it.

Let's get to CNN White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski, joining us right now.

How big a deal is this down there? Whether or not they spied is going to be fairly clear to the White House, right? It's what it means to them?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right, exactly. I mean, we've heard it said before we've been talking about it this morning that it's not surprising that both of these countries are going to be spying on each other. But this is such critical, sensitive time. And the White House, the National Security Council, they're not commenting on this reporting at all.

Although yesterday they did take the time to reiterate that the security and intelligence cooperation between the U.S. and Israel will continue. That's not to say, though, that the U.S. has not been extremely annoyed with Israel through this process over the last few weeks while the Iran negotiations have been going on.

[06:05:20] We know that the U.S. is re-evaluating its position in some respects, based on things that Israel has said. And also the U.S. has expressed deep concerns that Israel has been leaking information about the negotiations. Israel, of course, has denied that. But the White House has been worried about that. They say that that undermines the foundation of the relationship and that that's not the way allies are supposed to treat each other.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much for that. Let's bring in now Jamie Rubin. He's the former U.S. assistant secretary of state.

Good morning, Jamie.

JAMIE RUBIN, FORMER U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: OK. So before we talk about all of this cloak-and-daggery, and the subterfuge involved on both sides. Let me remind you and our viewers of what Prime Minister Netanyahu said, the details that he gave U.S. lawmakers when he made that controversial visit to Congress earlier this month. Listen to this.

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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: According to the deal, not a single nuclear facility would be demolished. Thousands of centrifuges used to enrich uranium would be left spinning. Thousands more would be temporarily disconnected, but not destroyed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Now Jamie, at that time, when he was giving those details, did you or anyone sort of raise your eyebrows and say how is he getting these details?

RUBIN: No, I didn't. Because most of those were already in the newspapers and reported by the journalists following the negotiations.

Look, there are some basic facts about the negotiations that have been well known. Really, what's going on here is that the Israelis and the Obama administration have a fundamental policy dispute about a matter of the highest priority to the White House and the highest priority to Israel. And when that happens there are always going to be claims and counterclaims about information being put out that's misleading. For example, those thousands of centrifuges were mentioned.

CAMEROTA: He used the number 6,500. But that was a number that wasn't out in the public. He -- Benjamin Netanyahu used the number 6,500. And it was hard to get a confirmation of that.

RUBIN: Well, but in the clip you just showed, he said thousands. That's what I heard the clip say. In newspaper accounts, there's been reports that he knew a specific number.

But the key point is that the Israelis left out a crucial factor. That most of the material needed to build a nuclear bomb would have been shipped out of the country. That's what the White House doesn't like: where there's cherry-picking of the specifics of the agreement, that gives the impression that the administration is giving away the store, when they don't think they are.

CAMEROTA: But can we get back to the spying for a second? Because it's probably not a surprise to you, who's an insider, that this sort of stuff goes on. But to average Americans, it is surprising to hear that allies are spying on each other. These were closed-door meetings. How -- do we know how the Israelis were able to spy inside that room?

RUBIN: Look, I haven't been in government for several years. What I remember from that time I wouldn't be able to talk to you about.

What I can say is that it's been widely known that the United States, Israel, Britain, France, have listening capabilities for discussions. It's usually not what goes on in a specific room. It's when those people leave the room, and go tell other people that information is not kept as close as it ought to be.

CAMEROTA: OK. So by the way, a senior Israeli official, as we just heard from Elise Labott, denies that they got this information from spying, and they deny that any sort of spying was going on. But the upshot of all this is what's the effect? What's the cost of this having come to light? Do you think it affects the Iran nuclear talks?

RUBIN: Well, I think it does and in the following sense: Ever since Prime Minister Netanyahu and the president have disagreed on Iran going back several months leading up to the speech in Washington and now all these stories about spying, what's happening here is there's a breakdown in the relationship. And so all this -- these stories that are negative are coming out. That's not an accident. People who would hold back in the past, feel free to talk to people about problems.

Where it hurts the talks, from the Israeli perspective, is that, for the first time in my memory, an Israeli prime minister does not have any clout in the Oval Office. The president isn't interested in what he has to say about these talks. And these talks obviously affect not just the United States, but Israel, too. And that's unique, that's unusual, which means that Netanyahu is forced to use the congressional lobbying method to try to get Republicans and if he's lucky, some Democrats to block this agreement.

[06:10:17] But I don't think he's going to be very successful, because of the partisan nature of this dispute now.

CAMEROTA: But do you think that it makes Iran less willing to be open and engage in these talks?

RUBIN: I don't think it really makes any difference in the end. The Iranians are going to make a calculation that they'll get enough sanctions relief for what they would require as regard as acceptable limits on their program. That's their big calculation.

And frankly, we're a long way from that. I was very struck by the fact that the leader in Iran wants the sanctions to be lifted all at once, and the west is not going to do that.

So I think we're a lot farther away from an agreement than people have led people to believe. And what this shows is how controversial this agreement is, because both Israel and the United States have a lot at stake. Iran has a lot at stake. And the two sides -- Israel and the United States in this context -- just don't agree on what we should be doing here.

And I hope that your viewers will understand one crucial factor that is rarely understood. For several years now, Iran has been able to build a nuclear bomb. They've chosen not to. And so what this negotiation is about, is not whether Iran can get the bomb. They've been able to do that for several years. They've chosen not to.

What the agreement is about, is how to make it harder for them to do it if they choose to; make it increasingly likely they'd be caught cheating if they tried; and to give them a better reason not to build one. That's what the agreement is about, not whether Iran can build a bomb. They can do that today. They've chosen not to. That's not well understood.

CAMEROTA: So true. Jamie Rubin, thanks so much for the interesting perspective. Nice to talk to you.

Let's go over to Michaela.

RUBIN: Nice to talk to you.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Alisyn. Yemen's foreign minister is asking for Gulf Arab states to help stop the advance of Houthi rebels, who have now seized control of major cities after pushing out the government. It all comes after U.S. and British special forces pulled out of Yemen, which is sliding dangerously close to civil war between the ousted government, the Houthis and al Qaeda.

CUOMO: Breaking overnight, security ramped up at Monday's NCAA women's basketball tournament in Maryland after a threat was made against President Obama's niece. That's Leslie Robinson. She's the daughter of first lady Michelle Obama's brother. She's a freshman forward for Princeton.

A caller claimed a man was on campus armed with a handgun and mentioned Robinson's name. It was a thorough investigation, and police determined the threat unfounded.

CAMEROTA: A revealing admission from Angelina Jolie. The actress says she recently had her ovaries and fallopian tubes removed. In a piece for "The New York Times" this morning, Jolie said she's been planning on the procedure for some time, but she fast-tracked it when blood tests showed warning signs of early cancer. Although those tests eventually came back negative. Jolie made headlines two years ago when she revealed that she had a preventative double mastectomy because of a genetic mutation that she carries that increases the risk of breast cancer.

PEREIRA: I really hope people, women, get beyond the headline and make sure to read her full op-ed, because she outlines in it exactly how she came to the decision. Do you know what I mean? Because I think people will say, "Oh, I have a risk, too, so I should do the same thing." No, read it, because she really talks about the choice and doing her research and talking to many doctors. She did a lot of homework before she did this. CAMEROTA: Look, I applaud her for being so public and, as a public sex symbol, to come forward and talk about these procedures. And in that is a big deal.

PEREIRA: It's forced her into menopause at 39.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

PEREIRA: Think about that.

CAMEROTA: Wow. That has to help. There are so many women who carry this genetic mutation and go through this. It just has to help to be able to see this icon go through it.

PEREIRA: Don't you think we should talk to Dr. Sanjay Gupta about that today?

CUOMO: Absolutely. I mean, it's one of the beautiful things about having him, because it does seems that there's a trend toward removal of different organs to avoid threat as opposed to treatment. It does seem like there is a shift that way. Is that because there's new science? Is that because people are jumping to the conclusion? But their doctors would have to allow it, right?

PEREIRA: Yes. Well, let's talk to Sanjay about it. He can talk to us about the medical and the ethical. Right?

CAMEROTA: I look forward to that.

Much more on that new report alleging the Israelis spied on the Iran nuclear talks with -- nuclear talks with Iran, then shared the intelligence with U.S. lawmakers in order to ruin a deal. Just how much does Israel spy on the U.S.? And vice-versa?

CUOMO: And you hear about this? A cold case in Vermont is now heating up. The question is, can cops make the case against Robert Durst in the disappearance of a college student over 40 years ago? We'll give you the information.

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CUOMO: Listen, there's no question that the U.S. and Israel have different ideas about how to deal with Iran. But the news is how they're dealing with each other. Espionage at the highest level, Israel denying it. The U.S. saying that they expect to be spied on by Israel. What is going on here? How is this information getting out? And what does this mean to the relationship between the two countries?

We have Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official. People are talking past what seems to be the headline to me, Mr. Mudd. You were in the spy game. Is this how friends treat each other? Espionage and then denying it and then supplying it to Congress?

MUDD: Well, hold on a second here, there's a bunch of pieces missing. We're looking at the corner of a puzzle here. There's a lot of pieces we've got to understand. Let me give you two in particular. First, there's the P-5. That is the permanent members of the Security Council, a lot of whom talk to Israel. And then added to Germany, also an Israeli ally.

Then there's a Iran, a long-time Israeli intelligence target. A lot of people in Iran know what's going on in these talks. It is not clear to me whether this information was gained from spying on Americans or gained from the sieve of the Security Council and the Iranian security and government services. There's a lot missing to this story.

[06:20:10] CUOMO: Well, Mr. Mudd, your friends in the U.S. intelligence service say that they know Israel was spying on them in this regard, because they were spying on Israel. And that's what your friends say, according to "The Wall Street Journal." You're saying they have it wrong?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Show me the money here. Let me tell you what I mean. If you're looking at talks, one way you could look at those talks is to gain technical information, bugging the Iranians, for example, intercepting their communications. They're one-half of this puzzle, and the Israelis are very good about working against the Iranian intelligence target.

So my first question is how are you sure where this information came from?

The second is the difference between intelligence and diplomacy. The Israelis are into every government that is in Paris, in London, in Germany, talking about what's going on in these talks. If you want to tell me that the diplomats from the Security Council in Germany who know about the details of these talks have never given any information to the Israelis, not as a result of spying, but as a result of conversation and diplomacy, that's nuts.

I want to know where the information came from. And my first guess is not that the Israelis are bugging us. I wouldn't rule it out. I saw it all in 25 years in this business. I just want to see the proof.

CUOMO: Well, they deny it. Right? I mean, they're...

MUDD: What are they supposed to say? It's a spy business.

CUOMO: Well, but look, they're an ally. They say, "We don't spy on our friends."

But still, once again, Mr. Mudd, your friends at the U.S. intelligence...

MUDD: Yes.

CUOMO: ... they say we caught them doing this. You're saying, "I don't know that that's so sure." Do you think they're wrong?

MUDD: No, I think what's happening here is we have a fundamental lack of trust between two governments that are close allies. That is Israel and the United States. The U.S. side is extremely frustrated that the Israelis are undercutting the talks by going directly to allies and going directly to the Congress.

There's information that suggests that the Israelis have a lot about these talks that they're laying on the table to Congress to try to undercut the president. I'm saying there's some extremely frustrated people in Washington, when they see the Israelis come to the table with a lot of detail. One of their suppositions is the Israelis are spying.

By the way, I do not buy that allies don't spy on allies. It happens all the time. I'm just questioning whether the details the Israelis are providing had to have come from the U.S. side. I'm not sure about it.

CUOMO: Let me ask you this. Who did the wrong thing here? If allies spy on each other, and it makes sense that Israel would want information because they don't like how the U.S. started negotiations with Iran without telling them back in 2012.

So is the real blame to be put on the U.S. for leaking that Israel was spying on them, trying to make Israel look like the bad guy? Who's the bad guy here?

MUDD: Well, first, I think the president has a responsibility to negotiate from his perspective in the best interests of the country. The Congress has a right to review this. They're pissing all over each other, because they can't sit in a room and figure out what to do. The Israelis get into the middle of that match and try to undercut the president. I think forget about the Israelis. A foreign policy stops at the borders of the United States. Republicans and Democrats have to get into a room. We're seeing what happens when they don't do that. We're seeing this spill over into a foreign country.

I was taught when I grew up in the CIA, that foreign policy stops at the shores of the United States. This is about mistrust within the branches of the U.S. government and mistrust of the traditional ally. It's not about spying.

CUOMO: I hear you, Secretary of State Mudd, but I think it is kind of about spying, because there's a lot of spying going on. And then we learn, well, of course Israel is going to be good at this. The U.S. helped set up their spy network to a certain extent that they're now using against the United States. Is that true?

MUDD: Well, sure, it's true. The Israelis are very good at what they did. I both worked with them and watched what they did against us over time. They are superb.

There's one other aspect to this, Chris, that you've got to know about, and that's how much of a sieve the negotiations can be. When I was working on covert programs at the CIA, Ii somebody walked into my room after we had a leak -- and I dealt with leaks to people like you all the time, it was a pain in the ass. When someone walked into the room as the result of a leak, they would tell me 50 people know about this program. Well, it turns out, once you do the investigation, 500 people know, 1,000 people know.

When you have seven parties negotiating details at the table. Again, that's the U.N. Security Council, the permanent five, plus the Germans and Iranians. If you tell me that not one of those people is leaking information to the Israelis as part of a standard conversation in diplomacy, I'd say no way. There's a lot of this that could come from elsewhere.

CUOMO: All right. I hear you on that. They could have gotten information from a lot of sources. We see that in "the Wall Street Journal" reporting, as well. Do you think they were spying on the U.S.? Yes or no?

MUDD: I think they were spying on the talks, and the U.S. participated in those talks. Whether they were targeting the U.S., for example, listening to someone's phone who's a U.S. diplomat, I'm not sure. I am sure they were spying on the talks.

This is a national security priority for the Iranians. It's about the top priority to Netanyahu, along with the negotiations or lack of negotiations with the Palestinians. To look at the alternative that they were not spying on the talks to me is not believable.

CUOMO: Philip Mudd, thank you very much. Appreciate the perspective as always. You never leaked anything to me, by the way, just for the record -- Alisyn.

[06:25:10] CAMEROTA: OK. Great conversation.

And wait until you hear this story. There is another sinister wrinkle in the Robert Durst mystery. New developments this morning in the cold murder case dating back to the 1970s. This is about an 18-year- old college freshman who vanished. She was last seen near a health food store owned by the accused killer, Robert Durst. Did Durst have something to do with her disappearance?

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PEREIRA: Israel spied on the Iran nuclear talks, then shared the intelligence with the U.S. Congress in an effort to sink a possible deal. This according to "The Wall Street Journal." Israel is denying the spying allegations. White House officials reportedly knew about the spying, but became outraged when they learned about the leaks to Congress.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is now apologizing to Israel's Arab population for the remarks that he made before last week's election that many considered racist.

CUOMO: A fraternity at the University of Virginia is exploring its legal options after police say allegations in a "Rolling Stone" article of gang rape are baseless. A four-month investigation found discrepancies in the account by a woman identified as Jackie who police say refused to cooperate. The Charlottesville police chief is not closing the investigation, however, choosing instead to suspend it, which is very unusual, does allow for new information that may come to light.