Return to Transcripts main page

LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Details of Police Shooting of Mentally Ill Man; Facebook Postings of Nude, Sleeping Women, Get a Fraternity Suspended. 12:30-1p ET

Aired March 19, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:30:10] RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But here is the thing, Officer Hutchins says he lunged at Officer Rogers first and raised the screwdriver in the air. Officer Rogers says he lunged at Officer Hutchins first. Both officers agreed though that the screwdriver could have been used as a deadly puncture weapon.

With Jason bleeding out in the driveway, backup arrives. Listen as Officer Hutchins tries to explain to the others why they fired.

ANDREW HUTCHINS: He was in the doorway, he had a screwdriver, we had this behind us, we had to shoot. He came at us.

KAYE: But did he? Watch again?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it, drop it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay, Jay, Jay...

KAYE: The Harrison's family attorney says if Jason had really lunged at the officer, you would have seen his whole body fill the screen of the body camera.

GEOFF HANLEY, HARRISON FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: No, he didn't lunge, he didn't stab, he didn't jab. There was no thrust, there was no Zorro move.

KAYE: And what about after the shooting? The officers continue to yell at him to drop his weapon as he lay motionless. Listen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) Drop it guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put the damn thing down. Put the screwdriver down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh man.

KAYE: After several minutes, Officer Rogers gets close enough to remove the screwdriver from the victim's hand and then puts his hands behind his back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you handcuff him?

KAYE: Jason Harrison's mother had specifically requested officers who were trained to deal with the mentally ill answer this call. The attorney for these officers tell us they do have that training.

About five and a half minutes after the shooting, the ambulance arrives. But it was too late. Just 38, Jason Harrison was already dead. Randi Kaye, CNN, Dallas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Joining me now is Keith Wenzel who is a former police sergeant who trained officers for the Dallas Police Department and even developed a new curriculum for how to respond to situations like this.

Keith, thanks so much for being with us. I really need your perspective on this. So, you told the Dallas Morning News that they did an absolutely perfect job. And I'll paraphrase here adding that you would show this to students, you'd show them this video as an example of good tactics. Why is that?

KEITH WENZEL, FORMER DALLAS POLICE OFFICER: Well, absolutely and I'll stand by that. When you watch this video and keep this in mind Ashleigh, you just -- and just your opening statement right there, your opening question. In less than 10 seconds, that's about the same time the officers had to make a decision of what force to use and how to handle this situation. OK.

And I've watched this many, many times, probably six or seven times already. And each time I see a different perspective. And the officers don't get that perspective. They have less than seconds to make a decision. Now, you got to understand too the fear that the officers in. I believe the officers did an absolute perfect job.

Now, nobody is going to like the outcome of this. It is sad, it's tragic that the person in that door was shot and killed. But keep this in mind Ashleigh, I mean this family had and I just leaned that what the persons deceased has is 36, 37 years old I believe. I thought he was 20. That's what I was told initially. They've had 30 something years with this young man and they couldn't control him to the point where they needed the police to come help, and these officers are.

BANFIELD: So that's -- yeah, that's part of the issue that I'm struggling with here and that is that the family says in a lawsuit that officers had been called to this home over a hundred times.

The call that came in and I'm just going -- I'm going to read out what the 911 dispatch was to the officers.

Call came in from the mother. I got a mentally ill son and I need help getting him to department hospital. And here's what the officers heard in their cruiser. 17-15 over, 17-25, and then they say the address, bipolar, schizophrenic, black male, bald, white t-shirt, gray capri pants, man is arguing needs to go to Parkland.

So, the officers are responding knowingly if they didn't already know from the many different officer responses to that home that this is a bipolar schizophrenic man needing to go to the hospital. Why then would they have put themselves in a position to be so close to that door and so close to a volatile person?

WENZEL: Well, let me ask you. What do you think they should have done? Get on a loudspeaker at the end of the driveway and order the family and everybody out of the house. Now that's not realistic and keep in mind and I don't know a lot of these facts. And I'm just speaking on the tactics.

The officers approached the door in a calm manner. I mean there's no question about that. They are very calm, relaxed, they knock on the door, their voice is very calm and relaxed, quite frankly the first person who actually yells, who uses extremely loud voice is the mother, not the officers.

[12:35:09] And yes, when somebody has a weapon, your voice will almost naturally become elevated. But the officers did a great job. They remain calm. And then I know what you're thinking. Well, maybe they should have backed off the porch. I'm going to use a funny term to describe a zone, an area, a hula hoop. Imagine Ashleigh a hula hoop. Think of the area that's within that hula hoop.

Now, they're on a kind of slightly elevated. There's cars blocking then to come in and out of that where the mother is. She walks right by them. And what you don't see clearly on the video is the facial postures that she is using. What she's -- what she is saying with her face. But what she said with her voice was very clear. He's crazy, he's bipolar, he's schizo and she continues to leave instead of standing right there saying, "Something defective, would you help him, please."

OK. Now keep that in mind. So you've got less than seconds. Their attention is drawn, immediately to him. And keep in mind officer too Ashleigh, you've got two officers who have two different views. One may be looking to the right, to the left. One may be looking over and one may be looking to the mother and the other says, "Drop the weapon. Put the knife down." Whatever the words he uses, we expect in law enforcement and public should know this, there should be an immediate answer to that call, suspects, violators, citizens.

BANFIELD: With people who aren't mentally ill, you're absolutely right. You are right. But with people who are troubled and knowingly troubled, doesn't that change the equation.

WENZEL: OK.

BANFIELD: And maybe that loudspeaker that you suggested actually might have been a better idea. Loudspeaker from the end of the outside the hula hoop, stay outside the hula hoop when you respond to this kind of a location that is so known to you for dangerous situations even in the past.

WENZEL: And I'm going to tell you that's very unrealistic. With the call load the police officers have and I know each call is important. But with time constraints with police officers, that's totally unrealistic. And the officers, their approach was perfect. But still, let's still go back to that hula hoop, keep in mind this that the suspect has a screwdriver and that's a deadly weapon. Imagine somebody sticking that screwdriver in your eye, in your face, in your heart, anywhere on your body, you would react negatively if somebody were that close to you. And we've all seen in movies but let's not talk about Hollywood.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

WENZEL: Let's talk realism.

BANFIELD: But when we told the story, you're right, you know, Keith, I think it does get lost sometimes in the story that police officers do suffer assault on a regular basis. They do put themselves in dangerous situations on a regular basis. That's the reason we call them America's bravest.

I have to cut it there. But I really appreciate you giving us this perspective. It's not often that we hear that when we have a dead man, a dead mentally ill person. But we certainly need the guidance.

WENZEL: And sadly and that even in your last story, it seems like there's an attack on law enforcement and sometimes we make mistakes. But why is it when we don't make a mistake, nobody is willing to stand up and say, "Look, they're tactics." Although horrible in the end, or within training, within the decision making that we give them and the circumstances present and that's what we need to see in America today.

BANFIELD: Keith Wenzel, appreciate your time. Thanks so much for your perspective.

WENZEL: You're welcome.

BANFIELD: Thank you for that.

Next, was Jason Harrison's death avoidable? His family says he didn't have to die and we're going to speak with them. His brother is going to join me live here on legal view right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:42:05] BANFIELD: I want to take you back into the story now, that mentally ill man who was shot and killed by Dallas Police. Properly handling mentally ill people, who are acting out, can be a very difficult task for responders. Most police and fireman and EMT responders get special training for how best to manage these kinds of emergencies.

And the mother Jason Harrison said she called 911, like she has dozen of times in the past, to ask for help in getting her son to the hospital. But this time, she says it ended in tragedy.

What I'm about to show you is another clip from the body cam of one of the officers involved in the shooting. And in it, you can clearly hear the responding EMTs who came after shots were fired, talking about how they knew this victim from a previous call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's her mother?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A couple of weeks ago, maybe? Over here, a couple of weeks ago, I mean we knew with just a matter of time talking else went down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yet another floor?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. Yeah. Him, he was threatening his mom and his brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a knife, his brother had a gun, just a couple of weeks ago. They took him to (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: know, we're leaving (inaudible), I mean his brother said this happened several times. He said it's just a matter of time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something is going (inaudible) but somebody let him back out. He said, he's going to do the same thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What were he doing this time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was in that doorway with a screw driver.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Threatening his mom again.

POLICE: We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told us, he always threatening his mom. But last time his brother put out a gun on his brother, he already got a butcher knife, right at his mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did the call came out as? I don't even know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your call has been updated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh (inaudible) bipolar schizophrenia son.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now, imagine having to deal with the brother who is schizophrenic and bipolar and think about what it would be like if the people you trusted to help and protect your brother shot and killed him. That is the reality for my next guest.

On the other side of the coin now joining me is Sean Harrison. He's the brother of Jason Harrison. Jason is that mentally ill man that Dallas police officer shot and killed this past June. Sean, thank you so much for being on the program.

First and foremost, it was just hair-raising to hear your mother on that video tape. How is she doing?

[12:45:02] SEAN HARRISON, BROTHER OF JASON HARRISON: As well as expected, we just, you know, just surround her and trying to keep her going.

BANFIELD: So can you help shed some light on all of this, understanding there is a lawsuit in place. But what did your mother see as she yelled first, "Jay, Jay, no," after they had said, "Drop it. Drop it guy." What did she see? What was she yelling, "Jay, Jay, no," about?

HARRISON: She was actually, I mean, standing there. She was able to see everything that was going on. And she saw the guys, officers, when they pulled their gun. And she was yelling at Jason to just -- "Whatever you do, just stop," because she see exactly what's going on, what's about to happen. And she knows that he -- unfortunately, he didn't.

BANFIELD: Did he lounge at all of the officers? Did he make any movement towards them?

HARRISON: No, you know, if you look at the video, he made no lounge at no one. If you notice, when he fell, he fell away from everyone because he was already hit in that direction, away. Because this guy was to his right yelling at him with a gun in his face yelling and he went up -- he try to avoid it. He didn't want a confrontation.

BANFIELD: Sean, let me ask you did the EMTs who arrived to try to treat Jason were heard on that tape saying that they had been there, just, I think, a couple of weeks prior, and they outlined something that sounded so troubling, an incident where they said your brother had a butcher knife, that he was threatening your mom and that they said Jason's brother had to pull a gun on him. Is that you? Are you the brother they're referring too?

HARRISON: No, but he had threatened my mother. No. I mean, it wasn't like that. It was unforced (ph). I heard that myself. And, you know, I just kind of look at it myself and I said, well, you know, things coming out shapes, size and color, so here we are, but we deal whatever comes our way.

BANFIELD: To be very clear, do you another brother who has been in the home with your mother and with Jason in the past that may have been the brother they're referring too, or are you Jason's only brother?

HARRISON: I'm his -- I'm the only brother. I'm the only brother. We have stepbrothers that come by, but clearly that's not how that went.

BANFIELD: So was Jason ever brandishing a butcher knife or ever threatening your mom at a time when she had to call for help?

HARRISON: No, she -- I've never seen her -- seen him threaten my mother. And of course she stated she's never been threatened. You know, Her calls are to get help because, when his office mates he talks and he keeps her up all night. She didn't give him a chance to rest. And that's how she knows his office mates. And she'll call him.

BANFIELD: And how is she or any other member of the family called for help to 911 over a hundred times?

HARRISON: I'd imagine -- I mean, we're talking of 19 -- 18 to 19 year time span.

BANFIELD: Well, Sean Harrison, I hope that there is some kind of closure to all of the parties involved in this. It is so distressing to see it. And we're sorry that we're having to speak with you and your family under these circumstances. This is a terrible tragedy for you. I think it's a tragedy for everyone who's involved. And certainly, I hope that leads to some kind of solutions for how to deal with the mentally ill and these kinds of calls. Thank you, Mr. Harrison.

HARRISON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, fraternity hazing, excessive drinking, racist songs and just when you thought you heard it all, a frat Facebook page featuring nude girl. Not the kind you might think. These ones were apparently passed out and had no idea they were being photograph, and then broadcast online. The real shocker is what these fraternity members are now saying about this and who's really at fault. Here's the hint, "Apparently me."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:53:02] BANFIELD: It seems everyday we're seeing new instances of despicable fraternity boy behavior allegation of hazing, and anti- Semitism and nude photos of a toxicated women.

And now another fraternity chapter has been suspended for a year this time at Penn State University. The frat Kappa Delta Rho. A private Facebook page including graphic photos of nude women, some who appeared to be asleep or passed out certainly not knowledgeable about what was happening.

The page also had some screen shots and some photographic cellphone text messages. And one of the messages curiously said "LOL delete those or we'll be on CNN in a week." And guess what you got your wish, it could be the least of your worries though. I want to bring in CNN Commentator and Legal Analyst Mel Robbins and Criminal Defense Attorney Midwin Charles they join me live now.

Ladies, I want to read you this quote from an interview with Philly magazine from someone who clearly supports the fraternity and its right to have this Facebook page with the naked women, he's a member of the fraternity and he says this "It was a satirical group. It wasn't malicious whatsoever. It wasn't intended to hurt anyone. It wasn't intended to demean anyone. It was an entirely satirical group and it was funny to some extent. Some of the stuff, yeah, its raunchy stuff, as you would expect from a bunch of college-aged guys. But, I mean, you could go on any one of hundreds and thousands of different sites to access the same kind of stuff and obviously a lot worse than expect a lot more explicit."

And the magazine interviewer said "You said the page was funny. What was funny about it?" And the member said "Its not funny, funny is not always the right word its satire."

Can I ask you ladies is it also criminal?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No.

BANFIELD: Not criminal?

ROBBINS: Not under the State of Pennsylvania.

BANFIELD: To photograph and broadcast?

ROBBINS: If Pennsylvania just passed a law last year the intimate partner at there only one of 15 states in the Unites States Ashleigh that have revenge foreign statutes. The problem with Pennsylvania is you have to prove that the person that posted it intended to harass the victim in the photograph by posting it.

[12:55:05] BANFIELD: Midwin, if is this person had a relationship with the naked woman he photograph while she was sleeping and posted it online for the 144 members to laugh at. Isn't that's bad enough?

MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is bad enough. But I actually I disagree with Mel. I think that we are going to see it, it wouldn't be surprise, I wouldn't be surprise, if we didn't see charges of invasion of privacy or at the very least harassment which is always a typical catch all crime when you're looking at this sorts of situations.

These women appeared who have been photograph without their consent. Clearly an invasion of privacy and also who's to say -- I'm sure an investigation may bare this out were those photographs use to extort anything that those women...

BANFIELD: I wonder if the president of the university heard those comments because I'm going to read you what Penn State President Eric Barron said in the statement. He said "The evidence offered by the Facebook postings is appalling, offensive and inconsistent with the University community's values and expectations. It brings us to a point where we must ask if a re-evaluation of the fraternity system is required. Some members of the University senior leadership believe it is, and we are considering our options."

So if it ain't criminal, it could lead to the end of a very prominent system.

Mel Robbins and Midwin Charles, thank you for your input into that well continue to watch the story.

Thank you for watching everybody, my colleague Wolf Blitzer begins right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)