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TSA Hero Recounts Machete Attack; White House Vows To Reassess Relationship with Israel; Coffee Giant Defends #racetogether Campaign; "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" Based On A Lie; Suspect in New Orleans Airport TSA Attack Dies. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired March 21, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:35] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Five o'clock Eastern, you're in the CNN Newsroom, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. And we begin this hour with dramatic new details about the man who attacked TSA agents with a machete at the New Orleans Airport. And the incredible story of courage coming from one of those agents. The attacker was shot and wounded and we have now learned that he had a lots of dangerous explosives in his car. But first, I want you to hear from one of the TSA agents who was been chased by the suspect and was wounded in the arm. Take a listen to what agent Carroll Richel had to say about her terrifying ordeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL RICHEL, TSA AGENT: What I saw originally was one of the officers getting sprayed with the wasp spray, he took a bag and threw it at the guy which slowed him down and after that when he came through and I was yelling for everybody to clear the checkpoint, and then we all took off and ran towards where the LEO was, and I was calling run, run for them to get away from and I was calling for the LEO so she was there, and alert and she just, she saved a lot of people's lives. This man was swinging very hard, very hard with that machete and if he would have to make contact with anybody, it would have been terrible. And I just feel like our job as TSA is to protect the passengers and I'm proud to say they were protected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN's Shasta Darlington joins me now. Also with me is former U.S. Air Marshal, former FBI agent and former Navy SEAL Jonathan Gilliam. Thank you both for being here. I appreciate it.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER AIR MARSHAL: Thank you.

HARLOW: Shasta, to you first. Clearly that is the headline, the courage of this woman, thank goodness no one was killed. But this man, the suspect is he's like spotting something much larger.

SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. I mean, unfortunately for the investigators, he's still unconscious. They told us that just a short while ago in this press briefing, so they haven't been able to interview him directly. But what they did say, what the sheriff said is that shortly after the attack, they found in the isolated Richard White's car. And what they found inside is pretty terrifying. Let's take a listen to that.

HARLOW: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF NEWELL NORMAND, JEFFERSON PARISH, LOUISIANA: Six half pipe mason jars with cloth wicks into a liquid that we now know to be gasoline which you would commonly refer to as a Molotov cocktail. He had a barbecue lighter in the bag. He also had a letter opener plastic and there were some crushed powdery material found near his body with green fuses or wicks which we've determined preliminarily at this point in time to be smoke bombs that had been crushed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DARLINGTON: And obviously what that means is he was planning something on the one hand. But on the other hand that he had the material to do much greater damage if he had tried and if he hadn't been stopped.

HARLOW: Jonathan, I wonder, I mean, you're former air marshal, do you find it stunning that this ended with no one seriously injured or dead?

GILLIAM: Well, I think it shows you a couple of things. It shows you that the TSA individuals that were there, the officers I guess we could call them, you know, they are aware enough to where they reacted. And that really is the biggest thing because they're not armed. So now you see how important awareness it. Awareness and preplanning out your mindset when you go to work or actually go to the airport as a civilian, you see now how important that reaction is. Because they reacted quickly, one of them actually grabbed a piece of luggage to block, and then the officer that was armed responded in a timely manner. But the other thing that is alarming to me is the fact that, you know, this guy did this with a machete, some bug spray. Everything that he just mentioned inside that car you can get without even being looked at by any federal agent.

HARLOW: What do you have here? I know you wanted to show us something.

GILLIAM: Sure. So, OK, what I have here is -- I drew a picture -- let's see if we can see it. I drew a picture of basically Yankee Stadium, okay? So basically what we have here is, you see how -- and I know it's a crude drawing. But Yankee Stadium is surrounded by large roads.

HARLOW: Right.

GILLIAM: And on a day when there's a game, just any game, not any special game, people will actually file in here. And as they come in, you know, at the beginning of the game, people will -- yes, there you go. People will file in and they'll come like to the different gates single file. And they kind of randomly go in. [17:05:13] HARLOW: Right.

GILLIAM: We think of this whole thing as a soft target. A lot of people do. But the reality is this is pretty hardened right here. At the end of the game, however, most people exit out of these three areas where you will have at one point in this area right here you will have 20,000 people exiting a stadium at the same time with a road that is not closed. So what you have there is, you have created a soft target. And airports are the same way. And the reason I even brought this up is because I want people to realize when they go to an airport, when they go to a stadium, an arena, a concert, church, a school or a mall, for instance, they have to be able to identify where these large groups are and where an attacker is going to look to attack.

HARLOW: And Shasta, do we know if given this information the authorities are looking at doing anything different in terms of security at that airport in particular? I know they said it is safe, secure and fully operational.

DARLINGTON: Well, Poppy, I think we have to look at past examples. This isn't the only time that we've seen an attack in airports. And some have not turned out so well. So I think we need to start talking about is a bigger approach, a bigger reaction and not just at a single airport.

HARLOW: Right.

DARLINGTON: Because having one mentally unstable man in New Orleans doesn't mean that the New Orleans airport is more vulnerable.

HARLOW: No. It's about in general 2013, L.A., TSA agent shot and killed.

GILLIAM: Right. Miami. They had a similar incident.

HARLOW: Exactly. All right. We're going to debate it more on this show. We're going to talk a little bit more tomorrow as well. Should TSA agents be armed?

GILLIAM: That's a good question.

HARLOW: Thank you very much Jonathan.

GILLIAM: Thank you.

HARLOW: Shasta, thank you. I appreciate it.

Coming up next, the White House is unhappy with Israel's Prime Minister, specifically his controversial comments opposing a two-state solution. And then backtracking on those comments this week. Is America's friendship with Israel in trouble?

Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill join me to debate it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:10:27] HARLOW: The frosty relations between President Obama and Israeli Leader Benjamin Netanyahu have spied tension between longtime allies, the U.S. and the Israel. Netanyahu's comments around his notorious election this week only added to the strained relations. In a matter of hours before and after the vote he took both sides of an issue that has long been critical to any peace in the Middle East, insisting at first that he could not but later could support a two- state solution.

Let's bring in CNN political commentators Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson to talk about it. Guys, thanks for being with me.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

HARLOW: Marc, let me begin with you. President Obama waiting two days to call Netanyahu to congratulate him on the victory. And then the White House coming out and using a very key word "reassess" to describe the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. How significant is that?

HILL: It's significant because it's one of the first moments where there's been such a public wedge between the United States and Israel. We saw in August during the siege in Gaza that the U.S. was willing to say critical remarks about Israel. But in a sense they were echoing that of the international community. This is the first time where it feels personal and it feels direct, taking two days to respond, the criticism that the White House had of Netanyahu's speech before the Joint Sessions of Congress. All that stuff is incredibly significant. But I don't think long term that it's going to matter. And it's a disappointment for me. Because for me a Zionist union victory could have -- would have been a different outcome than a Likud Party victory and in this sense, this is an opportunity for us to completely reassess the situation but I think ultimately they end up in the same place.

HARLOW: Ben, let me ask you this. That word "reassess" is not new coming from a White House towards an Israeli leader was actually used back in 1975. That's when Henry Kissinger wanted to send a message to then Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, used that word. He called all the ambassadors back and it worked. I mean, later he admitted this was sort of political theater but it was effective. Will it be effective this time?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know if it will be effective. I mean, it's very obvious the relations between Barack Obama and the Prime Minister are not at a high point. They're at a low point. And I think the White House is okay, actually letting them get a little bit worse. I mean, look, there's two ways to look at this. One, politicians say a lot of things to get elected. I remember a guy named Barack Obama the day he was inaugurated said I was going to close down Guantanamo Bay. It's still open. People make campaign promises and say things that in reality don't happen. So, you know --

HILL: Are you serious?

FERGUSON: No, I'm being serious. My point is, you know, for the White House --

(CROSSTALK)

Let me finish. For the White House to act as if somehow Netanyahu saying things in the last hours of a campaign is going to change the entire relationship between the U.S. and Israel I think is a complete overreaction. And I think purposely the White House wants this to get worse before it gets better.

HILL: Wow! I've got to respond to that, Ben. Ben, first of all, comparing Guantanamo, right? Which began in 2008 as a promise and hasn't reached fruition yet is totally different. And again, I'm critical of Obama --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: No, but my point, it's a campaign promise and still not closed.

HILL: Let me finish. Right. But we're not talking about Obama today, we're talking about Netanyahu who hours before election, hours before election said that he didn't believe it a two-state solution. And hours after the election he says, you know what, maybe I do. It's an insult to our collective intelligence to suggest somehow that this is comparable to Obama on Guantanamo. Again, I concede the point. Obama's wrong on Guantanamo. We agree on that. But back to Netanyahu. Come on, man!

(CROSSTALK)

One more thing. One more thing. One more thing, Ben. No, Ben, one more thing though. The other issue here, it's not just that we're reassessing the situation because he made a faulty campaign promise. The entire relationship largely was supposed to be predicated on building a peace process. A peace process that has never seen any tangible benefits in the last few decades, probably since the last Camp David Accords. So, if Netanyahu --

FERGUSON: Marc, if you want peace, okay? I think then is the President closer to getting any type of peace deal or leaving here or as he purposely digging, putting a wedge to make it harder? If we keep relationship the way it is now between Barack Obama and Benjamin Netanyahu, there will never be a deal done and America will not be able to leave in that deal being done. So I do think that Obama --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Let me very quickly ask you this, guys, before we have to go. To you, Ben, House Speaker John Boehner, he's traveling to Jerusalem to meet with Netanyahu after being the one who invited Netanyahu to come to this country to speak in a move that the White House was not alerted about beforehand. Does that make things better? Does that make things worse, Ben?

[17:15:09] FERGUSON: I don't think it does either. I think it's consistent. I think John Boehner has said we're your friend before the election. We'll be your friend after the election. And I'm going to stand beside you before and after. And at least he's being consistent.

HARLOW: Marc?

HILL: The problem is, the problem is that's one of the most unhealthy friendships imaginable. Because what it leads to is no peace process. No reasonable resolution. No sovereignty. No land for Palestinians. No end to the siege in Gaza. No end to the settlements in the West Bank. No end to the obstruction of law --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: All right, guys.

HILL: What I'm saying is, pretending to be besties with Netanyahu while undermining a peace process for decades doesn't get us closer. Ultimately we need a fundamental shift and a global response to what's happening in Israel. And that can't happen if Obama cozies us to Netanyahu or vice versa.

HARLOW: Guys, we have to leave it there. We're going to talk about another issue after the break. We're going to talk about Starbucks launching the race together campaign. This week, some people saying, this is the right move, other people are saying, this is not something that should be launched on this platform. I spoke with Starbucks CEO. We're going to debate it after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:20:01] HARLOW: A move to spark discussion about race in America over a cup of coffee has sparked debate both online and offline. This week Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz launched the Race Together campaign, hoping to start a national conversation about race relations. Baristas can write Race Together on cups if they're up to. They're encouraged to talk about race relations at work. But some people have taken to social media arguing the company over stepping boundaries. Other people say, more CEO should speak out like this.

I spoke with CEO Howard Schultz this week and asked him why he decided to take this on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD SCHULTZ, CEO, STARBUCKS: I was like many of us in the country watching the cultural divide and the racial issues in Ferguson, in New York, in Cleveland and most recently in Madison, Wisconsin. And as a result of that I decided to have a series of town hall meetings internally at Starbucks. In all of those meetings they were unscripted but yet they were all the same. And that was people sharing their life experience and with great empathy, compassion, understanding. I think we all had a better understanding coming out of those meetings what it was like to be that person of color, to be that person who's discriminated against. We all have unconscious bias. And perhaps through education and understanding we would be able to move the country forward. We're not going to solve the race problem.

HARLOW: Right.

SCHULTZ: But perhaps by leaning into it we could have a positive effect on the national conversation.

HARLOW: You know, Howard, you were quoted in a "Time" magazine article recently, saying that people warned you not to touch this issue, that it was just too hot button of an issue and not to go near it. So, I'm wondering if you could tell us who advised you of that and why did you go ahead with it?

SCHULTZ: Well, first off, this is an issue I brought into the board room over the last few quarters. And to the board's credit, they understood that this is an issue facing the country, not only people of color but the entire country. And perhaps we could have a positive effect. But certainly there were people, friends of mine and certain people at Starbucks, who felt that this is not an issue that we should engage in. And I rejected that. I rejected that because if we all individually and collectively continue to be a bystander on something that is dividing the nation, where is this headed?

HARLOW: Let me ask you this, Howard. I was thinking about it. You're 61-years-old. So, you were 11-years-old when the march in Selma happened. I wonder, when was your first experience witnessing racism?

SCHULTZ: Well, I grew up in federally subsidized housing, the projects in Brooklyn. All the buildings in the projects were made up of a very diverse group of people. All lower class and lower middle class. So I learned at a very early age getting along, I was color blind. I didn't see color and I didn't see race at an early age. And that imprinted me with a level of empathy and understanding of how to get along with all kinds of people. So I have not had personal experiences of discrimination.

HARLOW: Right.

SCHULTZ: But I'm not coming at this because something happened to me. I'm coming at this because I'm looking at the landscape of the country, the outrage that is going on in cities across the country. Ferguson is not an outliner. This is happening in many places. And how much are we going to absorb and take before we take some steps as citizens, as businesses, as newscasters, to do something that is positive as opposed to being reactive and saying this is the way things are?

HARLOW: Some people say good, talk about it. Some people say, the coffee shop is not the place for this. And they feel like, is this the conversation I want to have with my barista? What's your response to some of that concern that people say maybe this just isn't the platform for such a sensitive, important discussion?

SCHULTZ: All we're saying is in view of how serious the problem is, we're asking ourselves, what can we do given the assets we have and what we do every day to try and elevate the conversation in a voluntary way. But again, that is a small piece of the puzzle. The big piece of the puzzle is, we're creating real serious content that will be a tool for people to take home, to read, to understand, and perhaps one person in every store will be better informed and as a result of that have more empathy and understanding and compassion to others. If we do then that the company is successful. This is not about the stock price or p.r. or marketing. I think this is a bigger issue. And that is that companies, I believe, have a deeper responsibility today to their people in the communities we serve. And I'm trying to use our scale for good. That's the bottom line.

HARLOW: Let me show our viewers this "Time" magazine cover that you were recently on. It shows a box unchecked for 2016 candidate. You and Starbucks have taken a clear position, a progressive position on gun control, on gay marriage, on jobs, on wages, on veterans. And now on racism. To many this sounds like a position list for a future presidential candidate. I know I have asked and I am going to ask again. Are you considering at all a run for the White House?

SCHULTZ: I have no plans whatsoever to run for political office. I'm very happy in the job I have. And I think I can use the position and the platform I have for good. And that's what I'm trying to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:25:39] HARLOW: So, what do you think of the move? Do you agree or disagree? We'll find out what Ben and Marc think. They'll debate after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:28:51] HARLOW: This week, the CEO of one of the most recognizable companies on the planet did something few CEOs of public companies would even consider, Howard Schultz asked people in his stores to talk about race relations. The reaction in the debate online swift.

Let me bring in CNN political commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill to get their reaction. Guys, we just played a big chunk from my interview with Howard Schultz. You guys heard it. To you first Ben. What do you make of the move?

FERGUSON: I think this has got to be somewhat of a political move by the CEO and his future. I know you asked him are you going to run, he says no. But this is I think laying a foundation. I just don't think that getting up, ordering a cup of coffee is going to be a good idea to bring up the big issue of race relations. I actually think it actually almost marginalizes how big of an issue it really is by doing this thing. And you can solve it in a drive through line. And the bigger issue for me is the fact that when you go in and I did this not once but twice this week and I tried talk to a barista about race, they had no clue what to say. They had no idea how to handle it. I said, so let's talk about race. What do we want to accomplish? And they looked at me like I was a foreign object. So I feel bad for the employees.

[17:30:01] HARLOW: Marc, let me -- just to clarify one thing, Schultz told me, "This is not going to solve the issue and we are not a perfect company, but I couldn't stand by and do nothing." Marc, what's your take?

HILL: Yeah. I mean, in fairness to Howard Schultz, he wasn't suggesting that Starbucks could fix the race issue in America. But I do think it's important for us to have a conversation. I think he's right. Ordinary, everyday conversations about race are what we need. We don't need to treat race like it's a very dangerous thing we can only talk about under specific circumstances or after a crisis. What would be it like to talk about race pre-Ferguson, not just post- Ferguson, et cetera, et cetera?

However, I agree with Ben. This is not the way to do it. First of all, it's not like they're doing some sort of professional training or development for the staff. These are people who are working their jobs. They don't necessarily have the language or equipment to talk about race in ways that uplift the conversation. Also people don't want to be cornered into conversation about race. When I want my pumpkin latte at 6:00 a.m., I don't necessarily want to talk about white supremacy, either. And I like talking about it.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: When I order a black coffee, I don't want it to have some bigger meaning, either. Just, give me my coffee. It's early.

The other thing, it felt manufactured to me. When I went in and got a coffee, there was a sticker they put on my cup. I literally said, "What does this mean to you?" The lady looked at me so nice. She had no idea. This was a corporate pushdown. She put the sticker on the cup. That was all it was, and it meant nothing to her.

HARLOW: So here's the thing. I understand that. But what I also understand is that if no one does anything, then what gets accomplished? You have to take risks and try things and see if they work to at least keep things moving.

FERGUSON: I'm fine with pushing for this.

HILL: Absolutely.

FERGUSON: But here's the thing. If the Starbucks CEO really wanted to make a difference, why not sponsor a forum at college campuses? Why not sponsor a forum in Ferguson? Why not have town halls that they pay for and bring in experts to talk about race? That's why I think part of this is self-serving for him and maybe his future career in politics.

HARLOW: So let me be clear --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Marc, then I'll get to you.

They have held these forums and town halls that they have totally paid for and put on in St. Louis, California, here in New York City. So they have been having those ahead of this push.

But, Marc, I want you to respond to what some people have said. OK, what we also want to see is even more diversity within the company. You've got 40 percent of Starbucks employees that are a minority, 18 percent of the top leadership are minority, 29 percent are women. And some folks have come out, Marc, and said, look, I want to see more of your top executives be those minorities.

HILL: That's exactly the point. I think it's important to respond. They have to do something. But the response should be principled and it should be informed. I think that Howard Schultz is a principled guy. I know Howard Schultz. I like Howard Schultz. I don't want to be cynical here. I think he's doing the right thing or at least thinks he's doing the right thing. I just think he could have made a different choice funding programs, as you said, investing in education, doing even more forums. He's done forums, you're right. He should be doing more forums is important.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Hold on one second. One of the funniest things from the ads for the Starbucks, they noticed in the ad was all the hands serving coffee were white.

(LAUGHTER)

So they weren't even conscious of sort of what the images were of there what the optics were.

FERGUSON: Poppy, here's the thing. You better have your own house in order and be above reproach if you're going to lead the way on this. It reminds me of the White House when they continue to say that women deserve equal pay but women at the White House still to this day --

HILL: Wow.

FERGUSON: -- make less money than men do at the White House. So if you're going to come out in the State of the Union and say women deserve equal pay, you better make sure your own White House they're deserving equal pay.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Ben, you're always on time with an Obama dig.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Ben is always on time with an Obama dig.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Gentlemen, we're going to leave it there because this is actually not a political segment. But it was starting to be one.

HILL: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

[17:33:58] HARLOW: Stick with me. We're going to talk about something important after the break. I will say, whether you agree with the Starbucks movement or not, I'm glad we're talking about it.

Coming up after the break, the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, a whole movement grew around that with four words, "hands up, don't shoot. But that is not what happened when Michael Brown was shot by Officer Darren Wilson, according to the Justice Department. We're going to talk about what that means for the broader movement and those that embrace the idea, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: After the police shooting death of Michael Brown, four words spread nation-wide, but according to the Justice Department, "hands up, don't shoot, is not an accurate description of what really happened that day in Ferguson, Missouri.

Here's CNN senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(CHANTING)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCE (voice-over): Four words, they've been repeated at rallies, painted on signs, and brought thousands of protesters, hands into the air, ever since the August killing of unarmed teen, Michael Brown, at the hands of Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson, when eyewitnesses initially said this.

TIFFANY MITCHELL, WITNESS: He puts his hands up like this and the cop continued to fire.

PLAGET CRENSHAW, WITNESS: He put his hands into the air, being compliant, and still got shot down like a dog.

(CHANTING)

STELTER: Those four words, along with the "Black Lives Matter" movement traveling across the country not only via rallies but through the news media and pop culture. The St. Louis Rams causing an uproar among police after several players take the field with their hands in the air.

And it has had staying power. Even months after the grand jury decision, Pharrell turns his hit "Happy" into a dark performance, incorporating the tag line at the Grammys.

UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Hands up.

STELTER: The word echoes through Congress, too.

Some assuming it is true that Brown actually had his hands up. For others, it is a symbol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want you to know that our hearts are out there marching with them.

STELTER: Here at CNN, a panel of commentators, moved by the protests, put their own hands up after the grand jury decision.

Some people celebrated it, but others were outraged by the continued use of the phrase.

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST, MORNING JOE: The St. Louis Rams think it's cool for them to suggest that St. Louis cops shoot young black men who have their hands up in the air when we know that that was a lie? It's a lie.

STELTER: "The Washington Post" writer, Jonathan Capehart, concluding this week that "hands up, don't shoot" is, quote, "built on a lie."

In fact, a Department of Justice report concluded that evidence contradicts eyewitness claims that Brown had his hands up.

(CHANTING)

[17:40:09] STELTER: Now as protesters call for justice, some are phrasing it differently, "Black Lives Matter."

Brian Stelter, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Let's talk more about the "hand up, don't shoot" issues with political commentators, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson.

Marc, to you.

Seeing what the Justice Department wrote in this report a few weeks ago now, what do you think this does to the movement that grew out of it?

HILL: I don't think it does much damage to the movement that grew out of it. I've not just analyzed this and written about this also someone who's on the ground as an activist at various points and currently with regard to the black lives matter movement and "hands up, don't shoot, chants being a center of that. "Hands up, don't shoot, wasn't merely an evidentiary claim. It was also a claim about the despair and despondency that many people feel in black communities because unarmed black men and women continue to be killed, whether it's Trayvon Martin, Remeisha McBride, others. All these are experiencing death by police. That's the issue here. It wasn't merely an evidentiary claim.

So irrespective of what we see in the DOJ report, the claim "Black Lives Matter" is still central. The notion of "hands up, don't shoot, is still important. I don't want that to ever be obscured by an individual set of circumstances.

HARLOW: Ben --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: This is the problem that we have when we have situations like this and the big issue with race. We want to actually have a real conversation. We can't have conversations based on things that never happened, based on lies. You got to look at Darren Wilson, for example. He was attacked by someone. We use the word "unarmed" to make it sound that Michael Brown was less of a threat to that police officer. The reality is he attacked a police officer in the car and went after him and his gun and it got him shot. In that situation you're not an innocent, unarmed bystander. You're someone who is committing a crime, who has just committed a crime.

That police officer, Darren Wilson, is now going to have to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life because of a lie that was told. He's going to have to be fearful for his life and change careers because people said "hands up, don't shoot," when it never happened. Where is the justice for that guy who went out and did his job as a police officer in America and was attacked? Now he's still a target over something that never happened.

HARLOW: Marc, I want to get your response to a "Washington Post" column that's gotten a lot of attention by Jonathan Capehart. He wrote, in part, "We must never allow ourselves to march under the banner of a false narrative on behalf of someone who would otherwise offend our sense of right and wrong. And when we discover that we have, we must acknowledge it, admit our error and keep on marching."

HILL: Amen.

HARLOW: I would imagine it's been clear to everyone that the Justice Department report, which said "hands up, don't shoot" is not what happened in the case of the shooting of Michael Brown and also outlines the atrocities of racism that were rampant through the Ferguson police department. The "hands up, don't shoot" part did not get as much attention.

HILL: That's interesting. I would argue the opposite has been the case, we spend a lot more time talking about that now than the systemic problems in Ferguson, St. Louis police departments and broader nation and world. There's probably two sides of the story here. At the end of the day, we have to take the Department of Justice report seriously. We shouldn't dismiss it.

I was on the ground in Ferguson. I interviewed eyewitnesses, spoke to people on and off the record who say they were there, have evidence they were there who tell a very different story than the DOJ report. I'm not saying the DOJ report is wrong or they're wrong. I'm taking it all seriously.

But again, my criticism of what happened in Ferguson wasn't reducible to what happened between Darren Wilson and Mike Brown in that interaction. There's an entire array of circumstances.

(CROSSTALK) HILL: No, no, it's not.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: The movement started with that boy laid on the ground for four and a half -- what I'm saying is that movement didn't start when we got evidence of what happened between Darren Wilson and Mike Brown. It happened when we saw that poor boy's body stay out there for four and a half hours as if he belonged to no one. Not a citizenry, not a community, not a police force, medical establishment. We responded to that. Then as more evidence came out from the militarized police force, to bad voting patterns, to corrupt police, to racist e-mails, we saw a system of injustice there. It's not reducible to one piece of the case. We need to talk about all of it.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Here's what I would say. The DOJ report is important. It's also important to realize if you start a narrative based on a lie, it takes away from the actual real conditions and things in the report that you and I both agree should be changed. And I also think that it also puts police lives at risk, including those two police officers that were shot in Ferguson, because when you have a narrative that someone put their hands up and they were killed cold-blooded murder when it never happened, there are people that never hear the other side of that story. And look at what happened to those police officers that were shot in Ferguson recently.

(CROSSTALK)

[17:45:08] HILL: They were killed by a mentally ill man.

HARLOW: Guys, we've got to go. I appreciate the debate. It will continue on this show.

Marc and Ben, thanks very much.

FERGUSON: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Coming up next, how dangerous is the situation in Yemen? It has become so perilous even America's toughest troops are evacuating. We'll bring you the latest next.

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HARLOW: U.S. military is evacuating Yemen this weekend, but not for much longer. About 100 special operations troops, that is Navy SEALs and Army Delta Force troops -- were the only U.S. forces still deployed in Yemen -- they're now being evacuated from an air base because of security concerns. Keep this in mind. Yemen is home to al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. Some things have happened in the past few days that make Yemen very volatile, especially right now. Bombs exploded in two mosques on Friday, killing at least 137 people, wounding another 350. ISIS says they pulled that off. Then yesterday, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters escaped from two prisons within Yemen as well. The U.S. embassy was closed last month there, when a minority rebel group took over the capital and also has tried to at least once kill Yemeni's president.

Jonathan Gilliam is a former Navy SEAL, former FBI agent, and he joins me now in New York.

When you look at this, this is -- let's remember Yemen is a region that the president, not even year ago, said was somewhat of a success story in fighting terrorism. What happened?

[17:50:14] JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL OFFICER, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, I'll tell you, there's nothing stable or successful about the fight in Yemen. Just a good example of the reality of Yemen is they have a war chest that's over $20 million a year that they collect money through kidnappings and basically extortion. That's how out of control this place is.

HARLOW: Are you talking about the deposed president of Yemen or the Houthies, the rebel group?

GILLIAM: That's a good thing to bring up. We don't know a lot of the town which is group is group when it comes to kidnapping people. You have the ISIS fighters. We do have at least we think now is, al Qaeda in Yemen, and the other side, rebel groups. It goes back and forth, but it's a very dangerous, very unstable area to begin with because we actually had a footprint there.

HARLOW: What I don't understand is, OK, so the U.S. is pulling out our last sort of advisers on the ground there.

GILLIAM: Right.

HARLOW: But we have those advisers and just put more into Iraq, for example, to fight ISIS. So if you talk about Yemen where it looks like ISIS is getting a stronger hold than ever before, why pull out completely?

GILLIAM: Well, I don't know the exact circumstance what's going on here. They may have been pulling back. There may be a shift off the coast where these individuals are going, these operators are going. I don't actually know that and haven't been able to confirm where they are pulling out to. But I think overall what you just explained about Iraq and Yemen at the same time, is it just goes to show you that, you know, whether it's Obama -- and I think there's a failed overall mission plan when it comes to fighting global terrorism. And it's not just Obama. I mean, it's globally. Look at France, Canada, Denmark. People are waiting till it's too late and then they get attacked but also they're not going to the direct root of the problem, places like Yemen where people are getting trained, places like Iraq where we created a vacuum.

HARLOW: Libya.

GILLIAM: Libya, where we created a vacuum, and it constantly gets filled by these people.

HARLOW: Correct me if I'm wrong, it's not so much us creating a vacuum, it's these states becoming failed states with such poor economies and collapsed governments that create a breeding ground for this.

GILLIAM: Yes and no. I like to use the war on drugs as a good example in this. We did the same thing in the war on drugs. We go in and we try to stop a cartel, for instance, and we remove that cartel. But what that does is it creates a vacuum and it's filled by other cartels that are even more dangerous. So that's what we've done. When we've eliminated a lot of these dictators from these other countries in the fight on terror and we leave or we pull back, you know, we don't occupy, we don't have a further plan for it, and then even worse, we change administrations, the plan goes nowhere.

HARLOW: The question becomes how many countries can the U.S. and the West occupy and for how long? And is that really our responsibility? So that leaves us an important question.

GILLIAM: It's getting there. It's getting to be our responsibility. We'll see. Thank you.

HARLOW: Thank you very much, sir.

GILLIAM: Thank you.

HARLOW: And thank you for your service to this country.

More news straight ahead after this break.

But first, we want you to meet this week's "CNN Hero."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, Chelsea.

CHELSEA ELLIOTT, CNN HERO: I was a very active child. Anything I could see I grabbed. I was barely four when I lost my vision in my left eye. The following years, I was so angry. This was an irreversible change.

25 percent of children ages 5 to 17 have a vision problem. 25 percent. How can you fully embrace all of the opportunities available if you can't see them?

Keep looking right at the light for me.

Our program provides free vision screenings to all school age children in Maui County.

We actually use advance technology which allows us to test in seconds. Had this device been around when I was 4 years old, it could have saved my vision.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter loves books. So when I got the letter, we were caught off guard.

ELLIOTT: Hi.

Riley came from the same background as I and we both turned out to have pretty severe conditions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Riley is only four years old. Because they caught it early, we can help her.

[17:54:30] ELLIOTT: Just seeing her even today with glasses knowing that her vision is going to be completely fine because we caught it, that's what we do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCE: This is CNN breaking news.

HARLOW: All right. Breaking news just in to us here at CNN. It is about that attack on TSA agents by a suspect armed with a machete last night at the New Orleans Airport.

Shasta Darlington joins me with the latest.

What do we know?

SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have just learned that that suspect, Richard White, died. The sheriff's office just announced this. He died at 5:02 local time. And so, of course, this means what the sheriff told us before, he was never conscious. They never had that opportunity to talk to him, to interrogate him to really find out what motivated this attack. We now know that he is dead. And they also told us that his family had been cooperating all along so, this will be a blow for them.

HARLOW: I know that they believe that he may have been planning other attacks because of what they found in his car.

DARLINGTON: That's right. Shortly after the attack, they went to his car, they found it, and what they discovered inside were Molotov cocktails, these tanks of gas, and everything that would lead them to believe that he had more weapons to really obviously inflict a lot more damage if he had tried.

[17:59:38] HARLOW: Yeah, no question about it.

Shasta, thank you very much. Very lucky no one else was killed in that incident or more severely injured.

At 7:00 eastern, you'll hear the emotional sound from this amazing TSA agent named Carol, who was able to not only protect other people at the same time that she herself was shot in the midst of all of it. 7:00 eastern, right here, when I join you again.

We're going to take you to a quick break.

"Smerconish" coming up right after this.

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