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CNN TONIGHT

Robert Durst Charged with Murder; SAE House Mom Singing the N- Word; A Debate of the N-Word. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired March 16, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The murder trial of Aaron Hernandez is set to resume tomorrow, but we have got breaking news on another true crime story.

<22:00:07> This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Robert Durst charged with murder in L.A. after a hot mike moment catches the millionaire real estate heir apparently confessing to three brutal murders but Durst has managed to beat the odds before in a murder trial. Can he do it again?

I'm going to talk to the lead investigator on the case who says Durst, quote, "cannot tell the truth."

Plus, the house mom and the racist rant. My exclusive with Trinidad James, the man behind this song.

And if you're shocked or surprised that we didn't bleep that, it is for a very good reason. Tonight we're going to talk about what you can say, what you can't say, and who gets to decide.

Make sure you tune in. It's going to be an interesting conversation.

We've got a lot to talk about tonight but I want to begin with the millionaire and the murders.

Kyung Lah has the latest on the case against Robert Durst.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Robert Durst in his mugshot in New Orleans, an image three families have waited years, decades to see.

The millionaire heir was nabbed in the lobby of a Marriott, pacing back and forth, carrying a 38 revolver, staying under a false name with a fake driver's license. A law enforcement official says it appears Durst was preparing to flee to Cuba.

(On camera): Are the walls coming in on Robert Durst?

JIM MCCORMACK, KATHY MCCORMACK'S BROTHER: I would think so.

LAH (voice-over): Jim McCormack is the brother of Kathy McCormack, Robert Durst's first wife. Jim McCormack says her sister wrote in her journal that she feared her husband, that he abused her. She was planning to divorce him.

January, 1982, they have a fight, and she vanishes. Durst takes four days to report her missing to now retired NYPD homicide detective, Mike Struk. Struk never nails his prime suspect.

MIKE STRUK, FORMER NYPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: It keeps coming back to the fact that we never found her body. We never -- had a crime scene.

LAH (on camera): No evidence.

STRUK: No evidence, no crime scene.

LAH (voice-over): The case grows cold until 2000 when investigators re-open it. This time, the millionaire flees New York to this rundown apartment in Galveston Texas, hiding out, cross-dressing and posing a mute woman. For months he's speaking to virtually no one except this woman, Susan Berman. New York investigators decide to interview her, but before she could be questioned, around Christmas, 2000, someone shoots Berman execution-style in her Beverly Hills home.

The killer sends police this anonymous handwritten note obtained and shown in the HBO docu-series "The Jinx." The note lists Berman's address and one word -- cadaver.

(On camera): When she died, what did you think?

MCCORMACK: In my heart, I said Bobby is eliminating the witnesses, and people who have knowledge of Kathy's passing.

LAH (voice-over): In "The Jinx," a new stunning revelation by the stepson of Susan Berman. In a storage box, the stepson comes across a letter Durst sent to Berman shortly before she died. Durst's handwriting, the killer's note to police, they bear remarkable similarities, down to the misspelling of Beverly.

In the final episode of "The Jinx," Robert Durst is presented with a close match between his handwriting and the killer's. On camera, he appears unfazed, he then walks away to the rest room, his mike still on. The camera records as he talks to himself.

ROBERT DURST, REAL ESTATE HEIR: There it is. You're caught. What the hell did I do? Killed them all, of course.

LAH: Durst's attorney pledged his client will be vindicated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bob Durst didn't kill Susan Berman. He's ready to end all the rumor and speculation and have a trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: He waives extradition because he wants to come here as quickly as possible, Don. But now that he's facing gun charges and drug charges in New Orleans, that could slow down extradition -- Don. LEMON: I want to ask you about Galveston, Texas, because he admits

that he killed a neighbor in Galveston while he was hiding out. He's put on trial.

How did he dodge that murder conviction?

LAH: Yes, it's really an unusual case. He was living in Galveston, and then his neighbor disappears, Morris Black. Well, Black's body parts began washing ashore in Galveston Bay, but the head didn't wash ashore. Now he did get pinched for that crime, but he said that -- Durst said that he had killed Black in self-defense. Because the head didn't reappear, because the head contained the bullets, the jury bought the self-defense claim that Durst made and he was acquitted, even though he admits he chopped up the body.

LEMON: How does that happen?

Thank you very much, Kyung Lah. Appreciate it.

<22:05:01> I want to bring in Detective Cody Cazalas, the lead investigator in the Morris Black case in Galveston.

That's crazy. How did that happen? Tell us about your case in Galveston concerning Durst.

DET. CODY CAZALAS, GALVESTON SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: Well, thank you for having me. We thought it was a very good investigation, very good case, very solid case.

When you spend $2 million on a defense, you get a $2 million defense team. And hats off to them, but as this documentary shows, they all but admit they made up these stories, even the defense team said yes, we made up these stories, we made the then District Attorney Jeanine Pirro into this mythical person, a bad person, you know, the big bad wolf, and you know, they ran with it.

Basically admitting, you know, that they lied, that Durst was scared to fly into New York because he was scared of her, which was all lies. And parts of their defense team even admitted such. But they were able to convince that jury that the only thing they were supposed to look at is exactly what happened at the time Morris was killed. Anything after that, like the cutting up of the body and the disposing of the body parts, that was for another jury.

And I believe that was wrong. I think the jury had to look at everything. But they chose to look at just part of the case and not all of it.

LEMON: So you think, number one, he out-moneyed you. If you had that much money you think you can buy better defense than most people?

CAZALAS: Unfortunately, I've come to believe that there's two sets of laws in this country. Those that people have money and those the people that don't. And I think that when you -- like I said when you have a --

LEMON: Explain that. Explain that. Why is that?

CAZALAS: I think that when you have a $2 million defense team, you get a better defense than if it's a public defender defending you. And while that may not be fair, or it may be fair, who knows, I just don't think that -- a lot of times what happens in our courtrooms today in society, that's not what the courtrooms were designed for. Our courtrooms were designed that when that case is over with, justice was served.

In this case, I don't believe, and the vast majority of this country does not believe that justice was served in that.

LEMON: When you watched "The Jinx," and you watched it.

CAZALAS: Yes.

LEMON: Did you go, got him, finally? What did you think?

CAZALAS: When I saw the ending and -- not only just the ending, but the whole -- he tells a whole bunch of lies in it. At the end of it, I felt vindicated. I felt like -- that he -- a large weight had been lifted off my shoulders, because I felt all along -- and I still believe to this day in my heart, he's responsible for the death of three people.

I'm hoping that Los Angeles puts a great case together. The district attorney there has a great reputation. But they're going to be -- you can bet that if he had $2 million to spend in Galveston in 2003, he's going to have a $4,000 defense team this time around. So he's going to -- they're going to be facing the best of the best.

LEMON: So during that the time, when we're talking about Susan Berman, when she was killed in California, they -- he was in California, but they just couldn't place him in Los Angeles, right?

CAZALAS: That's correct. The investigators for Los Angeles even said, you know, we can put him in California. I just can't put him in L.A. That's prior to the -- being able to trace him back to the "cadaver" letter.

LEMON: OK, so we've got -- we've got his wife in Westchester County here in New York, Kathleen. We've got Susan Berman in California, and then we have Morris Black, which was in Galveston, Texas.

CAZALAS: Correct.

LEMON: Which is the one that he got off for. In three different states that he was able to elude authorities.

Can you take us back to Galveston. A man who has millions. You've been talking about how much money he has to buy a defense. You said $2 million. He has more money now, by the way. We'll talk about that. But why was he living in a $300 apartment?

CAZALAS: It is my belief that when new evidence came into Westchester County and the district attorney, Jeanine Pirro at the time, re-opened that investigation because of a tip, he told -- Bob told his sister Wendy, I'm going to go underground.

I think at that point, he started going around setting up safe houses like he did in Galveston. He also did the same thing in New Orleans, dressed up as a mute female --

LEMON: He said he was a family member like a sister --

(CROSSTALK)

CAZALAS: Yes, like he told his sister that he's going to go -- actually he posed as Dorothy Ciner in Galveston. That was a girl that he went to high school with. And in New Orleans, he posed, I believe, as Dixie Wynn, another female from his past.

LEMON: OK.

CAZALAS: But I think what happened was, he went around setting up these safe houses in the event that New York was to find her and indict him or bring charges against him, he'd have safe houses to jump to. He also set up bank accounts in bogus names and stuff like that.

<22:10:01> LEMON: I should have played this earlier, but I want to play it now. OK. This is the verdict. This is the verdict in your case.

CAZALAS: Yes, sir.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The verdict of the jury is such. We the jury find the defendant Robert Durst, not guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What was going through your head then?

CAZALAS: Shock and disbelief. But if you look at that clip, he is the most surprised person in that courtroom. He even asked his attorney --

LEMON: Is that why you were smiling?

CAZALAS: Well, to watch his -- to watch his demeanor, he fully expected to be found guilty. Even he did, and he asked his attorney, did they say, "not guilty"?

LEMON: Yes.

CAZALAS: So he's known all along what he has done.

LEMON: Do you think he knew he was miked when he went into that bathroom?

CAZALAS: I think without a doubt he knew the mike was there. Now whether he -- you know, some want to say, he wants to get caught or something like this, I don't know. Who knows what goes on exactly in Bob's mind. But I do know that every time -- this -- Andrew Jarecki and Marc Smerling did a fabulous job putting this together.

Every time that they interviewed him, because it was several interviews, the mike was explained to him. He signed a release explaining it in front of his lawyer, with his lawyer present. The mike has a light on it to show that it's hot.

I think that when he was presented those two envelopes, and the writing, it shook him up.

LEMON: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

CAZALAS: You can tell it shook him up.

LEMON: We're going to talk about that other evidence -- we'll talk about in our next segment.

CAZALAS: OK.

LEMON: But you're -- you mentioned Andrew Jarecki here. And basically he was on -- Andrew was on television this morning and he said, you know, they talked to their legal advisers about what to do as a filmmaker. He said that they had more leeway often than investigators or police officers. Is he correct in that?

CAZALAS: To a -- yes. Because sometimes when -- as a police officer, I'm talking to somebody, if they're in custody, if they revoke their rights, at any time, they can say, I want to talk to a lawyer. So you're limited to what they say. Now this was a voluntary interview that he wanted to have, that he searched out Andrew Jarecki to do this, even against his lawyer's advice. So --

LEMON: And you don't any lawyer saying -- he might have but saying, don't answer that question, don't, you know.

CAZALAS: Right.

LEMON: My client doesn't have to talk about that.

CAZALAS: Correct.

LEMON: He's just doing an interview.

CAZALAS: Right. So in that respect, Andrew had a lot more leeway.

LEMON: Things that are not admissible in court, you can talk about in an interview, which may lead to something else.

CAZALAS: Well, as long as he's there voluntary. If I'm talking to someone voluntary, even if he's a suspect, as long as it's voluntary and he's free to leave?

LEMON: Yes.

CAZALAS: It's an open conversation. But once you restrict their ability to leave, get up and leave, then it's not an interview, it's an interrogation. And the rules completely change.

LEMON: We'll see what happens. Thank you.

CAZALAS: Thank you.

LEMON: Detective Cody Cazalas.

CAZALAS: Thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate it.

We've got a lot more on the Robert Durst case, including the discovery of a key piece of evidence. We talked a little bit about here.

Plus, it is a word that's used millions of times every single day, but some people believe nobody should ever use the N word. We're going to debate that. What you can and cannot say.

Also on a wing and a prayer. The prosperity preacher who asked his flock to buy him a very expensive, multi, multi, multi, multi, multimillion dollar plane.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

<22:17:12> LEMON: A suspect has been arrested in the shooting of two police officers in Ferguson last week. Well, police say that Jeffrey Williams, here he is, admits that he fired the shots but claims he wasn't targeting the officers.

We're going to get into that in just a few minutes. But first, I want to talk about Robert Durst, now charged with murder.

Jeffrey Toobin is here. He's CNN senior legal analyst. Mark O'Mara is here as well, legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. Jeff Roorda of the St. Louis Police Association joining us with his expertise as well.

Jeffrey Toobin, Robert Durst.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: What's up?

LEMON: He sought out this documentary and these documentary producers to be interviewed. Why on earth would he do that? Is this ego? Why would he do that?

TOOBIN: Because he's nuts. I mean, this is a guy who is nuts. I mean, he was caught urinating in a drug store recently. He is a crazy person who is also, it certainly appears, deeply, deeply evil. And people who are crazy and evil do unpredictable things. Fortunately, he did something that will lead, finally, to his being locked up for the rest of his life.

LEMON: And crazy like a fox. You said he's nuts. Maybe he's crazy like a fox because he's gotten away, it appears, with at least three murders.

I want to play the bit of audio from the bathroom that the producers of the doc discovered just a few months ago. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DURST: What the hell did I do? Killed them all, of course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Mark O'Mara, he says, I killed them all. Is this going to be admissible in court? Is a jury ever going to hear those words in a courtroom?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Actually I think they probably will because it is a voluntary statement by him. There's a slight question about expectation of privacy. But I don't think in a basically public rest room, when he knew he had a mike on him. Normally those statements -- those are the ones that are made to law enforcement that are susceptible to suppression. But no, I think a jury is going to see this one.

LEMON: I want -- Jeff Roorda, how is it that, in all of these years of investigating, that these -- this group of documentarians were able to discover this and other evidence, and police officers, investigators, weren't?

JEFF ROORDA, ST. LOUIS POLICE ASSOCIATION: Well, I guess that is sort of the $64,000 question. I mean, you know, this is a guy who's been the focus of extensive criminal investigations of a very serious nature and how some of this is just now surfacing is -- I guess falls under the category of truth is stranger than fiction.

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about this because this --

TOOBIN: Well, it's not --

LEMON: Go ahead.

<22:20:00> TOOBIN: It's not just that. Wait a second. There is also a question of competence here. Andrew Jarecki, who is the brilliant, brilliant producer and director of this series, did a hell of a better job researching this case than the detectives in New York and Los Angeles whose job it was to research this case.

I mean, this is a matter of competence. I mean, this was a botched pair of investigations. Texas, at least they brought charges. Perhaps they didn't try the best case in the world, but they -- at least they made a case to a jury.

In New York and Los Angeles, they didn't even make the case. And I think that speaks very ill of the people who were doing the investigation.

LEMON: The detective was just talking about it. He didn't mention the police department investigations, or at least, you know, whether or not they were -- the competence of the police department. But what he did say in court that they were basically out-moneyed. You can -- if you have millions of dollars, you can get the best defense and a better defense than a public prosecutor or a public defender can get you.

But this is -- this is what we're talking about. It was a dramatic moment in the series. We found out that the producers unearth what appears to be a key piece of evidence which is a letter that Robert Durst wrote, this is to Susan Berman, right, this was his friend, and then she ends up dead in California. That was his publicist before.

And you can see that Beverly is misspelled on the letter, matching another envelope that was anonymously sent to police. They got it back in 2000, telling them where her body was.

So why did they take so long? Why didn't police in California, why weren't they able to uncover these letters?

O'MARA: Well, the easy answer is that --

TOOBIN: Because they didn't do a good job.

(LAUGHTER)

O'MARA: Yes, they really didn't. I mean, it was a little bit coincidental that Berman's son came up with a plastic box of information and lo and behold there's that letter. But to, you know, echo what Jeff said, maybe law enforcement should have reached out to family members to see if that type of evidence existed because they would have found it 15 years ago and I think that piece was evidence which will probably end up convicting him now in the California case, may well have done the same 15 years ago.

LEMON: Here's how he reacted to that letter. Look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DURST: There it is. You're caught.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So how damning is this, Jeffrey Toobin?

TOOBIN: Totally, totally damning. He acknowledges in the interview that the person who wrote the cadaver letter was the killer and he acknowledges that he wrote the other letter. So if you believe that the handwriting is consistent, then he is acknowledging his own guilt.

If I can just make one point, though. You know, one objection I had to the documentary is that the handwriting expert says only one person could have written both of these samples. I think it's important for people to recognize that handwriting analysis is not an exact science. It's not like DNA. And I think, you know, casually throwing around scientific terms like, you know, certainty, is really a mistake.

Sure, it seems like the same person wrote these two letters, but we shouldn't think that handwriting analysis is some kind of -- some kind of perfect science because it's not.

LEMON: Jeff Roorda, we have you here and I want to talk about this. There's been an arrest in the shooting of two officers in Ferguson last week.

What can you tell us about Jeffrey Williams, the man accused of doing it, arrested for it?

ROORDA: Well, you know, the entire law enforcement community here is happy to see a dangerous gunman behind jail -- behind bars where he belongs. This is a pretty strong case, along with his confession, where he sort of, I guess, vacillates a little bit and says, I wasn't shooting at the cops. I was shooting at somebody in the crowd I had a beef with.

You know, they recovered the gun under his dominion and control. You know, they've got some witnesses that led them to him. I think it's a really strong case and I'd like to just point out this malarkey about him not being a protester. The guy is at the protest. He's claiming to shoot at somebody at the protest because he knew they were there, as was he, and I just don't buy this argument that he's not a protester.

LEMON: And there are alleged pictures, photos, going around showing him at the protest. Those have not been vetted by CNN. But law enforcement looking into those, correct?

ROORDA: Yes. I've seen him and I'm confident that he's been at other protests.

LEMON: Thank you very much. Jeff, Jeff and Mark, appreciate it.

The N word, used in music and movies, including this song by Trinidad James. That SAE fraternity house mom says she was just repeating the lyrics.

Is it OK for a little old white lady to use the word that most black rappers use? We're going to debate it. Rapper Trinidad James is here live next.

22:24:56

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. Here we go, everyone. People across the country arguing about the N word after a video of that racist fraternity chant went viral last week, getting two students kicked out of the University of Oklahoma and a fraternity banned from campus.

The N word is of course extremely offensive to a whole lot of people, maybe you are one of them. So I want to warn you now, that you're going to hear that word several times tonight. Because in order to have an honest conversation about words and what they mean, we have to actually say the word, we have to actually say what we mean.

Here's CNN's Dan Simon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What the hell you think you doing, boy? Get that nigger out of here.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is widely considered the most offensive word in the English language, but we hear it in movies, a lot in "Django Unchained."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You and your nigger come out right now with your hands over your head and I mean right now.

SIMON: It's a staple in rap music. Jay-Z's lyrics filled with it.

And too often it's heard in real life.

Comedian Chris Rock framing the issue this way.

<22:30:00> CHRIS ROCK, COMEDIAN: Whenever the word nigger is spoken, it is always followed by the same question. Can white people say nigger? And the correct answer is not really.

SIMON: But should the N-word ever be spoken at all? Is there ever an OK context?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEAUTON GILBOW, HOUSE MOTHER, SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON AT UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA: N-word, n-word, n-word, n-word, n-word, n-word, n-word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: Like the SAE Fraternity house mom who says she was singing along to a rap song called, All Gold Everything by Trinidad James.

PROFESSOR IAN HANEY LOPEZ, BERKELEY LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA: It still deeply problematic. She's using the term, and at the same time, likely drawing on ugly racial stereotypes.

SIMON: UC Berkeley Law professor Ian Haney Lopez is an expert on race relations, and says, using the N-word and even the most casual circumstances can be extremely hurtful.

LOPEZ: It sums up a basic assault on the humanity of African- Americans, and so to casually ban it about, wow.

SIMON: But some say the focus should be on trying to remove the stigma and hate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY-Z, RAPPER: You know, we turned a word that was very ugly and hurtful into a term of endearment. When said this --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: Jay-Z telling Oprah in 2009 why he and fellow artists feel comfortable with using the N-word in their music.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY-Z: Pretty much took the power out of the word. Because, if we just start removing words from the dictionary, just make up another word the next day. So --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: Oprah could not have disagreed more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: I think about black men who were lynched and that's the last word they heard, and so that, that comes from my generation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: And the debate has another new wrinkle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRENCE HOWARD, ACTOR: I started selling drugs when I was 9-years-old in Philadelphia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: Terrence Howard, the star of the new fox hit Empire is reportedly upset that writers have excluded the N-word from the show. "Why is TV showing something different from the reality of the world?" He told Entertainment Weekly. "Why is there a thing called censorship, that stop people from hearing everyday talk?"

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: There will never be a n-word at SAE. There will never be a n- word at SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but they'll never sign with me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: For now, what was obviously, meant to be a private chant on that Oklahoma bus of course had gone public. Which raises the question, how many others are doing the same thing? Using the N-word in a hateful way, behind closed doors when the cameras aren't rolling? Dan Simon, CNN, San Francisco.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT ANCHOR: Alright, here we go. You saw that Sigma Alpha Epsilon house mom singing along to Trinidad James song, All God Everything, and Trinidad James joins me now, exclusively.

TRINIDAD JAMES, MUSICAL ARTIST: Hey, Don.

LEMON: See you look good, I like it. I like it.

JAMES: How you doing Sir? LEMON: I'm great. I want to play this for you.

JAMES: Sure.

LEMON: This is Beauton Gilbow. Beauton Gilbow, she is the house mother of SAE and she is singing part of your song, which causes -- here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEAUTON GILBOW, HOUSE MOTHER, SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON AT UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA: N-word, n-word, n-word, n-word, n-word, n-word, n-word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So what do you think when you see that?

JAMES: I mean, I honestly think that somebody's trying to be sarcastic and be a joke. Play a joke on this old lady, because she looks old and she looks like she's drunk per se, you know and I'm -- that's, I've seen that actually two years ago when it came out. And I didn't say anything about it because -- life is just so much bigger than that. Life is so much bigger than that. I'd really -- it's very hard, it's a very rock and a hard place, and like a catch 22 types of situation, when it comes to dealing with racism and that particular word, and when it comes to any racism in general.

LEMON: You said it's a catch 22 so, someone like her, a white lady who said she is repeating the lyrics of your song, and I debated all weekend, when I told people you were coming on, alright, let me talk to you about this. Should she be allowed -- first of all, do you think she's racist?

JAMES: Yes.

LEMON: Or can you judge from that short clip?

JAMES: I think that she -- I think that she comes from racism. She's 79-years-old. 79 years ago, whatever year that is, she has seen tons and tons and tons of racist acts.

LEMON: From that --

JAMES: I mean, just going of her age and seeing that right there, I don't think that when she was doing that, she was doing it to be a protester or anything. But, it tickled her, because she knows where she came from. And you know that's how I feel about that.

LEMON: Should she be allowed to say that word?

JAMES: Should she be allowed to say? -- Yeah. I feel that --

LEMON: Should everyone, white people, black people, all be allowed to say that word?

JAMES: I think that every race, it's always about how you're saying it. That's what life is about. I'm focused on the future, I'm focus on the --

LEMON: I'm asking you because, initial, people said that you defended her, right?

JAMES: I didn't. I didn't defend her. It's just some general. I'm not -- I'm way more focused on those students on the bus. That's what I'm focused on.

LEMON: That was way more egregious, because --

JAMES: That hurt. That hurt.

LEMON: But if she -- if she singing -- let's get to this, if someone regardless of their ethnicity...

JAMES: Right.

LEMON: Is singing a song that has that word in it, should they be allowed to do that?

<22:34:58> JAMES: Well, Don, what I want to ask the world, and what I want to ask all the rappers that we're been doing this forever. This in general, when you go to a show and you're performing your songs, and you're sold out. You know like shouts out to big Sean, he just sold a great album. You got Kendrick Lamar album just dropped last night, it's great. The first opening line on Kendrick Lamar's new album is, every n-word is a star. That's the first thing.

LEMON: Or n-word in pair (ph). N-word --

JAMES: Some of the biggest songs ever, use it. So when you go to your show and you're performing, I've never -- me personally, I've never seen an artist stop the show like -- you guys can't use this word. So it's just in general, to get to the nitty-gritty of the bottom of this, if we have a problem with the word and it's going to continue to cause things, we should eliminate the word, period, because if we're going to use the word, then people are going to use the word.

LEMON: I want to play your song...

JAMES: Sure.

LEMON: Right? And let's to that and then we'll talk about -- I think the genie is out of the bottle, but we'll talk about it. Here's your song.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES: Gold in my watch, don't believe just watch. N-word, n-word, n- word, don't believe me just watch. Don't believe just watch. N-word, n-word, n-word, don't believe just watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES: How does that make you feel, Don? Like, when I did that song two years ago, I wasn't trying to be the -- LEMON: Subversive.

JAMES: You know what's in the person to use for like racist acts, to use this song. You know, I wasn't, I -- not at all, like I love everyone. Like I preach love and if you really know me, I have all type of friends, Colombian, Asian, it doesn't matter I have no problem with no race, I love everybody and I treat everybody respectfully. I had never how it was --

LEMON: But how do you feel when you're looking at that? When you're hearing this?

JAMES: When I'm looking at my own songs?

LEMON: Yeah, When you -- I mean, when you're hearing that?

JAMES: I mean it is art. I mean, it is art.

LEMON: OK. You -- this is when you asked me how I feel.

JAMES: Yes.

LEMON: I feel you get it, right?

JAMES: OK.

LEMON: Sometimes I feel like you're a character.

JAMES: OK.

LEMON: Right? Doing -- because, you don't dress like that all the time, right?

JAMES: Correct, sir.

LEMON: You're putting on a character and you realize that. People at home don't always realize that. I don't think that the word should be ban. I don't want to ban anything.

JAMES: Right.

LEMON: But I also think that this -- that we bastardized the word or fetishize (ph) the word way too much and I feel like as African- Americans. We've given -- people think you're taking back power, I think we've given the power away from that word because, how do you get mad at someone. You have to every time someone says it, whichever way you have to debate about how they said it. I just don't think we should use it so much.

JAMES: Correct.

LEMON: We should be more careful about when and how we use it.

JAMES: I'm not -- I'm not upset with that because, in general, I feel this when you take so much time, I'm on CNN right now.

LEMON: Right.

JAMES: Trinidad James, I am proud born to be from Trinidad. I love being from Trinidad, I am a proud Trinidad. And honestly, we don't teach racism in Trinidad. We don't. We don't -- I don't disregard racism here in America, I grew up and love America, it's great and I understand it's a part of the culture. But I honestly feel that this conversation right now is for the youth and the future, because those are the people who I want to help them to realize that man, you shouldn't think like that. Like those kids on the bus. I don't care about that old lady, because she's an old lady.

LEMON: Yeah.

JAMES: I know old black women who say (inaudible).

LEMON: I feel you. I know all black women who sing that song. If they are singing your song, they are gonna say the word.

JAMES: And, you know, it was like...

LEMON: Yeah.

JAMES: It is not -- whatever. You know, like that's -- that you can't tell old people what to do. But the youth, the youth, what I care about the most. I honestly feel that I need them to understand that it's a way that you need to fair and treat each other and get that racist stigma out of your head. It's like a chip that you get put in your back when you're a kid. In social studies class, it says great.

LEMON: Yeah.

JAMES: Right.

LEMON: We're not done. And we were not done. Because --

JAMES: Alright.

LEMON: Don't go anywhere. Do you guys want me to read this? Or we're just going to come right back. We're going to talk -- we'll be right back.

<22:38:45> (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: N-word means different things to different people. For many it's all about the evil of slaveries and (inaudible) for others, it is a regular part of hip-hop and pop culture. Here to debate, use of the N-word is CNN Political Commentator Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill, and Trinidad James...

JAMES: Hey, hey, hey.

LEMON: Is back with us.

JAMES: I'm still here.

LEMON: Marc, I'll get you guys in first. But I want -- you know, you realize what you're here on CNN and you've done interviews. You know people just read headlines...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: They will take you out of context and that will stick with you.

JAMES: Definitely.

LEMON: Do you understand that?

JAMES: Definitely. And that's the whole point of us getting a chance to talk. Because, as least -- at least we want to have as many people as we have bashing us -- you too, because people take what you said in the context...

LEMON: Yeah.

JAMES: In the headlines also. Or whatever, that's why we talk about it, and we explain to people what we meant and what we're trying to get across.

LEMON: It use there was a headline that says, you defend -- headline that said, I defend her as well, I didn't defend her, I've said there is what --

JAMES: I'm not defending her.

LEMON: It's context.

JAMES: Yes, it's like, I'm not focused on her.

LEMON: OK.

JAMES: I'm focused on the students. Think you've hurt.

LEMON: You come here and be my co-anchor?

JAMES: Anytime.

LEMOM: Alright. So what do you guys think, Marc? What do you think of --

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that -- I think it's a great interview. I was glad to hear Trinidad explain himself, because as you said headlines often distort what people say and what people mean. And I'm always fascinated about they have many bird (ph) and they pressure people for all our rap artists to police their language. No ask Tarantino to re-imagine the scene at Pulp Fiction, where he himself uses the word, the N-word repeatedly and probably rigorously (ph) just like in Dyango. I think it's represented of extra burden for them and also think it's fascinating...

LEMON: And he has got into criticized.

HIL: To the white? (ph)

LEMON: He has got into criticized for that. Marc. So -- HILL: But, none of -- there are some people who are now saying they're critical of him using it, they're not critical of the word being used in the movies per se. Whereas, with rappers they're saying, rappers just shouldn't use the rap music, it shouldn't have the N-word in it, or TV shows like Empire, just shouldn't have the N-word in it. And what I'm saying is, is that perhaps, that's a conversation that black people will gonna have internal (ph). What I find it fascinating is often times the White people are trying to legislate the N-word for black people saying, none of your people should use it. It's like, we're not. You know, that's not...

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMNETATOR: But Marc --

HILL: Your call to make.

FERGUSON: It is not -- Marc, the question comes down to this, do we want the N-word being used out in society, or do we want to stop the N-word which has become so as it is, racially divisive. And I'll be raw candid with you. I mean, Trinidad, I think you know --

HILL: Did you just say the N-word is somewhat racially divisive?

<22:44:59> FERGUSON: No, no, I'm saying, right now is the proof of it. Look at all of this and everything that's gone on and we all condemn it when it's said, but then you want to keep the word alive. And Trinidad, I'll be honest with you, I think you know that we should probably get rid of the N-word, but in reality, I think many rappers are afraid that they'll lose out on money and sales in street credit...

JAMES: Oh. No, Ben...

FERGUSON: If they don't stop using the word.

JAMES: Ben.

LEMON: Go ahead.

JAMES: Ben. No, no, no sir.

HILL: Street credit.

JAMES: First of all, how you guys doing, Marc and Ben? Welcome to the conversation.

FERGUSON: Good.

HILL: Good to see you, bro.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Go ahead.

JAMES: Yeah, I'm here. So --

LEMON: Go ahead. So what do you think about what he said? JAMES: Ben, that is definitely had nothing to do with it. We -- we are

not going to take it --

FERGUSON: Then why would you keep using it though? I mean...

JAMES: We use --

FERGUSON: Why not play...

JAMES: We use the word...

FERGUSON: When you not gonna use it?

JAMES: At the end of that day, we use the word because, that's how we came up. We came up using the word like people came up using the word in the wrong way. We came up using the word as, how you doing, my n- word? And when somebody says my n-word, that means that bro, you're my friend. I will call you Ben, my n-word. And when I call you that, you do not feel that I hate you.

LEMON: But what if Ben said to you --

JAMES: It's love.

FERGSUON: I'm sure that.

LEMON: What if Ben said to you...

FERGUSON: If I said to you?

LEMON: Trinidad, what if Ben said to you, Trinidad, what's up, my n- word? What would you think?

JAMES: Ben, what I would tell you, if I honestly felt that you are my n-word? Then you are my n-word, Ben.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You don't understand like Ben --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Right now.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Go ahead, Ben.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: If I use the N-word, it could quite possibly and honestly, probably should, cause me my career. And I don't understand why, when we know how divisive this word is, why we would not have...

LEMON: Can I respond to that?

FERGUSON: People like you, Trinidad -- you are a community, your people would look up to you, young people look up to you...

JAMES: Yes.

FERGUSON: And you're rapping about the word and making money on it, and they think they should be rapping the word and saying the word as well --

JAMES: Well, I have to say Ben in a second (ph).

LEMON: Can I --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hold on for one second, Marc. You can get enough to him. Let Trinidad respond.

JAMES: Ben, you see, you keep -- you are giving the word too much power. I'm making money off --

FERGUSON: I'm not using it. You are...

JAMES: I am making money off of doing music and being creative, sir. I'm not making money just because I use the N-word? Nobody goes to buy an album because it's full of the N-word?

FEGRUSON: Trinidad...

JAMES: No, sir.

FERGUSON: You wouldn't be on this show tonight if it wasn't for using the N-word in your rap music...

LEMON: Go ahead.

FERGUSON: Let's be honest.

HILL: No, no, no.

LEMON: Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: That --

LEMON: Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: First of all, he wouldn't be on the show if a white woman hadn't said the N-word on a tape. So that's not fair, we're putting the burden on him.

FERGUSON: Which was calling his music.

HILL: No, let me finish, Ben. First, white people were saying n-word before Trinidad James was born. And to sit here and say, that the N- word has become divisive, is absurd. The N-word is born out of slavery is one of our white supremacy.

FERGUSON: I'm agreeing with you. HILL: No, you're not. Listen...

FERGUSON: Why we would keep the one alive?

HILL: Just listen for them.

LEMON: Listen...

HILL: Just listen for them.

LEMON: Listen, Ben.

HILL: This is the problem. When we start talking about issue about race and racism, sometimes white people need to just listen. Just hear what I'm saying for a minute, Ben. What I'm saying is the N-word isn't divisive, white supremacy is divisive. Slavery was divisive. That's the problem. And maybe, just maybe, it's not white people's position to tell black people who to say. I'm message on that day, going to the street and call him my n-word, you know why? Because he is my n-word, and the difference between Trinidad James and you, is that Trinidad James has to deal with the same oppress of situations. He's gone to war with anti-black racism prevails. He lives in the world where police might shoot him on the street, no matter how much money he has. We share a collective condition known as n-word. White people don't. I'm not saying it should be illegal for white people to use it. I'm saying you shouldn't want to use it, given everything that has happen after 40 years of exploitation and institutional racism.

JAMES: Ben --

(CROSSTALK)

JAMES: Add on to that Ben. Ben, the reason why you wouldn't use the N- word, Ben, is out of respect, correct?

FERGUSON: Yes. I think it's a racially, God-awful word that we should get rid of, because -- and we shouldn't be teaching it to young kids, no matter what their race is, because it is so hurtful and as long as we continue to use it, it is going to continue to hurt people's lives. And we should join together and say, this is a word we can all deal without having around, and it will bring more people together than divide them.

LEMON: OK. Stand by, everybody. If you know someone, a friend, even your enemy, and they're not watching this show, you better call them up, because they need to tune in. And there's more when we come right back.

<22:49:08> (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back with Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill, Trinidad James. OK. So, I live in New York City, which is everybody, lives here, right? Of all different ethnicities. So I see white people going up to each other, or Hispanic people going up and saying, hey, what's up my n- word? Is that OK? Trinidad? JAMES: Man, I feel that anytime that you use -- for me, OK, this is what I'm saying -- this is my stand. This is my stand, Ben. I clearly hear where you're coming from. Marc, we definitely hear where you're coming from. But my stand on everything is that all this racism can be beat with love. Racism can be beat with respect. And for like I said to you, Ben, if I came up to you, or we were partying out one night, after this show, we go partying. I will remember like is somebody said, you know Ben? Or whatever some guys ask me about Ben, I will say you know, Ben, that's my n-word or whatever. I don't mean anything at all bad by that. And I just saved your life.

LEMON: But Ben can get fired pretty much for using that word just because of the color of his skin.

JAMES: And that's why I said that, it is a two-sided thing and that's why I said that my biggest point when it comes to racism and that's why I try to stay out of it, is to overcome that with love and overcome that with respect for people and just watch how you're using words, context, period like, you know.

FERGUSON: And Trinidad, here's my core thing. When you look at where we are in society today --

JAMES: Yes, sir.

FEGRUSON: We can have a conversation now that you just described. But the fact still stands, you use that word, everyone laughs. I use that word, my career is over. And it is an unbelievably, especially, I think among young people, one of the most divisive words they can use in society. It is. I mean, every time someone says it we have massive news about it if it's the wrong color skin.

LEMON: That lead me -- that lead me...

FERGUSON: So why do we not get rid of it?

CROSS

LEMON: Ben, that leads me to my next point. And this is -- maybe I'm just speaking of the way I am. If you call me that word, I'm going to laugh at you, because like you're really stupid, is that all you have? You call me that or you call me some, you know, derogatory word -- you know word about gay people, it does not faze me at all, because you're showing your ignorance once you go to that level.

FERGUSON: I get that. But I also think with there's certain points where you have to look at the word and you have to see how people -- look at what it meant to Oprah for example...

LEMON: But the question is --

FERGUSON: Compare to what it meant to other people, I mean, Oprah said when she hears that word, and we played that clip earlier and she said this is what it means to me. So, I think when you have a word that means so many different things to so many different people, but the mass majority of them are incredible hurtful. Why would we want to keep the word alive?

LEMON: We understand that, but maybe, what I'm trying to get to is, maybe I didn't phrase it properly is, should we just not get so upset about the use of that word and that would help take the power away, Marc Lamont Hill?

<22:54:52> HILL: Well, I think words do have meaning and words have histories and we can't divorce words from their context. That's why it's hard 400 years later for white people to use the N-word and it not be seen still as deeply entrenched in a white supremacist legacy. That's why white people should not use it. Black people however had used the N-word sensibly (ph) in ways that have been different. They have -- the have music for redemptive purposes, that use for ironic purposes --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Irony, right.

HILL: And they also sometimes use it for painful purposes. It's said that Martin Luther King Jr. when he was looking for Andrew Young when he couldn't find him. When Andy finally came back, he said, little n- word, where have you been? We wouldn't accuse Dr. King of hating himself or hating black people, I would think. Context does matters. And I think only in the frame of a white supremacy could we somehow be sitting here, talking about the N-word that is something that's unfair to white people. Which would have Ben, essentially said to you right?

FERGUSON: No, it's not about saying the word...

HILL: And you're saying the word and so --

FERGUSON: I'm not saying what --

HILL: No, you did.

FERGUSON: You haven't heard a word -- no, no. You haven't heard a word I said...

HILL: I have heard what you said.

FERGUSON: I'm saying...

HILL: You did, you did --

FERGUSON: I'm saying that if we have a word Marc, that is this divisive towards different people, it means something different to you than it does to Don, than it does to Oprah, than it does to Trinidad, and to me...

HILL: Then we should decide what we want you to do?

FERGUSON: Why would you want to keep it around?

LEMON: OK. Alright, stand --

HILL: OK. Then why do you think you have the capacity to legislate what black people do?

FERGUSON: I'm not to legislate --

HILL: When Oprah wants to use it...

FERGUSON: I'm saying --

HILL: Essentially, Oprah does not have to use it.

LEMON: I got to go.

FERGUSON: I'm saying --

LEMON: I've got to go.

HILL: Oprah does not have to use it.

LEMON: I've got to go. But I have to -- Trinidad, since we have you here, just quickly, are you still going to use that word in your private life and also within your music?

JAMES: Yes, sir.

LEMON: Alright.

JAMES: I'm going to use the word. Yes, sir. Because it is --

HILL: Just watch.

JAMES: Hey, hey, hey.

LEMON: Thank you, guys, and all of you are my -- with the, a.

HILL: You can do it, Don. Come on Don, you can do it.

LEMON: N-I-G-G-A. Alright, oh, so we're out of here. Thank you, guys. That's it for us, I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. AC 360 starts right now.

(LAUGHTER)

<22:56:41> (COMMERCIAL BREAK)