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CNN NEWSROOM

Llama Drama in the Streets of Sun City, Arizona; Leonard Nimoy Dies; Jihadi John Identified

Aired February 27, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: This is an Arab fight, this is a fight within the world of Islam. He wants the international community to help to be involved, to support moderate Arab states like his.

You know, he's been there from the start. It is true that Jordan ramped up after the horrific death of the pilot, but the Jordanians have been on the front lines of this fight. The Egyptians are now joining in, trying to get the Turks more involved. He's been running around like crazy. The day before he met with me, he was in Saudi Arabia. The hour after he met with me he was going to Egypt. So he is trying to put together a coalition. And what he wants is support. He doesn't want American ground troops in Syria.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: He doesn't want America to come in and try to make something happen. It needs to happen more organically within the region which, of course, it complicated.

ZAKARIA: And, by the way, well, it means if America were to jump in and send ground troops, he is aware that that's what ISIS want. That that would then be a great recruiting tool for ISIS to say we're battling the crusaders. Come and join in that fight.

It really should be a fight where the Sunni Arab states particularly take the lead. And so he understands that it's an ideological fight, it is a political fight, it is a military fighting. And all that can really only be done by the locals.

CABRERA: And on that note, the dynamics in the region are still very complicated. It seems so obvious why wouldn't they be united against ISIS, and yet we know our Becky Anderson talked with Libya's ambassador to the UAE. And listen to what she talked about with Libya's role in all this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AREF ALI NAYED, LIBYAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES: It is a country that, instead of bending itself, has become the ATM machine, the gas station and the platform for ISIS an increasing menace not only to Libya and our neighbors but also our neighbors to the north and cross the Mediterranean.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Why would other countries in that region be supporting ISIS? ZAKARIA: It's not so much that other countries are supporting it.

Here's the way it works. There are a lot of countries where, like in Libya, the government has collapsed. There really is no government. In other places the government, doesn't want to take the lead because they're fearful that there may be elements of the population that support it. They don't want to cross certain religious leaders who might have some sympathies. It's really a lack of leadership.

You know, in Jordan, you have the perfect situation. You have a strong leader with a vision who also has fairly good control over his country and can lead it. The country is increasingly unified behind him. Those conditions do not apply almost everywhere else.

The Saudis are very passive. Libya doesn't really have a government of any kind. So it has fallen to Jordan and the king of Jordan to really be the pivotal figure in all of this.

CABRERA: Then there's Qatar, too, who has played a crucial role.

ZAKARIA: Crucial and utterly irresponsible role where they have been funding.

CABRERA: Who has been criticizing even the U.S. just this week for the coalition saying the U.S. isn't doing enough. But yet, as you point out, they fund terrorism.

ZAKARIA: They fund lots of things. The Qataris are like some rich guy that goes into a casino and decides to put, you know, plays roulette and puts bets on 14 numbers. So that whatever happens, they'll be all right. That's what they are doing. They fund the Muslim brotherhood. They fund, you know, all kinds of strange groups. They also support the United States. They have -- America has a base in Qatar.

So they're sort of hedging their bets in a big way so that no matter what happens, they will continue to have influence. That's why they pay for that. It's all designed to put, you know, to put them in a position where they're a big player.

So again, in case like Qatar, the strategy is so bizarre and incoherent, that you don't know what they're doing, but at the end of the day, it's very irresponsible.

CABRERA: Does King Abdullah, and based on your own understanding of the region, do you all believe that there's some unification amongst some of these different religious or ethnics sects are making up some of the areas where the conflict is taking place, for example, in Iraq where you have the Shias, the Sunnis, the Kurds, is there a unification among those different groups?

ZAKARIA: That's a good question. I mean, really fundamentally the question is, are the Sunnis coming together against ISIS? Because what ISIS preys on is the idea that in Iraq and in Syria, particularly, the Sunnis have been disempowered.

And you are beginning to see some, you know, the Sunni is saying we don't want these guys to be representing us and the Shia in Iraq are supporting them and the Kurds are supporting them. So the national unity you're looking for that you are asking about is beginning to happen. Not as fast as we'd like, not as much as we'd like. But that's exactly what the king of Jordan is trying to sort of bring about, to create an Arab coalition, a Muslim coalition that takes on this Muslim problem rather than have the United States come in from 6,000 miles away and try to solve the problem, which has not tended to work over the last ten years.

CABRERA: All right, Fareed Zakaria, thank you. We appreciate you coming in.

ZAKARIA: Pleasure.

CABRERA: You can watch Fareed's full interview with Jordan's King Abdullah on "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" that airs Sunday at 10:00 a.m. eastern.

Stay with us. Up next, we can now put a name to the chilling person we've seen in these ISIS images. The man known as jihadi John, who is he? How did he end up as one of the most infamous killers in the world? And how could this help in the fight against ISIS? Could a name help bring this alleged killer to justice?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Thanks for staying with us.

In a week consumed by unmasking ISIS, dried up homeland security fund, train derailments, was there ever better a palate cleanser than the llama drama? Of course, if you were watching this program around this time yesterday, you likely witnessed one of the more bizarre moments, you could say, that we've seen in a long time here on CNN.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

CABRERA: It is just a bizarre scene. And they keep getting away from these guys who are trying to catch them. Moving slowly. And we'll see here if they're able to get them. But no, sure enough. That's what happens.

Well, we now know those runaways were visiting an assisted living facility when something apparently spooked them and the result, they took off running through the streets of Sun City, Arizona.

We all watched as they woe in and out of traffic, in and out of people's arms for more than two hours before they were actually caught. This scene captivated not only us here at CNN but social media. Lots of llama means, people really just kind of having fun with it. Like this one channeling the infamous Thelma and Louise. There was Beyonce and Jay-Z's on the run tour mentioned. One of the men who actually captured one of the escapees called it quite the event.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wore me out. Plum tuckered me out about 25 minutes of trying to catch these things. But at one point we almost had them pinned in a cornered lot with a fence around it. So we tried to pin it to that. And it almost worked bud they escaped that one. My brother handed off his rope to this one guy that was able to lasso the first llama, the black one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Despite the amusement there was, of course, a potentially serious side to what happened yesterday. It could have ended much differently. Why did it take so long to catch them? Well, let's try to get to the bottom of this.

Joining me now is Arizona's Maricopa County sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Sheriff, thanks for being here. Have you guys ever dealt with something quite like this?

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Not really. We seized a hundred animals in a animal cruelty case. We got a llama. This it must be the month of the llamas for my office. But no, we haven't chased llamas. We chase cars and try to protect the people. This is unusual. But it did end in a very, very happy and successful way.

CABRERA: Absolutely. So let's see us in on how you all got involved.

ARPAIO: Well, we got the 911 call. We sent our deputy sheriffs try to track these animals down. It wasn't easy. Private citizens joined the fight and they roped the animals, and now they are put back into custody. But this is unusual for Sun City. We're usually chasing cars and fighting crime. Here we are chasing llamas all over the place.

CABRERA: I mean, is there even a protocol in trying to capture these? Was tranquilizers, was that brought up at any point?

ARPAIO: Well, fortunately not. It did not reach that stage. But fortunately, as I said again, everything turned out OK. But it did make a lot of news. And you know, Sun City's a retirement community. So I'm glad that they had a little fun, too. As I say, nobody was hurt. And that's what the bottom line is all about.

CABRERA: And bottom line is anybody going to get in trouble for this or was this just looked at as an accident although it obviously took up some resources.

ARPAIO: Yes, I understand that. We're not going to charge anybody. There's no criminal intent. It was just something that happened. I think two retired police officers own those llamas. But they know law enforcement and I'm sure they did a good job, too.

CABRERA: Well, sheriff Joe Arpaio, our thanks to you for joining us and helping us to kind of bring that story full circle and tie a little bow on that. We appreciate it.

ARPAIO: Thank you.

CABRERA: Up next, ISIS waging a war on a new front described by some as cultural genocide. How does this fit into their hideous strategy? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Now we have a name of jihadi John. We're learning more about Mohammed Emwazi and his days before he became the lead terrorist in the ISIS videos of the beheadings.

Now, he was born in Kuwait, raised in London till the age of six, there's a mosque he attended in that city. The father of James Foley kind of downplays the revelation of this man's identity. And you will recall, Foley was the first victim put on display beside Jihadi John in a video that was released last summer before Foley's brutal murder. Here's what Foley's dad with CBS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FOLEY, JAMES FOLEY'S FATHER: If it were not him, it would be somebody else. So in all fairness, discovering who he is might be important to some people, but it's certainly not important to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining me now, former CIA counterterrorism official Phil Mudd.

Phil, thanks for being here. Jihadi John apparently had really no social media footprint. And even these new four Canadian teenagers who are missing, doesn't seem to be any trace of them online either. What do you make of this?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: This is unusual for someone like jihadi John. First, he's involved in trying to recruit people, trying to be, if you will, a voice, a face for the organization, so you would think he'd be out there trying to present himself.

But there is something behind the curtain here, Ana. And that is he may not be on social media, but in the 21st century, think of everything you do during the daytime. You email, you text, you phone, you go to an ATM. Regardless of whether he's got a digital trail on social media, he's got a digital life elsewhere, at least his life in London that investigators can look fortifying clues.

CABRERA: Do you think that is indeed happening, we just don't know about it?

MUDD: Heck, yes. If you're going to go through an investigation like this, there are classics to find out who you are. If you are the center of an investigation, I don't want to suggest you're under investigation now, but if you were, I want to build a network of understanding around you. I want to know who you are three dimensionally. So I'm going to say where were you this morning, you text in the morning, you phoned, you emailed, you were talking to friends, I might have surveillance on you. So there's a variety of things I could do without ever actually seeing you or meeting you to understand what your life, what your pattern of life, that's a phrase we use, is like. So they are looking at mounds of data now through things like phone and email to understand what he was doing in the past.

CABRERA: Does the technology for intelligence allow where if somebody goes in and tries to wipe away their digital footprint, was in contact on social media at some point that somehow you takes down, tries to erase that, can we still access that?

MUDD: Well, I think that would be very difficult to do. This is a social debate you heard a couple years ago with Edward Snowden. It's a social debate you will hear in the future. How much of this data should phone and Internet service providers keep, how much history should they have so the government can go in in cases like this and say I didn't know about this guy yesterday, but now I want a volume of data going back years so I can investigate. Is that a violation of your civil liberties or is that important enough to keep over the course of time so you can conduct an investigation like this.

CABRERA: Does revealing jihadi John's identity help or hurt authorities trying to track him?

MUDD: I think this is a neutral. He's known for a long time that he's on the radar. ISIS has known, the authorities I think are 95 percent certain of who he is. He's never going to come home again, I believe, because they will eventually track him down. I think they would have tracked him before, they will track him after. I think this is important for purposes of talking to the public about who he is, the path to radicalization but for an investigator, this is a neutral.

CABRERA: Does it poke ISIS a little bit in that their mystical figure has been revealed? So, he maybe is more personable versus somebody that you would fear and almost like a monster?

MUDD: Heck, no. I think quite the opposite. They are sitting there saying they might be watching us right now saying, look, we have owned the media for two days, for people who are interested in the ISIS organization. A 15-year-old in Chicago or New York or London, we owned the media with these stories about someone who looks like you and me. He's not a beheader, he is not Syrian, he is not an Iraqi, he's a guy who not only speaks with an accent that sounds British but he looks like somebody you would meet on the street in London. So in essence, this is a magnet for somebody --

CABRERA: More terrorizing.

MUDD: That's right. Who doesn't want to join is, a terror organization. They want to join people who look like them.

CABRERA: Interesting. Phil Mudd, thanks again for your insight.

MUDD: Thank you. CABRERA: Up next, sci-fi fans are mourning a legend, an icon. But

they are also celebrating his life who lived a long and prosperous life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: A Hollywood legend near and dear to trekkies especially around the world has passed. "Star Trek" legendary Mr. Spock, Leonard Nimoy, died today at his Bel-air homes in Southern California. He was 83.

Now, the actor's final tweet was just this past Sunday night. And he said quote "a life is like a garden, perfect moments can be had but not preserved except in memory."

President Obama releasing his statement, in fact just a couple of minutes ago, saying long before being nerdy was cool, there was Leonard Nimoy. Leonard was a life-long lover of the arts and humanities, a supporter of the sciences, generous with his talent and his time and of course, Leonard was Spock, cool, logical, big-eared and level headed. The center of "star trek's" optimistic inclusive vision of humanity's future. I love Spock.

Those words again from President Obama.

Nimoy died from lung disease. His "Star Trek" co-star William Shatner remembered him as someone to admire, love and respect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: It's a wonderful phrase for the Vulcan to have, live long, and I would like to think that the prosper is not just make some good money, but prosper in evolving yourself as a human being which is what I think Leonard was trying to do all his life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Live long and prosper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spock here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no survivors in cabin number one. This is all some sort of trap. We've lost the captain. Do you read?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six. Six times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you. I can love you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spock, in this case, do yourself a favor. Put aside logic. Do what feels right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is my customer. They were would appear obvious self-serving. I shall simply say, good luck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)