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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

ISIS Claims Responsibility For Tunisia Attack; UVA Student's Bloody Arrest; Mentally Ill Man Shot And Killed. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired March 19, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:25] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We're going to begin this hour with the breaking news on that story in the museum. The massacre in Tunis. An audio recording has just turned up online claiming ISIS is behind yesterday's attack on the Bardo Museum, which is part of a complex that includes the Tunisian parliament. Twenty-three people, that is the count now, 23 killed, almost all of them foreign tourists. Two gunmen also dead, but others got away, on the loose, being hunted down. Nine suspects have now been arrested.

I'm joined on the phone right now by CNN's Phil Black, who is working this story in Tunis. I'm also joined here live by CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank.

Phil, first to you. The very latest on the investigation and those who have been arrested. What do we know?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, Ashleigh, from what we understand is that there have been nine arrests today in total. The Tunisian authorities have moved fairly quickly. And at least four of those, we are told, are said to have a direct link to the attack - to the attack as it took place. We don't know precisely what link that was. Whether these are people who had a direct involvement, who may have been shooters on the day or otherwise. Five of those who were arrested are said to have some association with the individuals or perhaps even the group that was responsible.

Up until now, the Tunisian authorities have not speculated publicly about whether or not this was an organization, but just now, just in the last few moments really, ISIS itself has released an audio message online in which it claims responsibility for this attack. It's a reasonably short message, but it says that two of its operatives have carried out an operation in what it describes as one of the dens of infidelity and immorality in Tunisia. It identifies two of the attackers, Abu Zakaria al-Tunisi and Abu Anas al-Tunisi, and says that they actually blew themselves up after they ran out of ammunition, knocking back any suggestion that it was the Tunisian security authorities or security forces that may have been responsible for ending the attack. And, of course, this audio message ends with a warning that there will be more attacks like this to come, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And then what about those who have been arrested? Were they arrested locally? Did they - did they find them trying to cross borders elsewhere? Do we know anything of the circumstances of what got them to those people?

BLACK: We don't know that level of detail just yet, no. And it's important, obviously. But this is clearly an ongoing investigation. The Tunisian authorities have moved quickly. They've - the prime minister today has said that one of the attackers was known to the security forces here in some way, but not to the point or certainly not to the point where he'd registered enough concern to be under constant surveillance or anything like that. They didn't suspect that he was planning an attack.

In terms of these others, as I say, we don't know precisely what role they are alleged to have in the attack itself, except that the authorities here are saying at least four of them were directly involved, five others more of an association.

BANFIELD: Phil, also another question I think, I don't know if the answer's out there yet, but certainly people are going to want to know, what were the nationalities of those killed in terms of perpetrators and those arrested? Were they locals? Were they from elsewhere?

BLACK: Well, because the authorities here haven't officially identified where the - who these people are, who those - the attackers that were killed are or where they were from, we don't know that officially. But according to that ISIS e-mail, by referring to - sorry, audio message, I should say. By referring to each of them as al-Tunisi, ISIS is saying that these are two local Tunisian men. Two local, home-grown terrorists. And it's - it's certainly possible, it is no secret, that there is a large jihadi element in this society, many of which have traveled to Syria to fight for ISIS believed to be in the thousands. So it's entirely possible that that is indeed the case, if not likely. Of course, the victims, well, that was a broad international mix. And across Europe, Asia and beyond, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Sure. Sure. Yes. All right, Phil, stand by for a moment.

Paul Cruickshank, the issue now, trying to deal with this claim, this audio claim. American authorities telling CNN there's no reason to disbelieve the authenticity of this claim. At the same time, they're trying to figure out if this is a local franchise rather than a centrally directed attack by ISIS. Does that make a difference?

[12:04:50] PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, I mean we know this claim is being put out there. it's a three minute audio recording. But this claim offers no proof whatsoever that ISIS was behind this. it could be just completely opportunistic them trying to attach their name to this attack. Obviously there needs to be a lot more investigations.

It Tunisian government has said that so far in their investigations they have not found any ties yet to any kind of organized terrorist group. Now the operative word there is yet. Clearly ISIS are now claiming this, so it's possible that this is a - these are Tunisian fighters who were with ISIS in Syria and Iraq and that came back. About 500 fighters are believed to have come back to Tunisia.

But it's also possible that these were Tunisians trained inside Libya. ISIS is now running training camps in eastern Libya between Benghazi and Daner (ph), in the Green Mountainous area, a very remote mountainous area, for a variety of North Africans, including Tunisians. So quite possible that whoever was responsible could have trained in Libya, not necessarily Syria or Iraq.

Inside Tunisia there's an indigenous radical group called Ansar al- Sharia in Tunisia with about 40,000 followers. Back in 2012, just a few days after the Benghazi attack by a similarly named group in Libya, this group in Tunisia launched a (INAUDIBLE) protest account - attack against the U.S. embassy in Tunis. So there are a variety of candidates that could be responsible. There's also al Qaeda in North Africa, which has a brigade in the mountainous region near the Algerian border in Tunisia. They've been the most active terror group inside Tunisia.

BANFIELD: I think so many people are so confused by Tunisia being, you know, at the - at the head of the spring - at the Arab Spring. I mean this is where it began. You would think there'd be more enlightened people. You'd think there'd be no appetite for this kind of extremism. And yet is it - is it the result of a government that proceed the current government allowing sort of carte blanche for religious freedom and freedom of expression without keeping it in check, without watching what was going on in certain mosques, in certain areas, suggesting freedom of religion, sure, but not freedom for this kind of death cult.

CRUICKSHANK: Well, I mean, you know, Tunisia has been the poster child of the Arab Spring. They've got a lot of the politics right. They've elected freely a secular president, a secular prime minister. There's a moderate, pragmatic Islamist opposition, which is committed to - committed to democracy.

BANFIELD: But did they know what they (INAUDIBLE)? Did they know what they were going to be thinking?

CRUICKSHANK: I'm sure, you know, that this has sort of freed up space for some of these Islamists to operate more freely than before because of this political opening. I think one of the big problems though in Tunisia is the lagging economy. A lot of unemployment. That's created frustration.

BANFIELD: That's a problem right across the Middle East and the far east.

CRUICKSHANK: And so young people are turning to radical Islam in -

BANFIELD: I mean that's the -- that's the formula for this.

CRUICKSHANK: Yes. But you -

BANFIELD: It's always that.

CRUICKSHANK: That's absolutely right, you've got to get the politics right first. In Tunisia, they're getting that right. The economy, that's going to take some time. Clearly, with the -- perhaps the collapse of the tourism sector now, Tunisia needs all the help that it can get. I think the Europeans really need to stand up here in - provide some assistance, also the Americans, to Tunisia, because if Tunisia goes towards radical Islam, that sort of greater involvement in groups in Tunisia, then, you know, you're looking at the failure of the Arab Spring right across the region. Nobody wants that.

BANFIELD: Right. Paul Cruickshank, it's an incredible story yet again and who knows what the next Tunisia is going to be and how much aid is going to be needed there as well. It seems to be a pretty - a pretty big problem to try to combat. Thank you for that. And thank you to our Phil Black as well for doing our reporting in the region as well.

Coming up next, a student leader at the University of Virginia, photographed earlier than this event, bloodied and taken down by the officers. It was a videotape struggle that has the governor of Virginia calling for an investigation. But what really happened? What started it all? And maybe the big question, what don't we know?

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[12:12:05] BANFIELD: Some pretty dramatic pictures have surfaced of the bloody arrest of a University of Virginia student. In the video he screams at the officers using profanity and accusing them of being racist and brutal. And we want to warn you, the video is disturbing. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTESE JOHNSON, UVA STUDENT INJURED DURING ARREST: How does this happen? Are you racist (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, these (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

JOHNSON: How does this happen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were just like, yo, what (INAUDIBLE) I.D.

JOHNSON: How does this happen? How does this happen you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) racist?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That is 20-year-old Martese Johnson in the video. It's outside of a bar just after midnight. Johnson's attorney says that the blood on his face came from a head wound after being slammed to the pavement when police took him into custody. The incident and the video have sparked immediate outrage on campus and around the country. The governor has ordered the Virginia State Police to look into this matter and investigate it. Johnson himself appeared at last night's protest rally and called on his fellow students for calm and respect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I want the remainder of the students up here to be able to share their opinions and share their feelings. And so I beg for you guys, regardless of your personal opinions and the way you feel about subjects, to please respect everyone here. We're all a part of one community and we deserve to respect each other, especially in times like this. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to be perfectly clear here. We still do not know what led to the take down. The officers you saw in the video are from the Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control. I want to break down what we do know and what we don't know. CNN's Nick Valencia is live in Charlottesville.

So, if you can be as clear as possible on the response from the police thus far. What are they saying happened?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, police were saying that this third year student, 20-year-old Martese Johnson, was acting agitated and belligerent, Ashleigh, after being denied entry into the bar you see behind me. They say that that's what led to the confrontation, that he was being uncooperative.

Now, it's important to note that we don't know exactly what happened after he was allegedly denied entry for what police say is using a fake I.D. His attorney denies that. But we don't know what happened after he was denied entry into that bar, to the point where you see him in that video pinned down by those special agents. Johnson's attorney saying that his client is a victim of excessive force. The police saying that Johnson was simply not being cooperative.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And apart from that, are they now basically buttoning up because this is becoming a police investigation, are they not at liberty to explain anything further?

VALENCIA: Well, sure, that's part of it. The government is launching an independent investigation into this unit, those special agents. And those agents that you saw on the tape, we understand, are -- have been paid on -- put on administrative leave as, you know, as this probe continues. This investigation continues.

[12:14:59] But this is a group, it's worth pointing out, Ashleigh, it's a group that's very familiar to campus students here. It's a unit that's charged with, you know, it's cracking down on underage drinking, and that's what they were doing that night. Mixed feelings about how students feel about this - this agency, but they say they've never seen something quite like this. That video, as you mentioned, pretty - pretty disturbing, pretty graphic to watch.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And, you know, here's the - here's the situation, Nick, as I'm sure you're aware, everyone wants more information, especially when there is something that's only partial.

VALENCIA: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: A video that's only partial.

I want to play now, Nick, if you've give me this moment, just in the program that proceeded us, Dr. Marcus Martin, who is the vice president of diversity and equity at the University of Virginia, gave an interview to our Kate Bolduan and he talked about his conversation with Martese about what's happened. And here's how he accounts for some of the events that led up to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MARCUS MARTIN, VP, DIVERSITY AND EQUALITY, UVA: He was then taken to another group of ABC officers, from what he told me, and was asked again for his I.D. He took out his I.D., showed it and then was an exchange of words. And then I think whatever he said perhaps provoked the ABC officer and he was grabbed by the neck and pushed down into the hard surface, which basically is a hard brick surface in front of the pub. And that's where he sustained the injuries. And so my interpretation and looking at him after he had been sutured, looking at the photos of what happened that night or early in the morning, I surmise that the force was excessive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The force was excessive. That's the voice of Dr. Marcus Martin, the vice president of diversity and equity at the University of Virginia.

I want to bring in attorney Joey Jackson, who's here with me now.

Listen, this is critical. The facts are what matter in all of this.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Always.

BANFIELD: My guess is that there were other witnesses potentially in that area. This was St. Patrick's Day in a nightclub zone. Clearly, the ABC was out there because of this kind of activity on St. Patrick's Day.

JACKSON: Sure.

BANFIELD: But when Dr. Martin says this, he's referring to his interview of the victim at this point.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: And let's not forget, when kids are talking to university officials, these are officials who hold the cards for their future, as well.

JACKSON: No doubt. Absolutely. And, listen, all we could expect here and hope for is a full and fair investigation. We know that the governor has weighed in on this and the governor has asked for an independent investigation by the state and I think that's what we'll get. But I think it will boil down to a couple of things, and what is that? It will be, what threat was he posing at the time that he was ultimately asked to show the I.D., if any? And what was the force used against him? We see the force. You know, the tape is inconclusive in terms of exactly what the background of that was. We see him there and, Ashleigh, as it shows in the tape, on the ground, but what led to him to get on the ground? Was he compliant? Was he not compliant? Was he intoxicated? Was he not intoxicated? Was he doing anything that would provoke the officers to cause him to have ten stitches or was he not? And so after the investigation concludes, we'll see whether the use of force was proper, appropriate or excessive.

BANFIELD: A couple of things to put in here as well. The charges he's facing are intoxication and profanity and obstruction without force.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: And I'm paraphrasing what they are. There's different verbiage in the code in Virginia.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: But Dr. Martin also said that he didn't believe that Martese was legally drunk. This is a 20-year-old male. Does legally drunk have some kind of a definition for an underage versus someone over 21?

JACKSON: Well, not in accordance with the statute he's charged in. It's public intoxication. And usually that statute, in Virginia, is left to the subjective interpretation, Ashleigh, of the police officers involved. What were his eyes like? Were they watery and bloodshot? Was he swaying and unsteady on his feet? Was his speech slurred in any particular way? And so I think that will be evaluated.

But even if he's found to have been publicly intoxicated, the real question will be, did it justify what occurred here?

BANFIELD: Right.

JACKSON: Did this force have to be used against him, even if he was intoxicated -

BANFIELD: A friend -

JACKSON: Or even if he did obstruct the police in any way.

BANFIELD: A friend of him who took the video told "The New York Times" that during this pre-melee, there may have been an arm grab by the ABC officer and a request to come away from the bouncer and speak to the officers.

JACKSON: To which he pulled back.

BANFIELD: To which there was some resistance there.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: And maybe that's what began what could have spiraled out of control. This is the stuff we don't have on video.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: And, Nick Valencia, if you could join me back again and answer something for me. There is - there has been some criticism that's been surfacing about the Alcoholic Beverage Control officers in this area in the past. That they have, you know, overstepped their limits. They've had to settle in terms of one lawsuit I believe where a young woman was buying sparkling water and they surrounded her car and didn't identify themselves and she panicked and tried to flee because she didn't know who these people were and she had water in the car.

VALENCIA: That's right.

BANFIELD: What is the prevailing notion about - because, look, this is a problem. We just had Ferguson Police Department broken down by the DOJ as having systematic problems. Are there systematic problems that are being alleged here with the ABC?

[12:20:07] VALENCIA: Well, that's certainly something that they're going to look into in this independent investigation. But we do know that incident happened a couple of years ago, according to the local newspaper here, where these special agents and investigation concluded that they did not use common sense when they stopped a student here they mistook for buying alcohol underage. She was really just buying a case of wattle bottle - water bottles and she eventually settled her lawsuit.

But, listen, Ashleigh, getting back to this story here, what happened on Wednesday morning, early Wednesday morning, it's not just that it happened, but it's that it happened to this individual. Martese Johnson is one of the one most prominent students here on campus when you talk to students. He's heavily involved. His ties to the university are endless. And that's why you saw hundreds of people come out in support in that rally, including - including Martese Johnson and the university president. They were there as well.

You know, so when I'm talking to students here, they're telling me, you know, it's not just - just that it happened, but it happened to Martese. Somebody that's heavily involved in issues like this, that's highlighted issues in Ferguson, that the DOJ report has talked about incidents with police officers, law enforcement and unarmed civilians. This is something that he has spoken about publicly before in the past on campus and now he's involved in a situation like this himself.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right. Yes, go ahead, Joey.

JACKSON: And, Ashleigh, more of the -- I think the investigation will also focus in on what caused the police to focus on him. Was there any undo focus on him versus any other students? In other words, was there (INAUDIBLE) treatment as it related to him versus anyone else? We don't know that but I'm certain the investigation is going to seek to find why was he the focus as opposed to any other students who were there.

BANFIELD: And then on the ground, it is clearly heard, and there is a charge to go with it, you f-ing racists, you f-ing racists, as he's being arrested. Is that critical in this investigation, critical to the circumstances?

JACKSON: Well, clearly in his mind he felt that he was targeted unfairly.

BANFIELD: But can you use that profanity? I mean you could certainly say you're being racist. I protest what you're doing. I disagree with - how dare you. But you f-ing racist, you f-ing racists, is that troublesome?

JACKSON: I don't know that it is. I mean when you are in a situation like that, when you have stitches and blood flying out of your face, I don't know how accountable you're going to be for the derogatory language you may use based upon the feelings you have at that particular time.

BANFIELD: Do you think they'll - do you think they'll drop that? Do you think they'll drop that charge?

JACKSON: You know what, it's too early to tell in the investigation.

BANFIELD: Yes.

JACKSON: We'll let the investigation play out. But I think critical in the investigation is, why did this escalate so quickly and why did they focus on him?

BANFIELD: Did the story escalate because the picture was so bloody?

JACKSON: Absolutely. I think the story escalated because you see a use of force there and people want to know, the students want to know, was it justified, was it not justified. Why, Ashleigh, as we look at the picture, did it have to come to that? Were there reasonable alternatives that could have been employed that would have gotten him under control, perhaps out of the, you know, the establishment and everyone safe and carried on their business.

BANFIELD: Which is what this always boils down to, why the escalation, what happened and was it legitimate? So we're going to continue gathering the facts.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: The critical part of gathering the facts.

Joey Jackson, thank you.

JACKSON: A pleasure, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Nick Valencia, thank you as well for following this story. Let us know when you dig up more. JACKSON: Another story we're following, police say the suspect in a string of Mesa, Arizona, shootings yesterday is a convicted felon who was out on probation. There he is. Feast your eyes, Ryan Elliot Giroux, being questioned now in the shootings which killed one man and wounded five others. And as they look for the motives, they may have actually been printed on his face.

Coming up also, a mentally ill man armed with a screw driver shot dead by police. Was it unavoidable? A closer look at police policy and practice and how the officers handled a tough situation. We'll also hear from the victim's brother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:27:23] BANFIELD: The disturbing body cam video showing the tragic death of a mentally ill man in Dallas is reigniting the debate over whether police should use deadly force in these certain circumstances, especially when it comes to mental illness. The family of Jason Harrison, they say they want the video to spark reforms in how the police interact with the mentally ill. We want to warn you that the video we're about to show you is extremely graphic. It is, obviously, very disturbing to watch, but it's critical to the story. CNN's Randi Kaye reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two Dallas police officers arriving for what they expect will be a routine disturbance call. Other officers had been to this home dozens of times before. This time would be different and it's all about to be captured on the officer's body camera.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police. Hello. What's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey (INAUDIBLE). What's going on?

KAYE: Shirley Harrison answers the door. She'd called police about her son, Jason. He's bipolar schizophrenic and off his medication. She's trying to get him to the hospital.

SHIRLEY HARRISON, JASON HARRISON'S MOTHER: Oh, he's just off his medication (ph). (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is that?

SHIRLEY HARRISON: (INAUDIBLE) bipolar schizo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's going on?

KAYE: As Shirley walks out, police notice a screw driver in her son Jason's hand. What happens next is hard to watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you drop that for me? Drop that for me, guy!

SHIRLEY HARRISON: Jay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it!

SHIRLEY HARRISON: Jay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it!

SHIRLEY HARRISON: Jay. (INAUDIBLE). Oh, you killed my son! Oh, you killed my son!

KAYE: Within 10 seconds of the front door being opened, Jason Harrison lay dying his own driveway, shot at least five times, twice in the back, by Officer John Rogers and Andrew Hutchens, who was wearing the body camera. His family says Jason hadn't committed any crime, nor did he likely understand why officers were even there.

KAYE (on camera): What do you think police that day could have done differently?

SEAN HARRISON, JASON'S BROTHER: They should have not have been yelling orders off the top because you've got someone that's mentally - they're already confused. Now you stick a gun in their face and you yell at them.

KAYE (voice-over): When Shirley Harrison had called 911 for help, she told them her son was mentally ill and needed to get to a hospital.

SHIRLEY HARRISON: They didn't take him to Parkland (ph), they took him to the morgue.

KAYE: So why did the officers open fire? Dallas Police wouldn't talk to us, but the attorney for the officers did.

KAYE (on camera): Was there any other option other than deadly force in this case?

[12:29:55] CHRIS LIVINGSTON, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSED OFFICERS: No, there's not, because this is a deadly force encounter. And what they -- when you respond to lethal force, you respond to that with lethal force. A Taser is a less lethal item.

KAYE: Soon after the shooting, the officers signed affidavits about what happened. Both say Jason Harrison lunged at them.