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CNN NEWSROOM

Iraqi Officials: Mosul Mission Set for Spring; Giuliani Suggests Obama Doesn't Love America; Three Western Teens Run Off to Syria; Pentagon: Mosul Mission Set for Spring; Oscar Freebies

Aired February 21, 2015 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Suzanne Malveaux, in for Poppy Harlow.

Details coming in to CNN from the multinational war against ISIS. Kurdish officials in northern Iraq now confirming a battle between ISIS fighters and Peshmerga units just southwest of Irbil. Now, this battle did not end well for ISIS. We are told at least 34 militants were killed and Kurdish forces now fully control the city of Gwer and the surrounding area as well.

Elsewhere in Iraq, ISIS is parading its trophies after overtaking a military base that was supplied and equipped with U.S. military weapons and vehicles. This video emerged just a few hours ago showing American-made armored transports, Humvees, and automatic weapons in the hands of ISIS fighters. U.S. military officials are not yet sure when or where that video was shot.

Also, this weekend, the U.S. military is discussing strategy and how they're going to support an Iraqi military mission to liberate the Iraqi city of Mosul where between 1,000 and 2,000 ISIS fighters are believed to be dug in.

The new U.S. defense secretary isn't committing to a timetable, but Iraq's prime minister said this week, they expect to launch an assault on Mosul in the coming months.

Michael Weiss, he is joining us here. He wrote the book "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror."

And despite is' setback today, they have been able to run roughshod over Iraqi troops notably in Mosul, where Iraqi forces basically laid down their weapons and ran away last year.

So, Michael, what would make it any different when we project in the months ahead that this is going to be a different kind of scenario?

MICHAEL WEISS, CO-AUTHOR, "ISIS: INSIDE THE ARMY OF TERROR": Yes. I don't believe this current timetable that's being floated of April and May, there's going to be a massive offensive to retake the city. Fist and foremost, the U.S. says it's going to need 25,000 Iraqi soldiers to do this mission. We've trained about 3,400 of them. That's assuming that the ones we've trained are going to do their jobs better than the ones we trained who then abandoned Mosul in June of 2014.

Added to which the people who are the vanguard fighting forces on the ground in Iraq is essentially two -- Shia militia groups, these popular mobilization committees, and the Peshmerga. The Peshmerga will protect the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq, might go into eastern Mosul where there are, you know, Kurdish communities. Are they going to go house to house, street by street in Sunni enclaves where ISIS is dug in? Absolutely, 100 percent not.

I have talked to Kurdistan regional government officials and they tell me you got another thing coming here.

MALVEAUX: So, Michael, they're not going to do it. The Iraqis we're not confident yet, U.S. officials not confident yet that they're going to be able to handle the job. So, how important is it for the international forces, the coalition to step in and do more if they really are going to make a difference when it comes to ISIS?

WEISS: I mean, I don't even know where to begin with that. The Kurds need more and better weapons. I talked to one official who said what they're using is ridiculous, going back to sort of World War II-era rifles, against ISIS, which I've seen are running around with U.S. materiel. But the Kurds are good fighters, they're formidable.

Look, what did we do in 2004 when we retook Fallujah? You had U.S. marines, you had -- I forget how many combat bring brigades go into that city after it had essentially bombarded back into the Stone Age, with so much ordnance dropped on it. There were civilian evacuation teams, things like that.

I see no logistical capability on the part of Baghdad to do anything remotely like that. I mean, the U.S. can bomb the hell out of Mosul. I doubt they're going to do because a lot of civilians would be killed. But, you know, the problem is there's no credible intercessory ground military force in that country right now.

MALVEAUX: So, Michael, how damning is it and damaging to the Iraqi forces, even for the sake of symbolism and propaganda that they see this video from ISIS that shows American-made weapons that used to be in their power, in their hands, now to the enemy's hands, not to mention Iraqi bodies allegedly on that video? They're looking at that. I mean, what kind of psychological warfare is going on before the battle takes place?

WEISS: Psychological information warfare is ISIS' greatest assets in this campaign. They're essentially rubbing America's and Iraq's defeat into their losses and defeats. They're not parading captured Peshmerga fighters in cages. Similar staging to what we saw in that awful video of Muath al-Kaseasbeh, the Jordanian air pilot. So, we don't know what they're going to do with those Kurds but my guess is probably kill them.

ISIS is very sophisticated in its propaganda. It wants to demoralize the enemy. It wants to make the enemy feel like they're unstoppable and undefeatable. I don't they are. I think they do have severe vulnerabilities and weaknesses. The problem is, the way we're going about fighting them, we're not really exploiting them and tapping into them.

So, until I see for instance, you know, a Sunni national guard or armed Sunni militias that are incapable of turning the tide against ISIS in these areas.

Again, ISIS rules over Sunni communities. That's their geostrategic heartland. They're not -- they've been expelled mostly from mixed areas, Diyala province. Shia militias, are they going to go into like deep inside Central Mosul, house to house?

If they do, they're going to be slaughtered. There's going to be house-borne IEDs, suicide bombs. I mean, these are the guys, remember, for almost ten years, they cut pieces of pavement out of the road and put in these bombs that U.S. tanked would get blown up by or armored vehicles. I think they'll make mincemeat of these groups. Yes.

MALVEAUX: All right. Michael, we're going to have to leave it at that. We're going to have you come back because there's so much to talk about.

WEISS: Sure.

MALVEAUX: But we really want to digest this in so many different ways. So, Michael, appreciate it. And your book as well.

A little while ago, I spoke to a former U.S. State Department official and a correspondent in Italy about ISIS' latest threat to invade Rome. And ISIS fighters are -- they are in Libya, which is relatively short boat trip from the Italian territory. People throughout the Mediterranean -- they are definitely aware of this threat.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE DETTMER, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Seventy-two percent in the latest poll Italians fear an attack by ISIS, they didn't believe ISIS would invade. They think they'd mount some kind of terrorism. And the authorities are very alarmed. They've deployed 4,800 soldiers onto city streets in Rome and some of the other biggest cities, to protect sensitive sites like synagogues, landmarks like embassies, newspapers. They fear a kind of "Charlie Hebdo" massacre that we saw in Paris a few weeks back.

There is alarm and they are trying to monitor sympathizers in the country. They talked about -- the officials have talked about known sympathizers who could present a problem. But officials have said their biggest concerns are the people they don't know.

You have to remember that they don't know about, haven't identified -- you have to remember about 100,000 immigrants poured into illegally into Italy last year alone.

MALVEAUX: And, David, I want to follow up on Jamie's point, because it's a good point, we have seen these terrorists strike already, Paris, Copenhagen, other places. Now, you've got this threat to Italy and there are lot of people in the United States and elsewhere wondering, is it safe to go to Europe at this point? I mean, is there a real concern about travel to that area?

DAVID TAFURI, FORMER U.N. AND STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: We can expect and we should expect more ISIS attacks. We've had a couple very recently. Some of them were not people who were specifically trained by ISIS. They were followers trying to emulate some of the things that they've seen ISIS do, trying to make a big scene. And they've accomplished that.

And I think we need to expect more of that. Europe certainly needs to be on the ready, needs to protect its borders to the extent it can. But we also need to go to the root of the problem. The root of the problem is failed states and countries that are on their way to becoming failed states.

Libya is in the latter category and moving quickly towards possibly becoming a failed state, which is very unfortunate, because with the U.S. and Italy and France and the U.K. had great involvement in Libya in 2011. We helped with the revolution, helped defeat the 42-year dictatorship of Gadhafi, but now we're not very engaged in Libya. And that's a problem.

We need to help the elected government of Libya, which is based in Tobruk, with the security side of its effort to secure Libya. That means training forces, that means providing guidance to forces, maybe providing weapons, and perhaps at some point, we're going to have to do air strikes again. We need to confront ISIS and the Islamic fanatics that are in Libya before they become stronger.

MALVEAUX: All right. David, Jamie, thanks so much for an interesting conversation. We appreciate your time this weekend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Rudy Giuliani says he is getting death threats following his unusually harsh criticism of President Obama. But the former mayor standing by his belief that the president does not America. More on that straight ahead.

Plus, police in London raise alert over three teenaged girls who may be headed for Syria. We examine the lives of western jihadists.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: Disagreeing with the president of the United States is one thing, but former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani took it to another level this week, saying the president does not love his own country, America. The reaction from some Republicans was even swift.

Here's our own Will Ripley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York's Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani is not back do you think. He's stand big his charge that President Obama doesn't love his country, telling CNN's Jim Acosta in a phone interview he refuses to apologize.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): He said to me during this brief phone conversation, quote, "I don't regret making the statement. I believe it."

RIPLEY: Giuliani also addressed the firestorm following his comments.

ACOSTA: The former mayor said that his office has received some death threats, he said his secretary has gotten some death threats over the phone.

RIPLEY: While CNN can't verify the claim, Giuliani says the majority of messages were positive, including one from Louisianan Governor Bobby Jindal. Jindal's office put out a statement, refusing to condemn the former mayor but adding that Giuliani should have chosen different phraseology. Not all Republicans are backing the former mayor's criticism of the president.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: I think it's a mistake to question people's motives. It is one thing to disagree on policy, and I try not to question the president's motives as being a good American or a bad American.

RIPLEY: Giuliani's recent behavior is no surprise to some who followed his political career.

PROF. DOUGLAS MUZZIO, BARUCH COLLEGE CUNY: He's going to double down, he's going to triple down, and he's going to quadruple down.

RIPLEY: Professor Doug Muzzio, a long-time observer of New York politics says the man hailed as America's mayor for his leadership during 9/11 is tarnishing that legacy, gaining a reputation for controversial, sometimes inflammatory rhetoric.

MUZZIO: He's enjoying this. This is an ego trip. Rudy's been out of the news and now he's on the news.

RIPLEY: Giuliani continues making front-page news this weekend, bringing up old claims about the president's past.

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER NYC MAYOR: We haven't even mentioned some of the other communists and leftists who educated him as a young man.

RIPLEY: Former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod dismissed the familiar criticisms in an interview with CNN's Michael Smerconish.

DAVID AXELROD, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISER: I can't climb into Rudy Giuliani's head and explain why he said what he said. What he said was despicable and completely inconsistent with the man I know and I think the man most Americans know.

RIPLEY: But Giuliani remains defiant, even as he risks stepping farther away from his image as America's mayor.

Will Ripley, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: All right. Thanks, Will. I want to bring in our senior political analyst and former presidential adviser David Gergen.

David, always good to see you here.

Now, we've seen this kind of rhetoric building more and more throughout the years but even in Will's piece, we saw some Republicans who were distancing themselves from Giuliani's remarks almost immediately there. One of the things that the professor brought up in that piece, he said that he thought it was about Giuliani trying to get attention.

Do you really think that is the political calculus here that he just wants to be relevant, try to get attention, and risk potentially the legacy that he had for being someone of the people America's mayor?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think he was looking for attention. He was in an event that he thought was off the record, at a private restaurant in New York and he didn't know that anybody was there from the press. He's a defiant man, he likes to stand up and be tough. He's a New Yorker after all.

I must tell you, I'm a fan of his time as mayor. I think he was a very good mayor, especially after 9/11. I think on this particular issue he's wrong. It's wrong to question a president of the United States about whether he loves America or not, and especially wrong because here we have a black president for the fist time who has by the traditions of the African-American community have been so different, what they've lived through has been so different.

Of course, they may have different views about what America should be and what the American experience has been. But to question their patriotism I think is just wrong. I think it's a question now, Suzanne, what are the other presidential wannabes on the Republicans side going to say? We've heard from Rand Paul in that piece, what are they going to step up or are they just going to shy away? I think stepping up to it is the gutsy thing to do.

MALVEAUX: What do you make of what's going on here it? Because it's baffling to some people and the Republicans who have reached out to me quietly who said they think, you know, he's lost his mind. Why is he doing this? Why is he saying these things?

Is there any advantage in any way to try to shape the narrative going into 2016 for the Republicans since we are a country that is debating the efficacy of war?

GERGEN: I don't think there's any benefit to Republicans to present this narrative that he doesn't love his country. It drags up the old controversy about birther, his -- was he truly American from his birth. I don't think that serves a useful purpose. We've got far more important things to talk about. Rudy, as I say, was in a non-press-setting he thought, but said

something he shouldn't have said. Now he's defending himself to the hilt. That's just sort of his nature.

But the rest of us ought to move on. I mean, we got this -- you know, the real news this week was this fight against ISIS and how it's being characterized by the White House and whether in fact we're pulling together an alliance that can really defeat it or if we're going to be halfhearted about it.

MALVEAUX: And so, you know, going forward -- moving forward, 2016 -- 2008 this played out, right, where we heard all these suggestions about President Obama, he's not like us, didn't grow up like us, you know, the other, you know, kind of the boogeyman, if you will.

Going into 2016, whoever it is, I mean, they're going to need the millennials, Hispanics, African-Americans, a whole coalition of voters to put them in office. What who do the Republican candidates, what do they need to say in response? I mean, we've seen Scott Walker who didn't really say anything about Giuliani's comments except for he loves America.

What should they be saying? How should they be responding if they're going to be taken seriously and win over the kind of coalition they need in 2016.

GERGEN: I think that they have to say, look, he made a mistake. As much they may respect him, let's call it what it is. You know, a lot of us would love for President Obama to be clear and call Islamic terrorism what it is and it's Islamic terrorism. The administration calls it ISIS, but they don't want to call it Islamic terrorism. What does ISIS stand for if not an Islamic State?

So, in this case, the Republicans themselves ought to be clearer about what they think about what Rudy said. As I say, I respect him but he was wrong to do this, it was divisive, it has overtones that are ugly. I just -- it's -- I think it's sort of insulting to the president of the United States and indeed to the presidency to question the patriotism of a president.

And so, I think Republicans need to be tough on their own convictions if they're going to be tough on President Obama, you know, what he's calling Islamic terrorism. They ought to be equally tough on their own. I mean, that's what's going to win votes for being legitimate and authentic and real. And people don't like the dancing around, what they want. Or, you know, call these things as they are.

MALVEAUX: All right, David. We'll have to call it there. Appreciate your time.

GERGEN: OK, Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Obviously, good discussion as always.

Coming up, officials in London desperately trying to track down three teenage girls who are believed to have run off to join ISIS. While this is happening, U.N. released a new disturbing report about the group's treatment of women and children including selling them as sex slaves.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: "Please come home. We love you." That's the heartbreaking message today from the family of British girl who's feared to have run off to join ISIS. The 15-year-old took off Tuesday, along with two other friends.

CNN's Jim Sciutto explains the threat these girls face and the likelihood they will be found before it's too late.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The senior British diplomat tells me the recruitment by ISIS of women and girls is, quote, "a clear and disturbing trend" and warns that the girls involved in this particular case are at risk of sexual and other exploitation if they make it to the war zone in Syria.

(voice-over): These three young British schoolgirls are believe to be the newest foreign recruits to ISIS, caught on surveillance cameras at London's Gatwick Airport with their luggage in tow. London police fear they fled Britain for Syria to join Jihad.

COMMANDER RICHARD WALTON, METROPOLITAN POLICE: We don't know how these three girls have come up with this plan. We don't know what has enticed them, what has encouraged them to go to Syria. But we obviously believe they are heading towards Syria. But we just don't know how it's happened. The parents themselves are mystified.

SCIUTTO: The Muslim girls have been missing since Tuesday when they boarded a flight headed to Istanbul, Turkey. This is the same airport that Hayat Boumeddiene used to enter Syria right before her husband Amedy Coulibaly carried out the deadly shooting at a Paris kosher market. She's still wanted by French police and now believed inside Syria.

Turkey has been the key transit point into Syria for recruits to ISIS and other extremists groups. Turkish and European authorities are still struggling to stem the flow. DHS Secretary Jeh Johnson told Wolf Blitzer's Thursday that the U.S. is tracking these movements as best it can.

JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We have systems in place to track these individuals as they come and go. It's difficult to pick up so called broken travel.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: What is that, broken travel?

JOHNSON: Where you fly to country A, and then you go to country B on the ground saying, we don't know that fact.

SCIUTTO: A senior British diplomat tells CNN that women are a new and growing target for ISIS recruiters. The terrorism research group TRAC estimates that nearly one in six

ISIS foreign recruits are women. And that ISIS recruiting network extends to all the way to the U.S. homeland.

In October, three teenage girls from Colorado were intercepted at Frankfurt Airport in Germany as they were trying to make their way to Syria to join ISIS. It was their parents who tipped off the FBI.

Another American, 19-year-old Shannon Maureen Conley was arrested at Denver International Airport in April last year on a way to an ISIS camp near the Turkish Syrian border. She was sentenced to four years in prison after confessing that she'd wanted to become an ISIS bride and waged Holy War.

(on camera): The three British girls are friends with another British girl who traveled to Syria in September. In fact, police interviewed them at the time and did not consider them to be likely ISIS recruits.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Joining me now, former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes.

And, Tom, so, we're learning now that these girls could be headed to ISIS. This comes at the same time when we've got this very disturbing, very alarming report out of the United Nations describing the horrors that women and children are facing under ISIS. And I just want to tick off a few of them you see there. Women and children sold as sex slaves. Many children sexually assaulted in prisons, parents being forced to give their children to ISIS and children being used as suicide bombers.

I don't understand for the life of me why anybody voluntarily would be a part of this group. What do we make of this? If this is really happening in this part of the world, this is absolutely tragic.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Suzanne, that's true, terribly tragic. We've had the three young girls from Colorado that wanted to join, were intercepted in Europe and brought back by the FBI. And, you know, it just appears by the debriefings of some of these girls, that they are attracted to this macho, tough guy, cool guy, oh, these guys are so strong, they behead people, they burn men alive, they make our local street gangs look pitiful.

They like that. They don't look at what's going to physically happen to them when they get there. They think they're going to be exalted as, you know, like biker girls or something when they arrive, and that's part of the mistake they make signing up to go over there. And they are too young and stupid to be talked out of it, generally.

MALVEAUX: Tom, what does happen when they go over there? They got these three teenagers, London apparently, they took off Tuesday morning, no warning. They meet with possibly somebody to help them get into Syria. What is in front of them?

FUENTES: Well, once ISIS knows, you know, not to take them as hostages, don't believe they're there to fight ISIS or for humanitarian purposes, or journalism purposes, when they learn or believe that they're there actually to join ISIS, you know, we don't know all the details. Are they given on a soldier as a war bride? Or are they given to a group of soldiers, you know, to be their war brides? We don't know for sure all of the details of that.

But what we do know is that there is something appealing to them about the image of being with these bad boys.

MALVEAUX: Are they promised anything on the Internet? I mean, we know ISIS has a wide recruiting effort through social media. Do we know what they are actually saying to lure young girls to them?

FUENTES: Well, the sites don't tell them they'll be mistreated, abused, raped, and sold. The sites do tell them they'll be honored, this will be great to have them join the cause, join the caliphate, join the soldiers helping to build the Islamic State and the holy caliphate there. So, I think the message to them is they'll be some -- they'll be special when they get there.

MALVEAUX: It's just sad beyond belief. Tom, thank you so much. Appreciate it. We'll get more into the discussions of what their fate might be once they're in Turkey and whether their parents or the government can do anything to get them back at that point. Tom, thank you.

Coming up, the U.S. plans to support a major offensive against ISIS and Iraq. And the entire strategy was laid out for everybody to see, including ISIS. Well, is that going to backfire? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: Months after Iraqi troops dropped their weapons and hightailed it out of Mosul, Pentagon sources say they are heading back this spring, an offensive led by Iraq but supported by the United States to try to retake the city from ISIS.

Mosul is the second largest city in Iraq and holds great strategic importance. Our Ben Wedeman explains the challenges that await Iraq's army.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Pentagon officials say the United States is planning for some sort of Iraqi-led offensive in late April or May to drive ISIS out of Mosul, but a video posted on Facebook showing one battle about 100 kilometers northwest of Baghdad indicates that the Iraqi army is still on the back foot when it comes to fighting ISIS.

In this video you see ISIS fighters having overrun this Iraqi base in the desert. They clearly got their hands on dozens of American-made M- 16s, a mountain of AK-47s, mortars, ammunition, ammunition clips, armored personnel carriers and Humvees. And this has really been the case going back months as far as the situation in Anbar province goes. Time and time again, ISIS has overrun these bases and got their hands on more and more American-made equipment. The worry is, of course, if the Iraqi army is going to be given the task of driving ISIS out of Mosul, are they up to it? The United States has conducted a crash training course. They're currently about 3,200 Iraqi soldiers undergoing that course. Two thousand have already graduated.

But going a into Mosul, a city of almost two million people, some of the inhabitants who were hostile to the Iraqi army before it was driven out, is going to be difficult and Kurdish commanders we've spoken to, for instance, have said even in small villages where they've managed to drive ISIS out, ISIS has left behind dozens and in some towns hundreds of IEDs that's made it almost impossible for the original inhabitants to move out. When you're talking about driving ISIS out of a city like Mosul it's going to be a gargantuan task.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Irbil.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Joining me now are Jack Kingston, former Republican congressman from Georgia, and Don Beyer, current Democratic congressman from Virginia and former U.S. ambassador to Switzerland. Thank you both for joining us this evening to talk about this.

A really interesting discussion that we've been having throughout the day. I want to start off with you, Congressman Kingston, is whether or not the U.S. military have announced this in the way that it did, the timetable, the plan that's going to go forward in Mosul? I talked to several military officials today who believed that it's no surprise that they know anyway, it's going to happen, but, you know, they're not exactly sure if it's going to compromise the mission. What do you think

FMR. REP. JACK KINGSTON (R), GEORGIA: I don't know why you would tell your enemy what your plans are, particularly when it's in doubt because you only have 3,600 Iraqis at this point who are trained. You're going to need 25,000. Americans are limited to the 2,600 guys who will be doing the joint terminal attack control, JTACs who stay behind so, it's doubtful.

When we made our announcements in 2003 that we were invading Iraq or in 2004 that we were going into Fallujah, we had the ability to do that, we had the army, the forces on the ground, but we don't have that at this point. So announcing it ahead of time gives them an advantage. I don't know why we would do that.

MALVEAUX: Congressman Beyer, there are two things, two points that came out from discussions with military officials today. One that they felt that in some way it was a signal to the Iraqi forces, look, don't worry about it, whoever's going to be joining you, we got you. U.S. support, this is going to be a real tough battle to fight.

The other thought here was that perhaps there would be some defections on ISIS' side because there was this heads up that this was going to go down in the spring. Do you buy either one of those arguments? REP. DON BEYER (D), VIRGINIA: Yes, I think there's some history there. General McChrystal when back in Afghanistan in 2010 - when he announced the plan to take back Hellmann province basically alerting the Taliban that we were coming and hoping that we get much less resistance. It also gave hope to the civilian population.

Remember there's less than 2,000 ISIS fighters in Mosul right now. We're talking about five Iraqi brigades, up to 25,000 people. It will take some time, which is why Secretary Carter has said the timing is uncertain, we won't go until we're ready. We want to know ISIS that we are coming and the people of Mosul will not to live under ISIS domination forever.

MALVEAUX: Congressman Kingston, let's talk about the U.S. role here, the strategy in Iraq, because we do have advisers, intelligence officials who are on the ground in Iraq, their president has been very clear he doesn't want boots on the ground, he doesn't want combat troops to come back inside of Iraq.

But essentially when you got fighting that's going on, if you're an intelligence person or an advisor or not, if somebody's attacking you're going to take on a combat role there, in some ways already turning it into a de facto combat mission. Do you ever see that it's appropriate to put U.S. boots on the ground in Iraq?

KINGSTON: Absolutely. If you're going to fight, you got to fight to win. We cannot be half pregnant here. That's one of the problems we've had in the Middle East. We don't have clarity, we don't have an objective that we're going to say here's our measure of success, here's our definition of victory.

We have to have that. You know, I served on the defense committee for over 10 years, represented every branch of the military, particularly the 3rd Infantry, probably the most action in the Middle East more than any other infantry division, and I heard it over and over again. Unfortunately, you have to have boots on the ground to coordinate your air strikes. You have to have it to send the signals to the civilians, here's the way out, here's how you can join us.

You have to - in this case, if you're trying to minimize collateral damage, you have to go house to house. You can't just do everything from the air. And to say that we're going to do that with the very army, have them up front, the Iraqis, these are the folks who a year ago put down their weapons and ran after we had spent billions of dollars in 10 years training them. So I do think the case is there to have American boots on the ground. That's a tough thing to say, but again, if you're going fight, you got to win.

MALVEAUX: You know, that is a very tough thing to say in light of the fact of how much was invested under President Bush to turn the region around, to turn Iraq around. He said he wanted this region to be, you know, freedom and democracy and we are seeing the vacuum, the power vacuum that's happened and now the mess to follow.

So it certainly puts people in a difficult position to defend that and support that. I want both of you to stick around because we're going to talk about what understanding ISIS, how that could actually be a key in defeating them. We're also going to examine the so-called end of the world narrative that might be fuelling this group's brutal march.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: They have laid out the horrific plans time and time again, but are there things about ISIS we still don't know? In a new article from MALVEAUX: They have laid out the horrific plans time and time again but are there things about ISIS that we still don't know. And in a new article, this is The "Atlantic" magazine, contributing editor Graham Wood, he shed some light on what he says ISIS really wants.

Is understanding the terror group's history and the plans today key to defeating them? I discussed the article with the author Graham Wood, a critic of that thinking, Haroon Moghul and former counterterrorism official, Phil Mudd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRAHAM WOOD, "ATLANTIC" CONTRIBUTING EDITOR: Between a tradition that draws from the text of Islam and a tradition that draws from these texts well, properly, in a way that a Muslim scholar would for example be pleased with from any part of the world of Islam.

HAROON MOGHUL: I think at the senior levels of ISIS leadership it is hard to know whether they really believe what they're saying. I mean a lot of the people who are around (INAUDIBLE) are former Baath party officials. You got secular Baath, you got religious Baath. I mean the one consistency in the Baath is they like to commit genocide. Whether they're (INAUDIBLE) in Syria or they're now islamists who have converted themselves over to whatever it is.

But I think for the foot soldiers, yes it is compelling. It is a narrative that's really powerful that you're going to be a soldier on something, you're about right and wrong. This is about the end of the world, this is about standing up for the truth and creating utopia and the vision that Jesus is going to return, Jesus being the messiah in Islam is really powerful, it's an incredibly powerful lure for people.

MALVEAUX: All right. I want to bring, if I could just for a moment bring Phil into the conversation because Phil, I mean, how do you counter something like this? We've heard from the president or the summit that happened the last couple of days talking about some of it is poverty and jobs and opportunity and people are disillusioned in some of the Middle Eastern countries. And that there need to be another way.

Propaganda also being a very powerful force in this. But if you have folks who believe that this is going to be the next coming, are going to be a part of the end of the world on the good side, on the winning side, how do you counter something like that?

MUDD: Let's take out that word you use, folks, and let's separate out the leadership in what was referred to a moment ago as the foot soldiers. Because in my experience those are vastly different people in terms of how they believe and how you can potentially divert their beliefs.

Right now if you look at the leadership of ISIS, my judgment based on when we at the CIA used to interrogate Al Qaeda guys, and Al Qaeda is not the same by a large margin as ISIS, but when we used to interrogate the leadership, they are true believers. Once they go down that path of indoctrination over the course of years or decades, you can't turn them back. They are never going to go home again in that case to be blunt that's a kill or capture operation at the upper one percent of an organization like ISIS.

To contrast that with the foot soldiers, in my experience both in the United States and overseas, the foot soldiers may believe that they understand the message of ISIS, including the senseless killing. They don't.

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MALVEAUX: Joining me again to discuss Jack Kingston, former Georgia congressman, and Don Beyer, Virginia congressman and former U.S. ambassador to Switzerland. Thank you both.

Congressman Beyer, I want to start off with you. Does it matter if we understand what they want, ISIS, this terror group, when we are already seeing what they are capable of doing?

BEYER: It does matter. We're going to need an "all of the above" type strategy. We're clearly going to need those five Iragi brigades, you know, making a real meaningful difference in Mosul. We're clearly going to need the Peshmerga and make sure that the Kurdish can do what they can.

The president talked the other day about economic opportunity, jobs, hopelessness but there are 70,000 to 90,000 social media messages a day coming out of ISIS. We got to be able to counter the propaganda and the message those young people are getting. We have to do it all together if we hope to succeed.

MALVEAUX: Congressman kingston, we already know from the United Nations that report coming out that they are raping children, they are selling them into slavery, they are killing, I mean, the brutality of what is taking place in this part of the world is absolutely unbelievable.

How is it that you get to people and the propaganda machine and stop what some people believe is an ideology that they're going to get to the promised land in some way, the end of the world, the apocalypse and have all that is good in the world and be on the right side? How do you even fight something like that in a propaganda way?

KINGSTON: You know, I do think you have to understand them, and I do think - and I hope somebody in the White House reads Graham Wood's articles in the "Atlantic" and they watch the interview that you had with him today. The reality is the president is still in denial that they do not have a religious background, if you will, a belief system that is religious.

It might be a twisted form of Islam, we'll all agree on, that but the reality is they believe that they are on the side of good against evil and they believe that when they recruit people and recruits sign up, they are fighting on the right side of god or Allah or whatever, and the reality is the only way you can break that spirit is to defeat them. You have to have victories and you have show, look, they're not expanding anymore. That's why taking Mosul is important, but also to counterattack them. It's interesting the president doesn't want to give them their religious due because he believes that will trigger some kind of a mass world recruitment, yet when he says we're going to go into Mosul, that's going to be the same thing.

You're darned if you do and darned if you're darned if don't, if you're going to play around with this religious label, but you got to go in there and break their spirit, because if you don't, they believe that Allah is on their side and that victory belongs to them.

MALVEAUX: Congressman Beyer, you are shaking your head. Jump in, weigh in, if you will. You have the last one here.

BEYER: I just don't think that's fair to the president. What he's saying was that this isn't a war against Islam, it's clearly a war against ISIS and I think he clearly understand it. ISIS has these thousand-year-old archaic, religious ideas. What the president is trying to point out is the great victims of ISIS have been Muslims and we're going to need most of the Muslim world - Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, fighters in Syria and Iraq - if we're going to beat ISIS.

KINGSTON: But on the other hand and Don, I'm in agreement with you, most of the victims have been Muslims, but the reality is that their own leadership says find an infidel, crush his head with a rock, poison him, and destroy his crops. That is the kind of rhetoric they say followed by we're going to conquer Rome and break your crosses. And then you have -

BEYER: That's not Islam, Jack.

KINGSTON: But well, you know, but the president is saying that they're not religious. My point is they believe that they are religious. So the president can declare what he wants, but in the fight for good and evil, they believe that they are on god's side. That is why it is important. So I'm not saying that, you know, this is Islam, but it is a twisted form in which they have embraced.

BEYER: And I agree, I just don't think it's fair to the president to say that he doesn't realize the religious underpinnings of ISIS. Clearly, he does. He just wants to make sure that we're not declaring war on Islam. That we're declaring war on the clerics.

MALVEAUX: All right. I got to leave it there, you both had your say. We're running out of time. Thank you so much, Congressman. I really appreciate it and we'll have you back. We'll be right back.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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(INAUDIBLE) foundation has no age limit. As long as you are able to pick something up, come out and help us make a difference.

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Perfect.

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UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: God bless you, you know? God bless you and thank you.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: If you want to make a difference, I have three bits of advice for you. One, use your passion and purpose in life to help make a change in the community. Two, get your friends to help, and three, never give up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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MALVEAUX: Winning an Oscar may be priceless, but nominees don't even have to win to go home with a $160,000. Jake Tapper explains why.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) fill this bag as fast as you know how.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You want a bag full of money?

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Put $50,000 in this bag and act natural.

TAPPER: For decades, Hollywood stars basically just had to ask.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Take the money and put it in that bag. TAPPER: And on Hollywood's biggest night, some losing nominees will not even have to ask to get swag bags worth more than $160,000 each. That is double what the price packs were worth last year and, oh yeah, more than three times the median American salary. So what is inside?

Chi-chi brands, gambling on an inadvertent endorsement.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Not only are they giving away thousands of dollars worth of product, but they're also paying for the chance to be recognized in the first place.

TAPPER: Cheesy commercials suck as these may not do much to sell rocky mountaineers luxury train trip, but what happens if an appreciative A- lister were to snap a photo from his or her own $14,000 excursion, provided to them free in the bag. Well, that could put the company on the fast track. Emphasis on could.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: When you put that stuff in there hoping that maybe the celebrity will use it or pass it along to a friend of theirs who will use it. People talk about it.

TAPPER: Stars who didn't make the cut to George Clooney's wedding at Lake Cuomo Italy state can work on cultivating that friendship with a stay at the nearby Grand Hotel (INAUDIBLE). That hotel stays is just one part of an $11,500 getaway.

Clooney agreeing to your pop in, that's not included. From 45 bucks and free hydroxycut weight loss products to $20,000 worth of swanky car rentals from the tech friendly premium brand Silvercar. Losing an Oscar never felt so nice.

But before the red carpet elite start feeling too special, the IRS reminds us that the companies providing these items "do not do so solely out of affection, respect, or similar impulses for the recipients." Translation, that means $160,000 in so-called gifts if everything is used could mean more than $40,000 in taxes for the stars. Those priceless career boosting gold statuettes, however, the IRS lets you enjoy those for free.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: That's great.

Coming up tonight at 9:00 p.m., catch the CNN film "And the Oscar Goes To."

And tomorrow Don Lemon and Michaela Ferrer bring you all of the glitz and glamour of the red carpet, live this Sunday night at 6:00 Eastern. Stay with CNN and CNN.com for breaking news any time.

I'm Suzanne Malveaux, thanks for joining us. "CNN QUIZ SHOW" begins right after this.

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