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CNN NEWSROOM

Cleveland Blames Tamir Rice for Own Death; Iraqis Fight to Take Back Tikrit from ISIS; ISIS Threatens Twitter Founder, Employees; Suspicions Raised after Boris Nemtsov Murder in Russia; Interview with Mikhail Saakashvili.

Aired March 2, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, NANCY GRACE: Now, remember, this young boy, he's 12, but he's 5'7" and weighs 195 pounds. Now, at a distance, you might think he's grown. But that close, couldn't they tell? He's a cop. They pull up. You're showing this in slow mo. In reality, the cops pull up and he gets shot within two seconds of the car pulling up. So there's no time unless they did it over the car's loud speaker, for this child to have been told to put the gun down. Now, at the police --

(CROSSTALK)

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Why does the city come out and say it's his own fault? Why use such aggressive language?

GRACE: Because this is a civil lawsuit. This is about money. This is not a criminal case -- what they were talking about right now. And it's the city's duty, they think, I guess, to defend the lawsuit. They're saying it is Tamir's fault because it looked like a real gun. It looked like a Berretta .9. The orange safety indicator that's on toys had been removed. Somebody had called the police earlier from this park and said somebody here is pointing a gun at people, but what they also added was it's a kid and he may be pretending. We think it's a toy gun. That was probably relayed to cops. And this cop, Lowman, is the shooter. I have a problem with Lowman. Whether this shooting is decided not to be or to be a crime, Lowman is here working for Cleveland P.D., but he got let go or quit --

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: He's the officer for -- just to let our viewers know, he's the officer who shot and killed Tamir Rice.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: His past is in question.

GRACE: He got let go from the Bourbon (ph) Police Department for inability to handle a firearm. Not only that, he's at the gun range practicing and gets weepy. OK?

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: So, Nancy, I'm hearing you say that you believe -- you believe the family has a pretty strong argument in their lawsuit.

GRACE: Well, I think they do have a very strong argument. Now, on the other hand, the cops pull up, all they know is somebody's pointing a gun at other people at a park. According to them, they told him to drop the gun. They didn't know he was a kid, and so they fired. What it's going to boil down to is eyewitness testimony about did they tell him to drop the gun or not?

CABRERA: All right. Nancy Grace, we'll end it there. Thanks so much.

Watch Nancy on HLN, weeknights at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.

GRACE: Thank you.

CABRERA: Up next, with social media sites attempting to crackdown on ISIS propaganda, the terror group is now threatening a new target, employees of Twitter.

Plus, a large-scale operation is now under way for control of Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. Can Iraq's embattled military push ISIS out? CNN's Ben Wedeman is live in Iraq with an update. Stay with us.

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CABRERA: This could be the biggest test yet for the Iraqi army and the U.S.-led coalition, retaking the city of Tikrit from the grips of ISIS.

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CABRERA: The Iraqi army alongside both Sunni and Shiite militiamen are attacking ISIS strongholds near the city, all part of a wide-scale offensive using both ground and air support. And this is significant because Tikrit fell under ISIS control way back in June after the capture of Mosul. Now, the city is best known as the birthplace of Saddam Hussein. It's one of the largest cities held by ISIS right now, and lies just 80 miles north of the capital, Baghdad.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Ben Wedeman, is joining me from Irbil, Iraq.

This isn't the first attack to recapture Tikrit. What makes officials more confident this time?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this time they've really thrown almost everything they've got at it. There are 30,000 troops who are approaching Tikrit from the north, the south, and the northeast. They are using their aircraft, their helicopters. And this is a force not simply the Iraqi army, as you mentioned. This is Shia militiamen and Sunni tribesmen. It's very important that the Sunni tribesmen are involved because Tikrit, a city of around 200,000 people, is predominantly Sunni, and they are naturally mistrustful of the Shia-dominated government in Baghdad as well as the Shia-dominated army. And so they may play sort of a pacifying role if and when Iraqi forces get into the city.

Now, we hear that they are approaching, that they've already taken some land to the south of there. They claim that they've inflicted casualties on ISIS and they are continuing to push forward.

And as you mentioned, it is an important test because some of these troops we believe have been recently trained by the United States and we'll see if they fair any better than the previously U.S.-trained Iraqi army that fled from Mosul and Tikrit last June -- Ana?

CABRERA: Ben, real quickly, I want to ask you about -- we're learning of an Iranian general who is there in the ground battling ISIS with Iraqi forces battling ISIS.And, given the history of Iraq and Iran, I mean, how big of a role is Iran playing on the ground there with Iraqi military men and women?

WEDEMAN: It does appear -- I don't think there are any women fighting in the Iraqi army.

CABRERA: I suppose not. No.

WEDEMAN: It does appear this man, Sulamani, who is the head of the elite Iranian force, is on the ground outside Tikrit. Now, according to the semi-official Iranian news agency, he's there to oversee this operation. He's done it before, if you recall, last year when Kurdish forces and Iraqi army forces took the town of Armeli (ph) from ISIS. He was also there on the ground. He's a man, very powerful, very experienced in this area. And he does seem to be playing a rather significant role on the ground -- Ana?

CABRERA: Interesting.

Ben Wedeman, in Irbil, thank you.

Now, law enforcement, journalists, even Pope Francis, the list of those threatened by ISIS is becoming a lengthy one. And now Twitter founder, Jack Dorsey, can add his name to this list. In a post in an online forum, self-identified ISIS supporters drew an illustration of Dorsey in crosshairs and offered this message. It says, quote, "You started this last war. We told you from the beginning that it's not your war, but you didn't understand and closed down our accounts. We'll come back, but when our lone lions silence your breath, you won't come back," end quote.

Now, Twitter's terms of service forbids hate speech, threats and posts that promote terrorism, and the social media site has been actively trying to take down accounts tied to ISIS.

So let's talk more about this with Clint Watts, former FBI special agent, and senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute.

Clint, how does Twitter actually go and track the ISIS propaganda?

CLINTON WATTS, SENIOR FELLOW, FOREIGN POLICY RESEARCH INSTITUTE & FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, there's a couple ways. Traditionally, what we see is users will report terrorist accounts or terrorist-supporting accounts for violation of terms of service, meaning they make a threat of violence against somebody. What we're seeing now is thousands of accounts being taken down all at once which suggests they're picking up on the actual content, uplink, uploads coming from the accounts and using the technical measures to identify them across their entire platform. What you're seeing instead of one account going down here, one there, you're seeing thousands of them going down at one time. The first assault we've seen from Twitter against the ISIS accounts en mass.

CABRERA: You said this has been happening the last couple of days. What was the impetus of Twitter finally taking this kind of action?

WATTS: That's right. Twitter has gotten beat up compared to other social media companies. Facebook and YouTube got on the bandwagon early about fighting terrorists on their platforms and Twitter sort of waited. We're seeing Twitter, after a lot of pressure, decide they're going to take an aggressive effort. That is because Twitter is probably the key platform for networking both ISIS members and their supporters all around the globe.

CABRERA: This threat we just read made by ISIS supporters against Jack Dorsey, other employees of Twitter, what do you make of it? How serious or real of a threat is this?

WATTS: I'd like to say that it's not that serious. I don't really think anyone's at jeopardy. But then in the post-"Charlie Hebdo" era, after we saw what happened in the Paris attacks, the groups affected the do-it-yourself jihad model, where they put out a targeted list, and an inspired supporter, totally unidentified to law enforcement, can pick up a weapon and carry out the attack for them. You want to discount it, but you've seen what can happen in Paris.

CABRERA: Very quickly, what's the best response by the Twitter?

WATTS: I think the best response by Twitter is keep doing what they're doing. I think if you really cave into their demands -- I mean, why would you let a terrorist group threaten you for your platform for what you're doing and then back down? I think they should keep up with what their plans are. It's going to have a serious affect on ISIS' ability to really rally their supporters.

CABRERA: We'll see.

Clint Watts, thanks for your insight.

WATTS: Thank you.

CABRERA: Up next, murder mystery in the shadows of the Kremlin. Who assassinated one of Vladimir Putin's most outspoken critics? We'll talk to someone who had just spoken with Boris Nemtsov, someone who also went to war against the Russian President. The former president of Georgia joins me on set next.

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CABRERA: Rampant speculation and wild rumors are spreading through Moscow days after a high-profile critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin was gunned down right outside the Kremlin walls. Boris Nemtsov was a former deputy prime minister-turned opposition leader and was shot to death Friday night while walking with his girlfriend across the bridge in front of the Kremlin. Putin's critics are furious, some questioning his own possible involvement. But he has condemned the shooting. He's pledged to find the gunman. He's ordered an investigation. In fact, three different investigations.

Before we discuss further, I want you to hear from Boris Nemtsov in his own words. Nemtsov shared a meal with CNN's Anthony Bourdain in which he said Vladimir Putin has overseen a rise in corruption.

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ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN HOST, PARTS UNKNOWN (on camera): So we were to be dining in another restaurant this evening, but when they heard you were joining me, and we were uninvited. Should I be concerned having dinner with you?

BORIS NEMTSOV, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER: This is a country of corruption. If you're in business, you're in a very unsafe situation. Everybody can press you and destroy your business. This is a system.

BOURDAIN: Critics of the government, critics of Putin, bad things happen to them.

NEMTSOV: Yes. Unfortunately, existing power represent what I say Russia of 19th century, not of 21st.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Joining me now, Mikhail Saakashvili, the former president of the Republic of Georgia. He's also serving on the advisory council to the President Petro Poroshenko is the Ukrainian issues that are ongoing.

Thank you for joining me.

MIKHAIL SAAKASHVILI, FORMER PRESIDENT, REPUBLIC OF GEORGIA: Thank you for having me on your show.

CABRERA: I know you knew Boris Nemtsov personally. You talked to him, in fact, days before his death. What did he share with you?

SAAKASHVILI: We discussed Ukraine because he was preparing his report on Ukraine, but then when I showed up at the lunch, he asked why I was without bodyguards. He told me, remember, like after he knew the story when Putin promised to hang me by different parts of my body, he said, "Never, ever go anywhere without bodyguards.

CABRERA: Wow.

SAAKASHVILI: Here he was walking into the center of Moscow at night without any bodyguards, without any protection. It's sad. It's tragic. It's also true if you look carefully, he's one of many that have died in this kind of circumstances. The list is getting longer and longer.

CABRERA: He was talking to you, maybe jokingly talking about your safety, the threat against you. Was he afraid of being targeted?

SAAKASHVILI: I think he was aware of the issues. I was asking whether he was worried to go back to Moscow. He wasn't afraid of arrests. I told him he should be afraid of other things. He seemed to agree to that.

Look, I mean, look at the -- Anna (INAUDIBLE), who was also killed in downtown Moscow, I knew her very well. Just spoke, just before she was killed, to her. Then you have the whole people, people who Putin hated most of all in Europe, like President Kaczynski of Poland. I'm not claiming they were killed by Putin or killed in the first place. There were some circumstances that were questionable. But the idea -- this looks weird -- that basically all these people whom Putin had had extensive hate, they all perished in outright criminal circumstances. When you're dealing with mafia state, it's no longer surprising. The whole climate, the way how they award killers, how they encourage killings, that's hardly surprising. I'm surprised Nemtsov was killed now.

CABRERA: I want to ask you about the timing. Why now, if indeed this conspiracy theory were to prove true. You mentioned you were talking with Nemtsov about Ukrainian issues, ongoing fighting in eastern Ukraine, which we know has taken the lives of thousands just since mid-April.

SAAKASHVILI: Well, one basically can speculate that with the falling oil prices and with the sharply declining living standards. We also discussed it with Boris, people like Nemtsov who didn't seem terribly dangerous to the regime like a couple years ago have become more dangerous now. Whoever did it maybe had this here in their mind. Otherwise Ukrainian situation casts a big shadow because there's a big key moment right now. Important decisions need to be taken about Ukraine. Truth has to be broken also to the Russian public --

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Did he have some truths that the world was going to learn about?

SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean, I don't -- the world only knows most of the facts.

CABRERA: Yeah.

SAAKASHVILI: I think Russian public is brainwashed and basically are not informed of those facts. The way that's how the system works. Even since taking the basic facts in Russia become very dangerous. Regarding whether Ukraine -- there's two things. In Russia, the truth is not known. To the rest of the world, the truth is known but enough action is not taken. I think from both regards, Putin is working in all directions, not to allow Russian people to know the whole truth, and not to allow at least the free world, the Western world and United States, to take right decision and to react in a right way to outright Russian aggression in Ukraine.

CABRERA: And, perhaps, if that's the case, that explains his approval rating at 86 percent we learned just in the last month.

SAAKASHVILI: Look, this is more tragic. I feel more tragic about what will happen in reaction to Ukraine here, saying United States, going around trying to tell people about it. You know, I sit in the office of Poroshenko every day, gets news of new deaths, new casualties, terrorist attacks, new attacks from the Russian side. I see also, hear every day world leaders calling. They're calling. There's too much calls. There's too much calls. Not enough help coming in. Ukraine gave up, in the '90s, several thousand nuclear warheads as friend of the United States. They're just asking for several thousand anti-tank missiles, for God's sake, to be able to send up to this aggression. So that's a very key moment. What's happening in Russia, Russia is projecting a fortune, but also even more outside Russia. People around Russia are scared. And we need to, the free world, to react because it's also what's at stake. Not just Ukraine or individual people like Nemtsov or any of us. Basically, it's what's at stake here, the idea of free world, justice.

CABRERA: And that's why you're here in the U.S., in fact, right now, to make your case on behalf of the Ukrainians to Congress this week on Wednesday.

Before we let you go, I want to play a sound --

(CROSSTALK)

SAAKASHVILI: Hearing in the Senate committee, yeah, on the war in Ukraine. I hope it will cast some light on what's happening.

CABRERA: I do want to play some sound from Nemtsov's girlfriend, who was with him at the time he was killed, just to bring this full circle as we're continuing to follow the investigation into the death of Boris Nemtsov. She had a chance to speak today and said she did not get a good look at the gunman.

Let's play it for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED NEWS ANCHOR (through translation): Where did Boris' killer appear from?

ANNA DURITSKAYA, GIRLFRIEND OF BORIS NEMTSOV (through translation): I don't know. I didn't see because this was happening behind my back.

UNIDENTIFIED NEWS ANCHOR (through translation): By description, did this person react to your request immediately or started calling?

DURITSKAYA (through translation): When I turned, I only saw a light colored car, but I didn't see the make or number of the car that was leaving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Mr. Saakashvili, in 10 seconds, is she in danger now?

SAAKASHVILI: I think -- well, I guess she's leaving Russia now for Ukraine. The reality is that basically the climate of intimidation is so much present everywhere in today's Russia.

Look, most of the opposition figures either are gone or are in prison or are dead like Nemtsov. What kind of country is that? It's becoming really a very, very dangerous place for itself, for its own citizens and also for the rest of the world.

CABRERA: Thank you so much for being here.

SAAKASHVILI: Thank you so much.

CABRERA: Thanks for your time. We appreciate it.

Coming up, with all eyes on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu here in Washington right now, how might his speech to Congress tomorrow impact the high-stakes nuclear negotiations happening with Iran right now?

We are also just minutes away from an LAPD news conference after the shooting death of a homeless man. Stay with us.

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