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CNN TONIGHT

Manhunt for At-Large Missouri Shooters; Addressing Rampant Racism in Ferguson

Aired March 12, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Breaking news, tension in Ferguson, Missouri, after two police officers are shot and wounded. The brazen crime caught on video.

Unbelievable. In just a few moments, I'm going to talk to the eyewitnesses who captured the pandemonium on video.

So who fired those shots?

Well, tonight, investigators may have identified two people and they want to question them in connection with the shooting. One may have pulled the trigger. Police called the shootings an ambush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: Fortunately with both officers, we don't have any remarkable long-term injuries. So we are lucky by God's grace we didn't lose two officers last night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Amazingly both officers were released from the hospital just a few hours after being shot.

The Ferguson Police Department no longer in charge of policing any protests in this city. As of three hours ago those duties transferred to the command of the St. Louis County Police and the Missouri State Highway Patrol.

Also tonight, a call for calm. Members of the clergy holding a vigil just moments ago praying for peace in their fractured community.

There is a whole lot to get to ahead in this hour. CNN has every angle of this story covered for you tonight.

Here with me on the ground in Ferguson, Missouri, are my colleagues, Sara Sidner, Anderson Cooper, Jake Tapper and Jason Carroll.

Sara, I'm going to start with you because it's been a very interesting turn of events. Investigators have identified two people they want to question. What is the latest on that?

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So the two people they want to question, obviously, they think they have some information. Those two people may have had something to do with the shooting. One of whom, an official says, a law enforcement official says, may be the actual shooter, and they're also looking for those who helped that person get away.

So it gives us a little bit information that maybe this is just one person because we were not sure whether there was one, two or how many. It sounds like they've kind of narrowed it down, although we are in the beginning phases of the investigation, to one person and then someone who may helped this person get away.

We also know about the two officers. They have been able to leave the hospital after just 12 hours in the hospital. One shot in the face, just under the eye. The other one shot in the shoulder, a lot of people saying, wow, they were able to leave the hospital. It doesn't mean that they're feeling great, but they are actually able to leave and they are going to be all right.

LEMON: And one interesting thing is that the bullet was still lodged in one of the officer's head. Now will -- will the other -- one of the officers still be able to use his arm? There was some question about that.

SIDNER: There is. And that -- it remains to be seen. And what we heard from a St. Louis County Police Officer Association member, he said basically we don't know yet if these officers will be able to return to their duties as police officers. That only time will tell. We have to see what the injuries are and how they recover from those.

LEMON: We talked about the vigil that the clergy is holding this evening. And as you can hear now, the protesters are gathering back in front of police headquarters.

SIDNER: Yes.

LEMON: As you and I watched all evening, and you were on air all evening, we saw what happened last night. But this appears to be peaceful. These protests happen here almost every evening or on any given evening, and this is not out of the ordinary.

SIDNER: It isn't. I mean, it's not happening every single day outside the police department as it once did, but you're seeing probably about 50 or so people who were there. We saw about 35 or so people who are at the vigil, and more and more people tend to show up as the evening goes on.

LEMON: Yes.

SIDNER: One thing that I know that some of the protesters have been talking to amongst each other is we have to make sure -- last night there was a scuffle between protesters, let's make sure that it's peaceful, let's make sure that we're being respectful. There are two officers -- we do not want to see officers hurt or killed.

LEMON: Or anyone hurt. Yes.

SIDNER: We want to make sure -- or anyone hurt or killed. LEMON: Right.

SIDNER: But we want to make sure that we're being respectful, but also being able to have our voices heard.

LEMON: Yes. And we have our Jake Tapper and Jason Carroll out in the crowd, and we're looking at shots in their camera now.

Again, protesters are starting to gather now in front of the Ferguson, Missouri, Police Department. Also the Ferguson Municipal Court, and just next door, the Ferguson Fire Station. Again this is very initial. It looks like the beginning of a gathering here. Some of these people may have come over from the vigil down the street, that the clergy was holding. So we're going to keep an eye on that.

And as we keep an eye on that, we want to tell you that as police fan out -- thank you very much, by the way, Sara Sidner.

As police fan out, searching for the people or person or persons who pulled -- that trigger, it is an all-out manhunt. Three people were questioned. Many people were questioned in the hours after this investigation. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Did you go down to the protest? Were you down there at all?

LAMONT UNDERWOOD, QUESTIONED BY POLICE: Yes, we were down there. I stayed in the car. She was down there for a second.

LEMON: Yes.

UNDERWOOD: I stayed in the car. After a while, I heard some gunshot. I heard some gunshots, as I'm saying.

MARTEZ LITTLE, QUESTIONED BY POLICE: So by the time we get to the car and take off, somehow they say that we was being followed. That's how they followed us here and got her address.

UNDERWOOD: They think we had something to do with the shooting, Don. We didn't have anything to do with it, you know what I'm saying?

LEMON: Why did they think -- did they explain to you why they thought that?

UNDERWOOD: No. Didn't -- never said none about that. Period at all. They just came, 4:00, and say, we know you in there, we know you in there, come on out with your hands up.

LEMON: How many police officers? How many cars?

UNDERWOOD: I'd say about 30 of them was out there. It was on the roof -- snipers on the roof. It was across the street. It was over there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My neighbor got pictures. My neighbor came over and took pictures of them.

UNDERWOOD: About 30 of them here, man.

IRESHA TURNER, QUESTIONED BY POLICE: He got red beam on my chest, and he's like, please don't shoot me. I'm stuck at this point, I can't move because I'm afraid that he is going to shoot me, I said, like, I'm screaming at the door, like, come out -- sorry. If I come out are you going to shoot me, he like no, just come out.

LEMON: So you went down to the police headquarters?

LITTLE: Yes, sir.

LEMON: They never came to get you?

LITTLE: No.

LEMON: And what happened once you got there?

LITTLE: They got my side of the story. And once they got my side of the story, I'm walking out the door into the main lobby and that's when I bumped into Iresha and Lamont.

LEMON: So what do you think?

LITTLE: I think we were being harassed.

UNDERWOOD: Harassed but there's no reason, you know what I'm saying? Period. I want to know why was I there, period.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They wanted us to the help them do they job.

UNDERWOOD: Why was I locked up?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And again, we want to tell you that protesters have begun to gather in the streets here in Ferguson, Missouri. Again, there are a number of protesters behind us in front of the police department, you can hear them now. They are chanting no justice, no peace. We're going to keep an eye on the entire situation here. And there also the live pictures that you're looking at now.

I want to tell you that police here in Ferguson and even the Attorney General Eric Holder, they flat out called the shootings an ambush, a scene of fear and pandemonium, all captured on video.

In just a moment, I'm going to talk to eyewitnesses, but first, the shooting as it all happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Acknowledgment nine months ago would have kept that from happening.

HEATHER DE MIAN, EYEWITNESS: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). OK. There was just gunfire, and now cops have guns drawn. It is on the hill up there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So that incredible video is Heather De Mian's video, she joins me along with Lawrence Bryant who's a photographer for the "St. Louis America," and Kayla Reed of the Organization for Black Struggles.

Thanks to all of you. I want to get to you, Heather, first. Start with you. That is your video. Describe the scene when you captured that video.

DE MIAN: Well, the protest, it was like just after midnight, and the protests were winding down, and there's maybe like 50 protesters left in this parking lot, and I was at the intersection right -- like right at Tiffin where the gunshots came down from the top of the hill. And my -- I apparently was the only one filming at the time and caught the gunshots on that video.

LEMON: Yes. Well, I'm sure it was frightening for you.

DE MIAN: Yes.

LEMON: How did you manage to stay so calm in that situation?

DE MIAN: I didn't. I kind of -- actually that's why my video is like so erratic, because I was trying to duck down in my chair, because there was nothing to hide behind, there's no cars to duck behind or anything.

LEMON: There -- you could hear someone in the video shouting, he said, acknowledgment nine months ago -- I think it was acknowledging nine months ago might have kept this from happening in that situation. What do you think about? Did you hear that?

DE MIAN: Yes, I heard that. I don't know that -- I don't know that it had -- I don't know that the shooting had nothing to do with the protesters. I don't know -- as far as I know. They haven't caught anybody. And the protesters were here. They were not up at the top of that hill.

LEMON: Right. Yes.

DE MIAN: I captured at lot of comments on my video.

LEMON: Yes.

DE MIAN: So there you go.

LEMON: So, stand by, Heather. I bring in now Kayla and Lawrence.

You heard that Heather brings up a very good point. We still don't know at this point who committed these shootings, who did this shooting, correct?

LAWRENCE BRYANT, EYEWITNESS: Correct.

LEMON: So you guys were in the middle of it. Take us back to what you saw when it happened, what you captured.

KAYLA REED, EYEWITNESS: So I was on the steps of the police department because we were going to bail out four of the people who had been arrested that night. So I was behind the police line. And we were just waiting for someone to unlock the door. So we heard the screeching noise and the pops, so we all ducked for cover.

I immediately heard an officer screaming in pain, and they were escorted behind the SUV that was right in my direct vision, and they laid him on the ground and got him medical attention. Immediately after they called all municipalities and the surrounding areas the cops pulled their guns out, they were taking cover, and they were pointing them in the direction of protesters, and all of the protesters were starting to disperse and there was at lot of fear, a lot of confusion.

LEMON: You don't believe that the shooter was connected to the protesters. Because you say, why at this point would protesters do something like that on the same day that the police chief had resigned and others in the city had been resigning as well?

REED: I mean, absolutely. I think when you think about 250 days of protest, we've been out the actual days when people have been killed and no reactions have ever happened like that. We practice non- violent civil disobedience, so I think that that was an outside agitator and it's problematic for police departments to always put all those people into one category, and call them protesters. That's not the community that we built.

LEMON: But, Lawrence, you were out shooting for the "St. Louis America," right, so what -- tell us where you were and what you captured.

BRYANT: I was just diagonal from the parking lot, and like you said, I was actually getting ready to leave, to move pictures. And from that I just -- we just heard the pops and the bullets singing, and from there, like I said, I saw one officer go down, then I saw the other officer go down, and that's when I started shooting.

LEMON: What happened after every -- did everyone -- after that when the officers were shot, everyone starts scattering? What was the situation like?

BRYANT: A lot of the protesters I saw scattering. All the police officers, they got down, they got into defense mode. And maybe two or three minutes after that, they proceeded across the street to advance on the street where those bullets came from.

LEMON: So none of you -- none of you saw where the person, where they came from, right? None of you saw where the shots came from?

REED: No, they didn't come from the side that I was standing on.

LEMON: Right. And you were just caught up in it.

REED: No one saw a person. And I mean, everyone dropped down. DE MIAN: Some people saw muzzle flashes at the top of the hill.

LEMON: Yes. Yes. Are you guys worried about violence tonight? Because right before we came on, I thought you meant violence. You said, I don't want to be here, but you -- you want to be out in the crowd with your people protesting, right?

REED: Yes, this is a community that people have built, when you talk about 216 days of being with the same people, you learn them. So when someone says that they are the person that did this, you know that that's not true.

LEMON: Are you worried about violence?

REED: I am always concerned about protester safety. We understand that fighting for our rights in this community sometimes -- escalates the situation but I am not fearful that there will be any violence on our side.

LEMON: But you're not -- you're concerned about safety for everyone, right?

REED: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. Because you don't want any lives to be lost.

REED: Two police officers were shot yesterday so the reality is that the cops are very upset and they're very tense. And all they have to say that they fear for their lives, and use excessive force, that's why we have seven cases in St. Louis right now.

LEMON: Right. Thank you, guys. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate you sharing your video and your pictures with us as well, and your experience.

Breaking news coverage in Ferguson is going to continue here on CNN.

Up next, my colleagues are going to join me, Anderson Cooper and Jake Tapper. They spent so much time in this city since the shootings last August of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson.

We'll be right back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now with breaking news tonight here in Ferguson, where the hunt is on for whoever fired shots that injured two police officers. It is amazing how far away the shooter was estimated to be from the police officers. I walked it earlier today, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: We have gotten ourselves into position to show you what possibly could have happened when we talked about the shots coming from the top of the

hill about 125 yards away from the police department. I just want to show you, this is where we were last time when we were

tear-gassed back in November. At lot of the media was parked out here. If you look over on the other side of this building, this hill comes all the way up from the front of this building where there's a parking lot, and if you go all the way to the back of the building, you could see here, the hill comes up high enough where you could get on top of the building.

They have had this fence off. Just for our viewers, and for you and in "THE SITUATION ROOM," Wolf, I want to just show you 125 yards away, if it did indeed come from this direction, if you look there, the hill comes up on this side as well.

We're going to walk down here from the -- to the police department. This is Tiffin Drive that we're on right here, and then it -- it intersects right here to Florissant Avenue, which is the police department in front of us. Again, if you look at the parking lot here, this is where many people were stationed out last time, where many of the protesters camped out as well.

You can see people here, who are coming, this is where they grabbed their food, they come over here to the subway shop. And again a lot of the media parked out over here. So 125 yards away which is about the size of a football field, plus a quarter. That would have to be, as you have been talking to people, saying it would have to be a professional person or someone who knows what they're doing to get this far, especially with what Jon Belmar from the St. Louis County Police Department said.

The chief there saying that it would take someone, you know, who knew what they were doing to get a shot off this far, and you can see officers were -- lined up in front of the police department here just standing in a line, cordoned off in front of the police department. Protesters in front of them. The police officers behind them.

And then once the shots did ring out, officers took protection, took cover behind the barricades, behind the brick walls here. So 125 yards away, that's pretty far for someone who doesn't really know what they were doing to get off that many shots and to hit two police officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: My colleagues Jake Tapper and Anderson Cooper are with me now.

You guys are -- your shows were on earlier. I know you've been talking to experts. So there are two people that they want to speak to, Anderson. What are you hearing about that?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC 360: Right. As you've reported, I mean, there is a manhunt very vigorously under way. Two people at least that they are interested in talking to. One of whom they believe may have actually pulled the trigger, may have actually been the shooter. But again, these are very early reports. We're going to have to see, obviously, you know, there was an operation earlier. You spoke to some of the people who were -- (CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Reported extensively on that, but that turned out to be a false lead based on -- from the fact that people seemed to have just driven away quickly from the scene. But obviously this is a manhunt which is very active, very much under way.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER": Yes. I was talking to a local politician who said, I think the reward for information leading to the arrest of the attempted cop shooter is up to about $13,000. He thinks people will probably, maybe -- lips would be a little looser when it gets about $20,000 or more, but this is -- not to get preachy about it, but this is one of the advantages of having -- you know, a police force having a good relationship with the local community is information comes in.

LEMON: Right. As I was walking, I mean, that is pretty far. And you're thinking, most people I've been talking to say, the experts say, you've got to have some knowledge of a firearm to know -- to operate and to be able to shoot a police officer, shoot anything that that is that far away.

TAPPER: Yes. Or dumb luck.

LEMON: Yes.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, first of all, if it was a handgun, I mean, that's certainly a great, great distance if in fact that distance is accurate. I mean, if it's a rifle, it's a little bit easier or some sort of adapted handgun with rifling or something that would allow to --

TAPPER: I think there are questions about what exactly was used. The operating theory was that it was a handgun and you heard the police chief say that earlier.

LEMON: Right. Yes.

TAPPER: But my understanding is they still have not recovered either the bullets, one of them still lodged behind the ear of one officer, and the one that went through the shoulder, and then out the back, has not yet been recovered. So they don't know yet, I don't think, what firearm was used.

LEMON: They recovered shell casings at the scene.

TAPPER: Right.

LEMON: But they're not sure if it's actually from that actual shooting.

TAPPER: Right.

LEMON: But I mean, let's talk about the obvious. We were both here -- we were all here, all three of us here in August, then back in November. And now we're here again. It had been peaceful for the most part until last night, very surprising that this would happen, especially on the day that the police chief resigns.

COOPER: Well, it's certainly -- you know, for a lot of the protesters, they are now concerned that it just takes the focus off the Justice Department report, the very critical report by the Department of Justice about policing practices in Ferguson. It remains to be seen what effect this is actually going to have on the protests. I mean, there are a couple of, you know, few protesters here, maybe a few dozen, it's a pretty small crowd tonight.

We'll see if it develops throughout the course of the evening or if people have decided to kind of maybe let things cool off.

LEMON: Yes. And speaking of the Department of Justice, Eric Holder issued a very --

TAPPER: Very strong comments from the attorney general earlier today. He's been criticized of course from protesters -- I mean, sorry, from police for not expressing enough support for them, but he came out with a very strong statement earlier. Let's play that if we can.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: What happened last night was a pure ambush. This was not someone trying to bring healing to Ferguson. This was -- this was a damn punk, punk, who was trying to sow discord in an area that is trying to get its act together, and trying to bring together a community that has been fractured for too long.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He did not mince words, Jake.

TAPPER: No, that's the kind of thing that I think a lot of police officers here would have liked to have heard him, that kind of tone when it came to expressing support for the police earlier.

LEMON: Yes.

COOPER: There was also criticism of him for releasing both Justice Department reports at the same time.

TAPPER: Yes.

COOPER: And, you know, a lot of the people who support the Ferguson Police here, Darren Wilson, feel like Darren Wilson got a raw deal, feel like, you know, perhaps they should have done it on different days, so that more attention was paid to what actually the report said about the shooting of Michael Brown.

TAPPER: Because of course --

LEMON: And one overshadowed the other.

TAPPER: Yes, and because it said basically that Michael Brown, that the whole "hands up, don't shoot thing" wasn't actually accurate.

LEMON: Right.

TAPPER: That's what the DOJ concluded. People here who side with the police and members of the police force think that that was intentionally kind of buried and released at the same time as the DOJ report so people wouldn't pay as much attention to the fact that this narrative was apparently false.

COOPER: And yet even tonight, protesters who came here, and they really just arrived probably about 20 minutes ago right when you started broadcast, again were chanting "hands up, don't shoot."

LEMON: Right.

COOPER: So even though the DOJ report is saying there's no evidence that that actually occurred, that was never said, that certainly is not something the protesters here are giving up.

LEMON: But that has become the narrative around the country for unarmed people being shot.

So thank you, gentlemen, appreciate it.

By the way, Darren Wilson's attorney will join us later on CNN. I'll see you back here live?

COOPER: Yes, at 11:00.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Anderson. Thank you, Jake. Appreciate it.

You know, of all the tension here, in the midst of all the tension here in Ferguson, a call for calm tonight at a prayer vigil. More on our breaking news coverage straight ahead here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are back here in Ferguson with our breaking news now. Investigators searching for two individuals, one of whom may be the shooter of two police officers.

Also tonight, a prayer vigil, a call for calm in this sin city. My colleague Jason Carroll is there at that vigil.

So, Jason, tell us about it.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it just wrapped up, Don. It was a small group of people, but those who came out here definitely had a lot of heart. Clergy from all denominations, people from all walks of life showed up here in this little park here, this quad area to pray for peace. Pray not just for Michael Brown as some of them stood up and said, but also to offer their prayers for both of those officers and some of those here at the Ferguson Police Department.

One member of the clergy telling the small group to pray for the officers who suffered the injustice, pray not only for them, he said, but pray for their families as well.

Then, Don, another one stood up and said, pray until there is, quote, "no more blood in our streets."

At one point as the vigil was going on, I spoke to Pastor Barbara Gayden. She's from Kirkwood, about 20 miles from here, and she said, Don, that she was encouraged to see people coming out, praying for peace, not talking about violence, not talking about shooting, but talking about healing. This is what this community wants to see more.

Then just before, Don, just before the vigil broke up, one of the clergy told the group hug someone and go home. And that's exactly what they did -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Jason Carroll, thank you very much. At tonight's vigil. We'll get back to Jason Carroll in just a little bit.

It's miraculous that both officers not only survived their gunshot wounds, they were both released from the hospital just hours ago.

I'm joined here by Jeff Roorda. He is with the Police Officers Association. The manhunt is still on for whoever -- really tried to kill these two officers, right?

JEFF ROORDA, ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: Right.

LEMON: For whoever tried -- really tried to kill these two officers, right?

ROORDA: Yeah. This is not an errant bullet, but it was an attempted murder, the attempted assassination.

LEMON: You visited both of them?

ROORDA: I --

LEMON: You know -- you know both of them, you visited with the --

ROORDA: I visited with the St. Louis County officer at his home after he was released. I did not get a chance to visit with the other officer, but I am told that they are both at home with their loved ones, trying to cope with what they went through last night.

LEMON: One of them still has a bullet lodged...

ROORDA: Yeah.

LEMON: In his face?

ROORDA: The officer from Webster Groves. The bullet entered under his eye and then lodged down between the muscle and the bone in his jaw, and it is still there. I am not sure if they can be able to remove it. They did not remove it before they sent him home.

LEMON: The St. Louis County officer who was hit in the shoulder, will he have full use of his arm again? ROORDA: When I visited with him he said, he got really good feeling in

his fingers, it was his right hand, his (inaudible) hand. He didn't have any tingling to speak of, and you know, of course, a lot of times it takes a while for that nerve damage to show up, so.

LEMON: You said that there have been death threats. Tell us about the death threats to police officers.

ROORDA: Well, I mean, just go to your local Twitter feed. I mean, we've been on the receiving end of it for seven months. The noise doesn't bother me until the noise is gun fire. You know, I want to make sure your viewers understand that last night was an isolated incident. There have been violent elements of the crowd, that have been shooting a police officers on and off for the last seven months.

LEMON: Was it was or wasn't in?

ROORDA: It was not.

(CROSSTALK)

ROORDA: For two weeks in August, there were shots fired at police officers every night that militarized equipment that was so broadly criticized, saved police lives. Again, in November of the grand jury decision, the chief said that standing right out in front of the building here, he had heard 150 shots. 150 shots, I mean, it is a very volatile and dangerous environment, and there are a lot of people armed with dangerous weapons.

LEMON: I think it is fair to the say, and you wouldn't -- you wouldn't deny that I said, you are very polarizing to -- a very polarizing figure...

ROORDA: Yeah.

LEMON: In the community here. Possibly, one of the most hated guys in the community by some.

ROORDA: Right. That's, that's -- and that is fine to me. To me, there is no tolerance for questioning Michael Brown's status as a folk hero, we know now because of the grand jury investigation of the Department of Justice report, that this hands up, don't shoot myth was just that. And now we're -- we somehow pivoted to this, this new story, that's new narrative that -- it was about traffic tickets, and about e-mails and nobody knew about --

LEMON: But Jeff, there was a part of it. I was here, and that was part of it -- is that the community felt that they were being targeted somewhat. The initial thing you're right. The initial thing was, that Michael Brown shooting. But that was part of it. I have on tape, people telling me those stories back in August.

ROORDA: There is longstanding frustration, not with just with this police department, a lot of the small municipalities in St. Louis County...

LEMON: That's right.

ROORDA: But let's not forget either that none of this, justifies the deadly violence that we saw last night...

LEMON: Absolutely.

ROORDA: And the months before.

LEMON: Absolutely. Absolutely, I think anyone would agree with that. Do you --

ROORDA: But not everyone. We heard some pretty horrible things from -- from some of the folks out here.

LEMON: And people are going to say awful things, and you know, it is terrible, but I think most, you know, people with sense...

ROORDA: Right.

LEMON: Sensible people would agree with that.

ROORDA: I'm losing the faith in the mankind, but I will try to cling to it.

LEMON: I want to ask you, because you mentioned Officer Darren Wilson and I was speaking with my colleagues, Jake Tapper and Anderson Cooper and Anderson mentioned, both of the DOJ reports being released on the same day. One may have canceled of the other one, because Officer Wilson exonerated, completely exonerated. And the other one, you know coming down with 26 recommendations for the police department.

ROORDA: Talk about your all-time cases of burying the lead. I mean the big story here for seven months was that, Darren Wilson gunned down a young black man in cold blood trying to surrender as it happens, that is not what occurred. And the attorney general instead of remarking clearly on what happened here, and setting the record straight, just sort of rushed after the side and moved into this DOJ Report that he describe as damning.

LEMON: I saw you on New Day this morning with my colleague Alisyn Camerota, and I think you said -- I don't know comes in your mouth that, protesters got what they wanted...

ROORDA: Some did, yeah.

LEMON: Are almost got they want, a dead cop.

ROORDA: Right. Right, in the context I was talking about you know, we heard all day yesterday, protesters finally got --

LEMON: That's very in incendiary.

ROORDA: Yes.

LEMON: Don't you think it s a little inflammatory, you know? ROORDA: Well, you know, somebody asked me today, well you can't say

that this is a peaceful protester that shot him. He was peaceful protester until he pulled out a gun and started shooting at the police. So how are we to tell? I mean, what we need to do is so get away from these very dangerous nightly protests here, which is where all of the violence had occurred. The real peaceful protests are out here during the day. We were haven't had any significant violence during the day, give this a rest for these --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I just wanted to ask -- ask the leaders why no curfew, considering at -- you know, all...

ROORDA: Right.

LEMON: All that has happened over the past months.

ROORDA: I think, just because of the fear of, of criticism from, from politicians and the media alike that -- subverting people's constitutional rights.

LEMON: Thank you for your candor (ph).

ROORDA: Right.

LEMON: Appreciated. Jeff Roorda. Coming up, the future Ferguson, should the entire police department be disbanded? We will get into that, next. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are back now live in Ferguson, Missouri. Attorney General Eric Holder is prepared to dismantle the entire Ferguson police department, if they don't go along with certain things. I'm joined now by my guest here, Neil Bruntrager is a -- a Darren Wilson attorney. He is the defense attorney here and also David Klinger, criminal justice professor, a former police officer and author of, Into the Kill Zone. And I'm also back with Jeff Roorda.

So thank you guys for joining me. What are you make of the atmosphere here this evening, considering what happened yesterday?

DAVID KLINGER, AUTHOR, INTO THE KILL ZONE: It appears to be fairly calm compared to last evening. The police are at not line up in the failings (ph) and the protest across the street don't seem to be doing anything other than what they should be doing, which is exercising your freedom speech rights, right?

LEMON: I want to talk -- I've been willing to talk to you about this all day. We've been saying 125 feet away...

KLINGER: Right.

LEMON: You would have to be almost an expert marksman to hit two police officers, one in the head or the face or one in the shoulder, you don't agree?

KLINGER: No. Long story short, the way they were punched up, from what I could tell from the video, it wouldn't be very hard for any halfway decent shot with the pistol to go ahead and stick it out, pull the trigger a few times and get to very lucky hits. As you know, I've done many interviews of police officers around the country who been involved in shootings. And the some of them have been struck by gunfire, a lucky shot, and something that happens periodically.

LEMON: You call it the golden bb, as that was it called.

KLINGER: Golden bb, golden bullet, yeah.

LEMON: Were that --

KLINGER: All that means is -- a bad guy gets lucky. And so, the one of the things that people need to understand about the dynamics of the gun fight is that, people don't always come up and aim and point a gun and squeeze the trigger. They might pull it like this, they might go like that running away, a variety of postures and every now and then, they got a lucky shot. A police officer gets hit. Sometimes it can be on --

LEMON: It could be someone not that familiar and so do that.

KLINGER: Absolutely.

LEMON: OK. So --

KLINGER: And there's actually research on that shootings (ph).

LEMON: So we shouldn't be putting, you know our chances on, that it was an expert marksman.

KLINGER: It is possible, but it is also possible.

LEMON: Yeah.

KLINGER: It was just some everyday run of the mill thug that happened to have a gun that he got off of the street.

LEMON: Yeah. I have ask you this, since you represented Officer Darren Wilson when seeing things like this, because remember, immediately, after -- when the -- the announcement of no indictment came down, he was concerned about the other officers on the street, and now this. Is he reacted to this? Has he spoken?

NEIL BRUNTRAGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He has, and again, obviously, he is saddened by -- the surprise though, Don, it has taken this long. Where there have been lots of incidents that have occurred from August 9th through last night. Where there been shots that have been fired at the police officers. I'm astonished that it has taken this long. But Darren obviously saddened by it, you can't, as a police officer, someone in law enforcement, you can't watch this and not feel this, and he does. LEMON: Do you feel that the -- the DOJ report came out and vindicated

him. But also, on the same day, it was a very damning report. Another one came out from the police department. Do you think -- does he feel that one canceled of the other, that his exoneration was overshadowed by what happened with the police department?

BRUNTRAGER: He does. He thinks that this was absolute attempt to manipulate the day by the Justice Department. What they did when -- the way they announced that the entire manner that they approached this thing, was designed to distract people from the finding on the Darren Wilson case. But if you read the 86 pages, it was a brilliantly written report by obviously, by lawyers who were prosecutors, who understood what he had to do. And they went through -- witness by witness, they went through a piece of evidence by piece of evidence. What side of that? Is the DOJ report? It was clearly written by their PR department.

LEMON: You were a bit leery of the DOJ report, concerning the police department last week...

BRUNTRAGER: Yes.

LEMON: In fact, you down played it. Now, that you've had a week to look at it...

BRUNTRAGER: Yeah.

LEMON: And after Tom Jackson resigning, what do you think of it?

BRUNTRAGER: Give me an hour on the witness stand with whoever wrote that report, and I will just disassemble it, Don. I will disassemble it. It is fluff, it has anecdotal, if you go through and really drill down into the information that is there, it says nothing. If you were going to handle that as though were truly an investigation, that report would never pass judicial muster...

LEMON: So, mostly African-Americans being stopped. Mostly African- Americans being ticketed...

BRUNTRAGER: No.

LEMON: Being held longer than two or three days.

BRUNTRAGER: Look at their numbers. What would have they say? They say, when we take these numbers and we apply this numbers, but they don't tell us what these numbers are. They just give us statistics, and that is Benjamin Disraeli, lies, damn lies, and statistics. You can use those however you want. They don't define what they are talking about. They don't tell you how they are figuring it out, what their pool of numbers is. If you have a sociologist that -- like this man, who would drill down into it, and really? Look, at these things? You would never get to a point where you could say this is profiling...

LEMON: Yeah.

BRUNTRAGER: If you look at the numbers nationally, you would never get there, Don.

LEMON: Jeff, you are very pro-police...

ROORDA: Right.

LEMON: But there -- you do agree in the report that you said that the system here of using the police department is a way to fill the coffers, you think it's -- really on the -- on the terrible side, because many municipalities do it, this is on the really bad side.

ROORDA: Terrible problem all across Missouri, Don. As a matter of fact, we got a law going through the state legislature, lecture called the mass Greek Law, (ph) it is named after a predominantly white city in outstate Missouri, where they have the same problem here. This profit tearing (ph) by means of by courts (ph). It's deplorable, the fraternal police support putting cops on it, you hear in a war drums back there. And -- but there is no correlation between this profit tearing (ph) and -- any sort of practice of racial discrimination.

LEMON: Even -- even if when you look --

BRUNTRAGER: Don --

LEMON: Go ahead, Neil.

BRUNTRAGER: I was gonna say one thing. And this goes back to what Jeff is saying, on what you mentioned before. There's one number that send there, that is a telling number, and they say, 93 percent of the bench warrant issued, are issued against black Americans, OK? The problem with that is that a bench warrant is issued when you don't show up for court. How can that number be racially motivated, if you don't show up, there's a warrant. They are not gonna say, you didn't show and you're black, there is a warrant. You didn't show up and you are white, there is not. There is no evidence of that. So again, if you really peel this away, it's not at all what they've said.

LEMON: So then, then, if you look as we are listening to the protesters now, I just want to show the pictures of the protesters and then we'll continue our conversations, but again, they are gathering in front of the police department. This is -- when you hear, when you hear that -- is there any concern for you, Jeff?

ROORDA: Well -- hey, 100 percent of the people who didn't show up for court got a warrant, if you're not showing up in the court.

LEMON: I'm talking about, when you hear the protest, would you see this is happening --

BRUNTRAGER: I am nervous standing by Jeff.

ROORDA: You know what? They got a right to make all the noise they want until it is gun fire.

LEMON: Yeah. So, let's get back to the report. So then, if you said you can manipulate numbers and statistics and I -- do you agree with that, that you can manipulate it? KLINGER: Well, the issue is we need to understand what the benchmark

is, and the bottom line is that you cannot use the population as your benchmark. Well, you need to do is you need to know who is travelling in the motor vehicle.

LEMON: So with that, the police department now, working with consultants, 26 recommendations. Is there then some recompense or legal recourse? Some wiggle room for the police department, not to have to abide by some of those, because you can manipulate those numbers.

BRUNTRAGER: No, I think they're gonna have to implement whatever they are talking about in the report. I think there's gonna have to be changes, but I don't think they want to change the department. I think the plan is to disassemble the department.

KLINGER: Did you heard?

BRUNTRAGER: I think in the end, that's what they are gonna do. So again, they can -- they can hold up all of these great ideas about what they are gonna do. But in the last analysis, they don't want -- they being the Justice Department, they want the Ferguson Police Department gone. Good, bad or indifferently, that is what they want. That is what it is geared to do.

LEMON: Klinger (ph) do you agree?

KLINGER: Because I want to step back to the issue of the analysis. One of my colleagues (inaudible) at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, does all of the traffic stop and pit stop information, and so that is the type of person that should really taking care if you look at this.

LEMON: Alright, thank you, gentlemen. Coming up, as bad as the situation is in Ferguson, it is -- it could get worse before it gets better, more on that, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... with this. (ph)

CROWD: Goodbye for people (ph)

LEMON: Our Breaking News now, we are back on the streets of Ferguson, and I want to tell you that you are looking live at the protest right in front of the Ferguson, Missouri Police Department. You can see science there in the crowd. One says, Justice for Michael...

CROWD: We have nothing.

LEMON: And they are chanting -- and you can hear their chants. Earlier, they were saying no justice, no peace. Some of them still using, hands up don't shoot. Also, at this hour, as the protesters are out here and as we are broadcasting, a manhunt is on for two people wanted for questioning in the shooting of those two police officers, joining me now to discuss this, Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, and Lizz Brown, criminal defense attorney and columnist for the St. Louis America newspaper. Good evening to both of you. Thanks for joining...

LIZZ BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good evening, Don

LEMON: As we continue to look at this crowd that's gathering here. Lizz, I want you to -- to get your take on the conversation that I just had with the gentlemen. I think that Neil Bruntrager earlier said, he believes that the whole goal of this department, of justice report is to dismantle the entire police department, do you agree with that? And should it be dismantle?

BROWN: No, the whole goal of the DOJ report is to address the rampant virulent racism that is being engaged in that community, that's what the goal of the report is. And with respect to the dismantling of the police department, I don't believe the police department should be dismantled. This is a largely African-American community. You should not give away power, you need to gut it. You need to do as one elected official told me today, you need to have every police officer re-apply for their job and be evaluated before they are hired, and we need to have -- make a police department that reflects this community, police officers that live within this community, or 20 miles away from this community, police officers that reflect the diversity of this community. So, no, I don't think the police department should be dismantled, and I don't believe that, that is some goal of the department of justice report. And just for the record...

LEMON: And Mark O'Mara...

BROWN: Did I actually --

LEMON: Also --

BROWN: Did I actually hear...

LEMON: Go ahead, Lizz.

BROWN: The attorney representing Darren Wilson say, there they go with the war drums? Did I hear that?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No. Not that war drums it is (ph).

LEMON: I couldn't -- I didn't -- I did not hear that. I do not. I think that was someone out in the crowd, with the natural sound in the crowd. But I want to ask you this Mark O'Mara...

O'MARA: Sure.

LEMON: When -- you heard the members of the panel say, you can manipulate the numbers. The Department of Justice...

O'MARA: Right.

LEMON: Can manipulate those numbers and statistics. Did you agree with that?

O'MARA: Well, first of all, all stats can be manipulated. I did not think that the DOJ report improperly manipulated any of the statistics. Here is what really going on, Ferguson came on our radar, because of what happened to Mike Brown, it is now a national crisis. And that is why I think the Ferguson Police Department needs to be done from the ground-up, and start again. Not because I want to indict every Ferguson police officer, but because, the community and the African community -- African-American community nationwide have absolutely no faith in that process. And we have an opportunity to now take Ferguson, show it for what it was to that community and say, we have a way to fix it. So that three years from now, we can look back, and say, we reconstituted the Ferguson Police Department under the Department of Justice auspices, and now, look, they are absolutely...

LEMON: Yeah.

O'MARA: Community-involve, and absolutely trustworthy, because we know there is no trust for Ferguson PD right now.

LEMON: Alright.

O'MARA: Yeah.

LEMON: Mark and Lizz, stand by. I want to -- just take you guys back into the crowd. You can see the police officers have started to go into the crowd, some of them calming down the protesters. And the protest happening, just on the streets here in front of the Ferguson Police Department, but again, there was an obviously much more boisterous protest last night. A one that ended with the shooting of two police officers, they are not exactly sure who shot those police officers. The protesters are saying it had nothing to do with them, the police department is saying they are not exactly sure who shot them. It could have been a protester, but they don't know at this point. We were gonna continue to follow the protests live here in Ferguson. We will be right back, right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are back now live here in Ferguson. Protesters are out on the street, and looks like they are gathering in larger numbers now. As these protesters are out, there are still -- there still a manhunt for the person or persons responsible for shooting two police officers last night, one in the shoulder, and one in the face. And you never know when it gets later here what could happen, and it seems that things start to happen a little bit later on here in the evening. So to continue our live coverage now, my colleague Anderson Cooper joins me now, and Anderson, take it away.