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DR. DREW

Bobbi Kristina Brown In A Coma For Now 12 Days And What Happened To Her Is Now A Criminal Investigation; The American Sniper Trial; Chris Kyle`s Wife In Tears On The Stand; Bruce Jenner Using The Phone During The Accident Where A Woman Died

Aired February 11, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, Bobbi Kristina Brown in a coma for now 12 days. What happened to her is now a criminal investigation. Plus, the

American sniper trial. Chris Kyle`s wife in tears on the stand.

But, let us get started with the most tweeted story of the night. Whitney Houston died three years ago today from drowning. Daughter, Bobbi Kristina

Brown also now in a coma after drowning in a tub 12 days ago. Here is a look at what happened with moments from YouTube in "Lifetime."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: She was not breathing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: OK. But, she is breathing now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: I do not know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Today marks three years since that 911 call when Whitney Houston was found dead in a bathtub.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They had a great mother-daughter relationship. She wanted a child. She was blessed with Bobbi Kristina. And, she really,

really, really was her world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Can you do a little --

BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN, WHITNEY HOUSTON`S ONLY DAUGHTER: Not only does he want me to sing, but he also wants me to sing one of my mom`s songs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN MUSIC VIDEO CLIP)

WHITNEY HOUSTON, BOBBI KRISTINA`S MOM: From the moment I saw you, I went out of my mind. Oh, I never believed in love at first sight

(END MUSIC VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

BROWN: From the moment I saw you, I went out of my mind. I never believed in love at first sight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us Dr. Bill Lloyd, surgeon and pathologist, Spirit, psychotherapist; Leeann Tweeden, host of LA Today on AM570 Radio. Now,

Radaronline told Nancy Grace that there are a half a dozen people who know what happened in the hours before Bobbi Kristina was found unresponsive in

that bathtub.

We now know some information of what even had happened days before. We have audio of a 911 call from a week before Bobbi Kristina was found in

that tub. Take a listen.

(BEGI AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED 911 MALE DISPATCHER: 911, what us the location of your emergency?

RICK, ELLARD SECURITY: This is Rick at Ellard Security. I just had a neighbor call and report that there was, people hitting each other and

swinging and -- outside in front of their townhomes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, security guard did not give a description of the people or how many there were. But, Leanne, you got to wonder what was going on in

that household.

LEEANN TWEEDEN, HOST OF "L.A. TODAY" AM570 RADIO: Yes, Dr. Drew. You know, it is just so sad and tragic that it seems like there was a lot of

chaos in her --

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: -- you know, chaos within her family, within her love life. You hear about possible domestic violence. I mean who knows who it was in

front of the house. So, let us say it was them, right? Now, we find her unresponsive, face down in a pool of water.

One of the guys that was there in the house known drug user, known drug dealer. I mean it just seems like the people around her were not really

looking out for her best interests.

And, we are talking about a girl who was probably very vulnerable. Lost her mother at a very young age, still trying to find her identity. And,

the people that she was surrounding herself with were not very good people at all.

PINSKY: And, Spirit, this poor girl -- I mean -- this is a tragedy of sort of biblical proportions. But, she really had the cards stacked against her

from the beginning. We -- you and I, spoke recently about the fact that there was domestic violence between Bobby and Whitney that has been talked

about by Whitney.

And, now, of course, she recreates the chaos in her own personal life. This poor kid. Things were stacked against her from the beginning.

SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/TELEVISION HOST: Yes. You know it is really sad. She never had a chance.

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: And, what I tell people all the time is simply just reserve judgment. Little bit every day, Dr. Drew. A little more information, a

little more information, but we cannot connect the dots. It is too early to tell. And, none of that is changing Bobbi Kristina`s condition at this

point.

PINSKY: That is right.

CLANTON: So, we just have to just wait and relax and just be there for the family right now. That is where we need to have our hearts and minds.

PINSKY: We are hearing more issues -- more descriptions or concerns about criminal investigations. And, that is, again, part of the trickle of

information that is coming out. T.V. station, WAGA spoke to Bobbi Kristina`s aunt, Leola. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEOLA BROWN, BOBBI KRISTINA`S AUNT: There are so many signs showing us that she will be OK in spite of what people are saying over the internet.

Krisi is fine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Is there anything you can tell me about what she is doing? Opening her eyes or --

LEOLA BROWN: Yes. We know that she is opening her eyes. That is true. She is opening her eyes. And, there is a few more things that she is

doing, but Krissi is doing well right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Well, Dr. Lloyd, I am afraid I cannot accept just that simple a platitude. Let us do our bedside consult, my friend. Let us get in the

room. Let us look at what we know about this case.

This is a young adult in a coma now for 12 days. Some of it is medically induced, but when the coma is lightened up, she has generalized seizure,

which suggests diffused damage to all the higher brain functions and maybe irreversible damage.

We know that she has to be kept alive on a breathing machine, meaning she is functioning with this level of the brain, perhaps some of this because

of the medical induction. But, would not you agree, 12 days in a coma, she must aim, Dr. Lloyd, have a tracheostomy in place? Yes?

DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Well, no. She is breathing through a general endotracheal tube. There is no need for a tracheostomy

--

PINSKY: Well, no -- hang on.

DR. LLOYD: -- because she is simply goes out in the throat.

PINSKY: No. Not two weeks. You would erode her trachea. At a certain point you got to put a tracheostomy in.

DR. LLOYD: Good point.

PINSKY: So, at this point, she must have a tracheostomy, if the family would allow it.

DR. LLOYD: All right. You want to do the bedside exam when we are talking about Bobbi Kristina.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: We need to know if she is brain dead or not. This is where it is leading us up to. Enough discussion about medically induced coma.

People have gone five months with a medically-induced coma and got up and walked out of the hospital.

The medically-induced coma is there to lower pressure in the brain. So, when they lighten up the coma and she still has seizures, it means the

pressure is still too high.

PINSKY: Right.

DR. LLOYD: Go back to medication. She is breathing with a tube --

PINSKY: But, that is after hypoxic brain injury, if there is that kind of brain swelling, that is what we are talking about, the pressure is too

high, that is a terrible, terrible sign. Terrible.

DR. LLOYD: The final common pathway is brain dead. And, you do no need fancy equipment for that. That is a bedside exam. And, you look for

brainstem function --

PINSKY: Which she has.

DR. LLOYD: -- response to stimuli -- to determine if her pupils respond to light and various other eye exams that are done. It is an easy thing to do

to test her. Her breathing stimulus if that is there is well. If we find out that there is an issue with brain death, we might be want to talk about

organ donation.

PINSKY: Well, now you are hanging on the crepe. I am not saying that she is brain dead. You are the one jumping there. I am saying there is going

to be some sort of intermediate situation, which is why --

DR. LLOYD: OK. All right. All right.

PINSKY: Why we are preparing with the tracheostomy and the gastrostomy. There must be a gastrostomy tube in place now. She is being fed by a tube

for two weeks. You can only do it if there is astronomy tube for so long, then you have to make the plans for the longer term. I think you have a

patient --

DR. LLOYD: Real world medicine.

PINSKY: What is that?

DR. LLOYD: Real world medicine is called a multidisciplinary committee. And, there will be a group of physicians, utilization managers and

ethicists that will review this case.

PINSKY: Yes.

DR. LLOYD: If they find out that her prognosis is that bad, she is not functioning, she is not going to hang around Emory much longer. She will

then be transferred to a long-term skilled nursing facility.

PINSKY: That is right.

DR. LLOYD: And, it will probably happen on Bobbi Kristina`s nickel or her mother`s, actually.

PINSKY: It could happen. It could happen. I think that is one of the potential outcomes here. Leeann, you wanted to say something.

TWEEDEN: Well, you guys are just sort of talking over my head. What are you talking about when you are talking about the two things that has to be

done to her, Dr. Drew, because it has been two weeks?

PINSKY: That she has been on a breathing machine for two weeks, and if you leave the tube in for the breathing too long -- and by the way, she is a

drowning patient. She probably had pneumonia and sepsis. Who knows what else we are not hearing about, by the way.

You can only leave the tube in so long then you have to put a tracheostomy in. Once somebody that age or any age has been off food for a couple days,

you have to feed them.

And, that is an NG tubve and that can only go so long before you put a gastrostomy tube in, which is something that is placed into the stomach

through the abdominal wall. As you prepare for a long -- that is a gastrostomy tube right there. After you prepare for long-term recovery,

that is got to be what we are seeing there.

TWEEDEN: Can I ask you another question?

PINSKY: Yes. If we do not know this, but now that we know it is a criminal investigation, this is what the cops are saying. Is there a way

to tell -- and I know you guys are the doctors. Is there a way to tell if maybe she was injured physically because we know now that there was

injuries around her mouth, if she was hurt before she drowned?

PINSKY: I will tell you what. We will talk about that after the break. But, first we will hear in a few minutes from Bobby Brown`s sister and

nephew. And, later, the American sniper trial. Chris Kyle`s wife was in court today in tears. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Whitney`s only daughter is fighting for her life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY PRICE, R&B SINGER AND SONGWRITER: What she would want for her daughter would be to live and to thrive and to experience life at it`s

fullest. We still pray and we still hope, and we still believe that there is an opportunity for that to happen with Krissy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: We are just hoping that everybody just continue to pray for Krissy. That is all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: If I could not have a fully meaningful recovery, I would not wan to recover.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LLOYD: People have come out of medical comas. Doctors who work in that environment, this intensive care unit, have to sit with the family and

be pragmatic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Bill, Spirit, and Leaann. Spirit, was there ever a plan to discontinue life support today, the third anniversary of her mother`s

death? I do not think so. And, by the way, I am going to repeat what I said.

After two weeks in a coma from hypoxic brain injury, leave me alone. Leave me alone. I will come back and haunt anybody that kept me going after

that. But, go ahead, Spirit, answer that.

CLANTON: Well, see -- I am so different here. And, listening to you and the doctor go back and forth, I was so glad I was like, "Please, do not ask

me to speak," because I was almost in tears over here. I mean it just -- To hear all the things that this poor baby is going through.

PINSKY: Yes. It is terrible.

CLANTON: She just never had a chance.

PINSKY: It is terrible.

CALNTON: This is not an easy decision.

PINSKY: That is why I am saying, I would want to be left -- let it go, baby. Let us call it a day or see what happens without all the machines.

CLANTON: Yes. But, could you say that if it was your child, though? See, it is different when it is up but when it is our baby lying there, I mean -

- I do not think -- it is every parent`s worst nightmare, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Absolutely.

CLANTON: I could not imagine.

PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, I do not know about you, but I have been in this situation more times than I can count where I am trying to help families

come to terms with this, and it is excruciating.

DR. LLOYD: People say they want to pull the cord, if you will, on the anniversary of Whitney Houston`s death. It makes you think, well, you

know, women go to the hospital and plan their cesarean section so that their child has a specific birthday.

I do not want my baby born on Halloween for example, so let us do it a day early, whatever. So, it is so strange for family members to think, "Let us

have this child go back with her mother on the same anniversary date?" I do not know if it is such a wicked thought or not.

TWEEDEN: That kind of creeps me out, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Me, too, Leeann.

TWEEDEN: Because is not it true that if you pull the plug, it does not necessarily mean that they die right away.

PINSKY: That is right.

TWEEDEN: What if she died tomorrow and it did not work?

PINSKY: Listen.

DR. LLOYD: Oh, you missed it.

TWEEDEN: It is awful.

PINSKY: No. But, you guys, that is what I was sort of building for that last segment is that I was saying they are preparing -- they should be

preparing for a longer haul here and get her off the machines, see what you got. \

And, it means tracheostomy and gastrostomy and things like that while you prepare for intermediate care. Get her off some of the machines and

things. You got to do at some point and see what you got. I want to show you another quick interview at Entertainment Tonight who spoke to Bobby

Brown`s sister and nephew. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAYNE BROWN, BOBBY BROWN`S NEPHEW: Everybody is talking about the bickering and fighting that is going on between the family. At this time

right now, we are just -- a lot of emotions that is going on --

TINA BROWN, BOBBY BROWN`S SISTER: A lot.

SHAYNE: -- a lot is going on with the family, and we love each other. Family goes through things. But, just the family that we come from, it

just happens to be publicized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, he is right. And, Spirit, my concern is that there is so much going on amongst these people, the family members or what not that

they are not focusing on what is good for the patient, necessarily. They may be focusing on their issues in too personally and their pain. And,

this is always what troubles me when it is about us as opposed to about the patient. Spirit?

CLANTON: Yes. But, you know, that is what happens, Dr. Drew. When you have families who already have tension and now they are forced to now deal

with all their conflict and their frustrations over the bedside of the loved one and that is the only commonality between them --

I mean we see this time and time again in the hospital. And, that is why the doctors and the nurses, they just stay focused and say take that over

there. Let us focus on your loved one and that is where it has to be. We have to give these people the space. Everybody wants to know because we

feel like we own Bobbi Kristina because she is grown up in the public.

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: But she is not ours. We have to give the family space and let them go through this.

PINSKY: And, Leeann, do you know this guy, Nick Gordon, who -- he apparently not being allowed in the hospital room. You know, he is the guy

who said -- she called her husband but not the husband according to Bobby Brown. What I keep wondering is how did he get involved in the Brown`s

lives.

TWEEDEN: Well, I mean it is known now that when he was 12 that Whitney Houston took him in.

PINSKY: Why? Who was he? Whose son was he? Where is his mom and dad?

TWEEDEN: Exactly.

PINSKIY: What is going on here?

TWEEDEN: Where are his parents? I agree with you. I just think -- Who knows. I mean I do not even know what he did for a living. If he was her

husband or her boyfriend, how was he supporting himself?

I mean we know that she just got some part of her inheritance when she turned 21. So, she had some money. And, they had the freedom to do and

live kind of a life where they did not have to work and be responsible and be adults.

But, I mean , we are talking about a guy who was surrounding the woman he supposedly loved with another guy that was a known drug dealer, had a bad

past. And, he is in the house. She is face down in the water. I am starting to think that maybe she was beaten before she was even found face

down, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Well, OK. OK. OK. Leeann. Leeann --

CLANTON: I feel sorry for the guy. I am totally somewhere else with this, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: And, the thing is, you know, once we get older, we all act like we forgot what it was like to be young. This is young love and maybe it is

dysfunctional, maybe it is unhealthy.

TWEEDEN: Maybe?

(LAUGHING)

CLANTON: But, one thing that we do know -- maybe, because we are not in their relationship.

PINSKY: We are not there, but --

CLANTON: We are connecting too many dots.

PINSKY: But, again , he is --

CLANTON: One thing that we do know was that she was passionate about him, and he with her.

TWEEDEN: I do not know. She is in the hospital, passed out.

PINSKY: Yes. But, Spirit, they were claiming they were married. Bobby Brown says they are absolutely not and he is not welcome amongst the family

members at this time of crisis. That is a little telling.

TWEEDEN: All right, what does that tell you?

CLANTON: But, see, come on now, let us think about that. What that tells me, though, is, "Hey! We did not like you from the beginning. You have no

legal right here. So, now it is our opportunity to exercise this. We see this all the time with partners who are not married.

PINSKY: Yes. Well, right. But --

CLANTON: Let us be real about this.

PINSKY: But, I just see it where parents have a point. That is all I am saying. But, OK --

CLANTON: No. I have seen this with same sex couples whose parents are not happy about the fact of their child`s sexual orientation.

PINSKY: OK. I have seen that too.

CLANTON: I see this with boyfriends or girlfriends that parents do not like. Any time family members have the ability to come in and exercise

their authority in a situation, you see this time and time again. It is very common.

PINSKY: All right. Interesting.

TWEEDEN: If everything is fine, I will lay the case.

(CROSSTALKS)

CLANTON: Let us be honest here and let us give him some space.

PINSKY: Spirit, good point. Now, Leeann brought up the issue about any pre-existing evidence of having been roughed up before the drowning

incident. Dr. Lloyd, what we do know is that there was some evidence of some chest injuries like some ecchymosis about the chest, perhaps a tooth

loss.

Now, in my mind, that is just evidence of resuscitation. I mean this is where the chest compressions go. When they probably put an endotracheal

tube in the field in to get her to breath. They frequently will knock out -- not frequently, but they can knock teeth out when they are doing that.

Is that it? Or do you think we should characterize these as criminal?

DR. LLOYD: To date the information coming out of this case has been a trickle. And, until we have the facts, we cannot make any sound decisions.

There are three important questions that remain to be answered regarding this entire incident. First of all, was this girl conscious or unconscious

when she hit the water? Next --

PINSKY: Can you tell that?

DR. LLOYD: What are the results of the emergency room toxicology?

PINSKY: Can we tell?

DR. LLOYD: Which she came in unconscious. You know, they did the toxicology.

PINSKY: Wait, Dr. Lloyd. How do we tell if she is conscious or unconscious when she hits the water?

TWEEDEN: Right.

PINSKY: By what she breathes in?

DR. LLOYD: Is there any water in her lungs? I know that there was a report that she coughed up water when they pulled her out. But, there is a

big difference between having a little water in the mouth and a whole lot of water in your lungs.

PINSKY: Yes. Right.

DR. DREW: They can establish whether she was breathing before or after she hit the water. The E.R. toxicology, did she get a dose of Narcan? It is

medical records. We can find that out.

And, finally, how long did she actually go without taking a breath? Again, the magic 6 minutes or was it much longer than that? When we have those

facts, we can dispense with the drama and move on with the right choices for her.

PINSKY: I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, we may have trouble zeroing in on that 6 minutes. My suspicion is it is quite a bit

longer than that, but we do not know that. If we find that to be true, that is the point that we begin to try to help the family deal with their

grief and take the proper care of the patient.

Prepare for a long haul or what maybe a short haul to something really unpleasant. Again, I am with Spirit that we just cannot imagine how

excruciating it must be for the likes of Bobby Brown. This is his daughter. Do not forget that.

Next up, "American Sniper" story. It picks up with the movie left off. We will go inside the trial of Chris Kyle`s killer.

And, later, was Bruce Jenner using the phone during the accident where a woman died? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRADLEY COOPER, AS CHRIS KYLE, IN THE FILM "AMERICAN SNIPER": I am willing to meet my creator and answer for every shot that I took.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER, AS CHRIS KYLE: Do not pick it up. Drop it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASH LEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The sequel to that blockbuster may actually be playing out for real right now in a Texas courtroom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Eddie Ray Routh, he killed two men, men who wanted to help him. The question is why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. TIM MOORE, EDDIE RAY ROUTH`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When he took their lives, he was in the grip of a psychosis. A psychosis so severe at that

point in time that he did not know what he was doing was wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. ALAN NASH, ERATH COUNTY ATTORNEY: But, he admits that he murdered these two men, that he used drugs and alcohol that morning and that he knew

what he was doing was wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: There is no question about who killed the "American Sniper," Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield. The question facing the jury tonight

is did the gunman, Eddie Ray Routh, know it was wrong. CNN Correspondent, Martin Savidge, is following the trial in Texas. He joins us on the phone.

Martin, first witness was Kyle`s wife. The jury also saw some terrible photos of the crime scene. How did they react?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Taya Kyle was extremely emotional. And, you could tell that the jury was riveted by every word that she had to

say. It began, of course, with her just talking about how the two met, their lives together, the children and everything that makes up what

appeared to be a wonderful relationship that the two had.

And, then they begin to talk about the day, the day he died, the last day that his wife got to see her husband. And, she commented that it started

off like any normal Saturday. But, then began to say that after the two of them had said good-bye, things began to change.

She called her husband a couple of hours later when he was out at the shooting range. And, it was then she noted something very strange in his

voice. He was not the usual charismatic self. He was just odd.

And, she said it sounded like he wanted to say more but because of someone nearby he could not. He ended the conversation and it turns out that was

the last time the two spoke. So, it was just a really emotional kind of testimony that she gave.

PINSKY: So tragic. Martin, thank you so much for that report. Let us bring in our behavior bureau, Jessie Jane Duff, Gunnery Sergeant U.S.

Marine Corps (Ret.), Senior Fellow with the London Center for Policy Research. Adam Kokesh, Iraq War Veteran, YouTube Star; Leeann Tweeden.

Jessie, I want to -- I guess I will start with you. Insanity is particularly problematic defense in Texas. He has a bunch of things

stacked against him, including that he smoked pot and drank that morning. Do you feel that is relevant?

(LAUGHING)

JESSIE JANE DUFF, GUNNERY SERGEANT U.S. MARINE COPRS (RET.): It is absolutely relevant.

PINSKY: You are laughing.

DUFF: Yes. It is absolutely relevant. Here comes his defense attorney trying to say my client is insane. However, he was smoking weed laced with

other drugs and taking shots of whiskey before he voluntarily left with these men who he felt threatened by.

It is a contradiction itself. If you get a DUI and you kill somebody while you are under the influence, you are still held accountable. So, do not

try to push the insanity on me when you have altered yourself and your state of mind. And, if he is actually a victim of PTSD or has PTSD, he is

probably on some form of medication that also says do not use these -- use alcohol or drugs.

PINSKY: Right.

DUFF: So, to me it is a complete contradiction.

PINSKY: Now, the defense attorney also brought up a text message exchange, which if you have not heard about this, it was interesting, between Chris

Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield.

They were driving to the gun range with Eddie Ray Routh in the backseat behind him. There it is. Chris Kyle`s text, "This dude is straight up

nuts." Littlefield responds -- they are sitting next to each other. "He`s right beside me. Watch my six."

Adam, does this help this guy`s defense or does the substances we have been discussing adult rate even the fact that they knew he was out of his mind

that morning?

ADAM KOKESH, IRAQ WAR VETERAN/YOUTUBE STAR: Well, I think when you go through the process of joining the military and going through all that,

which is, in and of itself, an act of either cowardice, ignorance, greed or insanity, in and of itself.

You understand the idea of moral agency taking responsibility for your actions. So, it really does not matter. He did it. He knows he did it.

Whether it was right or wrong, he is a threat to society, and that needs to be addressed.

PINSKY: Leeann, there is a lot packed into what he just said. I wonder if you want to respond to that.

TWEEDEN: Yes -- No. I think he is right. I think this guy knew exactly what he was doing. I think -- if we go back and look at his history, he

has been a troubled man for a long time. I do not think the excuse of PTSD is even valid here.

Sure maybe he did have some PTSD. I do not eve think when he was deployed he was outside of the wire. So, I know a lot of my friends who have seen

combat, up close and personal, do not even like to call people that have PTSD that have been inside the war, because it kind of -- it maybe takes

away from other people who really have it, who really need the help.

And, even one of my friends, who is attached to Navy S.E.A.L. teams and who knew Chris Kyle said, "Look, if you look at who has PTSD, if you did not

attach a disability payment to it by the VA, only probably 2 percent of the people out there really have PTSD that need to get help." I think this guy

was mentally ill long before he joined the marines. Look at his history. Terrible, terrible history.

PINSKY: And, I do not want to minimize the severity of mental illness. Adam, you packed a lot into the statement you just made. You said anybody

who goes into the military, I think you said, has mental illness.

KOKESH: No. Joining the military, itself, is either an act of ignorance, cowardice, greed, or insanity.

PINSKY: Hold on. Stop.

DUFF: I do not agree with that at all.

PINSKY: Jessie, go ahead. Go ahead.

DUFF: I do not agree.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Jessie?

KOKESH: Well, it is about moral responsibility here. And, for people trying to say like that Routh is not responsible because he had PTSD or he

was a combat veteran, you know what? It is the same argument they use for the troops, and the great atrocities there committed abroad in the name of

freedom, you know?

But, just following orders or I had PTSD or I was lied to by the government, those are not excused for killing children, for torturing

people, for making enemies faster than we can kill them in these wars.

PINSKY: Jessie.

DUFF: OK. I find it very insulting that you have come to the conclusion on why I joined. There was one element you missed. Pride. Pride and

honor in my country. There was no cowardice and yet there was no sense of -- it is pride.

KOKESH: The pride is an ignorance sin.

DUFF: Do not determine from the rest of us. The second things is 7.7 million Americans have PTSD. This is not isolated to the military and it

is not insanity. It is an anxiety disorder.

It is also associated with stress and over compulsion. So, there are many degrees of PTSD. And, many people do not understand what PTSD actually is.

7.7 million Americans have it. So, let us get that off the table.

TWEEDEN: And, PTSD also does not make you want to kill your brother unarmed.

DUFF: Absolutely.

PINSKY: It can make you do something terrible and impulsive in a flashback. But, people riding next to you in a car are not going to say,

"Hey, there is something weird about this guy. I am scared. Watch my back." That is something else. The debate over Chris Kyle`s killer

continues.

And, later, new details in Bruce Jenner`s car accident. The 911 call from that day has been revealed. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The two men were trying to help Routh cope with his post- traumatic stress disorder after the war. When Routh allegedly shot them, dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. MOORE: He had killed them before they could kill him, and that he was going to take their souls before they could take his soul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. NASH: Mental illness, even the ones that this defendant may or may not have, do not deprive people of the ability to be good citizens, to know

right from wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. MOORE: Chris Kyle was sitting in the driver`s seat on his telephone, and he texts Chad Littlefield sitting right next to him, he texts him,

"This dude is straight up nuts."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Jesse, Adam and joining us Anneelise Goetz, Attorney. I want you to hear, all of you, from Chris Kyle`s wife when she was asked

about PTSD and using PTSD as a murder defense. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAYA KYLE, CHRIS KYLE`S WIFE: I think what it does that makes me feel very, very protective for people who legitimately have PTSD, because we

know a lot of them, they are wonderful people. They serve in justice- related fields. They have huge hearts, so when something traumatic happens, they can suffer from it.

But, It does not change their character. They carry guns. They love their families. They might be moody. They might lose sleep, but it does not,

absolutely does not, 100 percent does not turn you into a cold-blooded killer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Adam, do you agree with Chris Kyle`s wife?

KOKESH: Absolutely. But, let us step back for a second and look at the bigger problem of militarism. I just want to point out that Gunny here

when -- in the last segment was confronted with a statement she did not like, instead of responding rationally, responded emotionally.

And, that is really behind the idea of joining the military in the first place. There is a lot of emotion. There is a lot of propaganda. There is

a lot of misleading young people. And, it really is insanity to think that it is going to help our country to go and kill for politicians, to be brave

and fight the threat of terrorism when the big threat is government here at home.

PINSKY: Jessie, respond.

DUFF: Well, I find that ludicrous. I did not respond emotionally. I did respond rationally. I did join for pride. And, you did not include that

in your statement. So, just keep that in mind.

With this said about PTSD, again, 7.7 million Americans have PTSD. It is not isolated to the military. And, with this said, this man, Routh, also

has been identified to have psychiatric issues, probably completely separate from PTSD.

And, I hope it is identified. But, in order for him to get off due to insanity, he is going to have to demonstrate that he did not know the

difference. Because the state of Texas is very clear about that.

PINSKY: Yes.

DUFF: In your insanity claim, you have to not know the difference.

PINSKY: OK. Right. And, I want to show you what he did. Anneelise, since you are the attorney, I am going to have you respond to this. After

the shootings, Routh stole Chris Kyle`s truck, confessed to his sister who then called 911.

When the police came, he led them on a brief chase before surrending and confessing. He seemed to know he done something wrong and took multiple

actions in response to understanding that the rest of us perceived he had done something wrong.

ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: I think that definitely the prosecution is going to hit on that. But, what we are really going to target, what we are

going to look at is what was his state of mind when the murder happened, when the crime happened.

Now, the prosecutor is going to look at this and say, "Well, look what he did afterwards." And, this is fair game, it is fair game in Texas. They

can say, "did he flee the scene?" He might have fled the scene. We know he left. Did he leave because he was he was scared or because he was done

with his firing range time? I mean he might have just left. Did he evade the cops?

PINSKY: Yes.

GOETZ: Well, he went to his sister --

PINSKY: He did.

GOETZ: He went to his sister`s house and was talking about the voices and someone speaking to him soul and he could smell the pigs and just crazy

talk. And, then he confessed to the murder.

So, I think that if you look at all those pieces, I think it buttresses the argument he was not in the right mind, that he did not know right from

wrong. And, that when he went to his sister`s house, he was talking about the fact --

PINSKY: I think you are doing a disservice, Anneelise, to people who have mental illness, to people who have PTSD, because they do not go around

killing people and that they do not run away. If they really think that the devil is after them, they talk about the devil being after them or that

somebody -- they killed the devil in somebody else.

They did a good thing. They did not run away from the police. And, when they come to and realize they done something, sometimes they tear their

hair out, realizing that they were distorted. He did none of those things. He showed no remorse but fled.

KOKEHS: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Jessie.

DUFF: But, his psychotic episode may have actually been over by that point in time.

PINSKY: Not what you just described the voices -- the voices and all the psychotic symptoms, that is not over.

GOETZ: But, you have to agree with me when he was hearing voices and smelling pigs, that --

PINSKY: That is psychotic.

GOETZ: That is a psychotic. So, that furthers the argument. This guy was not in his right mind, that he really understand right from wrong. I do

not think he did. You have all kinds of doctors saying he was a threat to society and they released him anyway.

PINSKY: Listen. I am not going to give a pass to the system. I am telling you what. And, by the way, the system is not just flawed. The

system is -- talk about smelling pigs, it is haunt time. Doctors cannot do their job because there is no resources there.

KOKESH: I dealt with that myself, if I may, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Please tell me.

KOKESH: I ran a peer support group for veterans with PTSD when I got back from Iraq. And, when you go through the military experience, you go

through combat, you come home and you are really confused about what is right or wrong because politicians and commanders have been filling your

head with lies. And, so, dealing with PTSD, positively, through talk therapy --

DUFF: In my goodness.

KOKESH: -- increases a sense of right and wrong. It is a great discovery process for a lot of people. And, I would say that most veterans who come

home and deal with their PTSD in a rational way by talking it out, and getting in touch with their experiences, coming face to face with the

crimes they committed, the moral transgressions, they get a better sense of right and wrong.

PINSKY: It is a little more complicated now, but you are right to some extent. Jessie, I am going to give you the last word here. Let me just

say, for the record.

DUFF: OK.

PINSKY: I do not like people flying planes into buildings. And, I am grateful that people go out there and help defend us. So, what do we do at

the right way or wrong way?

KOKESH: Hold on. That is not true, either, Drew. Drew, you know -

PINSKY: Listen, I do not want to argue about why it happened or should it happen --

(CROSSTALKS)

KOKESH: No. No. No.

DUFF: It is my turn.

PINSKY: I am grateful that somebody is trying to --

DUFF: It is my turn.

PINSKY: Adam, I m going to hold you -- turn his mic off. Turn his mic off. Jessie, I want to give you a chance to say the final word here.

DUFF: Thank you. It is my turn.

PINSKY: Wait, wait. Not that I would not want to hear from Adam. It is just that I do not have time. And, I just want to say, I am grateful that

people are out there -- I do not know if it is right or wrong, how they do it or when they do it or who chooses to do it. I am just grateful that

somebody -- well, I am not a politician. Last word, Jessie.

DUFF: This is what it boils down to. I mean I served 20 years. And, I am sorry that his experience was that everybody filled his head with lies. I

am here to attest that, that was not my experience as a United States Marine. So, that on itself is a faulty argument.

Because, that was his experience, not my own. With that also said, if we are going to say this guy was crazy, he was also under the influence of

drugs and alcohol. So, we do not know what his state of mind was, because he was not sober. He willingly took those drugs.

PINSKY: I do not think the drugs were a big issue. What I think is that he is somebody that you are right did know to take a substance but he might

have been seeking relief of PTSD symptoms as sometimes people do when they have severe PTSD, but they do not kill people. Sometimes they have a

flashback and do aggressive things that they regret very quickly.

People were psychotic, cannot think things are a certain way that cause them to do violent things. Generally, this is where people get very upset

with people like me in mental health and go, you are excusing these horrible actions. But, generally, this is where people get very upset with

people like me in mental health and go, how you excusing, you are excusing this horrible actions.

And, generally, people got to get help for their mental illness if they are prone to violence. Jessie said this guy was documented as somebody who

could be violent. Get help before you hurt somebody. If it is afterwards, it is really going to be on the legal system then it is a sad, sad day.

Many people are hurt. I think this guy is goig to go down for this. We will be watching this case.

Next up, could suspended license and cell phones be contributing factors to the accident, which Bruce Jenner was involved? We will look at it after

this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE JENNER, EX-HUSBAND OF KRIS JENNER: I feel probably safer in the airplane than I do in the car. Cars are not going the other directions,

you know, at 50, 60 miles an hour.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. PHILIP BROOKS, COASTAL HIGHWAY SHERIFF: It appears Bruce Jenner was involved in a rear-end of a vehicle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We hear that allegedly that he is going through the transition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. BROOKS: When it struck the Lexus, the Lexus went into oncoming traffic which struck the southbound H2 Hummer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I know that Bruce is feeling really bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He was towing a dune buggy, and there were paparazzi following him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I feel really bad for Bruce.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with tonight`s celebrity behavior segment. Joining us Samantha Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu! Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist,

Professor at Pepperdine University and Anneelise Goetzs.

New tonight, a picture of Bruce Jenner just surfaced taken yesterday showing him talking on a cell phone while driving. Illegal in California.

But, Sam, he was just involved in a fatal accident. I know -- I literally think about this accident any time I am distracted in any way in a vehicle

now. And, that was just three days later nowhe is caught doing this.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU!: Yes. Well, here is the thing, Dr. Drew. I think maybe bad habits, it takes a while to get rid of

them. I do not know. I feel bad for Bruce here. He is being followed 24/7.

They are just waiting, waiting for him to pick up a cell phone or do something where they can capture that photo and sell it. I do not think it

is right he is on phone. But, let us remember here, we are all guilty, all of us, of doing something that distracts us while we are driving.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

SCHACHER: Whether that be fiddling with the GPS, whether that be on our phone, whether that be checking in the mirror, whatever that may be. And,

yes, he was just in an accident a few days ago. That, unfortunately, cause somebody her life. But, we do not know if he was on the phone.

We do not know if he was doing everything possible to prevent himself from running into that Lexus. That is also being investigated, Dr. Drew. But,

cannot we give him a little bit benefit of the doubt here?

PINSKY: I do feel bad -- listen. I feel terrible for him, but three days later on the phone. I got Dax Holt from TMZ. Do you have anything to

update us here?

DAX HOLT, TMZ REPORTER (via phone): Well, you know, we have a big story about cops are able to get their hands on a video taken seconds after the

impact. And, this is a huge crucial piece of evidence for them. Because what they are trying to do is look at the video and find out what happened,

what the chain of events were.

Why this Prius was stopped on PCH. Whether or not there was a line of cars after the light or whether this Prius was stopped about to do an illegal

turn or if there was another reason this Prius was stopped that caused kind of the chain of events.

So, they are looking over that. One thing that this video does show was that he was not being chased by paparazzi at the time of the accident,

which the Jenner family, you know, source told us the day of the crash that he was being chased and that is what caused the accident. But, this video

is a big, big deal to law enforcement right now.

PINSKY: And, it is on the site now?

HOLT: No, no. We do not have the video. We know they have the video. So, police have this in their hands and they are going over it.

PINSKY: Thanks, Dax. Judy, do you have any insight into why he would, you know, would not be more fastidious after something horrible like this?

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I do, Dr. Drew. I think it is his way of actually trying to disengage in the situation. The more you

normalize something, the more you do not have to take responsibility.

PINSKY: What?

HO: And, maybe he does not want to take responsibility right now, Dr. Drew. It is a way for us -- you know, how there is actually a lot of

research about this that if you use -- over use a scare tactic, even in advertising --

PINSKY: Yes?

HO: -- people just disengage. They do not want to think about those things.

PINSKY: Yes. Right. Right. That is true.

HO: I feel like this is a very similar thing here.

PINSKY: So, this is telephone reforemadness? Is that what we are talking about her, that people overstating HIV risk or something and the telephone

now is becoming the current object of this? All right, listen, I got to take a quick break. I want to keep this conversation going.

Next, where is Jenner`s family in all this? We have not heard from them, but we are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: 911 Emergency. What are you calling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: A car accident. Major car accident. There looks like there is about three cars in -- it is right on PCH.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: Are there any injuries?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: I am just passing by. We are jus stopped. I am going to say yes. It looks pretty bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: Three vehicles?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: At least three. It could be more. A fire department just pulled up. Yes, one car is destroyed.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: That 911 call was just obtained by TMZ. We are back with Sam, Judy and Anneelise. And our celebrity behavior segment, we are talking

about Bruce Jenner and new details about this weekend`s motor vehicle accident.

The driver in the Prius is a 29-year-old woman and apparently, her license had been suspended back in 2013. Anneelise, do the facts about this driver

having had suspended license and the victim, the woman who died also had a suspended license, does that change the liability in this case?

GOETZ: Well, it is not going to change the liability as to whether they acted negligently. We are talking about the negligent homicide, which we

might be looking at here. They are going to look at what were their actions were on that day, not necessarily had they done their paperwork.

So, no, I do not think that will impact this actual case. That being said, these are situations that prosecutors love to make a case out of, to make a

headline out of. If you remember, Britney Spears, she drove with a suspended license and had a five-day jury trial over it.

SCHACHER: Yes.

GOETZ: So, I think that they are likely actually going to see a fine, a ticket, because it has come to light that they were driving when they

should not have been. But, it will not impact the criminal investigation.

PINSKY: And, Sam, we have not seen him with any of the family members since this happened and really -- since his transformation. Interesting, I

talked to Dr. Renee Richards today. And, she was saying, Sam, that she thought he was doing a pretty good job of transitioning and helping us all,

come to terms with it slowly.

SCHACHER: Yes. It seems like he had that he definitely have that all in mind, Dr. Drew. He was sensitive not only about his family but even the

public eye. It seems to be calculated but in a loving way. I do not want to make that sound like that it was just solely selfish and strategic.

But, again, this guy is going through a lot right now. We do not even know if he was responsible for anything. We do not know if -- come on, when we

drive down the PCH, everybody is following so closely behind one another.

GOETZ: Right.

SCHACHER: Let us say that first Prius did slammed on the break and then, boom, the Lexus slammed on the brake. Who knows if he did not have enough

time to even think about what was going on. So, I do not think we have any right to judge him before we find out all the details from the police.

PINSKY: Yes. And, I am not judging him. Judy, I just have to wonder, if not just the psychological aspects of all he is going through, but whether

some of the hormones could have change his concentration or just have a subtle change that he was not aware of to set him up for something that he

would not have otherwise gotten involved in.

SCHACHER: Interesting.

HO: That is a great point, Dr. Drew. And, I do not think he is even aware of all of the types of side effects he could be having, because everybody

has a really different response to these hormone treatments. And, depending on his health and exercise, there could be other responses that

are interactions, too.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: So, there is a lot he is dealing with right now. I think it is great what Sam said that we should not pass judgment. Let us just wait and see

what the investigation says. In the meantime, I fully support what he is doing and just hope that he is getting some love and help and support from

his family and friends.

PINSKY: Yes, and hopefully, he will not have had much to do with this unfortunate series of events, whether or not his medication -- if it was

involved whether or not, we will never know. Please DVR us and you can watch anytime. Of course, the "Forensic Files" begins immediately

following this show. In fact, it starts right now.

END