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Routh Pled Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity Wednesday; Pope Weighing in on Having Children; Online Dating Can Be Brutal

Aired February 12, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: In the "American Sniper" trial here today, testimony about the man accused of killing Chris Kyle took off leading police on this car chase after firing the fatal shot. We are live in Texas next.

Plus, the Pope is weighing in on having children, again. But this time he is not making any comparisons to rabbit, remember that not too long ago? In fact now, he seems to be going in the other direction. Hear what he has to say, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

New details, more dramatic testimony today on day two of the so-called American sniper trial under way in Texas. One witness today said former Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and his friend had loaded handguns on them when they were killed two years ago. Eddie Ray Routh was also involved (INAUDIBLE) police. He is the man now charged with capital murder in deaths of Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield.

Ed Lavandera has been inside the court for testimony about days here. He is live in Stevensville, Texas. What have you seen in here today, Ed?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Broke, it is another dramatic day of testimony. Right now the jury is hearing from the officers and from the town of Lancaster, Texas which is where Eddie Ray Routh drove to after the murders of Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield. And there's about a 30-minute standoff with police officers. And we have heard from those officers who spoke with him, one officer who had approach him and said that Eddie Ray Routh had told him that he had just taken a couple of souls and need to do take a couple more.

Another officer that testify that Eddie Rouht had gotten a phone call while he was barricading himself inside of Chris Kyle's truck, a phone call from his mother asking what's going on, what's going on and that Eddie Ray Routh said I don't know.

But really, the most dramatic part was that after this 30-minute standoff, Eddie Ray Routh led Lancaster police and authorities on a 10-minute high-speed chase. And they played some of that video inside the courtroom or they played the entire video inside the courtroom for the jury just a short while ago. And in that video you can, at one point, the truck colliding with the police car inside that chase and that went on for about 10 minutes and ended on a major interstate just south of Dallas where eventually the car as the truck that he was driving,

Chris Kyle's truck was crippled, the wheels were flattened. And then Eddie Ray Routh had to get out of the truck there in the middle of the interstate, and he was swarmed by more than a dozen police officers. And that video that was just played for jury members. Of course, all of these, Brooke, being pay out and get the question of Eddie Ray Routh's mental state at the time of these murders is the principal issue at play here. And obviously, a lot of this goes to his state of mind in the moment of shooting end of moments, right after -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: That is exactly where I am going next in my discussion.

Ed Lavandera, thank you.

Please keep listening for us inside that courtroom. Routh pleaded not guilty Wednesday by reason of insanity. And his attorneys say he was, quote-unquote," a psychosis so severe that he didn't know what he was doing."

Joining me now Loni Coombs, former L.A. county prosecutor. Also with me, CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos.

So welcome both to you and this is where I really want to begin, his mental state, Danny. I mean, can you just first explain the insanity defense?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So every state is free to choose their own insanity defense. And constitutionally, you may be surprised to learn that some states don't even have an insanity defense at all, and that appears to be constitutionally permissible.

But in Texas, Texas uses a very strict application of the original what was called the McNaughton (ph) test. And the only way in Texas you can plead insanity is if you can demonstrate that at the time the defendant did not understand that what he was doing was wrong.

Now, that doesn't mean that the defendant may have just personally believe what he did was wrong. Instead, the defendant must be unaware that society believes that what he is doing is wrong. So when you see evidence as in that dash cam of a defendant seeing the scene, that shows that he is aware, it shows that aware that police want to catch you, and when police want to catch you, it is because you've done something wrong. So that dash cam evidence is really devastating to an insanity defense.

BALDWIN: Loni, we also know this. We know that back in July of 2011, Routh was diagnosed with PTSD. He had been, you know, in and out of Veterans Affairs' clinic ever since, not a lot of progress there. How does this play into the insanity defense?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTOR: You know, I think that the defense is not going to just focus on the PTSD because there is a lot of emotional over that. Some people they feel that maybe he didn't have a right to claim that because he never saw after combat. But I think those are real combination of the PTSD and these other mental illness, schizophrenia or other diagnosis he had.

I mean, it is clear nobody can argue that he is not been in and out of mental hospital for a period time now. And in fact, right up in to a few days before this, had gone into a mental facility, had been diagnosed by doctors saying that he was going to be a danger to himself and others, was transferred to a veterans facility where they let him go over his family's objection. I think that will come out. And in fact, in the jury questionnaire, they were asked about their feeling about these veterans hospitals and, you know, the care that he has given there.

BALDWIN: What about, you talk about, you know, his family or people who are close to him, Danny. We know that there were issues of his girlfriend in the past according to documents from the D.A. He indicated that he had also held his girlfriend and I think also her roommate hostage in their apartment. How will that factor in to the defense?

CEVALLOS: Again, it's -- well, it's a narrow definition. And Texas' jury instructions actually include a provision that insanity is not mere anti-social behavior. It's not near habitual criminal behavior. If he is going to have to show by competent medical evidence that he was unaware that what he was doing was wrong. And the strange paradox here is that defendants who do a lousy job of hiding from police, if you commit a murder and then you just stand in the middle of the street with a bloody knife, defendants who don't attempt to flee or don't attempt to give away, strangely, have a better argument for insanity defense. But at the end of the day, statistically, it is rarely involve, and where it is, it is then rarely successful. So there's a real public myth that the insanity defense is a get out of jail pre-card and that is simply not the truth.

BALDWIN: Loni, what about also this blockbuster movie based upon, you know, Chris Kyle's life, "American Sniper?" I know the judge file a gag order in this case. But what concerns would that movie -- obviously, it could impact the trial even though it's not supposed to. How could it not?

COOMBS: Well, too bad it has (ph) gag order on the movie because so many people have gone to see it. And I would say, primarily, people are going to feel very connected to the victim, in this case, Chris Kyle. He comes off as a very heroic type person, you relate to him. Although there's been a backlash to it, too, so you don't know on that jury if you have people who came out feeling more pro toward the victim or perhaps against him. So it could play either way. And the judge, you know, had said the trial is going to go on despite the fact that the movie is in theaters right now. And people are going to (INAUDIBLE). The jury is not supposed to see, but --

BALDWIN: But. It is tough to be in the Stevensville, Texas and not have people talking about this.

Loni Coombs and Danny Cevallos, thank you both very much. Just weeks after the pope said, you don't have to brave like rabbit,

now he is saying it's selfish not to have kids. We will talk about maybe mix messaging from the Vatican.

Also ahead, finding your next date could be as simple as opening and app on your iphone about who you actually meet. That is a whole different story. Imagine finding out the person you just went out with is engaged. That's Laurie Segall's story, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Once again, comments from the Pope are raising some eyebrows just weeks after insisting Catholics do not need to, and I'm quoting him now, "breed like rabbits." It seems he has flipped the script claiming that not having kids, his quote "a selfish choice." Our go to guy in all things Vatican is Mr. John Allen, senior Vatican analyst with us here at CNN.

And so, John, I'm confused. Which one does he want, no breeding like rabbits or have kids?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Hey, Brooke. I mean, listen. I admit, the Pope has been delivering so many sound bites on the subject recently. It is very hard to keep track. And you know, sometimes you feel like asking, will the real Pope Francis please stand up, right?

BALDWIN: Are you quoting him on MTV, John Allen?

ALLEN: It's true, it's true, OK? But if you drill down below the headlines, I think there is a kind of consistent message here. It's pretty clear what the Pope has been saying is that in general, large families are great and the Catholic Church wants to support people who make the choice to have large families.

But at the same time, nobody is obligated to have them. If you can't have a lot of kids either for medical reasons or psychological or financial reasons or whatever, that it's not like you're failing god if you don't. And in fact, even though the church is opposed to artificial birth control, the church does have natural forms spacing births and eliminating births that are the probes and support. So I think that's what he's trying to say. They want to back up people who make the choice to have large families but they don't want to condemn anyone who is not capable of doing that, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Why is the Pope even going there and addressing births and, you know, child rearing at all?

ALLEN: Well, fundamentally because he thinks the family is a big deal. I mean, bear in mind this is a Pope who has decided to convene not one, but two, summits of catholic bishops, what the catholic church called a Synod (ph) on issues related to the family. He had one last October, he's having one this October. The family is one of the topics he comes at again and again and again.

Fundamentally, Brooke, I think it's because he believes that the family is one of the most important cells of society, but for a society to be healthy, its families have to be healthy. And he wants people to understand that the Catholic Church is trying to get out a pro-family message. That is, that the church he wants to lead is a church that is trying to support people who are trying to raise healthy families.

Now, within that, I think what he's trying to say is that those people who have the capacity to have large families, to have multiple kids, that's even better and the church wants to try to support that in every way it can, but he also wants to get out a message of compassion for people who are not able to make that choice.

BALDWIN: Listen, I love sound bites and quotes in the headlines because it means I get to talk about the Pope and I get to talk to you, John Allen. Will the real Pope Francis please stand up? I think you just made my day.

John Allen in Rome tonight. John, thank you.

ALLEN: You bet.

BALDWIN: Next, the world of online dating can be brutal. And sometimes you have to hear the stories to believe them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we heard a conversation about restaurant and I said have you been here? And he said well, I haven't been to eat there but I have been through their dumpster. What?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Say what? Hear the rest of that story and a couple others right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Online dating, let's go there. I know it can be rough, it can be rewarding. You may meet someone who loves your all time, you know, favorite band. Maybe you are stuck on a date with someone who likes to eat off your dinner plate without asking you first. That's a no-no, by the way. As valentine's draws near this weekend, Laurie Segall has wild and weird confessions from people who took a chance with dating apps. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Talking to matches, I never thought I would be so entertained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never thought I would go on more than two dates.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never thought I would end up repeating myself so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think about genders (ph), you don't get what you expect.

Now, we went on the first date. He offered to make a picnic. And then for the second time he offered to go to the movies in the park. And again, we bring food. And then he asked me for a third date and again he makes food, it's really delicious. And then we start a conversation about restaurants and I said have you been here. And he said well, I haven't been to eat there, but I have been through their dumpster. What? And he said, yes, I'm a seasoned dumpster diver. You do really be amazed about all the different things people throw out. Groceries, sometimes fish heads. And then I realized what about food that I have eaten. And he said maybe carrots but don't worry, they were all organic. There was no protein.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So this guy starts talking to me and he said hey, so what brought you to online dating. I said I just got out of a really bad relationship, what about you? He said I just got out of prison. What? So I asked him how long he had been in prison. And he had been in prison for eight years. I know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got mashed up on him. Had the great date, walked me to my car, kiss me. I thought like wow, this is awesome, I love this app. Next day, I pull up his twitter and there is a play by play of his engagement, and that's 48 hours of we are engaged. There's pictures of the girl with the ring, congratulations from friends. I mean, there was no denying it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we go in for a kiss and lock lips and then some guys walking by, of course, and the dude shouted I really got to poof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is our anniversary, four years together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first time I met his parents, his dad asked me if I had ever done any computer dating. And I had never heard that term before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That what's we call it now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Funny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My deal breaker on tender was dudes with pictures with tigers. I don't know where all these dudes get pictures of tigers. It's just way too much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Using OK cupid is kind of like a buffet because there are a lot of options that are kind of like lukewarm.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Using tinder is meh because the men are meh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using tinder makes you realize exactly how universal like a kind of loneliness or like in search with meeting other people is. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just using OK Cupid. My faith in humanity has

--

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really gone downhill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Increased five-fold.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is about the same.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wavered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since using hinge, my faith in to marry has failed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's been restored.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Been questioned a bit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Faith in humanity has dipped. It's gone underground.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Laurie Segall. Can we go back to the woman who said she went on a date with a guy, checked his twitter the next day, there was a play by play of his engagement?

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: I died. I was listening to that, I was like oh, my goodness, you poor thing. I wished you so much good dating karma so much.

BALDWIN: Why do people -- I mean, it seemed like people want to talk about this stuff, the good, the bad and the ugly, right? They are opening up to you, talking about the online dating world.

SEGALL: I think it's fascinating, you know. First of all, if you go on a date that bad where you went on a date with a dumpster diver or realized the person you were on a date with just got out of prison after eight years, it's not going -- it didn't work out but you got to tell someone about it.

BALDWIN: It's such a good story. I love a good story.

SEGALL: You know, it is a good story. I think people are excited to come and share the good, the bad, the ugly, and I think this is kind of how so many people find love now. That's why we wanted to do this whole series. It's fascinating.

And I will say this. Our man Morgan Spurlock tonight actually plays matchmaker. He goes and he tries to set someone up which obviously see as, from all these stories, that's not so easy to do. And he is going to have that premiering tonight on his show, "INSIDE MAN."

BALDWIN: It is like there's a thing you can help be or hire a professional wing man. We were talking about that not too long ago. Can you imagine, though, let's say ultimately you really like the girl or the guy that you meet and you have to -- I would think you have to come clean eventually and say honey, I paid that person to make me look really good when we met. You know?

SEGALL: Well, and honestly, Brooke, I spoke to one person who actually gets paid a lot of money to do just that. One guy gets paid $200 to write people's profiles and like $30 an hour to actually go on someone's tinder and talk to people.

BALDWIN: What's the secret to a good profile?

SEGALL: You know, I actually asked (INAUDIBLE) tinder that. And what he said was honesty. I could say don't do any weird selfies. And as you heard from one of the women and confessionals, like stop putting pictures of yourself with tigers. I think that's kind of weird. But I think honesty and trying to be who you are might win out. I don't know.

BALDWIN: Maybe you like somebody with animals.

SEGALL: Maybe, I know.

BALDWIN: Whatever.

SEGALL: Whatever you're into.

BALDWIN: OK.

SEGALL: Maybe online, there is another option.

BALDWIN: We have more from you tomorrow. We will see you then.

Laurie Segall, ladies and gentlemen.

By the way, she mentioned Morgan Spurlock. Morgan Spurlock "INSIDE MAN" airs tonight at 9:00 eastern here on CNN.

We will see you back here same time, same channel tomorrow. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me. Let's go to Washington now. "The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.