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Kurdish Forces Regain Control Over ISIS in Iraq; Source: U.S. Has Secret ISIS 'Kill List'; White House Holding Counterterrorism Summit; U.S. Has New Plan to Counter ISIS Propaganda; Ukrainian Forces Pulling Out of Key Town; Denmark Attacks Inspired by Paris Attacks?

Aired February 18, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to NEW DAY.

We do begin with breaking news for you out of Iraq. Kurdish forces hammering ISIS. The Peshmerga drilling the terrorists with air strikes in response to a major ISIS offensive.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: No question, ISIS is trying to overrun Kurdish defense positions. But the Kurds are some of the strongest fighters the coalition has on the ground and they did not back down.

For the latest, we get right to CNN's Ian Lee live on the ground in Cairo.

What do we know?

IAN LES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, it was intense fighting, close-quarter fighting for five hours' time between ISIS and Peshmerga fighters. Toward the end of those five hours, we know that two lines separated again, and that's when coalition forces were able to start airstrikes. Before, they couldn't. They couldn't risk hitting Peshmerga fighters, as well.

We know that ISIS, according to the Peshmerga, lost 40 fighters in this attack. A lot of them, we're hearing, are foreign fighters. The Peshmerga have been very vague on the fatalities on their side, although they're saying that they lost several men in this attack.

Where we know this is, it's along the Zab River, and there was multiple fronts on this attack, several villages simultaneously being assaulted. It's roughly 25 miles from the Kurdish city of Erbil, and if ISIS forces pushed through this front line, then they would have had a clear shot all the way to Erbil, although Peshmerga fighters most likely wouldn't have allowed them to take that city.

But what we know is this is over 600-mile-long front line. The Peshmerga fighters are thin in certain areas as they're trying to surround Mosul and go after Mosul. The ISIS fighters, though, probing that line, trying to relieve that pressure -- Chris.

CUOMO: The pictures of that community just destroyed. What will happen to those displaced? How will they get their lives back? Or are they going to become an added group in Iraq, the strain of that situation already? All right, Ian Lee, thank you very much. We'll be back with you in a little bit.

The U.S., we hear, has a secret kill list to help take out members of ISIS. Let's get right to CNN's Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, joining us with details. I know it's a secret list, but we're learning things about it. What do we know about who's on it?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris.

Well, No. 1 on the list, maybe no surprise to anybody, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. He is the one the U.S. wants the most. But what this list of about two dozen ISIS operatives really reflects is a struggle by the U.S. to identify who the top leaders even are in ISIS.

To get that critical intelligence to know who they needed to go after besides al-Baghdadi. We know that the U.S. has killed a number of ISIS leaders already, perhaps as many as a dozen key leaders.

But as people get killed off. Other people emerge in the organization. They are put on the list. It's a continuous effort to get that critical intelligence. They're not looking at going after everybody. What they're looking at is going after the key operatives that, if they could kill them, take them off the battlefield. It would make a substantive difference in ISIS's capability -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Barbara Starr. Thank you for that reporting.

Well, the White House panel is -- the White House, I should say, is hosting a panel of international leaders today, about the fight against home-grown terrorists. This as Attorney General Eric Holder says the U.S. is not at war.

For the latest on all this, let's get to CNN's White House correspondent, Michelle Kosinski. Those comments from Holder getting a lot of attention this morning, Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. And also, I mean, you hear of a summit going on, and you think, "OK, that sounds like a big boring government meeting." Not sure what the outcome is going to be.

But the question here is an important one: How do you prevent the kind of violent extremism we've seen so recently in Europe? How do you help local communities identify individuals and stop them?

And today we're going to be hearing from the president on this. And the things that he'll be talking about are, you know, countering propaganda. That's going to be a big topic.

Again, the White House is still not calling this Islamic terrorism, because they say they want to draw from international experience fighting extremism of all kinds. And they say that the attackers we've seen are, in fact, not Islamic, but simply terrorists.

Again, it will be interesting to see if there's any real progress that has been made in, for example, pilot programs that have sprung up.

And the White House keeps emphasizing that you have to get to the root of extremism. Otherwise, you end up playing whack-a-mole, as they put it, with these groups that spring up.

It was also very interesting to see, in a completely different setting, the attorney general, Eric Holder, say that we are currently at a time of war. He was, in context, making reference, bringing this comparison to World War II when there was a formal declaration.

But that got people's attention, because the administration has agreed, at least since September, that we are currently at war against ISIS -- Chris.

CUOMO: Then why are we talking about it, right? Because there's some space in there that makes people curious. Michelle Kosinski, thank you very much.

One of the biggest questions in the fight against ISIS is how to fight their ideology and propaganda. The Obama administration says they have a new plan to counter that ideology on social media. So let's bring in Mr. Rick Stengel. He's the undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs; also, of course, former managing editor of "TIME" magazine.

Very good to see you, sir.

RICK STENGEL, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR PUBLIC DIPLOMACY AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Good morning, Chris.

CUOMO: Let's deal with the immediate when it comes to messaging and propaganda. A quick play of what the attorney general said here for the audience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're not in a time of war, I understand that. I said that's an extreme example.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: "We're not at a time of war." I know that that's an extreme example. I understand the context of it, but do you understand point of curiosity that the media has with someone from the administration once again seeming to question whether or not there's a war going on?

STENGEL: Chris, you asked the question yourself: Why are we talking about this? I mean, we're here on a day that's the beginning of the counter-violent extremism summit, where we talk about taking it to the violent extremists. I think it's -- I'm relatively indifferent as to what we call it, and I don't think that matters so much. What matters is the fact that we're trying to combat it, we're trying to prevent it, we're trying to counter it, and that's what we're going to talk about today.

CUOMO: Well, that's why I'm asking for your help. Because you have the benefit of brilliance as a journalist, and now you're understanding what the policy motivations are. The point would go to one of clarity. That you say you're at war every chance you can. Because you are, in fact, at war and you never parse it. You do call these people one thing, your enemy all the time. And we're not seeing that, as well. Do you think clarity is a legitimate criticism of this situation?

STENGEL: Well, Chris, as you know, as a fellow historian, we haven't declared war against another state since World War II.

CUOMO: True.

STENGEL: And we've been in umpteen battles since then. So to me that's why it's not that essential an issue.

But if you talk about what we're doing trying to counter the propaganda of ISIL and other extremist groups, that is a big issue, because this is how these people become radicalized. This is how young men become radicalized. They become radicalized on the Internet, on YouTube, watching these kinds of videos and getting this kind of messaging. And we want to intercede in that.

We want to prevent them not only from sometimes getting that messaging, but countering it with our own message and our own story. And the story of third-party groups, people who say that this is, they are not doing this in the name of Islam, that is not a legitimate form of Islam. This is the way that we're rebutting the radicalization of young men around the world.

CUOMO: Now, this is the even more difficult part of the battle, right? On the battlefield, very difficult. But battling an idea even more difficult. They put out something like 90,000 tweets a day. They're preying on a community that's very low information, very high disaffection and anger. So what's the counterstrategy? You say third-party groups? Put some meat on the bones for us.

STENGEL: Yes, but and Chris, as you say, it's a long-term problem. It's not an overnight problem. In fact, part of the idea of the summit is what happens post-ISIL, after ISIL is defeated? What are the other groups that will then try to get hold of these young men?

So -- so you mentioned the 90,000 figure, for example. We need to -- one of the things that I'm doing is just to help coordinate, amplify all the messaging from within the government, within the U.S. government, with our coalition partners that are taking the battle to them on the ground, and then with third-party groups, with imams, with clerics, with young former fighters who will come back and say, "Look, this is not what it's cracked up to be. There is no caliphate. There's no romance to this. You get treated horribly, and you probably will get killed."

I mean, this is the message that we want to take to them.

CUOMO: How do you deal with the fact that the harshness seems to be a selling point for this target audience? Which is again highly disaffected, highly angry, highly uneducated mostly, young men. How do you deal with that? If that's what they want, if that's what they like, how do you counter it?

STENGEL: Well, it's an interesting question, Chris. One of the things that we've seen with their messaging is that the most violent parts of what they show are really directed toward a western audience. Both to scare us and also to attract those really disaffected, psychologically disturbed young men who actually emulate that and want to do that. That's a psychological problem.

That's also a societal problem. As you say, they're disaffected. They don't have jobs. They don't have education. I mean, there are all these efforts that we need to do collectively as countries to help raise up that group of people who are the target audience of violent extremists.

CUOMO: Now, I know that this will seem self-serving. But you are working for the United States on the policy side. Is there going to be social media about how the -- by the way, the United States is not your problem. We have come in to help in different situations, but ISIS is telling you we're the enemy. We're not the ones who made you uneducated. We're not the ones who made you in those economic circumstances. We're trying to help those circumstances. Is that message going to be put out there? Because that's a big part of the -- the focus of hatred.

STENGEL: Sure. Well, Chris, actually, one of the things that I've seen in my frequent travels to the Middle East and North Africa and elsewhere is people there saying this is our problem. It's not your problem. We want your help. But this is a -- this is a problem that has existed for generations in our culture. And we want to combat it. We want -- we want your help in doing so.

So it's fine for us to say that. And I think that you know, part of the strategy of the Islamic extremists in terms of recruitment is to say that, you know, the U.S. is the great enemy, and that does get resonance with people. But it's not the case.

And in fact, one of the things that we want to put out there in terms of our messaging is that we are the largest humanitarian donor to Syria. We've given over $3 billion to help the humanitarian situation in Syria. So it's stories like that that we also want to get out there.

CUOMO: Richard Stengel, which name are you going to use in the propaganda or the counterpropaganda campaign against ISIS? What are you going to call them? Are you just going to call them ISIS, because there are so many different groups? Have you guys settled on a name yet?

STENGEL: Well, if you're talking about that group, you know, I refer to them as DAISH, which is the Arabic name.

CUOMO: Sure.

STENGEL: And the Arabic initials. Again, when you're in the Middle East, I have not heard one person in the Middle East call them ISIS or ISIL. Everybody calls them DAISH. And by the way, Chris, they hate being called DAISH, because they feel it doesn't give them the respect that they -- that they want.

CUOMO: but this little debate that we had going on yesterday about, are you going to call this Islamism? Are you going to call it extreme jihad? You know, what is going to be your phrase?

STENGEL: You see, my argument about this is that what these people are doing, it's by definition not Islamic. It's by definition not religious. There's not a religion on the face, in the history of the globe that has ever condoned this kind of behavior. It's terrorist criminal behavior in the name of Islam.

CUOMO: All right. Mr. Stengel, thank you very much. Good luck with the policy efforts. Let us know how they continue to go. Good to have you on NEW DAY, as always.

STENGEL: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris. We do have some breaking news out of eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are on the move, away from a key area that has seen heavy fighting. What does this mean for the ceasefire? CNN senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is in Donetsk with the latest. What's happening at this hour, Nick?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Well, I stand now in a mining shaft just to the south of Debaltseve. That was just hours ago a Ukrainian military position. We can see the rooms they used to sleep in here, the armed personnel carriers that they abandoned after apparently months of defending this position.

There's been a sea change around the strategic town of Debaltseve in the last hour. We've seen armored personnel carriers back after artillery strikes. Ukrainian troops, sadly still those inside those, torched by the explosions.

It is an extraordinary day here around Debaltseve, where it seems that the Ukrainian military has decided to pull the entirety of its force from the city.

That is massively significant, because this was a symbol of the Minsk agreement that it would still remain in Ukrainian hands, throughout the ceasefire. The separatists always said it was theirs. They had encircled it. And now the military, frankly, superiority of the separatists, backed, NATO and Ukraine says, by the Russian military, trained and equipped by them, has led to them quickly prevailing here in in a matter of days.

The extent of the Ukrainian casualties still unknown. But I should point out this dramatic change of hands of territory is happening on the fifth day of the supposed ceasefire.

Exactly what point (ph) in the politics involved in this, we'll stop calling this a ceasefire, as I stand around me looking at the debris of the Ukrainian military very quickly in retreat, there is something happening here which is certainly not a truce. Back to you.

CUOMO: All right. Nick, thank you very much. Stay safe there, and we'll get more of your reporting later in the morning.

Today was supposed to be a big day for millions of immigrant DREAMers, but their fight to stay in the U.S. is now tied up in court. President Obama says he will appeal a ruling by a federal judge that blocks his executive action on immigration. It gives 26 states time to sue the administration, in an effort to stop the president's immigration plan permanently.

CAMEROTA: And new developments in the dramatic arrest of an Arizona State University professor. The officer who slammed Ursula Orr to the ground while arresting her for jaywalking has resigned. Officer Stewart Ferrin has been on leave from the department since the incident last July. Last month the university notified Ferrin of its intent to fire him, but he appealed that decision. An independent investigation found Ferrin committed multiple violations while arresting Orr.

CUOMO: Can you provide any defense for the officer?

CAMEROTA: I cannot.

CUOMO: I will. I mean, we have to. That's the nature of the situation. This is something that we have to be clear about: when a situation with an officer goes bad...

CAMEROTA: Yes?

CUOMO: ... the rules change of engagement. A point you have made consistently well is, but why does the officer need to let the situation go bad?

CAMEROTA: For jaywalking? I mean, for jaywalking?

CUOMO: What the officer will say is, "Let's say it's jaywalking." And I come to you and say, "Hey, please, don't jaywalk," and you say something or do something that I take as disrespect and hostility. Now it doesn't matter what you did any more. We're on an entirely different playing field.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and we have seen that, sadly, all too often. But we'll see what the investigation reveals.

CUOMO: Bad training leads to bad decisions, bad choices and bad outcomes.

CAMEROTA: We have seen that. Well, new reporting now on last month's terror attacks in Paris. Were the "Charlie Hebdo" and the kosher market attacks coordinated?

CUOMO: We all know vice president Joe Biden. You know, he's a different guy; he's a real guy. Sometimes a scene-stealer as a result. That's just Joe being Joe. But take a look at this. What do you think? John King is going to do his best to sort this out and more. Here, this is Ash Carter getting put on. There's a moment coming here. There it is. How do we feel about that? Is this a non- troversy or is it something there? Ash seems OK with it.

CAMEROTA: Not sure how to feel about this. What is happening here?

CUOMO: John King knows.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: New developments to tell you about in the Denmark terror attack. Investigators believe the suspected gunman in Copenhagen may have been inspired by the Paris terror attacks last month.

Joining us now to discuss this and more is the director of Europol, Rob Wainwright. Europol is the European law enforcement agency which handles criminal intelligence, including the investigations in Paris and Copenhagen.

Mr. Wainwright, thanks for joining us this morning.

ROB WAINWRIGHT, DIRECTOR, EUROPOL: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: The latest information that we have, reading media reports, are that the gunmen -- gunman in Copenhagen may have been inspired by the Paris terror attacks. What new intel have you developed?

WAINWRIGHT: Well, we're still working on the intelligence case, Alisyn, and I think it's so far no clear indication that there are operational links between these different attacks.

And you know, I think that reflects the fact that, over the last ten years, there's been a notable shift in the terrorist scene, away from the command and control networks of the days of 9/11, into now a much more fragmented network, multiple thousands of people. Terror suspects who have been radicalized on the Internet, by conflict experience in Syria and Iraq. And many of them have returned to European society, but operating in an independent way, very often unconnected as well, making them much harder for the police, of course, to track their movements.

So an inspiration perhaps, a copycat attack, yes, certainly, but so far what we're not seeing is a coordinated network of terrorist activity across Europe.

CAMEROTA: But Mr. Wainwright, what you're describing is even more troubling on some levels, because it suggests that you can have one lone gunman who does not need to have travelled to, say, Syria or Iraq and come back. He could just be aspirational. He could just be sitting in his apartment alone and be inspired on the Internet or by recent attack. What do you do about people like that?

WAINWRIGHT: Well, that's exactly the nature of the problem we're up against, Alisyn, I think. But we have seen a very strong response by police chiefs and political leaders here in Europe since these attacks in the last five weeks. A lot of it to deal, of course, with the radicalization of these young men and women in our society. A lot of it about trying to tackle the propaganda war on the Internet. This is a huge part of the work that we have to do.

And at Europol also, urgent steps now to increase our ability to act as a counterterrorist center in Europol -- in Europe so that we can exchange intelligence, we can track the flows of illicit firearms and terrorist financing and, of course, also monitor these extremist websites online. So urgent action being done now in the face of what is certainly a challenging threat.

CAMEROTA: It is. It's a challenging threat and a challenging time. You have, sadly, been too busy since the beginning of this year, between what happened in Paris and now Copenhagen.

Let's talk about the latest in Paris. The media reports suggest that there may have been coordination between the kosher market and the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks. What have you learned?

WAINWRIGHT: Well, I think that's the nature of the investigation that we're seeing. That there -- between those incidents, there might have been, certainly, a connection. We think it's concerned -- connected with a terror cell that was thought to be sleeping, dormant for many years, going back to 2005, 2006.

And again another indication of the complexity of the threats that we're facing. Even cells that we thought were dormant are capable of waking up and striking back again.

So this is a complex terrorist scene that we have in Europe. It's important, therefore, that we increase international police cooperation methods, in particular. And not just in Europe. You know, we're working very urgently with our U.S. partners on this scene, as well. And it's a determined response by us now to make sure that we can protect our citizens and society from these kind of attacks.

CAMEROTA: Because of these two attacks, we have all become so much more aware and conscious of the threat throughout Europe. And we've learned that there are approximately 5,000 Europeans who have become radicalized and traveled somehow to Syria and Iraq, many of them then returning to their home countries. What's the plan for them? Are their passports being pulled? Are they on a watch list? What about those 5,000?

WAINWRIGHT: Well, I think political leaders in Europe are considering many different opportunities now, perhaps in particular to monitor air traffic movement across Europe, to monitor the way in which they enter Syria and Iraq in the first place, of course. And also when they come back to society, to make sure that we have the right intelligence in place to identify the most dangerous suspects, because not all of them that would return perhaps present an immediate threat.

So there is also a process of what we call de-radicalization, to try and deal with these people when they come back into their communities. To interview them, to try and understand, perhaps, what their state of mind is; and this is an important part, as well. In the police world, of course, exceptionally important to identify

who are the most dangerous suspects? Who are they talking to? Who perhaps they're being financed by, so we can monitor their movements and intercept them before they have the attempts -- the opportunity to carry out an attack.

CAMEROTA: Mr. Wainwright, which cities keep you up at night? The Paris and the Copenhagen -- Copenhagen attacks came as a surprise to many of us, but perhaps not you as the director of Europol. Which cities do you think are ripe for some sort of attack or threat?

WAINWRIGHT: Well, I think the -- the nature of this threat is that we're dealing with multiple thousands of potential extremists, drawn right across Europe. So it's important to recognize the global dimensions of this threat in European society, and that's why we've seen a very strong response from the European -- European Union as a whole to this.

I think clearly those countries that are engaged in the military fight against I.S. and Syria in Iraq are perhaps more vulnerable to these kind of attacks. We also know, as we've seen, the Jewish communities around Europe are also being targeted by these extremists.

So clearly, the police are involved in making sure that we can protect the most vulnerable parts of our society. But actually, this is a general threat, and we have to make sure, therefore, that we can do what we can to protect many countries in a more universal way.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Rob Wainwright, director of Europol, thanks so much for making time for NEW DAY. Nice to talk to you.

WAINWRIGHT: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn. We're not hearing as much about measles, but the fact is, it is still spreading, cases now reported in 17 states. We have the latest on efforts to finally contain the outbreak and where that outbreak is, ahead.

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