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Harrison Ford Survives Plane Crash; Delta Flight Skids Off New York Runway; Motorists Stranded on Kentucky Highway for Miles; Several Injured in Jerusalem Car Attack; Video Emerges of 'Jihadi John' as Teen; Did Hillary Clinton Violate E-mail Policy?

Aired March 6, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRISON FORD, ACTOR: 53178, engine failure. Request immediate return.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actor Harrison Ford has crashed his plane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's amazing he made it back. I mean, he must be a very good pilot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have an aircraft off the runway.

UNIDENTFIEID FEMALE: This plane slid off runway 13 at LaGuardia airport.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not feel the wheels take traction.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amateur footage reveal as now-famous face, Jihadi John, the executioner, who was always hidden behind swaths of black clothing in ISIS videos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew my legs were gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jurors and others could be seen fighting back tears.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Testimony if you're ever going to sway a jury that's on the fence about the death penalty, this is the kind that would.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY, with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY; it's Friday, March 6th, just before 6:00 in the East. Alisyn Camerota is going to join us from the George W. Bush Presidential Center in Dallas. Announcing her candidacy? Not quite. We'll get back to her in a moment.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Not yet. CUOMO: Though she looks very presidential.

This morning we have two terrifying air scares to tell but. We have new information about a Delta jet that skidded off a snowy runway at New York's LaGuardia airport. It stopped just short of plunging into the bay.

And Indiana Jones cheating death one more time in real life.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, actor Harrison Ford battered and bruised but very much alive after crash-landing his vintage World War II plane on a golf course when the engine stalled just after take off. We have reporters on the ground covering both of these close calls on both coasts.

We'll begin with Paul Vercammen in Venice, California. Paul.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Michaela, Harrison Ford no doubt trying to get back to the airport. He sees green, a golf course, in this residential neighborhood, and he sticks the landing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN (voice-over): This cell-phone video capturing moments just before a two-seat plane piloted by actor Harrison Ford crash-lands on a golf course in California.

Ford had just taken off from Santa Monica Airport when the World War II vintage plane experienced a problem, the actor instantly calling for help.

FORD: Five-three-one-seven-eight engine failure. Request immediate return.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan 178 run A21 cleared to land.

VERCAMMEN: The Hollywood legend and experienced pilot clipping a tree top as the single-engine plane attempted to land back at the airport but fell short, crash-landing on a course just steps away from a residential neighborhood.

LACKING: Having problems and then he turned round so when he was right by the house, the engine cut out. And then he turned round.

VERCAMMEN: Ford was pulled from the plane by doctors who happened to be playing golf on the course. First responders say Ford was conscious and is lucky to be alive. Ford's son tweeting, "Dad is OK. Battered, but OK. He's every bit the man you would think he is. He's an incredibly strong man."

And his publicist says his injuries are "not life-threatening and he's expected to make a full recovery."

This isn't the first time that Ford has had a close call. In 1999 Ford had to make a hard emergency landing while flying this helicopter with a flight instructor. FORD: Down the runway like...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN: Federal investigators will be back on scene this morning. But one thing they won't be able to investigate is this vintage plane does not have a black box, Chris.

CUOMO: That's for sure. But at least it has somebody who can tell the story of what happened. In this case, Harrison Ford. Thank you for the reporting.

Now back here in New York a much bigger situation. The NTSB investigating a near disaster at New York's LaGuardia Airport. Delta Flight, 127 passengers aboard. Skidded off a snowy runway, nearly went right into the icy waters of Flushing Bay. We have CNN's Miguel Marquez, live at LaGuardia with more -- Miguel.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chris, amazing that so few injuries happened in this situation. Right now that fuselage, that plane is being taken off the runway here at LaGuardia so that things can get back to normal. There are a few cancellations here, a few delays, but for the most part, this airport is struggling back into action.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ (VOICE-OVER): This morning, the priority, to lift the battered fuselage of Delta Flight 1086 from LaGuardia's runway. Delta Airlines, the NTSB and Port Authority now working to investigate the cause of the skid.

PAT FOYE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PORT AUTHORITY: Obviously, the pilot and the co-pilot's good efforts were reflected in the fact that there were only minor injuries.

MARQUEZ: At approximately 11 a.m. local time, amid freezing fog and falling snow, the Delta flight landed on LaGuardia's Runway 13. Upon touching down, the MD-88 lost control, skidding just over halfway down the 7,000-foot runway, then a sharp and violent turn to the left. The plane's nose slamming the embankment so hard it ripped off. Its left wing damaged, leaking fuel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's leaking fuel on the left side of his aircraft heavily.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's leak -- you said leaking fuel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Affirm, his wing is ruptured.

MARQUEZ: A hundred and thirty-two passengers and crew forced to deplane from the wing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm jumping out the window, sliding down the wing, and they're like, "Hurry up, hurry up," like I see gas coming out of the wing. MARQUEZ: According to Delta, the 28-year-old plane had a maintenance

service check on Tuesday and Runway 13 apparently plowed just minutes prior. Another pilot who landed minutes before reported good braking conditions, but conditions were not ideal.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: That Delta plane landed with a tailwind, which is about the most dangerous thing you can do on an icy runway.

MARQUEZ: Officials say the plane briefly circled the runway before being cleared to land. But whether or not it should have been permitted to land at all is a question the NTSB is now trying to answer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Now, we spoke to pilots who landed at this airport in the hours and minutes before that Delta flight landed. Two hours before, they said there were poor conditions on that runway. It had been plowed throughout the day. Twenty minutes before that flight plane landed, another pilot landed a smaller plane, saying that it was a problem but not terrible.

When this plane came down, though, clearly conditions had changed -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: All important things to know when the investigation continues. Miguel, thank you so much for that. Let us know, as well, as they start to move the parts of that plane.

So what was it actually like to be on that Delta plane? Here in studio with us, passenger Jared Faellaci. Also joining us, aviation attorney and president of the International Air and Transportation Safety Board Association, Justin Green. We should mention Justin is a private pilot and a former military pilot.

Good to have you here. My darling, how are you feeling today, Jared?

JARED FAELLACI, PASSENGER ON DELTA FLIGHT: A little stressed, obviously very grateful to be alive this morning. Still in the spirit of reflection. Still processing. So obviously yesterday's affairs kind of shook me up.

I had several points after getting off the plane, yesterday afternoon and yesterday evening, where I actually just started crying. And just realizing that -- what I actually went through and how serious it was. And grateful to be alive, grateful for God's protection, grateful for my kids and grateful for life.

PEREIRA: There's a lot of people grateful to see you, too, I'm sure.

FAELLACI: Absolutely. Absolutely.

PEREIRA: Your family is probably just a little overwhelmed. Because this is playing over and over on the news, and you've seen the images now, too. FAELLACI: Last night.

PEREIRA: Reflecting on that and seeing how close you came, I'm sure that's very chilling.

Let's go back. Are you OK to do this?

FAELLACI: Absolutely. Absolutely.

PEREIRA: So regular day, you fly a lot.

FAELLACI: Yes, yes.

PEREIRA: Flying for business, heading out of Atlanta, headed to New York, to LaGuardia. Things are fine. Basically, a nice day in Atlanta.

FAELLACI: Yes.

PEREIRA: A couple-hour flight, everything is fine. You guys circle a little bit because of ice and snow. Did the pilot tell you that?

FAELLACI: Yes.

PEREIRA: OK.

FAELLACI: Yes, the pilot was very proactive. And as I told some folks, I was a little surprised that we actually were going to fly, because the day before when I left the office, they had canceled a bunch of flights.

PEREIRA: Yes. And you thought you might not make it out.

FAELLACI: Exactly. And so when I woke up and I didn't get an alert from Delta, I headed to the airport, and we flew. And then, when we started to circle, the pilot actually proactively said air traffic control is going to tell us to circle a little bit because of the weather conditions on the ground. So we circled. No one thought a thing.

PEREIRA: You didn't have any, like twinge in your tummy...?

FAELLACI: No.

PEREIRA: ... thinking, "This is going to be stressful?"

FAELLACI: No.

PEREIRA: Not at all.

FAELLACI: Yes.

PEREIRA: Until...

FAELLACI: As soon as we started to approach -- and I was telling Justin this earlier -- literally, as soon as the wheels touched down, within two seconds, I knew there was an issue.

PEREIRA: You felt something?

FAELLACI: We didn't feel the wheels take.

PEREIRA: You usually feel that. The gripping and all.

FAELLACI: Exactly, they grab, and you feel that.

PEREIRA: These are the pictures that you took, right?

FAELLACI: Exactly. I gave them to Joey Hirsch and they sent them off to you guys when I landed.

So literally, within two seconds, the wheels didn't take, we started to skid, we veered to the left-hand side of the runway. And then you're just feeling nothing but rough ground.

PEREIRA: What are you thinking?

FAELLACI: Well, an array of emotions. First of all, my buddy, Dave Sanderson, was on the Hudson River crash a couple years ago. And he went through that tragedy on the water. So I'm immediately thinking, "I'm going to end up in the water just like Dave." And then the next thought that goes through my mind is "I'm going to end up dead. This is it. My time has come. You know, God is calling me home." And just is like -- and literally, I brace the seat in front of me. People are doing all sorts of things. Some people were crying; some people were obviously frantic. Some people were praying; some people were, obviously, shouting.

But I grabbed the seat in front of me. I just bowed my head and prayed and just asked for God's protection in that moment. And literally, when it came to a screeching halt, and we felt the pressure of the wing clipping the fence...

PEREIRA: Yes, yes.

FAELLACI: ... because it dragged the fence for about 200 yards or so, and obviously the plane kind of moved where it was actually facing out into the water, and then amazingly enough, which now I see of photos, the pilot walked out of the cockpit. After we -- after about 20 seconds, no one moved. No one said a thing. Everyone just sat in their seats, because I think we were just breathing, "Are we OK, are we on the water?"

PEREIRA: Waiting to see what would happen, too?

FAELLACI: Exactly. We actually -- I was telling Wolf yesterday, we felt like there was a weight imbalance. Like if we stand up, is this going to -- are we half over the water?

PEREIRA: Because you did not know what you were on and where you were.

FAELLACI: Exactly. And so literally, we thought maybe if we stand up it's going to be problematic, so we just -- everyone just stood -- sat in their seats, didn't do anything.

The pilot came out of the cockpit. The flight attendant stood up, and they reassured and calmed everyone and then obviously gave the process of deplaning. And the pilot was so cool under pressure.

PEREIRA: Cool under pressure in a situation. I mean, right now, obviously Justin, they're trying to figure out what went on. OK?

JUSTIN GREEN, PRESIDENT, IATSBA: That's right.

PEREIRA: Bad conditions, we understand that. We understand that other pilots had reported that it was not great conditions on the runway. But that was 20 minutes before. They had plowed it. They went ahead and tried to land. Should they have tried?

GREEN: Well, that's -- that's what the NTSB is going to be looking at. And one of the most important things is to let the investigation play out.

They're going to be looking at the runway conditions. They're also going to be looking at the visibility. The pilots have to have appropriate weather in order to land. The wind has to be correct. The visibility, minimums have to be met. This approach to the runway probably should have had a half-mile visibility. And everyone is reporting a quarter-mile visibility.

PEREIRA: Quarter mile. And then the conditions of the runway itself were an issue. We know the Port Authority is in charge of maintaining that.

GREEN: Right, the Port -- the NTSB is going to be looking at the Port Authority. Their snow removal procedures...

PEREIRA: Yes.

GREEN: ... when they did the snow removal. They were continuously monitoring the conditions. Because the conditions were changing minute to minute.

PEREIRA: Here's a question that reminds me of our MH-370 investigation. We have technology that should be able to monitor those things. I know the Port Authority has a system of testing the runway...

GREEN: That's right.

PEREIRA: ... a skid testing to make sure that it's OK. Other reporter -- other pilots reported, two other pilots reported that it was OK to land, that they were fine. It wasn't great, but they were OK to land. That's really subjective. Shouldn't there be technology in use to tell that definitively for pilots?

GREEN: Well, there's no -- there's no silver bullet on these issues. The question, ultimately, is a judgment issue and the question is whether the Port Authority, whether the federal aviation administration, and ultimately, whether the pilots made the right decisions on that day.

PEREIRA: Another aspect is the fact that LaGuardia is a tricky airport to fly in and out of anyway. Short runways, right? That's a real issue.

GREEN: Short runways. It's in the city. There's not a lot of options. If they overrun the runway, they're in the bay. If they go to...

PEREIRA: The terminal, the taxiway.

GREEN: ... you know, run off the runway, they're in the bay.

PEREIRA: Right.

GREEN: Exactly. So there's not a lot of options. And the reason Jared's friend ended up in the Hudson River is because there's really no emergency landing place.

PEREIRA: And look, we've got to talk about 1992. And I know you represented some of the victims in that situation.

GREEN: Right. We did.

PEREIRA: Twenty-seven died. This did not turn out that way. You know, there were injuries. There were people hospitalized, but everybody is going to survive.

But '92 was not that situation. Is it time for LGA to take a look at this airport, how it's run, how it's structured?

GREEN: Well, '92 was a takeoff emergency. And it dealt with -- it was also in March. But it was icing conditions. Ice built up on the wings. They didn't de-ice properly, and they allowed too much time to go by after their de-icing procedures. But honestly, Jared mentioned God. Maybe God was on the scene yesterday, because this was really a miracle.

PEREIRA: I'm going to just say God was on the scene yesterday. Jared, back to you.

FAELLACI: yes.

PEREIRA: You have an "X" on your hand.

FAELLACI: I do.

PEREIRA: Tell me what -- show that to the people at home. What's that for?

FAELLACI: This was actually promoted by CNN a couple of weeks ago with the whole human trafficking awareness and action campaign. So end it movement. Trying to put -- shine a light on human slavery and trying to shine action and actually mobilize folks to shine a light and end human slavery. So...

PEREIRA: I thought it was something to do with -- being -- but I do want to point out what you're wearing.

FAELLACI: Yes.

PEREIRA: He normally would -- I'm assuming that you probably would have had a suit on.

FAELLACI: Yes.

PEREIRA: But all of your belongings are still on the plane.

FAELLACI: Are still on the plane, and I have no idea when I'm going to have them. My computer, everything is on the plane. So I'm in the same clothes -- I actually had to go by the Marriott and get a shirt, because my other shirt was sweat. So I apologize.

PEREIRA: You look fine. We're just happy to see you, my friend. And here's the question.

FAELLACI: Yes.

PEREIRA: You have -- you're not home. This is not home for you?

FAELLACI: NO. This is not home.

PEREIRA: Do you know when you get to leave?

FAELLACI: Not yet. I'm going to call Delta later this morning and get an update in terms of...

PEREIRA: Are you going to feel OK getting on a plane?

FAELLACI: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

PEREIRA: Good for you. My friend, we are very glad to see you.

FAELLACI: Thank you.

PEREIRA: I feel like you are going to live life a little differently now?

FAELLACI: Very grateful and very purposeful, so yes.

PEREIRA: All right. Take care of yourself. Give those family members big hugs.

FAELLACI: I will, all three kids.

PEREIRA: Congratulations, and I'm so glad they have their daddy home.

Jared, Justin, thank you for your expertise. We appreciate it.

GREEN: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Chris, what an amazing story.

CUOMO: Wow. What a recounting of what he lived through on that plane. Boy, I've never heard any more articulate recitation than that. That was great, Mick. Thank you for that.

So another story this morning: dozens of cars stranded for hours on snow-covered Interstate 65 in Kentucky. Some drivers were forced to spend the night in their vehicle. Officials still working this morning to clear the jam-up. The question now is, is there any relief in sight?

Let's get to meteorologist Chad Myers; has the forecast. You know, what we're hearing about the airplanes, people getting stuck in their cars. It's all about the weather. The question is when does did let up?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: It lets up on Tuesday. And I know that's still a weekend away. But it gets warm. All of this starts to really melt on the beginning of next week.

There's the swath of snow that those drivers were stuck in. One jackknifed truck, or truck that wasn't moving, stopped all the cars behind it. There are a lot of cars stopped here, too. Look at Dulles, LaGuardia, Philadelphia, all over a half a foot of snow yesterday.

So the current temperature in New York, 13. You get into parts of Jersey, 4. That's what it feels like right now. It is cold. Those are the only four letters I can use, C-O-L-D. A little clipper comes by, but it's not that important.

The big story is that the cold finally goes away. The mild air is here. And by next week, it might be 80 degrees in Atlanta. And it will certainly be 60 or 65 for all of that snow fell in Kentucky. That's the silver lining. That's all I got.

Guys, back to you.

CUOMO: I don't believe you.

PEREIRA: All right. To this now, some breaking news overnight in Jerusalem. Several people have been injured after a driver rammed into a crowd and apparently tried to stab his victims. Police there are calling this a terror attack.

Let's get to CNN's Oren Lieberman. He's in Jerusalem with more of the details. What do we know, Oren?

OREN LIEBERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, this happened at 10 a.m. this morning local time. Police say that a driver on road No. 1 was driving south to north, so heading north when police say he pulled into what would be a bike lane or a sidewalk and hit four female border security officers and a cyclist.

Police say the driver then turned back onto the road and kept going for about a quarter mile. That's when police say a security guard from the nearby light rail got out and started shooting at the car, stopping the car.

Police say the suspect, the driver of that care got out, pulled a knife and that's when police say that security guard shot the driver twice, that driver now in custody. He is in severe condition.

As for the other people that were hit by that car, police say the four female border security officers are lightly to moderately wounded. The civilian there who was on a bicycle, police say also lightly to moderately wounded.

And just to give you a quick idea where this is, this is pretty much in the heart of Jerusalem, just a little bit north of the old city on Route 1. which is a line between East and West Jerusalem. So very high tension in that area. Very high tensions these days.

And Chris, what we're learning is Hamas released a statement a short time ago. They didn't take responsibility for the attack, but they praised and blessed the attack.

CUOMO: And also just a reminder of the threat that motivates Israel's perspective on what's going on. Thank you for the reporting.

Let's turn now to a CNN exclusive. We have a brand-new look at Jihadi John. Now, this is not some ISIS propaganda video. It's a tape made back when he was a teenager. The point is to try to figure out how someone shifts from being a civilian to a savage.

CNN's Atika Shubert has more for us live from London.

Atika, what did we learn here?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is incredibly rare footage of what appears to be a very young, maybe 15-year-old, teenaged Mohammed Emwazi. Basically in school.

And in it, you can see why everyone has described him as a shy young man. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHUBERT (voice-over): Teenagers mess around with a basketball at a West London secondary school. One, wearing a backpack, shows off some fancy footwork. But closer inspection of this amateur footage reveals a now-famous face. Mohammed Emwazi, confirmed by U.S. officials to be Jihadi John, the executioner who is always hidden behind swaths of black clothing in ISIS videos.

Here, too, the Kuwaiti-born accused killer appears shy, an attribute his former head teacher, who identified him in this video, also recalls.

JO SHUTER, FORMER HEADMASTER, QUINTIN KYNASTON ACADEMY: He was reserved. He didn't have a circle of friends, but he had a few good friends. Was bullied a little bit, because he was -- he was quiet. And he was reserved. But generally, he was fine.

MOHAMMED "JIHADI JOHN" EMWAZI, SPOKESMAN FOR ISIS: Our knife will continue to strike the necks of your people.

SHUBERT: It was his distinctive British voice that led to Emwazi being identified. Since then, a fuller picture is emerging. He's described as being a polite young man from a middle-class family. Photographs of a student at London's Westminster University and most recently in Kuwait. A reported audio recording in 2009, released by a British Muslim advocacy group, CAGE UK.

EMWAZI: "What do you think of 9/11?" I think I told him this is a wrong thing. What happened was wrong.

SHUBERT: But for the people who knew him, it is difficult to fathom that the football-loving teenager they knew as Mohammed Emwazi has emerged as the man behind the mask.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SHUBERT: The big question now is how did he become Jihadi John after you see him there as that shy teenager? And even in 2009, just before he left in 2012, he still appears to be quite withdrawn. And it's not until he actually reaches Syria that he appears to become the man we now know as Jihadi John, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Fascinating and disturbing look. Atika, thank you for that.

Authorities in South Korea are investigating a possible link between the man accused of attacking U.S. Ambassador Mark Lippert and North Korea. Fifty-five-year-old Kim Ki-Jong reportedly made numerous trips to North Korea. And a statement from Pyongyang calls the slashing a, quote, "knife attack of justice."

Prosecutors have issued an arrest warrant now for Jong [SIC]. He could be charged with attempted murder. Ambassador Lippert, for his part, is recovering in the hospital following surgery and 80 stitches.

CUOMO: There are new developments in the Hillary Clinton e-mail mess. Bad practice, bad oversight, bad reporting. This story has something for everyone. The State Department now pushing back on reports that Hillary Clinton's use of personal e-mail was in violation of its rules. Why? Well, the officials say because they don't know that she broke the policy, and they'll have to review the 55,000 pages of e- mails she did turn over in order to know.

Meanwhile, CNN's Jake Tapper reports that back in 2012 the ambassador to Kenya was hammered by the State Department's inspector-general for a variety of things, including using personal e-mail to conduct government business, while Clinton was doing the same thing at the same time. Ambassador Scott Gration was eventually forced out.

PEREIRA: Some interesting research here. Nearly four in ten Americans believe that race relations in America have gotten worse under President Obama.

Now according to a new CNN/ORC poll, just 15 percent of Americans believe that they've improved. If we break it down further, 45 percent of whites, 26 percent of blacks say racial tensions have escalated under the nation's first black president.

Look at the sharp divide on perceptions of race disparity. Half of all white people believe the criminal justice system treats blacks and whites fairly. Only 19 percent of African-Americans agree with that.

So let us know what you think. You can tweet us, @NewDay. Go to Facebook.com. Add your comments there on our NEW DAY page.

CUOMO: All right. The State Department insists Hillary Clinton did nothing wrong. Or at least they don't know yet. New evidence suggests that might not be the case. Meanwhile, Clinton's own words about private e-mail use may come back to haunt her now. We'll tell you what she said.

PEREIRA: And there she is -- look, she looks so presidential.

CUOMO: She does.

CAMEROTA: I do. I feel presidential. Good morning, guys. Greetings from the Oval Office. I'm at the Bush Center in Dallas in an exact replica, down to minute details, of the Oval Office. So later this morning, I'll give you a tour, and I will also have an exclusive one- on-one interview with Laura Bush. The former first lady will be here live to talk about what she believes will be the key to peace in the Middle East and some other hot topics. Stick around for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: This Hillary e-mail thing just keeps going. Overnight the State Department now pushing back, reporting Hillary Clinton automatically violated any rules by using a personal e-mail account, they can't say that. Her State Department wasn't always as generous with others who did the same thing when they did say that there was a violation.

So let's discuss where we are now with this story and the accountability. We've got Ron Brownstein, CNN senior political analyst; and Errol Louis, a CNN political commentator.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here.

Ron, help me understand. They have a rule in place about what you're supposed to do with private e-mail, how it's supposed to be recorded, how it's supposed to be turned over. Right?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. So you know, "The New York Times" reported today, I thought, something important: that they, Clinton camp is saying that no State Department lawyer or career personnel told them they could not do this. There was not an unequivocal ban on doing this.

Was it in a gray area? That certainly seems the case. If you compare it kind of vertically within the organization, it certainly seems that they gave others a tougher time. That wasn't the only reason for the complaints about the ambassador of Kenya. Certainly, it was one of them.

On the other hand, Chris, if you look at this kind of horizontally and you look at the class of 2016, there aren't -- you know, it's clear that this is a trend we are seeing, whether it was Jeb Bush or Scott Walker as the county executive, where people are kind of using personal e-mails to retain more control. It's a bad trend. We want to push back against it.

But I would be surprised, given all the people around Clinton, that if there was an unequivocal rule that they broke here, that no one would have pointed that out in four years as secretary of state.

CUOMO: Fair point from Ron, Errol. But being the secretary of state and the types of things she was doing and the Department of State having these rules changes the context of this behavior, doesn't it?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's troubling, to be sure. But I mean, to extend Ron's point just a little bit more, Colin Powell used private e-mail when he was secretary of state.

CUOMO: Only?

LOUIS: Well, not uniquely, but it was overwhelmingly where he did all of his communications. And the first secretary of state to use State.gov is John Kerry. It just hadn't been done before. And it's a little troubling. I mean, if you start to...

CUOMO: Is it troubling because the State Department was behind the times? Or is it troubling because Hillary Clinton was doing something that seems to oppose transparency? Or both?

LOUIS: Well, for me as a journalist, it's troubling that we have a robust freedom of information law that says all government information is presumptively public with a couple of exceptions for confidentiality and national security and so forth. And it seems like the policy is disregarded in administration after administration at multiple levels of government.

CUOMO: True. But selectively. Selectively. Put up the I.G. statement, the inspector general. This is a stand-alone, an independent investigative person for the agency. All the agencies have them.

This guy investigates one of the ambassadors there in 2012, OK? Scott Gration. And he says he violated it, including a "front channel" -- whatever that means -- "instruction from the assistant secretary for diplomatic security against such practice, which he asserted to the OIG," the office of the inspector general, "that he had not seen."

All right. So here they're saying, "You knew what the policy was and you just didn't follow it." Ron, should that be applied to Hillary Clinton, a similar scrutiny?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I think -- I think the scrutiny should be applied, but look, I mean, let's face it: This would not be the first time in the history of the world where the rules were interpreted differently for people at the top of an operation than for those in the trenches.

This is a bad trend. I mean, as Errol was saying, for security reasons, for transparency reasons, for historical record reasons, you want -- I think you want public business to be conducted through the public accounts, rather than private accounts.

CUOMO: Right.

BROWNSTEIN: Whether we're going to get to the end of the line here and conclude that there was an unequivocal rule that they broke, I am dubious. I am more dubious that it's going to be a big factor one way or the other in her presidential campaign.

CUOMO: Right.

BROWNSTEIN: But it is a bad trend, and I think it was bad choice that she made.

CUOMO: See, I'm getting stuck on the word "trend," because I'm not looking at a trend. I'm looking at Hillary Clinton and about whether or not she was doing something intentionally to have hyper-control over what people knew about her. That's the assertion. That's the part that smells bad.

And I think we have to figure out right away whether or not that's the fair premise.

Her own words are being used now to forward this understanding. Take a listen to what she said, I think, in 2007, but about President Bush. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Secret White House e-mail accounts. It is a stunning record of secrecy and corruption.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: All right. Now what was she getting at there? Is that -- "You have, like, this parallel communication network that you're using, President Bush, to kind of keep us from knowing exactly what you're doing, and that's sneaky. We need more, not less transparency."

Is she "guilty," in quotes, of violating her own instruction?

LOUIS: Well, what she said sounds great on the stump. But the reality is, she, like every other high government official of both parties, apparently, multiple administrations, has a different set of rules. And we know that -- I mean, this is Hillary Clinton's sort of trademark, that...

CUOMO: You're lumping her in also. So you don't think that she deserves independent, individual scrutiny for this behavior?

LOUIS: I think she'll get the scrutiny. I'd be surprised -- I agree with Ron -- I'd be surprised if we find some smoking-gun memo. I think her political components are clearly just trying to sort of bash her a little bit, make her seem like sort of a used brand. "Oh, here we go again: more drama with Hillary Clinton" and so forth. But on the substantive issue, I don't think -- I don't think you're

going to find anything. I mean, why would multiple secretaries of state not use State Department accounts? Well, fine, go find Condoleezza Rice, who didn't use e-mail at all. Ask her about it. Find Colin Powell, who used private e-mail. Ask him about it. I don't think we're going to find anything.

It sounds like the government needs to get its act together and maybe be a little bit more clear. There actually might be a role for Congress in this, although good luck trying to do it in the context of a presidential campaign. But you know, it's something that the public has to decide we really want to see done clearly and cleanly.

CUOMO: All right. Errol Louis, Ron Brownstein, thank you both for the perspective. I appreciate it this morning.

Michaela?

PEREIRA,: Great conversation there, Chris. Thanks so much.

Emotions once again running high in the Boston marathon bombing trial. Victims of the attack telling their gut-wrenching stories to the jury. A chilling account from one man. He says he locked eyes with the suspect just moments before the first blast.

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