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DR. DREW

Judge Declared A Second Mistrial for Jodi Arias

Aired March 5, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" PROGRAM: Tonight, Jodi Arias will not be executed for having murdered Travis Alexander. We will

hear from his friends. We will hear from cheerful jurors and what it was like inside that jury room.

Let us get started with the most tweeted story of the night. Breaking news, prosecutors asked two juries to put murderer, Jodi Arias, to death

for slashing and shooting Travis Alexander, killing him multiple times but neither jury could reach unanimous decision. Hours ago, the judge declared

a second mistrial. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE BAILIFF: All rise for the jury.

JUDGE SHERRY K. STEPHENS, MARICOPA COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, PHOENIX, ARIZONA: We are hung. An additional time will not change this. At this time, the

court is declaring a mistrial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. KIRK NURMI, JODI ARIAS DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Myself or any member of the defense team will not be taking any questions. I do not think today`s

victory will repair any sadness or change anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN MARTINEZ, CRIMINAL PROSECUTOR: I am not really sure, you know, what emotions are associated with this. It is just a case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: Knowing the nature of Jodi Arias, I think that she is like a drowning rat. She will take down whoever

she has to hold on to in order for her to survive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us Anahita Sedaghatfar, attorney at Anahitalive.com; Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at Speaktomark.com and Kinsey Schofield, blogger.

Kinsey, you were actually in that courtroom today live tweeting for us all. What can you tell us about that one holdout juror?

KINSEY SCHOFIELD, BLOGGER: Dr. Drew, I can tell that you she is a 34-year- old female. Her Facebook likes include "The Law of Attraction: The Secret" and HLN`s own Nancy Grace. She has a history of domestic violence and

emotional abuse.

And, she actually told her fellow jurors that she did not believe that the death penalty was justice for Travis Alexander but she felt it was revenge;

which is an exact quote that Jodi Arias used post, "The Last Trial" in an interview with the "Today" show. It makes you feel a little uncomfortable

like maybe she has done a Google search or two.

PINSKY: Do you suspect that she got into that jury room with some pre- existing motivation?

SCHOFIELD: Absolutely. And, the jurors would not blatantly say it during their press conference today, but you felt it in their body language. They

even said that this woman saw the Jodi Arias lifetime movie and told them in the jury room. So, they are all very concerned that there was some

motivation that they did not share.

PINSKY: That she had not shared. Mark, before she went -- before she got on this jury, I am sure she was asked repeatedly, could she give the death

penalty.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that proves to me, to my satisfaction, that she was

not willing to give the death penalty. She just in this case did not agree with the 11.

We are going down a really serious slippery slope to use Anahita`s words if somehow we are going to condemn jurors that hold on to their strong

believes and not give in to those with pitchforks outside the courtroom, those who feel that the mitigators somehow were stronger than the

aggravators. That is it.

PINSKY: Well, maybe that is it, but we are just speculating that maybe there was more, Anahita.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Dr. Drew, we have not heard from this juror --

EIGLARSH: Prove otherwise.

SEDAGHATFAR: -- we have not heard from her. And, quite, frankly, she has no obligation to speak to the media or to anybody else. And, based on what

those jurors said today, it seems to me that, that holdout juror did, in fact, deliberate. Because they said that she gave reasons why she was not

voting for death, and one of the reasons --

PINSKY: Yes, but Anahita, they gave reasons that Jodi Arias herself had given.

SEDAGHATFAR: But, that does not matter. That is, actually, not true, Dr. Drew. That is incorrect. She said that one of the reasons she could not

vote for death is because she believed Jodi Arias was emotionally abused. And, she found that to be a factor of mitigation.

So, I really -- I agree with mark. We cannot go and start threatening jurors based on decisions that they make when there is absolutely no

evidence. That is not how our system works, Dr. Drew. Justice was served in this case.

PINSKY: After the mistrial was declared, 11 jurors who had been united in the death penalty decision. Remember, 11 people thought it was the right

thing to do. And, they agreed to speak to the media, as long as their faces were not shown. Here is what was said about the holdout. Take a

look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR: I think that she came in thinking that she was going to see a monster sitting there. And because that is what she had

seen on the movie and that is what she had seen on the news. But, when she walked in, she did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE JUROR: The biggest thing that angered me was that she alluded that the death penalty would be a form of revenge. She never went

undecided. She was life and she would not explain to us why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Jodi will be sentenced on April 13th. The judge has two choices, life behind bars or get out after having served only 25 years. Juror

number four spoke to Nancy great about having discussed that specific issue during their deliberations. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE JUROR #4: if we do not put forth the right judgment, if we are not all in agreement, there is a chance that she could get out in

her early 50s. I mean, that is like a whole life to live after that. So what punishment is it really?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Anahita, do you think there is any chance to that?

EIGLARSH: Drew?

PINSKY: Yes, Mark.

SEDAGHATFAR: I think that is highly unlikely, Dr. Drew. And, by the way, even if this juror -- this holdout juror did watch that lifetime movie,

that is not necessarily a basis to exclude her from the jury.

Because all that matters is that, A. She disclosed it, when the attorneys were asking her during jury selection, and if she was able to put aside

anything that she saw, read, heard and judge this case only on the facts and evidence presented in that courtroom.

PINSKY: Mark, you are shaking your head. What is the problem?

EIGLARSH: There is just so many issues here. First of all, jurors are not supposed to make their decision based upon what the possible penalty will

be. That is a violation of the law. They are simply way the aggravators versus the mitigators.

And, you know how I know she deliberated? Because I listen to every word to that post trial press conference. And, they provided, one by one, a

number of reasons that she gave to the other jurors. They did not have to like they reasons, but she gave reasons. So, she did participate in jury

deliberations.

But, it is a horrible precedent -- and, let me just say this, I know a lot of people are angry out there. They have a right to do so. That is what

makes this country great. Go ahead and voice your concerns.

But, to call for the prosecution of this judge or people who are jeopardizing the life of that juror, that to me is a problem. We have to

stand up as professionals and say, just because you do not like what someone does, does not mean that what they do was unlawful or dishonest in

anyway.

PINSKY: Kinsey, are the pitchforks and torches out there on the -- in Arizona? Or was this just something that people are discussing in the

social media?

SCHOFIELD: No. I -- Yes, this is just something that is happening on social media. I love Mark. I love his eyebrows. I love everything about

him, and I appreciate his enthusiasm but he is freaking out over nothing.

I am a huge Alexander family supporter. I love the family dearly. And, I have not seen any threats of violence towards that family, not even on the

internet. So, I appreciate Mark`s enthusiasm. I love to pinch his cheeks, but that is not reality.

SEDAGHATFAR: Not the family. He is talking about the threats made against the holdout juror --

PINSKY: And the judge. And, the judge.

EIGLARSH: That is what I am talking about.

SCHOFIELD: Yes. I have not seen any of those threats.

EIGLARSH: I have.

SEDAGHATFAR: I have seen and they are all over her.

EIGLARSH: I have. And, you know what? I have. And, that is why I wrote the article today explaining very carefully who cares what my opinion is

regarding what the outcome should be? Just how the system works.

A trial lawyer that I have been for years understands that there are two outcomes in every potential jury trial, and one may not be the one that you

want. No one has shown me that this woman committed anything that was nefarious, anything that was unlawful.

PINSKY: And, to be fair, Mark, I predicted --

EIGLARSH: That is different.

PINSKY: Anahita, you predicted this. I predicted this yesterday. I felt very strongly they would not be able to put this woman to death. I really

thought -- we had one jury that was our test case. They could not do it. I figured it would probably be the same here.

I do not know if it is something about being in her presence in the courtroom that she is a sympathetic figure in some way. I do not know if

it is the mitigating circumstances or somehow disturbing to some people.

I do not know if it is just that Jodi can manipulate at a distance. I do not know what it is, but I am not at all surprised by this. And, by the

way, Mark, they went into the deliberation 50/50, apparently. The ones that came over to the death penalty came that way after deliberation, but

they were split at the beginning.

EIGLARSH: And, for those who say that she had her mind made up, let us focus on something. She was sitting in that courtroom for over five months

when she came in, obviously, she had very strong feelings. The others did not convince her otherwise. It is her right. It might not be what I

wanted her to do.

PINSKY: Yes.

EIGLARSH: Or what people want her to do, but it is her right to hold her ground. And, I say that, that is courageous. It is very difficult not to

go with the others.

PINSKY: Kinsey, I will get you after --

SCHOFIELD: Every time I saw her, she was -- I am sorry.

PINSKY: I will get you after the break. You hold that thought. I will get you after the break.

Next up, Jodi did not glance at Travis` family in court today. We will look at why that was not the case, why she did not.

And, later, I will speak to one of Travis` friends, get his reaction to what happened today. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF FIRST-DEGREE MURDER: Eventually we are both gong to remarry people, and I just get the feeling that there are not a lot of

Mormon guys like that. And, there may or may not -- I am sure there are plenty of freaky Mormon girls, but are they the marrying time? I really

would like to marry some -- a return missionary. But, like you -- someone who can be freaky.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, JODI`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I am going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE WORD) all the way.

ARIAS: Oh, my gosh. That is so debasing. I like it.

(LAUGHING)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARIAS: I am game for almost everything you come up with. But, you really are a well-spring of ideas.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARIAS: You know what I really liked is when we were in the bath with the candles and I had the braids?

ALEXANDER: Hmmm mmm.

ARIAS: And the bubbles on top of --

ALEXANDER: Oh, I love the braids.

ARIAS: I know those are hot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with some breaking news. Anahita, Mark and Kinsey. That was phone sex session with Travis that Jodi had recorded. Very weird that I

found that she was recording that stuff.

Her defense seemed played it in an attempt to portray him as a dominant aggressive sexual manipulator. Kinsey, that was not received too well by

the jury. Before we went to break, you were trying to make another point as well.

SCHOFIELD: I was. I just wanted to say that whenever I did see this juror, she was taking copious amounts of notes. So, I did agree with what

Mark was saying at the time. She did -- I did feel like she was heavily invested in the case.

And she did take copious amounts of notes. So, I just wanted to say that. Additionally, yes, the jury thought the sex -- the Mormon religion, all of

that stuff was totally irrelevant and a waste of their time.

PINSKY: Mark, totally irrelevant or was that something that was one of the mitigating factors that really got under, maybe, that one juror`s skin?

EIGLARSH: Maybe. I mean, maybe. We do not know. And, you know what? She is not Dr. Martin Luther King. She is not -- Does not the oration

skills of an Abraham Lincoln. So, at some point, she tried to articulate her position.

When 11 people at some point are coming at you, saying that, "You are wrong. You are wrong. You are wrong," I am guessing she started to shut

down a little bit. I think that most people under those circumstances probably would have.

PINSKY: Absolutely.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

PINSKY: Anahita, I want to get back to those sex tapes. I mean this woman, who we are looking at here, we all know her, she taped these private

conversations. She was responding positively to his overtures. What in the world -- we never satisfactory really answered, what was she up to when

she recorded those things?

SEDAGHATFAR: No one knows. She claimed during the trial that Travis asked her to make those recordings. Obviously, that is not believable, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Of course not.

SEDAGHATFAR: But, I think those tapes certainly are relevant. Because, look, it is the defense attorney`s job in this case, because she is

claiming self-defense --

PINSKY: Wait. I am not saying they should not have been shared in court. I understand they are trying to create mitigating circumstance. But, why

did she do it in the first place? It is like she was building a case against this guy months before she killed him. It is bizarre.

SEDAGHATFAR: I think she was obsessed with him. I think this was kind of like a memoir for her of sorts. Who knows? It is a good thing she did.

It is a good thing, Dr. Drew, she had those tapes, because we know, at least, with the initial jury and now this holdout juror that those tapes

did have an effect. A couple of those jurors believed she was emotionally abused by Travis Alexander.

PINSKY: Or Kinsey was she planning to emotionally abuse him?

SCHOFIELD: Absolutely.

PINSKY: He was an upstanding member of his church. She was going to take these tapes and make them known to everyone if he did not bow to her will?

SCHOFIELD: Yes, I hate to be the queen of the rumor patrol, but if you -- you know, scour the internet at all, you have seen Jodi Arias` brother say

that she made those recordings, so that she could play them for his new or future girlfriends. That is why she made this recording. She was totally

setting him up.

EIGLARSH: You know, Drew --

PINSKY: Mark.

EIGLARSH: Add that to the list of hundreds of things that she did that we all would agree is abhorrent, even the lone holdout juror. The lone

holdout juror is not saying I am in favor of Jodi Arias. No one is. Her behavior is outrageous. It is criminal and she deserves never to see the

light of day, which this judge will ensure everyone of. However --

PINSKY: Will she or will she give her 25 years?

EIGLARSH: Yes.

PINSKY: That is what I am concerned about. You think?

EIGLARSH: No. Hell no.

PINSKY: OK.

EIGLARSH: No. No, no, no, no.

PINSKY: The judge sat through two trials. I think she want to put her weight to do it.

EIGLARSH: No, no, no. And, Kim Kardashian will be someone`s running made for presidency. It is not going to happen. It is theoretically possible.

It is not going to happen. What I am concerned about is that people somehow think that this one juror somehow has sympathy for the actions of

Jodi Arias.

It is very simple. If she was taking copious notes like we just learned she was, she simply felt that those mitigators were stronger than the

aggravators. And, there was one. And, it was especially heinous, atrocious and cruel what she did. But the other things that she was

presented with, she felt tipped the scale in the favor, and that is her right to decide. We can all disagree if we want.

PINSKY: Yes.

EIGLARSH: That is her right.

PINSKY: And, it is done and done, right? I mean there is no going back on this.

EIGLARSH: Over.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes. There is no way that anybody can --

EIGLARSH: No. And, Drew --

PINSKY: Yes?

EIGLARSH: No. If the judge had interfered -- a lot of people are saying, why did the judge step in? Let me tell you something. The only thing

worse than this verdict is if the judge had stepped in.

Judges cannot by law step in and say, "OK. Wait, jurors, how are your deliberations going? You wrote this note that she is not doing this and

this is going on." Short of some clear case of misconduct, which this did not rise to the level of. The judge cannot interfere with jury

deliberations.

PINSKY: I wonder if you guys --

EIGLARSH: The judge did the right thing here.

PINSKY: -- And, I totally agree with you on that front. And, I want to put up the -- control room, please put up for me the cost of this trial,

both these trials. Here it is. Her defense case was $3 million. The prosecution about $133,000. Anahita, the taxpayers have paid enough. Can

this go on further?

SEDAGHATFAR: I am sure she is going to file her appeals, Dr. Drew. That is clear. And, this is why I actually think the prosecution should have

offered her a plea agreement, life without parole. She could have waved her right to appeal.

But, clearly, I think we all saw how passionate Juan Martinez was about this case. And, I think if he were to make that type of plea deal, it

would be a concession on his part that he somehow failed.

And, I think more importantly, the Alexander family, they made it abundantly clear, Dr. Drew, that they wanted to go through with the

retrial. They wanted death for Jodi Arias.

PINSKY: Yes.

SEDAGHATFAR: And, that is why. That is why they have to waste --

PINSKY: Yes. Mark, last thought.

EIGLARSH: One point about finances.

PINSKY: Yes.

EIGLARSH: If she had been sentenced to death, it would have cost three to six times more to execute her, because of all the appeals that go through

state and federal court versus what it is going to cause to house her.

PINSKY: What I think is that is one big bright spot in this entire tragic story, which is that Mark is exactly right. There would have been appeal

upon appeal. There would have been millions and millions of dollars.

She would have virtually, I suspect, the same sort of existence behind bars, perhaps with much more attention. Perhaps, with much more

opportunity for media attention down the road.

Now, people are being much more interested in this case and those appeals to see, "Oh my goodness! Is Jodi Arias finally going to manipulate her way

out of this? Instead, she goes away. We forget about it and that will be that.

Next up, Travis Alexander`s friend, Chris Hughes is here with us. We will get his reaction to the, yet another, hum jury. He lived with this crime

for a long time.

And, later, Travis` sister tweeted that she hopes Jodi burns in hell.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRAVIS: We should get some 69 pics, too.

ARIAS: 69 pics?

TRAVIS: Yes.

ARIAS: How will e do that?

TRAVIS: A timer.

ARIAS: Oh yeah. You are smart!

TRAVIS: And, I will give you some great shots. And freaking put them in (EXPLETIVE WORD). Like the actual putting-it-in- (EXPLETIVE WORD) and like

your reaction. And just the angles -- and the whole bit.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with our behavior bureau. Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal," Spirit, psychotherapist and

here exclusively Chris Hughes, Travis Alexander`s close friend, author of "Our Friend, Travis." Eleven jurors wished to put Jodi Arias to death, but

one juror could not be swayed. Chris, welcome back. What is your reaction?

CHRIS HUGHES, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S CLOSE FRIEND: Thank you, Dr. Drew. You know, it is a disappointment. I do not know what else to say. I mean Jodi

arias worked hard. She earned the death penalty, but she did not get it in this case.

PINSKY: Now, Chris, your name was actually brought up when reporters spoke to jurors earlier today. I want you to take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: What about the e-mail from Chris Hughes? Did that affect you in your feelings towards Travis Alexander? Because

that letter, if you read it in its entirety is actually a very loving letter. The pieces that we saw in the courtroom were the nastiest taken

out of context.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR: That letter what originally what had me very early on -- it was not until the end that I really had changed my mind to

the death penalty. And, that letter was part of what really kind of swayed me that maybe there was an emotional abuse there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Chris, explain to me what they are talking about there.

HUGHES: Yes, well, I am not quite sure. I did hear that in the press conference earlier today. I think the key point in what she is saying is,

it was not until the very end that she, you know, was swayed to give the death penalty, if I heard her correctly.

PINSKY: Yes. That is what she just said.

HUGHES: And, I think that it was in the very end, you know, that she got context. She was able to read the e-mails from start to finish. And, you

read at the very bottom of those e-mails with my wife talks about what a great guy Travis was, that he is a miracle, that she is proud of him, that

he is a good person. And, you know, so, they got that in context and saw it clearly that Travis was not --

PINSKY: And, Chris, as I recall that e-mail, that is something -- a communication you sent after -- if I remember right, you guys were all

sharing a house somewhere and you were trying to get him to recognize what a manipulative, problematic person this was.

And, she was hiding outside the door, listening to you. Was that that episode in your e-mail say, "Hey, guy, we are going to give one more try.

Please, listen to us. Get away from this girl."

HUGHES: Yes. It actually -- No. Those e-mails were before that. We kicked Jodi out of our house in March, April, I believe. But, this e-mail

came -- Jodi, would show up at our house unannounced sometimes. And, she would stay for extended periods of time.

And, it was in one of those visits where she was complaining about Travis. You know, nonstop, and then she went back and told Travis that we were

complaining about Travis, nonstop. And, what we see now with 20/20 hindsight as a sociopath, you know, borderline --

PINSKY: Borderline, yes. Yes.

HUGHES: -- psychopath. Yes. She was isolating Travis Alexander. She was isolating him from the church. She was isolating him from his friends and

from his family, so that she could do what she wanted to do to him and eventually that is what she did.

PINSKY: And, Spirit, you were not with us back in the day when we were originally covering this trial, but Chris has it exactly right. She had

borderline traits where she would engage in this incredible splitting behaviors with everybody. And, she had this sort of psychopathic quality

as well, which is what made her very special.

SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/T.V. HOST: Exactly. I mean and you do not see that with women so often. And, I think that is why America has been

fascinated with this story. But, Chris said it exactly right.

He was like a deer, a baby doe even caught in headlights. And, all she wanted to do was just isolate him from everybody, so that she was the only

person that he trusted. And, unfortunately, he fell victim to it.

PINSKY: And, Danine, here we are again.

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes.

PINSKY: Are you surprised by this?

MANETTE: Not at all. Not in the least. You know, and I do not think that the average person realizes how adversarial and contentious these jury

deliberations can get when you have these high exposure cases like this. I mean these things can get really, really out of control.

And, you know, the fact that they were split down the middle, I am really curious to know why those other five changed their position and at one

point in the deliberation process they did change their position.

PINSKY: We are hearing --

MANETTE: Other than, they were bullied? Were they tired? I mean at what point did they come to the conclusion, all five of them --

PINSKY: It is a great question. It is a great question.

MANETTE: To move over to the other side.

PINSKY: And, I think we will hear about that. If you listen to what the one juror said a moment ago, she was saying it was actually Chris` letter

that she was able to put in context and really kind of look at the whole picture. Jodi is good.

It took us -- if you remember back when we were covering the case, it took us a while to really get our head around and go, "Wait a minute. Oh my

gosh. All these different things." She seems on the surface sympathetic. I do not think of her as a deer in the headlights Danine or is it Spirit

that said deer in highlights. I think it is a spider --

CLANTON: I did not mean her. No. Not her.

PINSKY: Spider. Spider in a web.

CLANTON: She is awesome.

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: Because she was -- I cannot believe that it took you guys time to figure it out. I mean, watching the trial for the first day to watch her

sit and her demeanor.

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANRON: I look and said, "Oh, my goodness. Do you not see who this woman is?" It was fascinating to watch.

PINSKY: It was. It was. That is why we, all, could not take our eyes off it. Travis` sisters were very emotional in the court today. One of them

had a message for Jodi. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TANISHA SORENSON, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S SISTER: The real justice will be in the afterlife when Jodi burns in hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Chris, how is the family doing? Are they OK?

HUGHES: It has been a rough day. But, yes, I mean they are hanging in there. I do not want to speak for them. But, they are hanging in there.

And, you know, it is a disappointment.

PINSKY: We got to -- they have to disengage from this woman. They really do. The system has done what is done. It is disappointing. They have got

to unlock. They are caught in the same web, in a different way, but it is another web that Jodi has woven.

MANETT: But, Dr. Drew, do you think --

HUGHES: Yes, absolutely. You know --

PINSKY: Chris? Please, Chris.

HUGHES: Well, I wanted to make the comment, you know? And, maybe I mentioned this when I was on the show before, but the world met Jodi Arias

as a murder. Sky and I and everybody else, we met her according to Travis in the early days of their relationship as the nicest person he had ever

met.

So, it took us a little while to figure out who and what she was. But, you know what? A woman`s intuition is strong. And, my wife had this feeling -

- this gut feeling very, very early, almost from the beginning that Jodi was dangerous.

PINSKY: I rememnber she said the hair stood up on the back of her neck.

PINSKY: Danine, you are trying to say something there?

MANETTE: Yes. You know, and I think that this family feels like Jodi just keeps winning.

PINSKY: Yes.

MANETTE: I think that they feel like she just keeps manipulating. She just keeps coming out on top and getting her way and they are sick of it.

I think that, that is the impetus behind their emotions.

PINSKY: You know -- You are right and they loved to see disclosed and done with her demise. But listen, think about, Danine, what they would have

been going through if all the appeals and all the high profiles -- I think it might have been worse. I think when the day is done --

MANETTE: It would have been worse.

PINSKY: I hope they will look at this as a blessing. It is just put her away. Be done with it. Disengage. Disengage. Spirit, how do we help

them?

CLANTON: You know -- but I think it is interesting, and that is my question. Will we ever really be able to see this family get peace?

Because, Dr. Drew, for lifetimes after this, this woman is go -- you are talking books. You are talking TV shows. Will this family ever have

closure? I do not think that they will.

PINSKY: All right. Next up, one of my jurors was inside the courtroom today as events unfolded. She will be here.

And, later, did those gruesome autopsy photos have any effect on the holdout juror? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What is your opinion of Jodi Arias?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR (1): I actually think she is a psychopath it has been waiting to happen. Whether it came out with Travis or not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR (2): I think she is an awful person. I think she is terrible. I think she is terrible for putting Travis down the way

that she did. If I had something to say to her, I would ask -- I mean now that the death penalty is off the chart for her, you know, at least give

that family the truth of what really happened.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with our behavior bureau, Danine, Spirit, Katie Wick back, one of the jurors who attended -- my juror who attended the first trial

every day. Katie, what do you think of this juror who refuse, who held out?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW`S JUROR: It is really frustrating, Dr. Drew. I was getting ready to actually go to an evidence class at my school today. And,

I had my T.V. on right before the verdict came in, and I just broke down.

Because I remember the first time they had a hung jury sitting with the family, and it feels like somebody kicks you in your stomach. It knocks

the wind out of you. And, if I felt that way, I cannot imagine what Travis`s family and friends are going through.

PINSKY: But, Katie, I want to interrupt you. I just think this is going to be better for them in the long run. They are not going to be the high-

profile appeals. It is not going to be all the tightrope walks of, is Jodi going to get an appeal. Is it successful or not? Just put her away and

forget it and disengage from this woman. Do you think they can do that?

WICK: I do not think they will ever be able to fully disengage, but I understand where you are coming from. And, I have a friend who her sister

was killed very much like Travis was. And, she said in the long run, it is probably going to be better for the family, because this gal is 20 years

later. She is still dealing with appeals. And, she is still having to see --

PINSKY: That is somebody on the death row?

WICK: It is. Right. Well, here is the thing. I am halfway through law school. I am almost 50 percent there and I am starting to think a little

bit differently as far as the law goes.

But, I think maybe what we need is a life row where one, maybe is not necessarily put to death, if that is the problem that juries have or one

person in the jury and you cannot get a unanimous verdict, put them on death row. Just do not kill them.

PINSKY: Well, as a new lawyer, Katie, take your enthusiasm and maybe you become a legislator. You figure that one out. That is above my pay grade

right now. Spirit, I want to play something for you.

You were not with us when we were having the conversations about Jodi and Travis. And, you say you could tell just by looking at her in the room.

The rest of us took a few days to really come around to the depth of her pathology.

CLANTON: Yes.

PINSKY: I just thought it was a straight-up borderline in a borderline rage. But then we found -- Oh, no, no, no there is some psychopathic

tendencies here.

CLANTON: For sure.

PINSKY: And, now, you have somebody -- I mean it is hard to think about the mindset of Jodi-Alexander during this tape I am about to play for you.

She is pretending to be aroused by what Travis` saying. All the while knowing she is taping him and building a case against him.

I mean that is sort of -- That psychopathic meta-thinking, manipulation. It is almost hard to put yourself in that position. Because to us, we are

just listening to this conversation, but she is the one eavesdropping. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, JODI`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I am going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE WORD) all the way.

ARIAS: Oh, my gosh. That is so debasing. I like it.

(LAUGHING)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARIAS: I am game for almost everything you come up with. But, you really are a well-spring of ideas.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARIAS: You know what I really liked is when we were in the bath with the candles and I had the braids?

ALEXANDER: Hmmm mmm.

ARIAS: And the bubbles on top of --

ALEXANDER: Oh, I love the braids.

ARIAS: I know those are hot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Spirit, it is debasing but I like it. And, then yet at the same time, she is recording all that. What is she up to here?

CLANTON: No. And, see, that is not even that. She is baiting him the entire time by giving him the feedback. You are a wealth of information.

You -- I like your ideas. So, basically, what she is saying is give me more, give me more, because I know I am taping this. So, give me more of

you.

I am going to just keep -- whatever else you got, come on. Because she knew that somewhere down the line, she would use this in order to defame

him, in order to shame him and be able to manipulate him because he would never want this to be seen or hear by anybody.

PINSKY: And, there you go, Danine. That is the depths of how manipulative this woman is.

MANETTE: But, see, I do not agree with that. I think that -- I have always thought she was just a freak, right?

PINSKY: Yes?

MANETTE: And, I think that she is one of those people, who records things so she can listen to it over again, so that she can get off. I have serial

killers who take pictures of the body after they pose them.

CLANTON: No.

MANETTE: Because they want to relive that moment over and over again. I think that she is of the mindset that she wants to just re-stimulate

herself and live this over and over again by hearing it and seeing it and feeling it.

CLANTON: No.

MANETTE: And doing whatever.

PINSKY: After she kills him?

CLANTON: She is not getting off on it. There is no pleasure there.

MANETTE: It is up until that point.

CLANTON: There is nothing that is happening.

MANETTE: Up until that point.

CLANTON: No. It is the narcissist. It is the narcissism in her that says, "Look at how I am manipulating you. Look at how I am the puppet

master, making this god boy do all of these things."

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: "I cannot wait to be able to use this."

MANETTE: See. I think she wanted to hear it again. I think she just wanted to play it to self-stimulate.

CLANTON: She did.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Listen, I think --

CLANTON: There is no sexuality there.

PINSKY: I think I have difficulty thinking the way either of you think. It is such depravity on either -- Not that you are depraved, but the person

we are trying to describe here is deeply depraved. And, in either case, it is not good for Jodi Arias.

We do not have any alternative interpretation of her behavior other than really severe psychopathy where she gets off on the entirety of this --

what she has created here, which my head does not even go there. Danine, as usual, dropping the bomb in the middle of the conversation.

Or as we had postulated her in the first trial, borderline personality disorder, emotional chaos, splitting behaviors, isolating Travis and then

the psychopathy of getting her way no matter what.

Next up, we will re-visit the crime scene and autopsy photos. Why was not that enough to sway that juror? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIEID MALE SPEAKER: You will see a slit through the throat. And, you will see all of the stab wounds on Travis` back. And, you will also

see the shot to the right temple of his face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR (1): If that does not change your mind, we are all personally scarred from that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR (2): Viewing the photos, listening to all the content -- it will remain with you for the rest of your life. And

nightmares, we have had nightmares.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR (1): That was my last thought last night. I went to close my eyes and that was the picture I saw.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam Schacher from Pop Trigger on Hulu.com. Danine Manette still here. Dr. Bill Lloyd, surgeon and pathologist. Jurors tried

to sway that holdout jurors by laying out all those gruesome crime scene photos right there in the jury room. You heard them. They are still

haunted by the images, but still that juror could not be moved.

Dr. Lloyd, this to me -- that one autopsy photo that the public is really not seeing, it is available of course online. We were not able to show it

here. It was too gruesome. But, the one of the throat slitting, tells you everything you need to know.

I mean it just tells you the brutality, the violence. And, then you have to remind yourself, she stabbed him 20 times on top of it and shot him

also. It is incredible. Why was not this woman swayed?

DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON/PATHOLOGIST: Forensic information is just one component of the prosecution, Drew. For some people it is very

illuminating. They want to see the weapon. They want to see the blood. They want to see all the photographs.

Other people want to hear verbal testimony. They really do not want to connect with the reality of the gross images. And, for some people it can

isolate them. You brought up a very important point, though, that Jodi was responsible for killing Travis at least twice.

Maybe three times with the 30 stab wounds, then the slash to the neck and then of course then the gunshot wound to the head. Justice is messy just

like murder. This woman murdered Travis twice. She had three trials, including two penalty retrials, and justice was served.

PINSKY: Well, I guess we have to look at it that way. Sam, I heard you sigh. Did you ever see the picture of the throat?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER": No. I will not. I will absolutely not see that picture, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I am telling you -- you almost have an obligation to look at it. If you have any doubts about this woman, when you see the violence in that

one blow -- it was just violent.

SCHACHER: I do not need to see that photo. I think Jodi Arias is a monster. And, I think her crime warrants the death penalty, Dr. Drew.

And, I blame judge Stephens. I think enough already. She has not been able to contain this circus from day one. Mistrial after mistrial.

Why the hell was this -- I do not even blame the juror. Why was this lone juror still on the jury when the other jurors had said, we believe that she

has some sort of bias. We believe that she already had her mind made up. She saw this lifetime movie. Is not that enough to warrant a dismissal?

PINSKY: I am going to sick Mark Eiglarsh on you. He was all over me for saying things like that. We have to be careful that we are going to taint

people is ability to -- Danine, you are laughing at that. We are going to somehow erode people`s ability to be on a jury and be honest on the jury.

SCHACHER: I am not talking about the juror.

MANETTE: I agree with Mark Eiglarsh, and I do understand that, yes, her crime was heinous and yes, a lot of people believe that she should have

gotten the death penalty.

But, I do not think she is the only juror that may have walked in there with her mind already made up. I think several of the other ones did also.

Like I said, I am wondering how much bullying and stuff may have gone into those other five jurors jumping the fence.

And, if they wanted to make sure that she was locked up forever and they never had to deal with her again then maybe the other 11 should have

elected to go with life without possibility of parole and then we could be done with her for good.

PINSKY: Sam --

SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew --

MANETTE: They could have gone that way if they wanted to, but if she had gotten death penalty, this would have continued for another 20 to 25 years.

PINSKY: Absolutely. That is the thing I am grateful we are not seeing. We have to keep that in mind. It seems that somehow it would have been

gratifying if she had been giving the death penalty, but I think that is an error. Sam, I am a little confused. You were saying it is not the juror?

SCHACHER: I was not blaming the juror. I am blaming the judge here. It is the judge`s job to control all this. Why is she waiting 30-something

days now? But, why can she not lay down the law and say, we are going to - - i thought about this for -- since 2008. I am going to give you the verdict now. Why do we wait another month? This poor family, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I know.

SCHACHER: How much more can the Alexander family emotionally take?

PINSKY: Listen, Sam, I am so with you on this. I remember last time going through it, I remember the feelings of had for this family. I did not walk

away with those feelings.

These people walk around like that and they have been ripped open again. They got to disengage from this woman. She is continuing to do -- to

terrorize them in her own way from these repetitive traumas. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE JUROR: Even when she was up there testifying, it was so forced. It was rehearsed. It was not -- There was no actual pain

there. So, no, I do not think that she would have been able to convince us that she actually felt bad because she does not have remorse.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: With Sam, Danine and Dr. Bill Lloyd. And, Twitter does not -- our Twitter viewers is disappointed, guys. Look at this one. This is from

Barbara. "She slit his throat because she was enrage after he told her he was taking someone else to Cabo, heinous but should be a lesson." Sam, it

should be a lesson to man, I guess.

SCHACHER: Should be a lesson? I do not know. I do not think taking a chick to Cabo should warrant any type of violence, whatsoever.

PINSKY: Danine -- Danine, do we have another Jodi Arias in the making here?

(LAUGHING)

MANETTE: Yes, that is a little extreme. But, you asked the question about why was it the pictures did not encourage that juror to change her mind.

It depends on what her disgust threshold was. I mean you could show me pictures of ten people run over by train and I would not flinched, because

of all I have seen.

PINSKY: Yes.

MANETTE: Yes. So, maybe she had a different disgust threshold and it did not affect her.

PINSKY: Well, it is not the disgusting so much, Danine, it is just the magnitude of the violence that went into the movement. I mean Dr. Lloyd,

maybe I am misreading what I am seeing there, but you have seen these pictures. I mean this looks like a 250-pound man cut the guy`s throat.

DR. LLOYD: Yes. The risk with that, of course, is then you numb the jury. They showed her and all the other jurors an awful lot of information. And,

it can be so graphic that they actually turn on.

MANETTE: Right.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

MANETTE: Right.

PINSKY: The Arizona prison director told officers, this is -- this kills me, to, quote, "Keep their distance from Jodi to avoid being manipulated by

her." Samantha, she is so dangerous that professionals -- and Danine, you are laughing at this. I will give you a chance to respond. But, it is

very telling, I think.

SCHACHER: Yes. Her weapon is manipulation.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: Have we not seen that? Did you see how she manipulated the first trial and the second trial and the men.

PINSKY: And, as Barb says, do not take another girl out. And, surely do not take her out of the country, because you know this stuff can happen.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: Danine. Danine.

MANETTE: I think that is the basis of why people wanted her to get the death penalty. Because they think she is going to open up some type of

boutique in the prison system.

PINSKY: Yes. That is right.

MANETTE: Or, you know, have some type of online business and they just do not want her to be able to manipulate the rest of the world and the system.

PINSKY: Yes.

MANETTE: The way that she has been allowed to do.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. The jurors --

DR. LLOYD: It sounds very satisfying --

PINSKY: What is that, Sam?

DR. LLOYD: It sounds satisfying to ask for the death penalty. But, the reality is, it will not bring about any healing. Time will bring healing.

PINSKY: You know, Dr. Lloyd --

DR. LLOYD: Needs closure.

PINSKY: -- Dr. Lloyd, I completely agree with you. Not only time but -- time away from engagement with this woman and her craziness. This family

has got to disengage, move away, get on with their lives, heal and let this woman stew in her own hell.

And, as the one sister said, she will burn in hell. There will be a reckoning day for her. It may not be exactly what you imagined it to be

here on this planet, but there will be a day of reckoning. Danine, how do we get people to do that, to understand that, that they need to just get

away from this person?

MANETTE: She needs to go away. As soon as we can get this over with and hopefully the judge will sentence her to life without possibility of

parole, and we are done with her. We can turn her off. We can stop paying attention to her. We can get her out of our lives and off our televisions.

And, then she can be effectively dead to the rest of the world.

PINSKY: And, Sam, one last thing. That Barb has now responded on Twitter. She said, "No. You misunderstood the lesson is to men" -- yes, watch out

men -- I do not condone what she did, but people are overlooking how he used to -- I cannot say what that is. I do not know what that is.

SCHACHER: That is Twitter for you, Dr. Drew. You can misconstrue any of that.

PINSKY: Well, I do not think I did, actually.

SCHACHER: Look at the context.

PINSKY: I do not think I did.

SCHACHER: OK.

PINSKY: I think she said, "Beware, men, you can really make women angry. And, there is no telling what you might be dealing with." In a way, this

is that story. If you misjudge somebody, there is no telling what you can get into. Thanks, panel. DVR us, then you can of course watch us any

time. "Forensic Files" up next and begins immediately.

END